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	<title>Comments on: Should Ferrari get a penalty?</title>
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	<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/</link>
	<description>F1 Fanatic - The Formula 1 Blog with F1 news, pictures, video, comment and analysis</description>
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		<title>By: Brar</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-9/#comment-221664</link>
		<dc:creator>Brar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221664</guid>
		<description>Mosley make that law to avoid another Austria case.

The unwrited law now is that team orders are allowed ina same cases as when you have less points then the leader.

For sure you need to switch the law or  give the penalty. There was plenty of time for a competent lawier like M.Mosley to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mosley make that law to avoid another Austria case.</p>
<p>The unwrited law now is that team orders are allowed ina same cases as when you have less points then the leader.</p>
<p>For sure you need to switch the law or  give the penalty. There was plenty of time for a competent lawier like M.Mosley to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-9/#comment-221629</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221629</guid>
		<description>The reason they did not receive a penalty was due to no evidence of any team orders.

The drivers acted on their own free will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason they did not receive a penalty was due to no evidence of any team orders.</p>
<p>The drivers acted on their own free will.</p>
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		<title>By: Yiannaki</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-9/#comment-221602</link>
		<dc:creator>Yiannaki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221602</guid>
		<description>The problem is how to define team orders &amp; how to define oh I let him pass as I have no reason not to. That&#039;s the real problem - As for the examples given, well they happened so much earlier in the season that it was imposible to say 100% that they let him pass as at the time it was not obvious of the outcome. Here we are 1 race from the end of the season &amp; it was damn well clear what happened. 

That&#039;s my opinion &amp; anyone may agree or disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is how to define team orders &amp; how to define oh I let him pass as I have no reason not to. That&#8217;s the real problem &#8211; As for the examples given, well they happened so much earlier in the season that it was imposible to say 100% that they let him pass as at the time it was not obvious of the outcome. Here we are 1 race from the end of the season &amp; it was damn well clear what happened. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s my opinion &amp; anyone may agree or disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: Dane</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-8/#comment-221542</link>
		<dc:creator>Dane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221542</guid>
		<description>I dont follow either ferrari or mclaren, but am sick of their whinging fans. The FIA should get rid of both teams to give everyone else a little peace &amp; quiet</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dont follow either ferrari or mclaren, but am sick of their whinging fans. The FIA should get rid of both teams to give everyone else a little peace &amp; quiet</p>
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		<title>By: zerogee</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-8/#comment-221540</link>
		<dc:creator>zerogee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221540</guid>
		<description>lewism made a really good point about pit-stops etc.

When you look at the pit strategies, they are effectively team orders - the driver the team is &#039;supporting&#039; gets the better strategy. In Schumacher&#039;s day, he got the better *everything*. That&#039;s team orders.

Felipe was lighter and still didn&#039;t outqualify Kimi so the team orders (in the sense I outline above) were broken before the race even started. Felipe is completely overwhelmed, in my opinion, and certainly will be in Brazil.

Anyway, the whole subject is moot - if the FIA didn&#039;t punish McLaren for it (ref Germany) they won&#039;t be punishing anyone. Fine with me.

As for the clumsiness of the switch - Fangio changed cars for goodness&#039; sake. Nobody moans about that. All we focus on now is the job he did to get that car back to the front. Anyone here wish to decry Fangio? Probably not! :-) Point being that the FIA have no interest in banning &#039;team orders&#039; because team orders are such a nebulous thing unless teams are caught on the radio saying &#039;move over.&#039; If memory serves, Williams did a deal with some team or other in at Jerez in 97, letting somebody past Villeneuve to make sure Villeneuve finished (I could be making that up). Nobody heard a peep.

The team orders thing really came up because of a high-profile team, high-profile driver made a high-profile switch that angered bookies. Frankly, if you bet on F1, you need your head read.

The debate here is interesting - a number of Hamilton fans don&#039;t  have a problem with the switch, so I don&#039;t think that it&#039;s particularly clear-cut...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lewism made a really good point about pit-stops etc.</p>
<p>When you look at the pit strategies, they are effectively team orders &#8211; the driver the team is &#8216;supporting&#8217; gets the better strategy. In Schumacher&#8217;s day, he got the better *everything*. That&#8217;s team orders.</p>
<p>Felipe was lighter and still didn&#8217;t outqualify Kimi so the team orders (in the sense I outline above) were broken before the race even started. Felipe is completely overwhelmed, in my opinion, and certainly will be in Brazil.</p>
<p>Anyway, the whole subject is moot &#8211; if the FIA didn&#8217;t punish McLaren for it (ref Germany) they won&#8217;t be punishing anyone. Fine with me.</p>
<p>As for the clumsiness of the switch &#8211; Fangio changed cars for goodness&#8217; sake. Nobody moans about that. All we focus on now is the job he did to get that car back to the front. Anyone here wish to decry Fangio? Probably not! <img src='http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Point being that the FIA have no interest in banning &#8216;team orders&#8217; because team orders are such a nebulous thing unless teams are caught on the radio saying &#8216;move over.&#8217; If memory serves, Williams did a deal with some team or other in at Jerez in 97, letting somebody past Villeneuve to make sure Villeneuve finished (I could be making that up). Nobody heard a peep.</p>
<p>The team orders thing really came up because of a high-profile team, high-profile driver made a high-profile switch that angered bookies. Frankly, if you bet on F1, you need your head read.</p>
<p>The debate here is interesting &#8211; a number of Hamilton fans don&#8217;t  have a problem with the switch, so I don&#8217;t think that it&#8217;s particularly clear-cut&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Deeza</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-8/#comment-221537</link>
		<dc:creator>Deeza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221537</guid>
		<description>I really can&#039;t believe some people actually think Ferrari should be punshed.

Bravo I say to Raikkonen for supporting his team mate and his bid to become World Champion.

Like antonyob said, its a team sport.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really can&#8217;t believe some people actually think Ferrari should be punshed.</p>
<p>Bravo I say to Raikkonen for supporting his team mate and his bid to become World Champion.</p>
<p>Like antonyob said, its a team sport.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-8/#comment-221530</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221530</guid>
		<description>What a penalty for Ferrari, that is not permitted</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a penalty for Ferrari, that is not permitted</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-8/#comment-221526</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221526</guid>
		<description>@Patrickl
Yes wrongly accused, I scrolled back up while typing my post and picked the wrong name.

Its still amazes me people are still venting posting on this matter. I must admit the stewards have made it rather an uneventful race for us,so there is some frustration as we have nothing much to write about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Patrickl<br />
Yes wrongly accused, I scrolled back up while typing my post and picked the wrong name.</p>
<p>Its still amazes me people are still venting posting on this matter. I must admit the stewards have made it rather an uneventful race for us,so there is some frustration as we have nothing much to write about.</p>
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		<title>By: dmw</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-8/#comment-221523</link>
		<dc:creator>dmw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221523</guid>
		<description>What difference does it make if the command to give up position is made during the race or if its made before hand, a week prior, in a team briefing?  

The rule is really in place to prevent the kind of BS theatrics Ferrari did at races ends when they were totally dominant.  Those were objectionable for being obvious and late. But I also question how obvious it is for Kimi to drop almost nine seconds to do a switch. 

Massa has received his penalty in the form of the shame.  I think this result will have an important result: even if Massa wins the title, Kimi has shown that he is still the faster driver.  And if Massa cannot cleanly beat his teammate in Brazil on speed, after his swoon in the last 3 races, he will give up any claim to being the lead or co-equal driver in the team in 09.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What difference does it make if the command to give up position is made during the race or if its made before hand, a week prior, in a team briefing?  </p>
<p>The rule is really in place to prevent the kind of BS theatrics Ferrari did at races ends when they were totally dominant.  Those were objectionable for being obvious and late. But I also question how obvious it is for Kimi to drop almost nine seconds to do a switch. </p>
<p>Massa has received his penalty in the form of the shame.  I think this result will have an important result: even if Massa wins the title, Kimi has shown that he is still the faster driver.  And if Massa cannot cleanly beat his teammate in Brazil on speed, after his swoon in the last 3 races, he will give up any claim to being the lead or co-equal driver in the team in 09.</p>
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		<title>By: Too Good</title>
		<link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/19/should-ferrari-get-team-orders-penalty/comment-page-8/#comment-221515</link>
		<dc:creator>Too Good</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11017#comment-221515</guid>
		<description>Agreed that the &quot;Switch&quot; was executed in most clumsy manner by Ferrari and even though I have always been Anti-Ferrari person, I wouldn&#039;t blast Ferrari for trying to Retain &quot;Both&quot; the titles. 
Kimi returning Massa&#039;s Favor is not bad at all.

And well now because &quot;Lewis&#039;s&quot; Championship is in Question there is so much hue and cry about the &quot;switch&quot;

When It was clear in 2005 after Montoya returned from Two race injury break, he had pretty much limited to play Second fiddle to &quot;Kimi&#039;s&quot; campaign. 
Only when Engine Penalties forced Kimi to start race at back of grid did JPM go for wins, not to mention If you had seen his lap times, he did everything possible to hold the field back and let Kimi gain ground as much as possible. Obvious event was in SPA when McLaren Pitwall effectively helped Kimi to assume race lead by cutting 30+ second lead that JPM had. That Antonia Pizzonia took JPM out further helped Kimi.

Nick Heidfeld&#039;s contribution to Kubica&#039;s maiden win is well documented so , won&#039;t reiterate that. but given that Alonso Broke down ultimately in that race.If Nick had played Selfish and blocked Kubica as Long as possible it could have been he breaking his duck finally. The look on his face on podium told the complete story. Don&#039;t remember Nick/Robert being grilled by Peter Windsor at that podium about the pass , nor remember &lt;strong&gt;Nick Whining I have number two on my car&lt;/strong&gt; either 

So Team Rules come first Period. 
Its &lt;strong&gt;Only Certain Blessed Souls Break those repeteadly (Monaco, Hungary &#039;07), &lt;/strong&gt;  and still get all sympathy from all sectors media and fans</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed that the &#8220;Switch&#8221; was executed in most clumsy manner by Ferrari and even though I have always been Anti-Ferrari person, I wouldn&#8217;t blast Ferrari for trying to Retain &#8220;Both&#8221; the titles.<br />
Kimi returning Massa&#8217;s Favor is not bad at all.</p>
<p>And well now because &#8220;Lewis&#8217;s&#8221; Championship is in Question there is so much hue and cry about the &#8220;switch&#8221;</p>
<p>When It was clear in 2005 after Montoya returned from Two race injury break, he had pretty much limited to play Second fiddle to &#8220;Kimi&#8217;s&#8221; campaign.<br />
Only when Engine Penalties forced Kimi to start race at back of grid did JPM go for wins, not to mention If you had seen his lap times, he did everything possible to hold the field back and let Kimi gain ground as much as possible. Obvious event was in SPA when McLaren Pitwall effectively helped Kimi to assume race lead by cutting 30+ second lead that JPM had. That Antonia Pizzonia took JPM out further helped Kimi.</p>
<p>Nick Heidfeld&#8217;s contribution to Kubica&#8217;s maiden win is well documented so , won&#8217;t reiterate that. but given that Alonso Broke down ultimately in that race.If Nick had played Selfish and blocked Kubica as Long as possible it could have been he breaking his duck finally. The look on his face on podium told the complete story. Don&#8217;t remember Nick/Robert being grilled by Peter Windsor at that podium about the pass , nor remember <strong>Nick Whining I have number two on my car</strong> either </p>
<p>So Team Rules come first Period.<br />
Its <strong>Only Certain Blessed Souls Break those repeteadly (Monaco, Hungary &#8217;07), </strong>  and still get all sympathy from all sectors media and fans</p>
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