Doubt remains over Raikkonen’s title as McLaren appeal
Kimi Raikkonen is champion for now but the F1 world is waiting to hear the outcome of an appeal by the McLaren-Mercedes team.
McLaren have appealed against the stewards’ decision not to exclude the BMW and Williams drivers from yesterday’s Brazilian Grand Prix.
The stewards found that there was not enough evidence to prove that the cars in question used fuel that was cooler than the regulations allow, despite it being recorded on several occasions that the minimum limit was exceeded during pit stops.
The odds are stacked against McLaren however.
The International Court of Appeal may choose to reject their submission. Even if it goes to the appeal court, choosing to change the order of the race and by doing so change the identity of the world champion would be an extraordinarily controversial decision.
Photo: Ferrari media
Related links
- Raikkonen keeps title as BMW & Williams cleared
- Investigation could jeopardise Raikkonen’s title
- Kimi Raikkonen finally wins the F1 title
- Brazilian GP 2007 review: Raikkonen champion by a point
Tags: f1 / formula one / formula 1 / grand prix / motor sport
Damn! I wanted so badly to stick a fork in this season already, but I guess we’ll have to wait.
Well, I still do believe that BMW and Williams still have to be punished for their infringement.
So I will repeat it again: they should do what they did back in 1995. Punish the teams (and dock their points), but not the drivers (who keep theirs). 1995 was also a fuel violation, remember.
And seeing that McLaren has already had such a punishment this year, it wouldn’t be such a stretch for the FIA to decide this way.
BMW should be punished for that for those of you said everything goes hamiltons way it did’nt this time cheating b…..ds!i hope mclaren appeal but it would a shame for lewis to win ch’ship in this way,can’t wait for next year already.
Apparently McLaren’s motivation for appealing is that they want to know how someon can break the rules and not be punished.
Firstly, this is incredibly hypocritical of McLaren seeing as they broke the rules this year and, in the eyes of many, have not been suitably punished.
Secondly, there is no proof that Williams or BMW actually did break the rules - the stewards have said that they do not know exactly what the ambient temperature was, thus they do not know what 10 degrees less than ambient temp was, and thus they do not have a reference value to check legality. Hence it is impossible to tell whether BMW or Williams’ fuel temps were 10 degrees less than ambient.
Yup, I’m a big fan of Lewis, but this is no way to win a title, I’m sure that Kimi will still be the Champ after this appeal.
Well we have to ask the question,Is the problem skin type!!!!
D Hopkinson (white)
No proof was found that mclaren cheated either!It’s double standards punish mclaren but when somebody else breaks the rules lets them get away with it cheating is cheaing
Derek - what on earth are you talking about?
so explain this when ferrari won in australia in an ILLEGAL car why were’nt they punished 1 set of rules for ferrari and another set for everyone else!
Everyone take a deep breath, look at the facts this season and in the end McLaren have to thank the stars that they weren’t disqualified altogether. Yes, maybe Ferrari had an illegal car, but then again the only way for McLaren to know that was because they had the information they got, and used, from Ferrari which is why they launched the appeal at the time.
Now is McLaren really appeal the fuel decision now that’s just really bad sportsmanship, how about they just let it rest, as everyone’s pointed out, the chances for them to actually achieve anything, let alone win the drivers title, are ridiculously slim. If they do it, then it’s just to **** everyone off. Let it rest, Ron, you’ve already lost a lot of your reputation this season…
Alonso is a back-stabbing traitor ron will be glad to see the back of him!
Can everyone please remember this is a forum for discussing F1, not for throwing insults at people. I have deleted several comments that violate the Comment Policy for breaking this rule.
Alonso, and Pedro de la Rosa had to give that info tio FIA, or if proven they will loose theres SUPER licences
Oh, ANOTHER LWEIS FAN, don’t get your hopes up too much, it seems that everyone is sure that Alonso will leave. Alonso is a very good driver and McLaren can’t get anyone close to the same level to replace him. If McLaren can sort it out with Alonso they will, I’m sure of that as Alonso will just harm them more if he’s somewhere else. And to put all the pressure on Hamilton wouldn’t be very smart at all, he’s shown in the last two races that he can’t deal with it at this moment, maybe he will in the future, but he definitely cracked under pressure twice.
Michael K, I just don’t see it happening. Alonso hasn’t been trying to get closer to McLaren, he’s been walking further away from them. And it has been Alonso, not McLaren, who’s been heard more to be in contact with other teams. And if there’s one thing McLaren learned yesterday, it’s that F1 is a TEAM sport.
I am having to chuckle with some of the comments above and in some other threads i have read. Many are referencing Albert Park, Australia and how ferrari should have been docked points.
And dare i say it typically from lewis fans….. i get the impression that as most of the lewis fans ( new to the sport) are unafmiliar with the result back in march.
If Kimi had been demoted etc, Alonso would be champion now..
1 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:25:28.770
2 F. Alonso McLaren + 7.242
3 L. Hamilton McLaren + 18.595
I suppose i would suggest that we should be careful of what we ask for. or at least be aware of the implications.
I am an Alonso fan, but vey happy that kimi won the championship. ( well deserved racing driver).
In hindsight with the points being so tight in the end it looks like Hungary had more to play in the final championship result than we might have anticipated then.I
am still of the opinion that Alonso was hard done by in his penalty, especially on a track that is difficult to overtake on. (irrespective of whom was at fault at mclaren, or to be specfic whom was at fault first ………..:-)
You have to look at it from Alonso’s perspective as well, there doesn’t seem to be another team to be able to compete with Ferrari other than McLaren. Of course he will contact everyone, this will just help to raise his value should McLaren try to keep him, which I think they will. He will try to get a better status than Hamilton, as he did all year, but McLaren can’t really give him that. They will try and sort it out with a multitude of incentives, I’m sure, maybe some sort of arrangement which really gives him the control of his own tactics. Of course the Hamilton camp won’t be happy with any of it. Whatever the outcome of this sorry saga, McLaren will loose, they already did this year, as you pointed out Journeyer.
If Alonso wants a big payday in the obscurity of mid-table action, he could go to Toyota, but I don’t think he would do that. If he goes back to Renault it must be because of Flavio, who undoubtedly will use all his player-pimp-charm to get him back, but I don’t think this would help him at all…
The Court of Appeal may even reject McLaren appeal, and that would be the end of it. But I don’t think they will.
The probable outcome (and what I’m hoping to happen) is that constructors points wil be deducted from Williams and BMW that they would have earned in Brazil, but the drivers keep their points.
To change the order of the race and make Lewis champion would be F1 into disrepute yet again this season. If Lewis was to win the championship, he should have done it on the track, not in the courtroom.
As tacky as this sounds, I predicted that the WDC would be decided in the courts this year (but because of Stephney-gate, not this) let’s hope I’m wrong.
To,
another lewis fan!
This is to explain to all who want to understand why Ferrari was not docked points or penalized in any other form. The rules were ambiguous, which were later clarified by FIA and amended upon production of facts by McLaren(of course they used the Ferrari dossier, which perhaps explains, their enhanced pace from Malaysia onwards. McLaren WAS SLOWER IN MELBOURNE, PERIOD). Just like Renault which lost future use of the Mass Damper, Ferrari had to modify their car, which perhaps explains their form(rather the lack of it, right after Melbourne). Now that we understand the situation better, we perhaps could look forward to the future(2008) and hope LH is as good as he is advertised to be.
From a disgusted F1 fan, who knows a fair bit!
Im really surprised anyone thinks Alonso might stay at Mclaren. Ron would have to be mad or extremely naive to think he can successfully manage these two drivers after what happenned this year, esp Alonso blackmailing him. As for the championship result, I can only imagine that someone up there ensured justice was served, since the people down here couldnt do so.
Well, McLaren have just lost the last shred of respect I had for them. This is sickening.
Even if they were disqualified, though, would Lewis be given the extra points? No-one was given McLaren’s points…
In Mclaren’s defense, they did not appeal any of the penalties handed to them this year, neither in hungary, nor the MASSIVE FINE. I do not think they want thier driver to win a championship in this way. My only surprise is that, the FIA has only created another mess for itself. And its unlikely they will reverse the drivers championship, especially now
ferrari has won it.
Regardless of the eventual outcome, no one can say it hasn’t been an interesting season. There have been more twists and turns in the sport to rival a best selling novel.
I think Raikkonen deserves to win. I think both Alonso and Lewis will be stronger moving forward having both missed the championship this year.
Perhaps the teams need to take stock of where they are and come back fighting even stronger next year.
I think Vinny Jone’s line from gone in 60 seconds is apt, “it’s been emotional,” Roll on 2008.
Kirk,
There is a difference between a disqualification and an exclusion.
Just to clarify, there have been several occasions in the past where drivers and teams have been disqualified from races and the drivers behind them moved up the order and taking their points. For example, when BAR were disqualified at Imola in 2005, and when the Williams and Toyotas were disqualified at Montreal in 2004.
keith your comment 12 explains a lot - sorry about my comments and lets hope that kimi retains title as we have had enough bickering about rules and regs - coming second in youre first year is no mean achievment for hamilton - so lets look forward to next year
Why can’t McLaren just give it up, this season has already been sabotaged by Spygate and yet another appeal is the last thing F1 needs right now.
Alan - that’s a very mature attitude to have - if only McLaren thought the same way you do!
to vertigo - thanks for that - but hope all enjoy a good break and well next years not that far away - soon be practise and testing sessions to come!!
sorry to change subject but was wondering is anybody else having difficulty accessing itvf1 site cant get to come up at all,used to be able to dont know whats wrong with it advice would be appreciated
Oliver and Keith, thanks for clarifying that. I knew there had been instances of both but couldn’t remember…
another lewis fan - the ITV F1 site generally doesn’t work, in the past two weeks it has just been doing what it wants, so give it some time and it might sort itself out.
Talking of ITV, 10 million people watched the race on Sunday - I wonder how many of them could name an F1 driver other than Lewis?
To Oliver!
You seem to be a McLaren fan. I can understand, that it is frustrating, however, McLaren had shot themselves in the foot, head and wherever not! Hungary DQ was due anyways. They ran an illegal gearbox(no crash test was performed for the new part). If they petitioned, they would have lost Driver’s Championship points as well, with which in retrospect they chose for the better of that(petition). Ron is rather thoughtful, trust me.
Spygate was rather obvious i’d think, Mosley(check on Formula1.com) just commented that McLaren had Ferrari information all along even before the season began. They really had no footing, to go ahead and ask FIA to reconsider, as Ron would have known, as Mosly opined in his latest interview, the one which i referred to earlier, that he would have had rather seen the back of McLaren & it’s drivers for 2007. Just as well, with sanction for McLaren in 2008.
I understand your passion, sentiment, however, let logic prevail.
Also about BAR’s DQ in 2005 was more due to fuel delivery system(fuel tank design) to be precise. DQ of Williams in Montreal in 2004 was due to larger than regulation brake pads(Ralf’s interview to F1racing in the following month’s issue clarifies). Do not know about the Toyota DQ however, did not hear much about it. But i guess there must have been some dirt on them, which is why the DQ. Do not forget, even Schu was docked a seasons points for foul play(1997), then think Monaco, 2006.
However, it is rather becoming obvious that LH can get away with what ever he does. No proof to the contrary, as yet! In-fact, Fuji(erratic driving behind safety car), Quali in Brazilian GP(extra tyre set, and getting away with blocking Raikkonen on hot lap) in Brazil only add up to the theory.
This is for all you LH supporters. Alonso was only spared in spygate as Lewis would have to be docked just as well. This was not a situation that they(council) wanted, as English press was holding FIA hostage. They bent over backwards to save some negative press. It is rather disparaging to see such petulant behavior from eminent journalists, even reputed ones as such of the F1Racing magazine et all.
Mosley wanted to dock them both. Guess what went wrong and why wasn’t that done. Let me say Mosley wanted it in the name of fairness, it is others who ruled in the favour of not doing so. It is mighty rich of Mclaren to speak of “Honest/best behavior”. If anything, this was rather to the detriment of Ferrari, as their chief rival was clearly getting away with using their technology. Also, they had to (almost)bid their hopes of driver’s championship, owing to the pressures of English press, which was rather hostile towards FIA.
Am glad Raikkonen won it on track.
Regards!
There’s lots more discussion on whether the FIA generally favour Hamilton here: Alonso is not the victim of a McLaren conspiracy
This is another piece of evidence in the logbook of F1/FIA cock-ups. Rules enforcement is at best capricious.
Spantard
It’s “fun” reading F1 forums, so many opinions from so few facts. Journeyer (whom I often agree with) Says: “I still do believe that BMW and Williams still have to be punished for their infringement.” I find that interesting, he’s condemed them even with no evidence. And Oliver (whom I rarely agree with) got it right with this remark: In McLaren’s defense, they did not appeal any of the penalties handed to them this year, …” suggesting they wouldn’t appeal this one. I think all of us would agree (like it or not) Kimi won the race and the Championship and further FIA meddling would only bring further “disrepute to the sport”. It’s time to turn the page and get ready for 2008.
And we’ve still got Williams and Spyker crying about ‘customer car teams’……..will it never end? Is this really the “pinnacle of motorsport”?
thanks vertigo.
Sri:
I am a fan of F1, and no fan to any particular team. And I also try not to get emotional when I comment.
Number 38, to clarify:
I’m not condemning BMW and Williams at all. However, it has been stated by the FIA TECHNICAL REPRESENTATIVE (and that’s crucial here) that the fuel had irregularities.
From grandprix.com:
The FIA Technical Delegate Jo Bauer reported at the end of the race that the fuel temperatures in the two BMW Saubers and the two Williams-Toyotas were in contravention of the regulations at various points during the race. His report states that Nick Heidfeld’s fuel temperature was measured during his two stops as having been 24-deg C and 25-deg C, when the ambient temperature was 37-deg.
That’s pretty much black and white, the way I see it. The only reason BMW and Williams did not get punished is due to conflicting data on the ambient. Now, if BMW and Williams prove that they are not guilty, good on them. But if they were, they have to get the corresponding punishment.
But following historical precedence, that should not affect the drivers. This infringement (if ever) was a one-time deal. In addition, unlike BAR’s 2005 fiasco, it will be much harder to prove that this was done on purpose with the team knowing that it was illegal. And let’s face it: do we really want the title (not to mention what is arguably the greatest comeback in the history of the World Championship) taken away in a courtroom?
I forgot to add, the fuel thingy (as I mentioned in another thread) has also happened in Interlagos back in 1995 (with Schumi and DC). The teams were docked points, the drivers weren’t.
Nuff said.
Sri:
I might also want to state that, while Mclaren is no longer scoring points, technically they still score points only it will be wiped off at the end of the season. Their prize money won for champoinship position will form a part payment of their $100M fine. So if they protest, it might have nothing to do with the drivers championship, but more for the constructors championship, because those extra points got if the team points or (team and driver) point are taken away from BMW and Wiliams, then it would mean, Mclaren are infront of Ferrari techinically (constructors). And thats money less to add in meeting up with the fine.
Also, you make me laugh calling BAR’s disqualification
…”Also about BAR’s DQ in 2005 was more due to fuel delivery system(fuel tank design) to be precise”…
That is an over simplification. In actual fact, they were using fuel as a balast. Their fuel tank had a smaller fuel tank in it that was always filled up with fuel to meet the minimum weight requirement. However, the posibility existed, that the ballast fuel could be used up during the race, enabling the car to run far lighter than the minimum weight requirements with the associated performance benefits.
Toyota and Williams were disqualified for the same reason. The difference in with which their brake “cooling” ducts exceeded the regulations, was by just a few millimetres.
It’s the season that just keeps giving.
McLaren is within their right to appeal so you can’t blast them for doing it. Personally I think it’s a silly choice but these are big stakes so I see where they wouldn’t agree.
I just couldn’t believe when I came back in last night I was reading that Kimi maybe hadn’t taken it. I couldn’t believe he did take it either so, I’m not sure how surprised I was.
I hope/think the FIA will uphold the stewards decision, though. Yesterday’s race was actually one of the few really high points since June or July. This is the stuff that’s supposed to be my escape from the real world. It’s turned into just one more bag of aggro this season.
Time to say bye bye to 07.
Having deleted another raft of comments containing insults directed at other people can I please remind everyone once again to avoid using insults and be aware of the terms of commenting on F1Fanatic. Debate is great - but if you resort to insults your comment will be deleted.
slightly off topic, but fun nevertheless:
according to Pitpass, lewis did hit the wrong button and cause his gear malfunction:
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=33292
all ron dennis has said on the matter is:
“There was an incorrect command given to the system.”
he has yet to state by whom the command was given!
If that’s true that would be enormously humiliating…
But while that may be true or false, it is a know fact that Mclaren opened up the gearbox of Lewis just before the race started, because they were concerned that there existed a fault in it.
Hi everyone…
Season was exiting etc. when you look drivers championship. Team “game” was boring to watch and almost I lost good taste to F1, because of team “game” what happened at this season.
All four drivers (McLaren and Ferrari) were brilliant. All these guys want to race on track, not in court or outside of track. Last race was everything you can expect of F1 race. Mistakes, fight, pitstops,.. exciting!!!
If all GP’s will be same as 2007 last race (Brazil), there will be lot of fan’s and new people watching this sport. But all what is required is clean and pure competition.
Unfortunately F1 fans around the world watched yesterday ,maybe, the most embarrassing final in F1 history.
It would be by far more fair for the f1 fans to be announced the new world champion by Max Mosley than to watch a theatrical play on TV of how McLaren lose the driver’s championship.
Suddenly only in the last race Alonso was 45 secs slower than the ferraris.
Suddenly only in the last race Hamilton’s gearbox shifted to neutral and then started working properly only when Lewis was 16th.
Suddenly the Big bosses of McLaren accepted the above performance of their team like we was back in 2001, but just for the one and only final race.
Suddenly there wasn’t any safety car during the race even though turn 1,2 and 3 was full of debris from accidents (Renault,Spyker etc.).
Suddenly all f1 fans around the world became STUPID and believe that the above are coincidences.
I try to find Max Mosley’s e-mail address to send him a proposal. I think that in next season’s debut he’d better announce us who will take the two titles (drivers & constructors), in which race of the season, whether or not his beloved team (Ferrari) will be ruling all the sport AGAIN, which teams must obey all the rules and which must obey some of them, what new measures he’ll take to help Ferrari AGAIN, which GP we must visit in order to see a real and CLEAR RACE and which not. Finally I want to Remind to dear Max that he shouldn’t forget NOT to disqualify BMW or Williams for their fuel temperature (equality against rules) because that will be against Ferrari’s benefit.
PLEASE anyone that knows his e-mail send to me at enatos04@yahoo.com.
Hi
I agree with Kalle (no.47) the racing this season was brill. I would say that All 22 drivers were excellent! Robert Kubica being just one who springs to mind.
Roll on March 2008(but leave the politics in 2007), cos I’m missing F1 already!!
Sanity from Luca:
Di Montezemolo also suggested that the FIA should reconsider how the technical regulations were enforced and appoint professional stewards rather than the current unpaid officials.
“Enough of that, let’s look ahead and let’s send professional stewards to the races instead of amateurs at large,” he said.
“It must be said that the complexity of today’s cars creates difficulties in checks and verifications, from the electronics to the fuels, aerodynamics and everything else. Everything is about hundredths of seconds.”