Comments on: The FIA must solve the customer car problem http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/ F1 Fanatic - The Formula 1 Blog with F1 news, pictures, video, comment and analysis Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:32:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Pete Walker http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-147146 Pete Walker Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:43:35 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-147146 Regarding the suggestion that we could (and some say should) end up with 6 manufacturers fielding four cars each as two teams, I think this would be a sad day for the sport. Firstly, how would the selection process for the second teams work? I guess manufacturers would be free to strike their own deals with the smaller teams. But of course, all the smaller teams would be angling for a Ferrari or McLaren. So in effect, the top teams would be able to shape the face of the field, simply by choosing which teams will be more competitive by stepping up to using their cars. Seems unfair that someone like Force India could either struggle or flourish based on whether or not Ferrari deems them a suitable ally. Its these alliances, too, that will cause problems. If a manufacturer had both teams running in the top four positions in a GP, the drivers might get the old 'hold station' instruction and suddenly we have no action at the front for the rest of the afternoon. If the budget cap can work (and they free up the tech regs), I think its the way to go. I'm convinced we'll see more manufacturer interest in the sport (namely VW Audi Group) and independents will have more opportunities for better results. If Max can get this right, I think we could have a 12 or even 13 team grid within five years, both manufacturers and privateers. Regarding the suggestion that we could (and some say should) end up with 6 manufacturers fielding four cars each as two teams, I think this would be a sad day for the sport.

Firstly, how would the selection process for the second teams work? I guess manufacturers would be free to strike their own deals with the smaller teams. But of course, all the smaller teams would be angling for a Ferrari or McLaren. So in effect, the top teams would be able to shape the face of the field, simply by choosing which teams will be more competitive by stepping up to using their cars. Seems unfair that someone like Force India could either struggle or flourish based on whether or not Ferrari deems them a suitable ally.

Its these alliances, too, that will cause problems. If a manufacturer had both teams running in the top four positions in a GP, the drivers might get the old ‘hold station’ instruction and suddenly we have no action at the front for the rest of the afternoon.

If the budget cap can work (and they free up the tech regs), I think its the way to go. I’m convinced we’ll see more manufacturer interest in the sport (namely VW Audi Group) and independents will have more opportunities for better results. If Max can get this right, I think we could have a 12 or even 13 team grid within five years, both manufacturers and privateers.

]]> By: Alianora La Canta http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-146978 Alianora La Canta Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:04:34 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146978 The FIA cannot intervene on the matter until the Court of Arbitration in Lausanne has had its say on whether customer cars are legal - or Force India withdraws the case. To do otherwise would be to pervert the course of justice. Force India hasn't really got a choice but to continue with the case, though. For all that it would be easier for teams to enter in the short term, the medium term will see small constructors drop out as Ferrari and one other manufacturer ends up dominating the series, using their customer team(s) to protect their works efforts and also to increase the resources available to them. It will make a mockery of any per-team restrictions made to F1, whether they are to the budget or to development tools. Force India will only ever be a small constructor, even if it becomes quick enough to win the championship. Therefore, it sees the customer car case as a matter of its long-term survival. I'm sure it doesn't mind the prospect of having two easier-to-defeat rivals either, for all that Formula 1 needs large grids for long-term viability. The solution is not to put customer cars into the mix, but to allow more ways for cars to be quick, and design the rules so that no team can cover every base. This will not only mean that cars will be more varied, but that a team will be able to spend less money and still get a car that is quick some of the time. Since even the best cars will not be quick all the time, this should lead to closer, less costly racing and more viable teams. The problem is that such a method requires the rules to be freed up - and the FIA is bent on going the opposite direction at the moment. The FIA cannot intervene on the matter until the Court of Arbitration in Lausanne has had its say on whether customer cars are legal – or Force India withdraws the case. To do otherwise would be to pervert the course of justice.

Force India hasn’t really got a choice but to continue with the case, though. For all that it would be easier for teams to enter in the short term, the medium term will see small constructors drop out as Ferrari and one other manufacturer ends up dominating the series, using their customer team(s) to protect their works efforts and also to increase the resources available to them. It will make a mockery of any per-team restrictions made to F1, whether they are to the budget or to development tools. Force India will only ever be a small constructor, even if it becomes quick enough to win the championship. Therefore, it sees the customer car case as a matter of its long-term survival.

I’m sure it doesn’t mind the prospect of having two easier-to-defeat rivals either, for all that Formula 1 needs large grids for long-term viability.

The solution is not to put customer cars into the mix, but to allow more ways for cars to be quick, and design the rules so that no team can cover every base. This will not only mean that cars will be more varied, but that a team will be able to spend less money and still get a car that is quick some of the time. Since even the best cars will not be quick all the time, this should lead to closer, less costly racing and more viable teams. The problem is that such a method requires the rules to be freed up – and the FIA is bent on going the opposite direction at the moment.

]]> By: Steven Roy http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-146915 Steven Roy Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:56:29 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146915 It is only a matter of time before Toyota yields to the inevitable and exits stage left. Carlos Ghosn would have pulled Renault out had they been fined anything close to the obscene amount of money McLaren were fined. I believe the only reason he is still there is that he thinks he can sell the team at a profit to Carlos Slim Helu. Honda are an embarrassment to themselves but unless they do what Toyota did with Mike Gascoyne and let corporate culture get in the way of someone who actually knows about racing you have to assume that Ross Brawn will turn it around but it could take five years. Ford have already left because they discovered they hadn't a clue how to go about running a racing team. If the manufacturers leave and history says the vast majority of them drop F1 like a hot rock the first time their balance sheet has a red number threatening to appear at the bottom of it customer cars must be allowed in. I can understand Williams' position. They have invested a vast amount of money over the years and they don't want someone to turn up having invested an insignificant fraction of that money and be able to get a fully sorted car/engine package. I understand and sympathise with their position but I don't see another option. I would guess that now that his team is heading in the right direction again he is simply playing hardball and making sure he gets paid off for going along with the inevitable. I would not like to play poker with Frank. I am sure even Bernie wouldn't relish that. Lest we forget Frank managed to get Jenson Button to pay him an absolute fortune not to drive for him and in the end probably used that money to keep Nico Rosberg in the car. Not many team principles in the history of the sport have managed to get one driver to pay another driver's salary while at the same time forcing that driver's currentl employer to pay him a ridiculous amount of money so that he could afford to do it. And bear in mind Frank achieved this while Button volunteered to go to a team that is unlikely to be a threat to Williams in the foreseeable future. It is only a matter of time before Toyota yields to the inevitable and exits stage left. Carlos Ghosn would have pulled Renault out had they been fined anything close to the obscene amount of money McLaren were fined. I believe the only reason he is still there is that he thinks he can sell the team at a profit to Carlos Slim Helu.

Honda are an embarrassment to themselves but unless they do what Toyota did with Mike Gascoyne and let corporate culture get in the way of someone who actually knows about racing you have to assume that Ross Brawn will turn it around but it could take five years.

Ford have already left because they discovered they hadn’t a clue how to go about running a racing team.

If the manufacturers leave and history says the vast majority of them drop F1 like a hot rock the first time their balance sheet has a red number threatening to appear at the bottom of it customer cars must be allowed in.

I can understand Williams’ position. They have invested a vast amount of money over the years and they don’t want someone to turn up having invested an insignificant fraction of that money and be able to get a fully sorted car/engine package. I understand and sympathise with their position but I don’t see another option. I would guess that now that his team is heading in the right direction again he is simply playing hardball and making sure he gets paid off for going along with the inevitable. I would not like to play poker with Frank. I am sure even Bernie wouldn’t relish that. Lest we forget Frank managed to get Jenson Button to pay him an absolute fortune not to drive for him and in the end probably used that money to keep Nico Rosberg in the car. Not many team principles in the history of the sport have managed to get one driver to pay another driver’s salary while at the same time forcing that driver’s currentl employer to pay him a ridiculous amount of money so that he could afford to do it. And bear in mind Frank achieved this while Button volunteered to go to a team that is unlikely to be a threat to Williams in the foreseeable future.

]]> By: openwheelfan http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-2/#comment-146810 openwheelfan Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:57:59 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146810 If Williams is so scared that a customer team may be faster then maybe he could become a customer---problem solved!! NO-NO that would be too easy!! If Williams is so scared that a customer team may be faster then maybe he could become a customer—problem solved!!

NO-NO that would be too easy!!

]]> By: Pink Peril http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-146788 Pink Peril Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:14:57 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146788 Seems we all agree the current situation is not optimal, and something - although I don't know what - has to be done. It is simply ridiculous that the matter has lain unresolved for so long. I am not fussed if there are customer cars or not, but clearly there needs to be a decision made one way or another and quickly. I would be very sorry indeed to see the loss of Super Aguri on this years grid. Seems we all agree the current situation is not optimal, and something – although I don’t know what – has to be done. It is simply ridiculous that the matter has lain unresolved for so long. I am not fussed if there are customer cars or not, but clearly there needs to be a decision made one way or another and quickly.

I would be very sorry indeed to see the loss of Super Aguri on this years grid.

]]> By: Arnet http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-146786 Arnet Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:13:22 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146786 It's a grey area because STR and Aguri aren't true customer cars. Red Bull and Honda have created separate legal entities that "own" the designs of the respective cars and "sell" them to each team. It isn't clear why this arrangement wasn't followed with Richards and McLaren, but it's a silly technicality. I fully support whatever will give real racers a chance to move up from other categories, but these legal loop-holes need to be clarified. The current Concord Agreement is simply the old one grandfathered in and no one wants to rock the boat, but it's easy to see Williams point. It's hard enough to compete against a top team without having to compete mid-field with their customer. There needs to be a consensus solution with the good of the sport being put up front, not the manufacturer's commercial interests. Oh, and unicorns will have to roam the earth first. It’s a grey area because STR and Aguri aren’t true customer cars. Red Bull and Honda have created separate legal entities that “own” the designs of the respective cars and “sell” them to each team. It isn’t clear why this arrangement wasn’t followed with Richards and McLaren, but it’s a silly technicality. I fully support whatever will give real racers a chance to move up from other categories, but these legal loop-holes need to be clarified. The current Concord Agreement is simply the old one grandfathered in and no one wants to rock the boat, but it’s easy to see Williams point. It’s hard enough to compete against a top team without having to compete mid-field with their customer. There needs to be a consensus solution with the good of the sport being put up front, not the manufacturer’s commercial interests. Oh, and unicorns will have to roam the earth first.

]]> By: alan http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-146783 alan Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:09:48 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146783 I would see no problem with a customer having the ability to mix and match engines with chassis - that's what used to happen with virtually every team with the main exception of ferrari - I know there may have been more but in the sixties seventies - lotus/tyrrel/mclaren/etc used the same engine and we had new innovations - wheels/skirts/ ground hugging all coming into play and out? This was a great time for competitive racing - everybody copied - without being fined millions and we the fans saw motor racing as it should be - but those are rose coloured memories - we have to move forward and clear teams to come into F1 - I cant see why customer cars arent being allowed apart from one main point - that no one would buy a williams - they know that so they stop other teams getting started - drop williams from F1? - not nice but it's an idea I would see no problem with a customer having the ability to mix and match engines with chassis – that’s what used to happen with virtually every team with the main exception of ferrari – I know there may have been more but in the sixties seventies – lotus/tyrrel/mclaren/etc used the same engine and we had new innovations – wheels/skirts/ ground hugging all coming into play and out?
This was a great time for competitive racing – everybody copied – without being fined millions and we the fans saw motor racing as it should be – but those are rose coloured memories – we have to move forward and clear teams to come into F1 – I cant see why customer cars arent being allowed apart from one main point – that no one would buy a williams – they know that so they stop other teams getting started – drop williams from F1? – not nice but it’s an idea

]]> By: Michael Roberts http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-146767 Michael Roberts Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:54:11 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146767 I think customer cars are a great idea for new teams but all the teams should design their cars in the medium - long term because this is what separates Formula One from other series. The only problem with letting new teams use customer cars is that people will come in, like Midland and buy a team for year and then sell it on. I think customer cars are a great idea for new teams but all the teams should design their cars in the medium – long term because this is what separates Formula One from other series. The only problem with letting new teams use customer cars is that people will come in, like Midland and buy a team for year and then sell it on.

]]> By: Chris Johnson http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-146749 Chris Johnson Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:54:52 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146749 It's hard to conceive that F1 can be really worth it to all of the manufacturers, especially the ones who aren't winning. With the budgets required to win, you just can't have a mix of manufacturers and privateers; it either needs to be all or nothing. If Super Aguri dies, or a car maker pulls out, it will be difficult to fill the grid. Max knows that he's got to make the sport green, and relevant to the future of the industry. There are so many things they could do, and customer cars is the obvious one, especially, as stated above, limited to 4 cars per "constructor". This spreads development costs across a wider field, adds new blood to a very closed series, and on and on. Why not allow one car entrants? I'll bet Alonso would set up his own Spanish-funded solo Ferrari team if he could. It's too bad the teams can't agree on anything for the good of the sport. It’s hard to conceive that F1 can be really worth it to all of the manufacturers, especially the ones who aren’t winning. With the budgets required to win, you just can’t have a mix of manufacturers and privateers; it either needs to be all or nothing. If Super Aguri dies, or a car maker pulls out, it will be difficult to fill the grid. Max knows that he’s got to make the sport green, and relevant to the future of the industry. There are so many things they could do, and customer cars is the obvious one, especially, as stated above, limited to 4 cars per “constructor”. This spreads development costs across a wider field, adds new blood to a very closed series, and on and on. Why not allow one car entrants? I’ll bet Alonso would set up his own Spanish-funded solo Ferrari team if he could. It’s too bad the teams can’t agree on anything for the good of the sport.

]]> By: William Wilgus http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-146731 William Wilgus Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:35:13 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/02/27/the-fia-must-solve-the-customer-car-problem/#comment-146731 Well, customer ENGINES are certainly allowed . . . why not cars (chassis) as well? Well, customer ENGINES are certainly allowed . . . why not cars (chassis) as well?

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