Comments on: Max Mosley and FOTA meet for crunch talks on F1 costs in Geneva http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/ F1 Fanatic - The Formula 1 Blog with F1 news, pictures, video, comment and analysis Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:14:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Pink Peril http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221691 Pink Peril Wed, 22 Oct 2008 01:03:25 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221691 I sincerely hope that the shorter races proposal is just a bargaining chip that FOTA are using. If anything races should be longer and/or more of them(within reason of course, but adding Canada back onto the calendar would help) and testing less. I sincerely hope that the shorter races proposal is just a bargaining chip that FOTA are using.

If anything races should be longer and/or more of them(within reason of course, but adding Canada back onto the calendar would help) and testing less.

]]> By: Keith Collantine http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221659 Keith Collantine Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:26:45 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221659 <strong><a href="/2008/10/21/fia-fota-agreement-teams-proposals-accepted-as-mosley-backs-down-on-kers/" rel="nofollow">FIA-FOTA agreement: Teams’ proposals accepted as Mosley backs down on KERS</a></strong> FIA-FOTA agreement: Teams’ proposals accepted as Mosley backs down on KERS

]]> By: Robert McKay http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221657 Robert McKay Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:09:34 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221657 Three race engines, jaysus h. christ. Does that mean they'll turn down the revs after the first pitstop instead of the second one? Oh, and if they shorten the races I will be fuming. If you're going to build these expensive machines then you should be running them more to get your money's worth!! Three race engines, jaysus h. christ. Does that mean they’ll turn down the revs after the first pitstop instead of the second one?

Oh, and if they shorten the races I will be fuming. If you’re going to build these expensive machines then you should be running them more to get your money’s worth!!

]]> By: beneboy http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221655 beneboy Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:54:29 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221655 DG: "So, after all the debates and name calling at the beginning of the year, Max and Bernie do want to see ‘Customer Cars’, although of course they want everyone to be a ‘Customer’ and they will do the selling." This pretty much covers my opinion of this idea, Max & Bernie see a new way of taking money off the teams so they're going to go for it, all in the name of cost saving. The easiest way to keep the sport accessible to independent teams is to allow them to buy customer engines and/or chassis that they are then allowed to tune to their needs, all at a set maximum cost. All manufacturers would be obliged to supply at least one independent team, if the demand was there. Problem solved. Let's be honest, the big teams will always find new ways to spend money and they will always spend the whole budget regardless of it's size. Unless they limit the budget there will be no cost cutting. Even with a limit the big teams will just get around it by having the work done on one of their road car projects accounts. DG:

“So, after all the debates and name calling at the beginning of the year, Max and Bernie do want to see ‘Customer Cars’, although of course they want everyone to be a ‘Customer’ and they will do the selling.”

This pretty much covers my opinion of this idea, Max & Bernie see a new way of taking money off the teams so they’re going to go for it, all in the name of cost saving.

The easiest way to keep the sport accessible to independent teams is to allow them to buy customer engines and/or chassis that they are then allowed to tune to their needs, all at a set maximum cost.
All manufacturers would be obliged to supply at least one independent team, if the demand was there.

Problem solved.

Let’s be honest, the big teams will always find new ways to spend money and they will always spend the whole budget regardless of it’s size.
Unless they limit the budget there will be no cost cutting.

Even with a limit the big teams will just get around it by having the work done on one of their road car projects accounts.

]]> By: Moe http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221643 Moe Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:09:59 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221643 Thanks Keith, excellent and insightful article as always. I think the manufactures of the cars will simply not agree because what is the points of have e.g. "Honda" car name with a Cosworth engine. I think if The FIA insisted on spec-engines. They will definitely drive car manufactures out of the sport. And maybe this is what Max wants. Maybe is trying to drive car manufacturers out the sport. because to be honest the problem comes from the smaller teams. You can not prevent big teams from spending their money the way they want, it is not going to work and it is ridiculous. Why not let teams group together. Every big team take a smaller team under its wing. Share the engine and chase. and I know this already what is going on right now. But the difference is to make the prices really cheap for the smaller teams. Even better why not make a rule, every car manufacturer in F1 has to have it is own team and an independent team to support this way we will even have more new teams. Ferrari and ToroRoso Mclaren and Force India BMW and a New Team Renault and Redbull Toyota and Williams Honda and a New Team. and I know this sound a bit foolish and optimistic but I hope the day will not come so see spec-engine in all cars. Thanks Keith, excellent and insightful article as always. I think the manufactures of the cars will simply not agree because what is the points of have e.g. “Honda” car name with a Cosworth engine.

I think if The FIA insisted on spec-engines. They will definitely drive car manufactures out of the sport. And maybe this is what Max wants. Maybe is trying to drive car manufacturers out the sport. because to be honest the problem comes from the smaller teams. You can not prevent big teams from spending their money the way they want, it is not going to work and it is ridiculous.

Why not let teams group together. Every big team take a smaller team under its wing. Share the engine and chase. and I know this already what is going on right now. But the difference is to make the prices really cheap for the smaller teams. Even better why not make a rule, every car manufacturer in F1 has to have it is own team and an independent team to support this way we will even have more new teams.

Ferrari and ToroRoso
Mclaren and Force India
BMW and a New Team
Renault and Redbull
Toyota and Williams
Honda and a New Team.

and I know this sound a bit foolish and optimistic but I hope the day will not come so see spec-engine in all cars.

]]> By: donwatters http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221636 donwatters Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:17:35 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221636 A standard engine is not the way to maintain F1's brand identity. I have no doubt the mfgs would drop F1 and spend their dollars in a series like the ALMS/LMS where brand identity is more relevent. A cost cap seems to me to be a self-defeating proposition. Teams will always find a way to skirt it. Much better to limit aero to equalize potential performance. A standard engine is not the way to maintain F1′s brand identity. I have no doubt the mfgs would drop F1 and spend their dollars in a series like the ALMS/LMS where brand identity is more relevent. A cost cap seems to me to be a self-defeating proposition. Teams will always find a way to skirt it. Much better to limit aero to equalize potential performance.

]]> By: Smitty http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221635 Smitty Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:12:06 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221635 I'm all for some of the FIA's proposals, such as the new powertrain for 2013, as fuel efficiency is important, and the engine model does need an update. Personally, I think they should ban refuelling straight away, limit testing distances, and accept FOTA's proposal to supply their engines for €5m/year. Then in the meantime, the teams should work together to develop a model for an advanced powertrain system. Maybe hydrogen-based? F1 should be the testbed of technology - keep it that way. I’m all for some of the FIA’s proposals, such as the new powertrain for 2013, as fuel efficiency is important, and the engine model does need an update.

Personally, I think they should ban refuelling straight away, limit testing distances, and accept FOTA’s proposal to supply their engines for €5m/year.

Then in the meantime, the teams should work together to develop a model for an advanced powertrain system. Maybe hydrogen-based? F1 should be the testbed of technology – keep it that way.

]]> By: Keith Collantine http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221634 Keith Collantine Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:07:11 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221634 Positive but vague signs from Geneva: "<a target="_blank" href="http://www.f1technical.net/news/10876" rel="nofollow">FIA and FOTA reach agreement</a>" Positive but vague signs from Geneva: “FIA and FOTA reach agreement“

]]> By: DG http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221617 DG Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:26:18 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221617 So, after all the debates and name calling at the beginning of the year, Max and Bernie do want to see 'Customer Cars', although of course they want everyone to be a 'Customer' and they will do the selling! I hope FOTA see sense and refuse any form of standardisation anywhere on the cars - and who is in line to make the standard parts? If FOTA give in, it will be obvious to me that Luca is leading them down a dark alley straight into Max and Bernies hands! Of course, FOM and the FIA could do some cost-cutting themselves by not charging so much for a team to enter F1, and the drivers to get superlicences. They could introduce lower fees for the smaller teams (after what happened to SuperAguri). They could cut back on the number of officials who have to travel to every race. They could cut back on the number of official vehicles and motorhomes. I don't think the teams should do anything until they see that the FIA and FOM really mean to cut costs! So, after all the debates and name calling at the beginning of the year, Max and Bernie do want to see ‘Customer Cars’, although of course they want everyone to be a ‘Customer’ and they will do the selling!
I hope FOTA see sense and refuse any form of standardisation anywhere on the cars – and who is in line to make the standard parts? If FOTA give in, it will be obvious to me that Luca is leading them down a dark alley straight into Max and Bernies hands!
Of course, FOM and the FIA could do some cost-cutting themselves by not charging so much for a team to enter F1, and the drivers to get superlicences. They could introduce lower fees for the smaller teams (after what happened to SuperAguri). They could cut back on the number of officials who have to travel to every race. They could cut back on the number of official vehicles and motorhomes.
I don’t think the teams should do anything until they see that the FIA and FOM really mean to cut costs!

]]> By: John Spencer http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/21/max-mosley-and-fota-meet-for-crunch-talks-on-f1-costs-in-geneva/comment-page-2/#comment-221615 John Spencer Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:22:25 +0000 http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=11098#comment-221615 Another thought provoking article from KC. I wonder what Max Moseley thinks separates F1 from other motorsports. Is F1 successful because it is the highest tech, the fastest, or the most expensive? The money involved is certainly part of it, not least because of the fascination with how much flows into the pockets of Bernie (and too a surprising extent, Max). In F1, there has to be an advantage to a team of spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D. It's not possible to ensure that this is always road-relevant. Even if every component except KERS is fixed and regulated, the top teams will spend billions on KERS development to give them that all important half a second, and it's not going to help road cars at all. The bottom line is that Max and Bernie run F1 like an old boys' club, which has been very lucrative for them for decades, but they're both now far too old to adapt F1 to changes in technology, the financial climate and especially the media. Another thought provoking article from KC. I wonder what Max Moseley thinks separates F1 from other motorsports. Is F1 successful because it is the highest tech, the fastest, or the most expensive? The money involved is certainly part of it, not least because of the fascination with how much flows into the pockets of Bernie (and too a surprising extent, Max). In F1, there has to be an advantage to a team of spending hundreds of millions of dollars in R&D. It’s not possible to ensure that this is always road-relevant. Even if every component except KERS is fixed and regulated, the top teams will spend billions on KERS development to give them that all important half a second, and it’s not going to help road cars at all. The bottom line is that Max and Bernie run F1 like an old boys’ club, which has been very lucrative for them for decades, but they’re both now far too old to adapt F1 to changes in technology, the financial climate and especially the media.

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