Should Ferrari get a penalty?
A lot of discussion went on during the live blog about the Ferrari drivers swapping positions in the closing phase of the race. Kimi Raikkonen clearly backed off his pace to let Felipe Massa past.
There were some who felt this deserved a penalty. Team orders are supposedly illegal under article 39.1 of the Sporting Regulations which reads:
Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.
However, as I wrote a few weeks ago, many teams have gotten around this rule in the past simply by not issuing their instructions over the radio.
What Ferrari did today was no different to how Lewis Hamilton breezed past Heikki Kovalainen at Hockenheim, or how Robert Kubica passed Nick Heidfeld at Montreal. Just as they went unpunished, so should Ferrari today. Raikkonen was merely returning the favour Massa did for him at Interlagos last year - which also went unpunished.
It seems to me that the FIA simply cannot enforce the rule banning team orders. Should they scrap it then? Perhaps, but at least the rule in its current form may prevent teams from more overt and unsporting team orders in some situations - blocking rival drivers, for example.
The only thing that struck me as odd about the Ferrari swap was how blatant it was. At Montreal and Hockenheim the chasing driver (Kubica and Hamilton respectively) was much quicker than his team mate. Today Raikkonen surrendered a lead of almost nine seconds to let Massa past.
All the same, I don’t think Ferrari deserve a punishment. Today’s race was pretty dull. The last thing we need is the stewards getting involved yet again.
More on team orders: F1’s unwritten rules: team orders edition
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Again, this was hugely different to how Hamilton breezed past Kovalainen. And for that matter how Kubica struggled past Heidfeld.
Massa was a lot slower than Raikkonen. Raikkonen practically had to park his car to let Massa by.
Still I don’t see why this should be punished. It’s disgraceful for Massa (and Raikkonen), but that’s about it.
Not. Do you remember Germany GP? Kovalainen let pass Hamilton.
I’d like to see it punished, but we all know it never will be, and would never even cross the steward’s minds. I think looking down our noses on Kimi and Felipe with pity is punishment enough.
i saw nothing wrong in that move; if there were Kovalainen and Hamilton in such situation im sure Heikki would let Lewis by. Cause F1 is also about team work its not only about driver against driver.
It was a pretty classless move, but not really punishable.
A few races back Hamilton has a clearly faster car than Kimi, cuts corner after being pushed off, and lets Kimi past, passes him too soon for the stewards likng ( he would have passed him sooner or later) and gets a 25 second penalty for gaining an advantage( his real advantage was having a quicker car). However letting your team mate pass by obviously slowing when they have been struggling to match your pace all race is perfectly acceptable and not giving them an advantage. By allowing this sort of inconsistency is turning people off FI, it really is farcical now.
Totally sensible thing to do for Ferrari, I’ve no problem with it.
I think the rule should be abolished anyway… F1 is both a driver and a team game (which makes it quite interesting, and unique) so let’s just remove the grey areas and allow team orders again, even if we do get the odd Melbourne/A1-Ring moments!
Ferrari are no fun anymore. They could have entertained the crowd by swapping positions with some Marcel Marceau-like miming in the pit-lane. (stuck fuel hose, mechanic tripping over tyre, forgetting the tyre a la the Irvine incident)
I don’t think Ferrari should be punished here, but what’s the point of banning team orders (ie explicitly saying in the rules that they are not allowed)?
When would a driver get punished over this rule?
There is a sense in which,whilst the tactic is understandable,it carries a ‘burden of injustice’ in this race having regard to steward’s interventions earlier this year. To permit an obviously slower car and
driver to pass,with a view to maintaining a championship possibility,is at the least something of a contradiction to the aims of the sport.
I would have been happier to see Massa first or second on his own merit. I guess he also would have been happier
I agree, but IMHO “team orders move was impossible to punish” would be more accurate. Also I think that if McLaren had done it so blatantly and so close to the championship’s end, they would have been punished.
Hamilton was told in Monaco 07 not to push Alonso. No penalties there.
I don’t remember hearing any orders on the radio this race, so I think this is a non-issue.
I’m not sure Ferrari shouldn’t get some kind of ‘team’ penalty for those orders, Kimi was clearly the faster driver today, unlike Kovi at germany where in truth Hamilton not only passed him but everyone including Massa with ease.
What will be interesting is if Hamilton at Brazil was to fall into 6th place and 30 seconds behind Kovi with 2 laps remaining due to say a puncture, if Kovi then slowed to let Hamilton pass - would the FIA punish McLaren and Hamilton? I believe they would but i’m biased. What is everyone elses view?
Yes! Swapping 2nd and 3rd is as much “affecting the result” as who finishes first. It’s against the rules and both Ferrari’s should get a 10-place grid penalty at the next race.
The Hamilton/Kovalainen move was nothing like what happened today. Then, Hamilton was significantly quicker, Kovalainen just got out of the way. The proof being how easily Massa and Piquet were also passed.
Today we saw Raikkonen slowing down for fifteen laps! And then then had to put it in neutral to get Massa past.
So blatent, and about as clear-cut rule breaking as you can get. Considering McLaren got investigated for the 2007 Monaco Grand Prix then Ferrari should get investigated for this one…
They won’t, obviously. But if the rules had any meaning, and if the stewards had any sense, they would.
This also raises the question about Hungary 2007, why was the McLaren team punished in qualifying? Hamilton didn’t let Alonso pass and then Alonso reacted by holding Hamilton up and yet the team got punished for it but why exactly? Knowing the FIA they would have punished Kimi had he not let Massa overtake, I really believe they want Massa to be champion and will do everything legal or ‘illegal’ to achive that! The Boudais penalty last week was a joke!
Twister: that would be an incredible scenario and yeah I think McLaren would be punished for bringing the sport into disrepute. Which Ferarri of course can never do.
But there werent any orders! And if there were they would be punished by now. What do you expected after hearing Kimi saying that he knows what to do? That hes going to ram into Hamiltons back?
Well said, David ! ! Atleast that would have livened up an otherwise boring race.
BTW, Keith : Why don’t you have a poll alongwith this topic. My opinion; NO PENALTY
Kimi made it pretty clear that he wasn’t ordered to do it (unlike Barrichello in Austria) and that he knew it was best for the team. These kind of team tactics are perfectly welcome at this stage of the season, and the title of this article made me shudder!
On the basis that, for right or wrong, the rule exists, shouldn’t the stewards at least be investigating if the rule has been broken or not. Other incidents during the year have been subject to enquiry after the race presumably on the basis that the stewards needed time to look at them. Do they actually know as soon as the race is finished if Ferrari gave any team orders either before or during the race. Do they monitor all the conversations between drivers and Teams during the race.
No, obviously not.
No penalties, even if, the FIA won’t do that. But Massa’s post race interview was funny, he said, I caught up with Kimi and overtook him.
@Shostak.. it appears you didn’t read the article.
Although this article is sort of pointless, like punching the air to bring down a high flying aircraft.
Ferrari should have the book thrown at them without question. Team orders are illegal and it throws the sport into disrepute yet again.
The cases you site above, as I recall, are quite different in that Kubica was on a different strategy to Heidfeld in Canada, and the same goes for the Lewis and Heiki incidents. Therefore it is my opinion that there is room for manoeuvre.
With today’s blatant Ferrari antics and rule transgression, it is clear to see that Ferrari are brazen and have no fear of repercussions. Kimi and Massa where on the same strategy today. It’s disgusting appalling and it’s a travesty. The rule should not be scrapped but simply enforced. Kimi as much conceded, all be it inadvertently in the post race conference, he had to move over for the team as he had nothing to loose or gain. And if Ferrari deny this, then both their cars data and pit radio should be made public. Lets face it the drivers looked embarrassed.
Perhaps another “booo Ferrari” is in order!
The FIA should scrap the rule banning team orders, on the proviso that any such swappings are examined on a case by case basis.
I think it’s hard to argue that in a situation to keep a title fight alive or as close as possible a team switching its drivers (without the need for the embarrassing way Ferrari did it today) is completely 100% understandable in the final few races of a season.
Likewise I think regardless of where you are in the season if you have one driver on a heavy fuel strategy (or is just plain slow) and is holding up the teams other driver directly behind then the swap is absolutely fine - the team should not have to cut off its nose to shoot itself in the foot, if you see what I mean.
The rule was introduced because Ferrari went too far, and in a season when they were absolutely dominant and already had a huge points lead with Schumacher more or less untouchable, even though it was still pretty early in the season. To switch the drivers then was just taking the mickey a bit, even though it was Ferrari’s prerogative to do what they wanted.
To ban the first two because of this is not only silly, it’s proven impossible to do. I know then you get into problems of grey areas and it being a decision by some faceless stewards, but I think it would be better than what we have currently - these “nudge nudge wink wink” team orders that are banned and yet circumventable.
From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7678482.stm
Massa says:
“I was strong enough to catch and pass [Raikkonen] and that was the best part of the race for me - but it was not enough.”
Who, exactly, is he kidding?
Great race for Hamilton. Flawless execution from McLaren. That car must be a pleasure to drive.
I think some people are upset with todays “team order” because Kimi is not one that would fake like an Italian football player and pretend to brake to late, going wide, or something like that. He is Finnish, and this is how he do it. He wouldn’t do anything to destroy Massa’s chance for WDC, but at the moment he don’t give a rats *** about Ferrari’s reputation. He would do it like this even if it could cost him the next years seat.
And for those who cry about team orders. F1 is a team sport. Every team has to have two cars. Of course there will be team orders. Anything else would go against all form of common sense.
Massa really needed the points as obvious by the race pace…he was actually lighter than Kimi. If only Ferrari had fixed Kimi’s problems earlier in the year instead of focusing on Massa.
No penalty should be given, because its a team sport, but at the same time you cannot make a rule then apply it whenever you feel like it.
Lets keep the racing alive!
If people want to talk about blatant team orders, why not talk about how McLaren decided who would win 2 consecutive races at Jerez 1997 and Melbourne 1998? It seems that the anti-Ferrari, pro-McLaren group conveniently forget these incidents, which happened way before Ferrari’s Austria 2002 farce (as did Senna letting Berger past at the Japanese GP fwiw).
Having said that, all forms of team orders should be allowed imo.
No.
kimi had to go so slow for massa to catch him, that i thought at one ponit he would have to park the car and have a nap while he waited for massa.
if massa is that off the pace in brazil, then he can forget it!!
Nick, you mentioned the fact that Ferrari didn’t fix Kimi’s problems aarlier. Well fact is Kimi hates testing. Ferrari made the mistake of believing Kimi was a driver in the same mold as Schumacher, and then allowed him too many liberties. I think they have learned that he must drive the car during tests and have put him on a very busy test schedule for the coming year.
@Rohan
Ferrari have always had a number one and two driver all their years of racing.
I don’t think it deserved a penalty, but you expect a defending world champion to at least make massa desrve the points, even if raikkonen isn’t in the title hunt himself.
As far as I know team orders were not disallowed then. They are now.
Navs
He must say fake stuff to press; otherwise Ferrari would have been investigated after the race ( Although, Ferrari being investigated is unlikely, Why take a risk??)
Remember Monaco ‘07 Lewis’s comments led to Mclaren being probed
@Oliver : “Well fact is Kimi hates testing.”
Is there an interview or article where this is made clear? I’ve seen him admit that he is “lazy,” but I’d like to see something concrete on your specific claim around him hating testing. Thanks!
@Sumedh
Point. But I think comments similar to what RAI made would have been ok.
RAI himself could have been a little classier and made the move a little more subtle, but can’t really blame him.
Interesting series of intelligent comments, Keith, the site gets better and better.
You are never going to stop two-car team drivers manipulating results to their own teams advantage if the situation is as it was today. No matter what rules apply to such behaviour. Nevertheless, it is interesting to speculate that had highly questionable punishments like those against Hamilton at Spa and more particularly Bourdais at Fuji not taken place, Hamilton would already be champion.
This years championship will go down as one of the most controversial ever. Just like 2007.
Im a Mclaren supporter so i obviously wouldnt argue if ferrari got punished. However i do think that its a silly rule in this case as of course there are going to be code words or agreements before the race to avoid getting penalised. After all thats what “team” is all about and why shouldnt they be able to work as a team?
I did a have a little smile when Felipe claimed all credit for passing Kimi in the press conference to cover their backs.
No penalty. Not that the FIA would anyway..
I forget, so maybe someone can help. What date exactly was the team orders rule ban brought in? Keith’s previous blog mentioned 2002, but is there a more precise date? Therefore, lets try keep the passionate allegations and counter allegations to incidents after 2002. This makes sense don’t you think!
I had to get up at 2.30 am to watch the GP live. It was obvious to me once the grid positions were known, that Raikkonen would concede his position to Massa. What was so appalling was the blatant way in which he did it. Ferrari may deny there were explicit team orders (and I don’t agree with this rule) but there was very obviously an ‘understanding’ and the manoeuvre was undoubtedly a breach of the current rules.
I agree with some commentators that had the same manoeuvre been carried out by any team other than Ferrari then there would have been a Stewards Enquiry. It’s not surprising that the FIA are now known Ferrari International Assistance.
When a driver blatently allows a team mate through it is not racing, and obviously giving an advantage so should not be allowed - I have never agreed with it even when it advantaged drivers/teams I support. IMHO it is not racing - the fastest best driver/car package should decided the result.
They both drive for Ferrari as much as they do for themselves. I don’t see any team orders there but mutual understanding between them and that is the way it should be in a team.
I was quite comfortable with the way they passed but for sure Massa should have shown some more pace. Even after the pass he slowed down Kimi and gave Alonso an outside chance to pass him .
Having said that I believe that team orders should stay banned. At least we would be free from such crap that has been going on in the World Rally Championship for the last 2 races.
Even Hamilton has come out to say it was okay. I know Mclaren have been punished a lot for frivolous reasons, but no point going on and on about this one. Ferrari did the right thing. Kimi just wanted it to be known that he helped Massa. But in Brazil last year Massa did the hand over in a very subtle way. This also happened in several races last year.
Ferrari did 100% ok, however if it was Mclaren, for sure there would be a stewards inquest by now
No, There need not be a penalty for Ferrari
Not the FIA should punish Mass, but I really think that Raikkonen should tar and feather Massa for his outrageous remarks in the post race press conference.
Geez, “it was the best time for me in the race, I was quite strong and then I caught him and I passed him”. That’s Massa’s way of saying “thank you for putting the handbrake on for 15 laps just so I could pass”? Raikkonen must have felt like he was slapped in the face with a closed fist when he heard that.
I am 100% in favor of team orders, which have been practiced since the beginning of the sport. The only reason why this is an issue now is because the FIA enjoys reserving the right to meddle with race results and judge things right or wrong. Also, I would blame it on the commercial exploitation of Formula One which caused viewership to expand, making them more accountable to newer/casual fans who don’t understand that 2nd drivers used to have to jump out of their cars for the 1st driver. I believe Formula One has traditionally been a race between different machinery, not just drivers. With or without Raikkonen moving over, McLaren demonstrated they had the quickest car in China, and Ferrari came 2nd. But the FIA is bowing to a very new idea that machinery doesn’t matter–it’s all about the driver–hence the rules about team orders and turning Formula One and everything else into a spec series.
18th of March 1998 - http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1964457264__18_03_1998_WMSC.pdf http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns01513.html
But the FIA forgot all about that by 2002, when they banned them again after the Austria incident.
Massa saying he passed Raikonenn was clearly funny, but I guess he had to make that comment to make sure there was no inquiry. Mclaren were investigated last year in Monaco only because Lewis complained about it.
Also when were teams orders banned exactly? I remember watching 98 Austrian GP, at the last stages Schumacher was 4th and Irvine was 3rd. Martin Brundle and Murray Walker was chatting about how ferrari can move MS up to 3rd without making it so obvious. Martin Brundle said Irvine having brake problems was a good excuse and Ferrari said in the race that Irvine was having brake problems. If teams orders were banned in 2003, why then Ferrari would be thinking of excuses at that time?
About teams orders, I have no problem with any form of teams orders, blocking, moving aside etc.
its a team sport. end of story.
Kimi did the decent thing & let Massa get the maximum possible points, I’ve got no problem with it.
It’s understandable at this point in the season.