Fine for Ferrari, Massa gets off free, and the FIA gets it wrong on every count
Felipe Massa escaped punishment for his slighty-too-fast getaway
Felipe Massa has not been punished following his incident in the pits with Adrian Sutil in today’s European Grand Prix. His Ferrari team has been fined €10,000 (£7,979) for releasing him into the path of Sutil’s car following his second pit stop on lap 37.
It’s a baffling verdict by the FIA and one that will be seen by many as further evidence the sports’ governing body goes out of its way to favour Ferrari.
I’m not convinced by Ferrari’s claim Massa gained no advantage, I think the penalty is totally unsuited to the infraction, and it is inconsistent with past FIA decisions.
Ferrari’s defence
Stewards' document 41 explained Massa's penalty (click to enlarge)
The decision issued by the stewards described the incident as: “Unsafe release from pit stop, although no sporting advantage was obtained.”
The use of the phrase “no sporting advantage was obtained” is surprising. It echoes the defence of the incident given by Ferrari’s Luca Colajanni immediately afterwards, that neither Massa was advantaged nor Sutil disadvantaged by the move.
The defence that ‘no advantage was gained’ is not ordinarily one that has much currency with the FIA. As Autosport’s Thomas O’Keefe, an expert on the FIA’s regulations, wrote in 2002 (sub. req.):
The Court of Appeal tends not to take kindly to defenses of competitors that sound like “we had no performance advantage” or there were “exceptional circumstances” or “it was unintentional,” which the FIA seems to regard as equivalent to The-Dog-Ate-My-Homework.
Apparently on this occasion the stewards of the meeting were quite happy with Ferrari’s claim that no advantage was gained by them - even if it wasn’t true.
I’m not convinced there is absolute proof Massa did not gain an advantage. Afterwards he admitted that he had lost time letting Sutil go past him:
I came very close to [colliding with him], so I needed to back off, and for sure I lost a lot of time.
Despite that he still left the pit lane about as close to the Force India as he could possibly have been.
So did he gain an advantage? Let’s imagine Ferrari had kept him in his box, and waited for Sutil to pass before releasing him. Would have have been able to leave the pits as close to Sutil as he did?
I would say almost certainly not. I think it is more than likely he gained an advantage by being released alongside Sutil, and then merging in behind the Force India, than being released by the team from a standing start as the car went past.
Massa’s defence
Massa’s reaction to the incident was, bizarrely, to blame Sutil:
I think it wasn’t very clever from his side, because even if he got out in front of me he would need to let me by, so it was a little bit of a shame to fight with him in the pit lane.
I stopped behind him on the pit stop and we left together. So when he was passing me by I was leaving the garage, so we were side-by-side. But, I mean, I was the leader and he was a lapped car.
This is irrelevant and rather silly. The rules say one car should not be released until it is safe to do so. It’s not realistic to expect cars that might be a lap down to stop and wait for another car to come out.
Precedent
The precedent based on how the stewards have handled previous ‘unsafe releases’ is somewhat confusing.
On several occasions F1 cars have left the pit lane two abreast. For example, Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel had just such a run-in at Hockenheim:
One might argue that on that occasion the pit lane was wide enough for both cars, whereas at Valencia it clearly was not. Presumably that was the FIA’s opinion as on that occasion neither driver was punished.
During the GP2 feature race at Valencia Karun Chandhok received a drive-through penalty after being released into the path of another competitor. The stewards wasted no time in punishing him.
Was Chandhok’s pit violation that much more unsafe than Massa’s? It’s hard to see how.
Does the punishment fit the crime?
Given the FIA have accepted Massa’s release from the pit lane was unsafe, their choice of punishment is completely wrong.
The purpose of a punishment should be to prevent someone from breaking the rules. When a team has broken the rules and gained an advantage, as Ferrari may have done here, and their punishment is a small (by F1 standards) fine, they are not going to be dissuaded from doing it again.
If Ferrari saved as little as half a second by releasing Massa too soon, they may consider it €10,000 well spent. Extra performance does not necessarily come so cheaply in the wind tunnel.
Yes, it would have been a shame to see Massa punished for a mistake he was not responsible for (despite his pathetic attempt to balme Sutil) having driven so well. But it is the only worthwhile way of penalising safety violations.
And just to make it worse…
Whether the FIA had punished Massa or not there would have lots of people unhappy with the outcome. During the F1 Fanatic live blog a poll on whether Massa should be punished split the audience 49% to 51%.
But what the FIA unquestionably got wrong was delaying the decision until after the race. Given that they were able to render a verdict on Chandhok’s misdemeanour in the GP2 race so quickly, it appeared very dubious that they deferred a decision on Massa’s penalty.
In the same weekend many were surprised to see Timo Glock go unpunished after delaying two other cars during qualifying. Once again the FIA’s decision-making seems totally arbitrary and inconsistent.
Do you think Massa should have been penalised for the pit lane infraction?
Comments have been split across multiple pages. If you’re having trouble viewing the pages click here to see all comments.
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- Valencia: Hockenheimring with walls?
- Toyota European GP preview (Video)
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- 2008 European GP predictions
- First pictures of the Valencia F1 street track (2008 European Grand Prix)
- 2008 European GP preview (Video)
- First impressions of Valencia’s F1 track
- Felipe Massa pips Lewis Hamilton to pole (2008 European Grand Prix qualifying)
- Ferrari engines fill top four places in speed traps in qualifying at Valencia
- Thoughts on qualifying and the start (2008 European Grand Prix)
- Felipe Massa scores flawless win at Valencia (2008 European GP review)
- Rate the race: 2008 European Grand Prix
- Ferrari mechanic injured and Massa faces penalty threat after pit lane problems
- Fine for Ferrari, Massa gets off free, and the FIA gets it wrong on every count
- Championship points after European GP
- Thought the Valencia race was rubbish? Don’t blame the track, blame the rules
- 2008 European Grand Prix pictures
- 2008 European Grand Prix stats & facts
- Valencia: team mate versus team mate
i think he should have been, but knew he wasn’t going to be
This is typical Ferrari, getting away with it,
Had it been Hamilton, he would have been punished.
Once more we are talking about incidents involving the race, and not about the race.
A rule is a rule even if it is a bad one. No one retired from the race, no contact was made. Cars should be free to go in and out of their pit stall as they please. Any contact usually means the end of the race for both anyway, let them police themselves.
Steve contact between two cars in the pit lane would likely mean more than just drivers being taken out of the race - it could mean mechanics getting injured or worse.
their was a cameraman by Bernt Maylanders car. you know the car that Massa missed by half a metre
I think it will be clear to most people, that Ferrari and Massa got off lightly. It seem to me that they wanted to see what the outcome of the race would be and then apply the punishment if you can call it that. It’s a shame because it’s putting me off F1. Rules are Rules,
so they should stick to it, no matter the outcome. Lewis would have been punished during the race or the next race.
It’s no good to complain that Lewis wouldn’t have gotten away with it, that’s hypothetical at best and a bit childish.
I do think Massa was lucky to keep the win, but I would blame Ferrari’s “traffic lights” system for Massa’s quick release. If it had been a human being standing in front of the car with a lollipop, he’d have seen that Sutil was coming and could have waited to release Massa.
I’m surprised that the post-race weight of Massa’s car hasn’t even been a talking point — he started with the brake covers on and finished with them off! I’m sure they’re lightweight but so I’m not surprised it passed inspection, just surprised I’ve heard no one mention it.
Kevin - excellent spot! I guess they set the car’s weight on the presumption that it might lose them as they’re quite vulnerable.
Guys I think you’re right:
Massa should be punished even if there was no contact between Ferrari & Force India
Does anyone else think that Stoker, Spano & Vidal might get a nice present from Italy for Christmas this year ?
As a Ferrari fan, I’m hardly disappointed with the decision of the stewards but I still think that the penalty was ridiculous. The rules are there for a reason and if there’s not a stringent enough punishment, then what extra reason is there for teams to be more careful?
That being said I think the rule should be looked at. I’ve always believed: Punish the driver for a driving error, punish the team for a team error. Though there is a strong argument that Massa should have been penalised via a drive/through or grid penalty, How awful would that have been for the race and the outcome?! Massa drove beautifully and deserved the win and his 10 points, to take anything away from him would be a sin. But someone should be punished and that should be Ferrari. Dock them constructors points or fine them a significant amount of money. €10000 to an F1 team is like ice-cream money to the rest of us.
As a Ferrari fan I often tire of people continuingly going on about pro-Ferrari bias and jibes like FIArrari and Ferrari International Assistance but after decisions like today, the FIA aren’t exactly doing their best to counteract these claims…
While this is just the latest in a long line of examples where the FIA appears to have given preferential treatment towards Ferrari, we are now getting to the stage where a clear enough pattern is emerging as to raise more serious questions about what exactly is really going on inside the FIA. Do Ferrari have some kind of hold over them, or a few high-up individuals within the sport? Do the FIA have a conflict of interest?
I am an advocate of Occam’s razor, which would suggest that rather than a deliberate action by the FIA to favour Ferrari, they have simply screwed up once again. But the situation now seems to be moving away from one of simple incompetence, towards something more sinister. Is it time to ask the question - does the FIA need to be cleaned up?
No blame of Massa and i think only sligt of Ferrari. It was a bad luck. Nothing happend to the Sutil or Massa. If the Pit exit was bigger (like in Monza) this will be no problem.
Remmember when Kubica and Alonso go out of the pit boxes in Monza 2006 wheel to wheel and no damage was done…
I think you overreacting. If the same situation was with Lewis Hamilton an Adrian Sutil you still will be wanting a penalty for Lewis and McLaren?
FIA wants Massa to win the championship plain and simple, because he has PASSION! and that’s what they want in a champion. The guy can’t drive well at all unless on pole position, but that’s what they want. Why else would he constantly be short fueled?!? Obviously there is a group in Ferrari, most likely lead by Michael Schumacher and Todt to sabatoge Kimi’s championship run so his “protege” can win the title.
@Nick
Drivers chose their strategy together with their engineers. One can often see 2 drivers from the same team driving with different strategies. Kimi, i think has always been fuelled relatively heavy(compared to Massa), even when he was winning poles, races and a championship, for that matter.
I for one, will say this once again that this i’ve seen happen many times in the years past(in more than a decade or so of keeping track of F1). This however, never has been reported by the stewards ever for penalty.
Regardless of whether the pit lane / pit lane exit is wide enough or not, the truth is that at any circuit there’s highly flammable fluid around and (as proved by one of Ferrari’s other stops today) people standing around wearing no more than fireproof overalls.
Racing in the pitlane shouldn’t be allowed under any circumstance. If you decide it on whether the pit lane’s wide enough or not then it’s open to interpretation. If today in Valencia the FIA are trying to make an example of Massa / Ferrari then for this year they’re 12 races too late.
Without trying to target Ferrari, I’d also highlight why Raikkonen was racing Kubica in the pit lane in Canada. Had the Ferrari and BWM not been side-by-side, Lewis would have had a place to steer his fast moving McLaren. At this point you’re talking about creating an avoidable accident.
How nice to read unbiased comments from Dorian who is clearly a big Ferrari fan.
Had the FIA puninished the team as they should have by stripping constructors points, it would have put McLaren ahead in the constructors championship. That would have never done!!!!!!
On the subject of cleaning up the FIA, its been tried but they failed and Max reigns on….. By all accounts his replacement will be Jean Todt when he stands down at the end of the 2009 season….. I really can’t wait.
What a bunch of whiners……..racing advantage to Ferrari????? What a microsecond and a metre? Both Massa and Sutil ought to be given bonuses ……. Massa for using the brakes and avoiding an incident and Sutil for allowing Massa to pass as soon as practicle. Kimi is the one who should have been penalized, he clearly left before the green light came on and not a word’s been whispered about that! I think there’s a lot of anti-Ferrari bias here and most can’t accept the fact that Massa is becoming a GREAT driver, here (and in Hungary) he just drove away from Hamilton at will. He’s learned his car, he’s learned to drive and he’s very possibly the next Driver Champion. Have a look back at yesterday’s question…….PREDICTIONS………50 entries and I didn’t see one with Massa as winner and few even had him on the podium. WAKE UP FOLKS!
If Todt replaces Mosley next year then that will just sum up what F1 is all about.
I think to suggest that Massa should be punished is unfair - he did exactly what a racing driver is supposed to do - leaving a pitstop isn’t like pulling out a junction, you can’t check your mirrors to make sure the road behind is clear. Massa went when his team instructed him to, and that’s where the fault lies - and it’s right the team is punished.
article 23.1 (i) of the Sporting Regulations: “It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car after a pit stop only when it is safe to do so.”
Surely this rule also applies to Kimis incident (and others that have done similar).
It’s not just about involving other cars in the pit lane.
The advantage/disadvantage element in Massa’s case is a total red herring - it’s either safe or it’s not. The FIA should punish any car that doubles-up when exiting, for the safety of all personnel. There should also fixed penalties for this type of incident to avoid the fair/unfair situation. The penalties should not be monetary either (they don’t hurt).
Alonso was given the same penalty as Massa for crossing a white line at the pit entry during free practice - are the incidents comparable ?
In the GP2 feature race Karun Chandok was released into the path of Andy Soucek forcing Soucek to brake suddenly. This was dangerous and Chandok gained an advantage from doing this and was penalised immediately.
The Massa incident was in the grey area because there was no possible way that Sutil needed to brake and Massa had to let him through which he did. Then Massa complained about it in the press conference, which I guess the stewards weren’t happy about and probbaly have or will give him a talking to.
Number 38 - perfectly said… Even if there should have been a heavier punishment for Massa, it would be only for leaving the pits under unsafe circunstances, not for a supposed racing advantage generated by his conduct… Massa almost hit the wall, ran longer in the dust and had to back off… none of this means racing advantage…
And all those who say FIA is openly pro-Ferrari shouldn’t forget that the same organization allowed the McLaren drivers to keep their points in the WDC after the spygate!
@Nick - If you think Massa only races well from pole position, probably you’ve missed the Hungarian Grand Prix…
Emotions running far too high in some posters for them to retain clarity (I’m looking at you Number 38). There’s some clear facts regarding Massa, his pit lane infringement and the punishment.
Massa drove a superb race - no doubt - the win was deserved and he controlled things perfectly from the starting grid to the chequered flag.
What occurred in the pit lane was an infringement of the rules - this point should not even be in debate. By all means debate whether the rule is appropriate but the rule that is in place was broken. Arguing against the established rule however - imho - is to offhandedly disregard the safety of every person that works up and down those pit lanes. there’s a lot of innocent folk out there having their lives put at risk by recklessness. That is no overdramatisation either - we all know what can happen when F1 cars collide.
The punishment is - quite clearly - out of proportion and unprecedented. €10,000 is a token punishment - it means absolutely nothing to the purses of an F1 team like Ferrari and is simply a gesture to show that *some* punishment has been given. The driver was found guilty of the stated infringement of the rules and should have been given the same punishment that has been previously handed out to guilty parties. Setting a precedent whereby teams realise that these pit lane antics will result in nothing but a light tap on the wrist leaves pit lane workers in a very scary position - one i certainly don’t envy.
The stewards should have issued a drive through as soon as it occured, just as in the GP2 race as cited by Keith. Why didn’t they? To allow time for Ferrari to create the bogus rationale that would allow letting them off. FIA favoritism for Ferrari? Undoubtedly!
The bigger question is why Ferrari’s pit work seems to be falling apart, (Massa’s mistake and Kimi’s leaving early) as well as Kimi’s detonating engine. Not to mention the current WC seeming to sleep his way through the season with nary a care in the world. Ferrari are not worthy of either title this year.
Massa’s comments about Sutil is on par with Hamiltons ‘monkeys at the back’
Daniel you don’t think that a 1 million dollar fine and all their constructors points being stripped wasn’t a big enough punishment for McLaren then?
I don’t think a 10,000 euro fine was a big enough punisment for Ferrari. Nobody wants to distract from Massa’s win today, he drove a sterling race, but as Keith points out in his article this is a small price and other teams may feel its worth the risk in the future.
I don’t think there is a team on the grid who would risk a look at a Ferrari technical dossier.
“And all those who say FIA is openly pro-Ferrari shouldn’t forget that the same organization allowed the McLaren drivers to keep their points in the WDC after the spygate.”
As an inducement to sell out their team and keep their superlicenses! Massa’s infraction was not about racing advantage it was about pit lane safety, period. I agree that Felipe had the best car all day long, but winning is also about playing by the rules, all of them.
Thats a very good point George. If anyone speeds in the pit lane by 1 kph, instantly they issue a drive through.
On a different note you have to feel really sorry for Alonso. He gets a 10,000€ fine for crossing the pit lane white line then taken out in his home grand prix during the first lap.
Spencer: Since the WDC is what matters the most, leaving two drivers that clearly had an sporting advantage without any consequence is unfair, IMO…
From the team’s perspective, it was enough, but they had a chance to crown a world champion (and, in fact, few people remember the constructor’s champion, when it isn’t the driver’s champion team, like Ferrari’s WCC in 1999…), despite all the illegal improvements made on their cars…
As for Massa, I think a grid drop (five places) would be the most reasonable punishment… beyond that would be as unproportional as the 10,000 euro fine…
My wife and I debated this long and hard - an unsafe release is just plain unsafe. Firing a weapon in the High Street is also unsafe. Just because no-one gets hurt, doesn’t mean you should do it again. Silly example yes, but I’m sure you see my point.
I disagree that only the team should be punished for a team mistake - F1 is a team sport so the fact that an unsafe release brings punishment on the driver, possibly robbing him of a win or points, would mean the team keeps on their toes. If the team start getting E10K fines for running underweight without the driver knowing, where does it end?
And good on you Dorian - most Ferrari fans I know (Australians, yes, so lower IQ blah blah blah) would never be so even-handed.
E10K is a piffling fine, that’s the sort of fine they hand out in lesser formulae where it actually hurts. He should have had a drive-through, just like a McLaren undoubtedly would. And no, I’m no massive McLaren fan, but the reality is Ferrari got away with it, as usual. This isn’t a charming eccentricity of the sport anymore, it’s a big steaming load of poo.
I do not want Massa be punish but rules are rules. He did not brake rule, it was team who let him go too early.But by rules its drivers who pay price.Money punishment really do not means so much for these guys who earn so much. So drive threw during race would be correct.
Seems that FIA was softy in this weekend and not only for Ferrari like some McLaren fans want believe. They were soft for Glock as well.
Number 38: “Kimi is the one who should have been penalized, he clearly left before the green light came on and not a word’s been whispered about that!”
I mentioned that here, but besides that Raikkonen didn’t break any rules so it’s really just two different incidents.
Ceedas: “I think to suggest that Massa should be punished is unfair - he did exactly what a racing driver is supposed to do - leaving a pitstop isn’t like pulling out a junction, you can’t check your mirrors to make sure the road behind is clear.” I think your point is quite illuminating, although I don’t agree with you. There’s no reason why Ferrari or any other team couldn’t make it possible for their drivers to see what is coming behind them. They could stick huge wing mirrors on the cars, or they could use mirrored lollipops (as they chose to until fairly recently). But instead they delegate that part of controlling the car from the driver to someone else. Again, that’s entirely at their discretion, but the driver is in control of the car and if he makes an error in driving it as a result of bad information then he should be penalised for it just like anything else.
But this brings me back to one of the points above: if someone has done something unsafe and gained an advantage, and you punish them with a (comparatively small) fine, there is no reason for them not to do it again.
D Winn - Good point on the Alonso penalty. I thought Massa’s transgression was far more dangerous.
Daniel: “Massa almost hit the wall, ran longer in the dust and had to back off… none of this means racing advantage.”
I don’t agree. Because Massa ran alongside Sutil he was able to leave the pits closer to the Force India than is Ferrari had waited and released him as the Force India was passing by. It’s a bit like trying to jump onto a moving car - it’d be much easier if you were standing on another car moving at the same speed, than if you were standing at the side of the road.
But I agree a stiffer punishment is needed for Massa. A five place grid penalty would be alright, but there’s no reason why they couldn’t have imposed a time or drive-through penalty for this race.
Surely the fact that the incident was investigated after the race is irrelevant, seeing as that is how it has been since 2006 for any incident that happens during a race that requires the stewards’ attention.
Furthermore, seeing as Vettel and STR weren’t punished for the incident with Alonso in Hockenheim?, which, let’s face it, was pretty much the same situation (except it was for position instead of one driver being nearly a lap down), I don’t see how or why Ferrari and/or Massa can be punished.
Rohan - Loads of incidents in the past year and a half have resulted in penalties during the race - Hamilton at Magny-Cours this year for example.
Yes, you’re right Keith - it’s been a long day /o\
Giving Massa a points dock might seriously affect Ferrari viewership because Lewis would be well ahead. Does anyone think that the need to keep Ferrari well in the game (so that people continue to watch, etc) is contributing to the inconsistent decisions?
I think these decisions are influenced by the need to keep the championship unpredictable as far as possible.
I keep reading that Max has contributed so much to F1 safety and then we have a situation where the stewards say something that happened was dangerous and then don’t punish it. The idea that Massa should not be punished because he drove well is mind boggling. Dangerous is dangerous and should be punished regardless how well someone drove.
Alan Donnelly was Max’s personal appointment to assist the stewards in reaching quick decisions yet something like this which is an open and shut case cannot be decided until after the race.
Clearly this is another case of Ferrari International Assistance coming to the rescue of their team. This is the same as Raikkonen being allowed to drive round Magny Cours with an exhaust pipe dangling on a wire.
Constructors points and drivers points should always be linked. The idea that you can take points off one and not the other is ridiculous and only worthy of someone like Max. How can McLaren lose constructors points for Alonso parking in the pits in Hungary but Ferrari receive no penalty for flouting safety rules?
The FIA are clearly prepared to roll over and let Ferrari do anything they want regardless how much they embarrass the FIA. No-one with any sense believed Ferrari’s wheel covers had anything to do with brake cooling. But unless they are barke duct extensions they are illegal for about four different reasons. For the second time this season Ferrari have had to remove they brake colling devices to stop their brakes overheating. They lied all along about their purpose and everyone with any sense knew they were lying. Either the FIA were conned and don’t want to raise the issue now or they were complicit.
@Shashi
That was last year(erm, spygate anyone?)… and this year who knows??? 4 drivers are separated by less than 20 points, with still a handful of races to go. It is so far anyone’s championship, with or without the intervention from FIA.
This is perhaps the first ever incident of this sort, reported by stewards(in more than a decade or so)? It is not like this never ever happened. People, these are young guys driving fast cars. Potentially dangerous mix, which is why they have rules. However, rules are to regulate racing, not to choke racing and racing drivers(as many of you complained in so many posts).
Typical of the FIA to let Farrari off, they always seem to do everything they can to put other teams down in the interests of helping Ferrari win the championship, because of this I always want Ferrari to lose so that it annoys the FIA. If a McLaren had done something dangerous in the pits they would have been penalised with glee as they have been in the past; and that is totally wrong in a sporting event where evenhandedness is very important. There should be an external enquirey into the goings on inside the FIA by an impartial organisation.
FIA - Ferrari …… enough said. I’m just shocked it wasn’t found to be the fault of McLaren.
For some reason I keep getting a picture of a big wheel-of-fortune-type spinner wheel in my head, and the FIA Stewards standing around it, with Ferrari calling out “Free Spin” from the stalls………
Pink Peril,
Alianora beat you to this theory after some of last year’s inventive interpretation of the rules. Because there were so many unusual rulings she ended up with two wheels of misfortune.
The original can be found at http://formula1home.com/forum/weblog_entry.php?e=164 and the second at http://www.gpwizard.co.uk/index.php?ind=gallery&op=foto_show&ida=974
Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting, how can the stewards be capable of setting a precedent in the GP2 race and then disregarding it completely in F1?
This is not the first time Ferrari have done this, Kimi’s infringment was overshadowed by Lewis’s later mistake in Canada (and the one by Nico, that no-one ever mentions), but this shows how far Ferrari are willing to push, as always, to see what they can get away with.
Does anyone know how the re-fueling tech who was injured is?
Why does everyone, up and down the pit lane use a real person to release, and Ferrari not?
Because it works…
Raikkonen deserves a BIG penalty (HUGE CASH and grid penalty) for what he did, as we all saw from onboard he left early, seriously putting someones life in jeopardy, and Massa SHOULD have come in for a drive through or 10 second stop/go.
Anything else just shows Max really thinks ‘Ferrari are the most important team in formula 1′- his words not mine.
I am appalled.
PS, I thought Massa drove brilliantly, other than his disregard for the pit safety rules, until I heard him blame Sutil!
I think in the next race everyone should drive through the pit flat out, and just say’ I never hit anyone’.
For those who suggest that Massa shouldn’t have been punished in any way because it was a team error:
Massa is a part of the team. As such, he should have been punished for it in the form of a drive-through penalty.
I find it’s ridiculous that Massa blamed Sutil for the pit lane incident. It’s an immature and arrogant response on his part. Why is Sutil meant to calmly drive down the pitlane expecting to stand on the anchors to let the Ferrari past? Is it because he drives a Ferrari and therefore has more apparent pedigree? i just find that after an excellent race from the Brazilian, he tainted it with a stupid statement like that. It reminds me of the old Massa, the immature mistake prone racer with a knack for speed. Only difference is his has fixed his mistakes extremely well!
I don’t understand how Massa can possibly be guilty of the infraction. The infraction was “unsafe release from a pit stop”, this is impossible for a driver to commit unless they hop out of the car and do the lollypop thing themselves.
The video of the incident is up on Youtube for anyone that missed it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzv5Wmn1VOk
@ Steven Roy at 1.53am
So although it seems I may be plagiarist (albeit unintentionally), I am in good company
Keith: “But I agree a stiffer punishment is needed for Massa. A five place grid penalty would be alright, but there’s no reason why they couldn’t have imposed a time or drive-through penalty for this race.”
If in this same situation will be McLaren team in future you still will be go for a punishment of this sort?
For Brazilian supporters it´s quite difficult to understand wy someone would think Massa deserved to be punished.
The only way to understand that is to put in the other place. If we imagine that it was Schumacher in Massa´s Driving place.
This may be an issue. But there was many others. Like the dust, the plastic in Kubica´s car, the narrow pitlane (Massa could choice almost to hit Sutil or the the Mercedes pace car parked in the right), two mechanics were hit (a Red Bull one too, probably because of the dust in the pit lane) and finally all the circuit that is the worst combination off Barcelona, Hungry, trying to mimic Monaco.
yeah i agree, but i knew this was going to happen the moment they announced that the incident involving car number two was going to be investigated after the race. while i wouldnt go far as to say this is typical FIA favouratism towards Ferrari, these things do leave a rather bad taste in the mouth and take away from a almost flawless victory by Massa. Ferrari needs to stop making such amatuer mistakes.
gregoff,
Come on. Any team that does this should be penalized for it. McLaren has been penalized plenty of times over the past couple of seasons, often for things that have gone less punished or even unpunished for other teams. (I.E. Renault “inappropriately possessing” McLaren I.P., etc.)
Credit to the FIA for not penalising Massa and destroying a race he won from when he grabbed it by the throat from when he qualified P1 onwards. As for Brundle & co. to lament the fact he was not penalised for the remainder of the race , to me reflects badly on how they would accept any win by McLaren , no matter how. Nick on #15 , to quote your comment about Massa “The guy can’t drive well at all unless on pole position ..” , you must have missed the Hungarian GP ? I think Massa is doing brilliantly , he continues to raise his game race after race , (to the extent he even made Lewis catch a Flu this week-end ?)- just wish the same could be said about Ferrari in their overall strategy / pit stops and reliability , quite worrying.
The problem is consistency with the punishments metted out by the FIA. Massa and Ferrari broke the rules by releasing the car when it was not safe to do so.
But how can the fine or DQ or grid penalty change, depending on the mood of the stewards? It’s crazy - either be draconian or have “token” punishments, one or the other.
I’d love to be a fly on the wall at the post-valencia drivers meetings. This kind of radical swing in what penalties are awarded doesn’t help the drivers one bit.
This kind of thing used to happen in the 80’s, then there would be a FIA regs change, then the FIA would behave itself and be more on an even keel; for a while.
This kind of inconsistency does no favours for Formula One at all.
“But what the FIA unquestionably got wrong was delaying the decision until after the race.”
Well, as Max was on holidays, was so dificult for the stewards to contact him!
i knew something dodgy was going on when they said they’ll “investigate AFTER the race” despite half the race being left to run.
I can not read any comments beyond no. 50. When I click on page 2 or “show all” it just takes me back to the f1fanatic homepage. I have tried with Firefox 3 and IE 7.
Let’s face it , Massa won the race fair and square. There are dozens of similar incidents this year , now suddenly because it is Massa/Ferrari leading Hamilton/McLaren , commentators and the many agrieved supporters cry foul ?
I for one appreciated Massa’s brilliant driving. And yes, he blew them all away. That however, does not dimish the fact that a rule was broken and he should have been given a drive through penalty. It would not have been fair but a lot of penalties have not been fair this year. It would be nice to have some consistency.
What occured was dangerous, and that is the whole point.
Massa should have received a drive through penalty.
The presidence was set in the earlier GP2 race when the same infringement of safety rule happened.
I wonder if the same punishment (a telling off) would have been given to Mclaren if it was them who acted in a dangerous manner.
I am disappointed with the FIA’s handling of this.
Paige:
Come on. Any team that does this should be penalized for it. McLaren has been penalized plenty of times over the past couple of seasons, often for things that have gone less punished or even unpunished for other teams. (I.E. Renault “inappropriately possessing” McLaren I.P., etc.)
i know that. But i think a drive trough penalty, 5 grid penalty or time penalty for Massa is a very wrong idea of punishment. The driver did not do something that was wrong… And i think in last season we where shown a couple of FIA decison that was on favor of Hamilton and no one was going to put a article about it…
FIA is always changing the punishment to it’s own judgment and that is the fact from last couple seasons. The question is if Massa did get some sort of advantage thanks to earlier start from pits? Sutil was pretty ahead of him when he was starting and the situation was not that dangerous. The FIA judged that they no right to manipulate the fight for World Championsip and ony get attention on that problem. If this will happen often the teams have to think about the risk of bigger punishment…
Get done the racing on track and let the drivers to fight for overall win no some sort of judges from FIA.
I am amazed anybody is thinking ferrari is being better treated, they are going to pay a fine for the same action that has been done for other teams even this same season, and other people hasn´t pay anything. As the outcome was the same as other occasions (nothing happened) this time ferrari are paying the duck
its funny how these arguments always descend into a ferrar+fia vs mclaren affair, that is what i love about the sport though, everyone is so absolutely passionate about everything
Slightly off topic, but Keith you haven’t discussed Kimi’s engine failure at all. It seems it was his fault, and not regular Ferrari’s reliability. This news is from the official website. Take a look
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2008/798/576.html
Teamorders, I don’t believe it’s Massa being PERSONALLY guilt… but the thing is that, as we only see one person crossing the finish line onboard the car, we tend to forget that a lot of people is making it happen. The pilot has a team of people and a set of equipment built around him to push him to victory. It is debatable, however, if the penalisation should be directed at the team or at the driver. But I think that if the FIA wants (for whatever reason) to let the incident go unpunished, they should have the guts to just do so, instead of “punishing” the team with an “huge” € 10.000
Sumedh - thanks for the tip
Diseased rat - have emailed you about your problem
I think for the first time common sense has prevailed when giving out a penalty: it would have been absolutely shocking if Massa would have been forced to concede his penalty for something as trivial as that.
No damage was done, no time was really lost.
For clarification here’s Stefano Domenicali explaining how Ferrari’s pit release system works.
In Massa’s case presumably no-one at Ferrari was holding the button to delay the car’s release because of Sutil going past.
I am seriously unimpressed with the way the FIA has handled this. The stewards delayed the decision after the race despite it being obvious that the release was unsafe. The message declaring that might as well have added that Ferrari were going to be given no significant penalty regardless of the visual evidence.
Matters are not helped by the seriously inconsistent way that punishments have previously been handed out for this type of regulation breach. However, the regulations are clear in that there are only four possible punishments for this incident: a drive-through penalty, a 10-second stop/go penalty, a 25-second post-race penalty or a 10-place grid drop. There is no provision whatsoever for a fine to be imposed. (Yes, the FIA have issued fines before, but only when the driver got a DNF immediately afterwards).
If Ferrari did not deserve punishment for the incident, why were they fined? If they did deserve punishment, why didn’t they receive one of the punishments that the regulations say should be given for that type of incident?
One thing has always been true over the years Ferrari
= FIA.
The rest of the world needs to understand that and we will stop visiting doctors with heart problems and raised blood pressures.
There’s one thing that I find quite disturbing and explains why people like Ferrari get away with murder and that is the blind cult-like loyalty that people have to such an extent that they willingly say Massa was right to break the rules as long as he is in a Ferrari but everyone else must be punished.
You all need to check yourselves. Rules are there to guarantee compliance by EVERYONE and NOT for Ferrari to choose which ones to follow…
I am glad you turned up here Alianora because yu are the only person I know who actually knows the FIA rules.
Those of you who say other similar things have gone unpunished in the past are missing the point. The stewards decided this one was dangerous. As soon as they decided it was dangerous they have to give one of the penalties Alianora has listed above. Their own rules do not allow them to do what they have done.
Focus on the facts and forget whether Massa drove well or what would have happened if a McLaren had done the same thing. The facts are the stewards decided it was dangerous and therefore had to give either a drive-through penalty, a 10-second stop/go penalty, a 25-second post-race penalty or a 10-place grid drop. But as they have done in the past they invented a new penalty and as in the past when they have invented a new penalty Ferrari benefitted.
I think the Raikkonen thing is different in that it was simply driver error. The guy anticipated the green light because the fuel rig man pressed the button to say he had released the