Max Mosley is wrong. The only split F1 needs is a break away from him

Posted on Author Keith Collantine

Max Mosley told the FOTA teams to run their own championship
Max Mosley told the FOTA teams to run their own championship

Max Mosley has told the world that instead of reaching a compromise with the nine FOTA teams, he thinks they should leave F1:

I say to them: If you want to draw up your own rules, then you can organise your own championship. But we have the Formula 1 championship. We draw up the rules for that. We have been doing that for 60 years and we will continue doing so.

It is difficult to believe that the president of the FIA could seriously be advocating a situation where the governing body?s most successful and popular championship is split into two.

Mario Theissen claims it was Mosley?s suggestion that FOTA place a ??conditional? entry to the 2010 championship, which they did last week.

But by agitating for a split Mosley has played into FOTA?s hands. Their argument that the governance of Formula 1 needs reforming has never looked more credible than when Mosley admitted he would rather see F1 split in two than accept that he might not get everything he wants from this debate.

Unlike Mosley, FOTA have been at pains to avoid threatening a split.

Various F1 correspondents have explored the possibilities of them creating a rival championship ?ǣ many pointing to the Ferrari-backed A1 Grand Prix series as a starting point.

But FOTA has frequently stated its desire to keep its teams in F1 and reach an accommodation with the FIA and F1 owners CVC (represented by Bernie Ecclestone).

It is Mosley who has spurned compromise and failed to reach a consensus with the teams.

Some may be tempted to argue that FOTA are holding Mosley to ransom by refusing to accept his demands. I disagree.

Mosley has stated in the past that he has demanded budget capping because the present teams have refused to commit to Formula 1:

Despite my repeated requests, not a single manufacturer has given us a legally-binding undertaking that it will continue in Formula 1
Max Mosley, in a letter to Luca di Montezemolo, April 2009

The manufacturers and supporting teams are now proposing a deal to keep them in the sport until 2012. So why is Mosley talking about a split instead of sealing the deal?

How a split would destroy F1

Pause for a moment to appreciate the full gravity of what Mosley is suggesting by urging the teams to split from F1.

It would mean F1 casting FOTA?s nine teams aside. These have, in their present guises, contested 2,040 Grands Prix, winning 414 races and 55 drivers and constructors’ championships. They are a vital component of the sport, woven deep into the fabric of its history.

We would have two series ?ǣ one calling itself F1, the other containing all bar one of the teams that contested the previous F1 championship.

Drivers and circuits would be caught in the middle. One series might have Spa and Silverstone, Hamilton and Raikkonen. The other Monza and Suzuka, Alonso and Kubica. And both championships would be incomparably weaker propositions.

What of the fans? Some would follow F1. Some would follow the new championship. And many ?ǣ perhaps most ?ǣ would stop watching. The longer it took the two series to re-unify, the worse it would get.

And the same goes for the sponsors which every year pump billions into F1?s coffers.

This is not conjecture. Exactly the same thing happened with the Indy Car championship. It finally re-united last year after 14 years divided – now a pale shadow of its former glory in every respect.

The teams must stay

The FIA President is proposing a development which would rent the world?s biggest motor racing championship in two. It would do huge damage to international motor racing, perhaps irrevocably ruining it.

Max Mosley is not unaccustomed to criticism. But his failure to come to terms with the teams is a new low. He must not be allowed to drive them out of the sport.

Given a choice between keeping the nine teams, and keeping the FIA president, I’d pick the teams.

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203 comments on “Max Mosley is wrong. The only split F1 needs is a break away from him”

  1. Max doesn’t know what the Indy Racing League is, does he?

    1. i always knew max mosley was a nutcase, but today he’s gone one step ahead and completely proved me correct. I stand vindicated. he’s completely lost in a reality forgotten land. this is the height of lunacy. no responsible head of a international organization would utter such nonsense. what does he mean by saying F1 can do without the nine teams. this is just unbelivable. he has no respect for the chair he holds. the guy must understand that the teams were the ones who put him onto the coveted chair. This is a perfect example of misuse of power & authority. This guy is hell bent upon inflicting incurable wounds on the sport. the way things are moving we might lose the sport forever. isn’t there a voluntary retirement scheme in the FIA? please this man should be kept as far away as possible from f1. first he lost his image, then he lost his son, now he is hell bent on losing the sport. it was very clear from the outset that these decisions were only of max. how can one lunatic be allowed to hold the entire sport at randsom? i’ve long ago realized that online petitions are of no use. we the average f1 fan must do something about this man. i would suggest boycotting the races, be it on the circuits,TV,internet, print media everywhere. why i say this is, the only man who i think is capable of installing some sense into max mosley is bernie. now bernie handles the commercial aspects of f1. so without “us” the average f1 fan, bernie=0, so in such a scenario, max will have to give into bernie’s demands. we all know how greedy & commercial bernie is. so there is no way bernie will put max ahead of his commercial interests. so the only way to save this sport is to completely BOYCOTT it until max gives into bernie’s demand. There is an old chinese proverb:

      “A JOURNEY OF THOUSAND MILES BEGINS WITH A SINGLE STEP”.

      so i’ve taken my first step. i’ll not be watching the turkish gp on tv. so definitely the TRP rating will go down, cuz many of my friends will be joining my boycott, we are about 600 ppl. hope ppl do the same thing. this is to bring the trp rating down. bernie always keeps blabbing tv viewers. he’s gone as far as saying that TV audiences are more important than circuit fans. so this boycott must pinch bernie in his butt. only then he’ll blink.
      please save this wonderful sport or else we’ll lose it forever.

  2. What the hell is drinking Mad-Max?????

    Bufff….i need a “good-normal-race”, and somebody a fast retirement.

    Cheers.

  3. Don’t like Mosley, never have….

    But I like saloon car manufacturers dictating terms in F1 even less than I like the FIA president. Large manufacturers are intrinsically bad for F1. Their agenda is not the purity of racing the best things on four wheels….their agenda in selling their little boxes on wheels. And their obscene marketing budgets distort and corrupt F1. The only pure F1 teams now are Williams, Mclaren and of course Ferrari.

    And so I have to disagree fundamentaly with your argument, Keith. If Renault and BMW and Toyota go….so much the better for F1. The world we live in has changed so fundamentally in the past two years and the collapse of car markets has brought what will one day be seen as a great blessing to F1.

    1. The only pure F1 teams now are Williams, Mclaren and of course Ferrari.

      Ferrari is a car manufacturer and McLaren plan to turn into one…

      1. Ferrari is not a manufacturer like Toyota.

      2. Give over Keith, Ferrari or Mclaren make expensive toys, they are hardly in the ‘mass’ market side of things..lol.

      3. you have to remember Keith that Enzo’s road car practice was just to fund the team. the reality has changed things, but Ferrari is at heart a racing team above anything else…

        Dennis is going the same way after many decades of existence. but it’s the F1 team that will market his exotic supercar brand.

        rather than F1 Renault team parading a Twingo/clio/megane renault F1 sport that has not one nut or bolt in common with a single seater… Renault doesn’t, never had a proper high performance car that shares technology with F1, the Renault Espace F1 doesn’t count same goes for BMW, Toyota, which don’t even have a sports car on offer.

        It would be interesting if we connect the significance of the F1 practice to the development of road cars, especially within the brands that participate in F1.

        Honda’s Vtech injection technology was developed and refined in F1 what else transpired to the average driver over the years that made its debut in F1?

        1. Just a little note about F1’s influence on mass market road cars : Renault came to F1 with a turbo engine and won with it. Then all the others built turbos. And turbo came soon after to the road car market.
          I suppose there are other examples…
          Don’t draw a line between Ferrari, McLaren and the manufacturers : this is big businesses, far larger than racing. There is only one really pure racing team remaining in F1, ant it is Williams.

    2. The sri lankan
      5th June 2009, 0:48

      are you stupid? car manufacturers and their legions of fans are what keeps F1 going. do you really think a die hard fan of toyota( worlds largest car manufacturer) or Bmw will sit there watching Merc and ferrari have ago if the two including renault Leaves? think before writind Gibberish

      1. I was a fanatic of Toyota during its WRC days. I would hate to see it leave F1. But i would certainly love to see the pervert finally leave FIA

      2. Really new to F1, aren’t you?
        In the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s you hardly ever had large manufacturers as full fledged teams in the grid (Renault being the lonely exception). You had, Ferraris, Mclarens, Lotuses, Williams, Tyrrels, Ligiers, Brabhams — and those were the golden years of the sport. That is not to say that I agree with Max. He is a nut case who would rather have a grid full of Mickey Mouse teams as long as he keeps calling the shots. But this idea that you need the big manufacturers to have a good F1 is completely bogus. And just so we are in the same page: There is no such a thing as leagions of Toyota fans in F1 (and that is also true for BMW, Honda and Renaults). Ferrari have fans, Mclaren too. Apart from that, people root for the drivers.

        1. …and we oh so want those golden years back.

      3. I agree entirely with you. When we were driving big Mercs my son and I followed McClaren, then we went on to drive BMW’s and switched loyalties. Now we are back to Mercs and very dissapointed this season.

        Although F1 machines are vastly different from their road car sponsors they still have a huge following and brand loyalty.

    3. Funny thing is i think your arguement is flawed leon. If it wasn’t for the car manfactures, that are in f1, f1 wouldn’t be what it is today. Get rid of all the manufactures, including Ferrari, what will all the teams run for engines and gear boxes.

      The manufactures created the sport to what it is today. They advertise the sport, attract the millions of dollars in sponsorship for F1 in general, at the track, and the tv networks. Far easier to advertise f1 with the names every person in the world recongnises rather then using litespeed???. If the FOTA stick together f1 is dead. The dropping of 9 teams that the entire world know and have come to love will have massive ramifications on every contract bernie and the FIA have. Bernie will go broke overnight as lawsuits will pile up. I hope FOTA leave f1 and max and bernie will be known as the men that destroyed f1. They can start there own series and all the revenue can be distrubuted evenly amongst them. Not to some company. Everybody will follow the teams and drivers they come to know and love before following a name. Superfund, lola etc etc dont have the attraction that Ferrari, Mclaren, BMW, Renault etc etc do.

      1. If it wasn’t for the car manfactures, that are in f1, f1 wouldn’t be what it is today.

        Absolutely right, its about time they returned to just supplying engines and leave the sport to the teams that know how to compete at the highest level. Let the proper on track racing return!

        1. f1 will die without the nine teams. You wont be watching anything on tv as no free to air network would want to cover it. Read the full comment dont just extract one component.

          1. LOL! Yeah, sorry I did read the full comment, I just thought it would be funny to play on that one statement, I forgot the smiley face.

            Anyway. F1 will not die without the nine teams… because F1 will not be without the nine (oh, hold on its 8 teams now, wait, I’ll just check, nope still 8 at the moment) teams.

            The whole point about this stand-off that is being missed, is that it is a stand-off… taking Ferrari’s example as someone has already said, how many times have they threatened to quit, and how many times to they continue to race. This is typical F1 and ok a bit more serious this time, but ultimately will all come out in the wash.

            The only difference here is that maybe some Manufacturers will use this as an excuse to exit, Toyota and Renault I’m thinking… but they were going to go anyway.

  4. Well said, Keith, well said. I cant believe that there are those out there who back this guy when his stance changes at his whim. Mosley needs to be ousted and FOTA needs to be listened to.

  5. Seems more and more like the only interest of Max Mosely is to win the argument and get his way no matter how much harm is done to the sport. It is all very very sad.
    What is Eccelstone and CVC thinking about this? With all the current teams gone away as Mosely urges them to do what will remaim is a second rate championship with second rate teams. How is this ever going to pay for the CVC dept.

  6. Maverick_232
    4th June 2009, 21:01

    Max Mosely – I dont think i could dislike anyone anymore.

    Closely followed by doddery old Bernie.

    Surely this dictatorship has to stop. If not then im sure the final nail in the F1 coffin is not too far away.

  7. I think max has put the final nail in his own coffin,
    Just waiting for Bernie to hammer it in!

    1. Maverick_232
      4th June 2009, 21:06

      Lol….. If only mate!!

  8. this has now gone past F1 it’s just about MAX winning the argument he doesn’t care about the sport & fans he will destroy everything to make a point.

  9. Of course Max needs to be re-elected in September! If by then the F1 nine/ten should have made plenty of negative publicity around the voting FIA members, that Max should be out leaving the way clear for the sport to be put back on the track. That seems to be the only light at the end of this dismal tunnel F1 seems to be driving through.
    As Formula one consistantly surprises me and its fans Max could well be re-elected. There again, I did see McLaren loading some swine aviation fuel into their trucks last Sunday.

  10. when is Max up for re-election? this would be the time for FOTA to back another candidate. dont get me wrong, i thing Max and FOTA both have their own agendas, but actually saying publicly that FOTA should split away from F1 is lunacy. with all respect to the teams looking to enter next year, if FOTA splits, F1 will surely struggle to better GP2.

  11. Absolutely spot on, Keith.
    Some of us remember (& some younger historians will have read ;) )how he got to where he is.
    Some remember the FISA/FOCA war, Balestre & the Maranello agreement which led to the first Concorde Agreement.
    Today has too many similarities to the early 1980’s.
    Max does not care what his new F1 looks like, achieves or if it will last just so long as it is HIS fist holding the reins.

  12. In fairness, Leon, Ferrari and McLaren are hand in glove with two of the largest purveyors of tin boxes in the world. Williams is the only serious stalwart independent in the sport for the last 10 years. They are no different from BMW-Sauber. Cf. Brawn.

    In this case, I think the manufacturers realize that, while a budget cap could save them money, it would destroy the value of their investment in the sport and the investment in their respective brands they make by participating in it.

    This all gives me a queasy reminder of the CART/IRL split. Seeing the great teams and drivers of CART shut out of Indy and eventually forced to crawl back into a 100% oval fully spec series run by a megalomaniac with no interest in racing except when he is checking his account balance made me ill.

    1. Good point mate ! And of course, as others have pointed out, Ferrari is now merely a posh badge for the mighty Fiat empire. And Daimler GMbh ain’t exactly a thoroughbred race co. There’s clearly a balance to be struck here but do you see Montezemolo and Mosley actually stopping strutting their stuff and sitting down to deal…… ?

      I’d like to see Mosley removed pretty smartish…but worry a lot about who we’d get in his place. A case of ‘better the devil you know’ ?

  13. conditional entry is ok for me… if one of the conditions is Mosley leaving.

  14. Hope Mad Max joins his son soon

    1. Really is no need for that, no matter how much you dislike the man

      1. yep, sykes, that is well out of order!

        1. Yep sykes, that was a bit harsh man!

      2. I take that back but he really is a douche and worst thing is, he gets away with everything.
        Still blame him for Ron Dennis leaving.

        1. ok sykes, but that was still not nice – show some respect man

  15. Keith you couldn’t be farther from the truth. By literally taking the media quote of Max you have missed the whole point of the argument. Max is not, as much as he references it, advocating and pushing the teams to leave F1 and create some other short-lived championship… he is simply saying this is F1, run by the FIA and therefore the rules come from us.

    “Shortlived”? Why? Because we all know that BMW, Renault, Toyota and Mercedes board have all considered departing F1 recently, they have no commitment to the sport other than as Leon has stated marketing and profit. They will be as committed to racing any series as they are to F1.

    I agree Max could have handled things better, however equally so could the teams. They have responded like for like with Max’s position and we all know you do not fight Fire with Fire.

    I make my point and opinion here and through subsequent replies.

    Max, after many stupid regulation changes over the years has finally hit the nail on the head. £40mill and do what you want. The teams don’t like it, because it makes it a level playing field for all, Williams, Force India,Toyota, Ferrari… and they can’t spend their way out of trouble.

    A solution will be found, and if not Ferrari will come back with their tails between their legs. McLaren, Brawn, Force India & Red Bull will realise their stupidity and buy their way back in… and the manufacturers? See ya, Good bye and cyanara!

    1. FOTA has said it wants to play a role in the process of creating the rules which is entirely reasonable – teams have always been consulted on changes in the past and, as the people who supply the cars, their voices need to be heard.

      Mosley, refusing to take heed of their views, is now changing his position away from demanding the teams either commit to F1 for several years or accept a budget cap, and is instead telling them to go away.

      I agree Max could have handled things better, however equally so could the teams. They have responded like for like with Max’s position

      I disagree. Mosley has pressed his case with maximum antagonism, first of all daring Ferrari to leave and now widening his threat to all of the nine teams.

      But I stress, substance is more important than style and it is there that Mosley is most badly wanting. Why isn’t he taking up the team’s offer to commit to F1 for at least three years, when that is what he said he wanted all along?

      If in a few weeks/months/years time we are lamenting the splitting of Formula 1, we will look back at this moment as the point Mosley had a workable compromise in front of him and turned it down.

      1. Keith, from what I understand Max has conceded some of his rules to the teams. For example the first thing to go was the 2 tiers, then he agreed to raise the cap, and we are to understand was in negotiation regarding moving it to 2011 and having a step in 2010.

        I don’t believe Max has threatened the teams in the way you suggest. In all cases, firstly Ferrari then FOTA as a whole, they have been first to mention departing F1 for other series (be that break-away or otherwise)… Max is purely calling their bluff.

        What we, as casual viewers, don’t know is the detail of this Concorde Agreement that the teams are all of a sudden desperate for Max to sign so quickly. If Max is true that this is a 500page document then I for one wouldn’t be signing it in less than 2 weeks, and that is all he is saying.

        Regarding “workable compromises” and who turned it down… from what I understand negotiations were positive, Max and some team members said as such, Norbert Haug was positive about his proposal… however FOTA threw a blind side with their conditions of entry, which to me (on reflection) flew in the face of all the negotiation that had occurred.

        1. The Concorde Agreement (if it follows those used in the past) includes the article which states The F1 Commission “shall resolve all matters concerning the FIA F1 Championship …….. and any changes to the regulations relating to such Championship”.
          So, just what Max doesn`t want.
          He wants “The WMSC may at any time make such additions or alterations to these Regulations as, in its absolute discretion, it considers necessary in order to ensure the achievement of the overriding objective” as in the Cap Regulations.
          Hence why Max doesn’t want to sign the Concorde Agreement.

          1. Bartholomew
            5th June 2009, 0:12

            In the new Concorde agreement it should be clear that Ferrari gets no extra money. If not we are back to square one and all this fuss will be in vain

          2. Max and Bernie have been pushing the teams since the last agreement expired to sign a new one, but the teams have shuffled around it.

            Now, all of a sudden the teams want to sign. Max is not against signing an agreement, just not one that has been rushed through and pushed for agreement in a matter of weeks.

            Any agreement should be carefully discussed and agreed before any signatures are applied.

        2. Max is purely calling their bluff.

          When did they ‘bluff’ by saying they would form a new championship?

          1. Keith,

            It’s true they haven’t officially mentioned a break-away series, I didn’t say they did, I just said they are threatening to depart F1.

            I think it is fair to say they will probably race in other series though. Ferrari have been reported to be looking at LeMans, BMW with the DTM etc

        3. Dougie,

          The way f1 rules use to work and should still work is there needs to be 100% agreement on changes. And the FIA could make changes based on safety.

          Max got certainty as was his original arguement and now he says he wont sign a concorde agreement because of time. If he can try force teams with budgets ranging between 100million and 400million to reduce it by 90% in some cases he can pull his finger out and read and negotiate on the agreement.

          The teams is what make the sport viable they attract the money not the FIA. The FIA is a regulator and police. They are affecting the commercial operations of every fundamental thing assocaited in f1.

          1. GooddayBruce
            5th June 2009, 16:38

            Interesting discussion but I think persempre has it right. The teams are causing this impasse because they are fed up with the way that Mosley handles the rules.

            Dougie:

            Besides his pioneering work in safety

            I agree it sounds great but, given Mosley’s track record do you honestly think it will be that simple.

            I support a budget cap but the teams have it right in this case. As long as Mosley has the sole rule making power F1 is vulnerable to descending into a farce.

          2. GooddayBruce
            5th June 2009, 16:40

            sorry the quote should be

            Max, after many stupid regulation changes over the years has finally hit the nail on the head. £40mill and do what you want.

            not sure what happened there.

      2. As we only know what the ‘trusted’ media know anything at this stage is pure speculation, the compromise is yet to emerge, meanwhile the media keep the fires burning, and F1 gets constant, good or bad, publicity..

      3. So do the teams Keith, and they are as adamant in their view as Max is in his, you cannot have the tail wagging the dog, the FIA has a justified role in this, the teams are often guilty of ‘pass the contract’ or using the threat of leaving for leverage, Ferrari had a technical advantage over the other teams yet saw little wrong with that, Max was elected to a post nobody wanted, to help make the rules, soon the real positions will become evident, and we will see that little has changed…

    2. Martin Bell
      4th June 2009, 23:09

      Dougie, you are a voice of reason and clarity in a sea of nonsense and ill advised personal abuse. I hope it pans out the way you see it.

    3. Dougie

      If the teams were allowed more involvement in the running of the sport in which they are a key and primary stakeholder, don’t you think they would show more commitment?

      So long as Max side lines teams, current or future, there will always be a commitment issue on the part of the teams, whether they spend GBP40M or GBP400M. That is why in a way, a break away series of the 9 teams wouldn’t be so bad. They would have their hearts and souls in that series, that is for sure.

      1. No, I don’t think they will show more commitment.

        No manufacturer board is going to sign off the expense of running their own series, they have never mentioned that (just the media). They know, and Max knows, it is simply not an option.

        In what other sport do the players have a controlling part in the rules? Consulted yes, rule making ability no.

        The FIA has been and will always be in F1, the Manufacturers (and Teams to an extent) are short term players now and then, they come and go.

        1. apart from ford and honda, it has only been private teams that have left. This argument is crap..

          1. This argument is crap..

            Exactly…

            Apart from Ferrari… you name me one manufacturer who has had a continuous presence in the sport since their name first appeared on car, either as a manufacturer or an engine supplier??

            No, again your argument as you so eloquently put it “is crap”. The private teams did not leave, they were forced out though a combination of bankruptcy and a lack of sponsorship/money.

  16. What of the fans? Some would follow F1. Some would follow the new championship. And many – perhaps most – would stop watching.

    There is of course the 4th option that isn’t mentioned, which is watching both. Which I would probably do, at least in the beginning.

  17. If you belonged to, for example, a golf club, Dougie. How would you feel about that club saying it wanted to check your bank statements to make sure you weren`t spending more than they thought right?
    Not chuffed, I bet.
    Why should Max believe that the FIA has the right to look into a team`s accounts?
    Even if the teams agreed to that how would the FIA be entitled to look into the parent company accounts?
    The whole budget cap is unworkable.
    I`m half inclined to think it was just designed to bring on exactly the sort of battle that`s going on now because Max would have to be totally brainless to believe the teams would stomach it.

    1. persempre,

      If the rules of the club were to not spend more than x, and I was winning handsomely, like an athlete is checked for drugs I would fully expect them to analyse my accounts, and I would have nothing to hide.

      As we have already discussed, the only way to keep F1 as the pinnacle of sport and protect it from becoming a spec series, is to limit the total cost they can spend and free up the rules within that. Otherwise it becomes a never ending war where the FIA set rules in an attempt to equalise, and the teams spend more to get the upper hand. Its where we are now and, until we cap the total costs, it will continue to the serious detriment of the sport.

      1. See my post above, Dougie.
        It does not free up the rules. It doesn`t even set the cap for more than one year.
        From the Cap Regs:
        4.3 The Costs Commission may make any other adjustments it deems appropriate to the amount of a team’s Cost Cap in its first year of participation as a CRT, having regard to the spirit of the Regulations and the Handbook and to the assets and activities of the team immediately prior to its first year of participation.

        5.2 The level of the Cost Cap will be decided for future seasons of the Championship by the WMSC and will be published on such date as the WMSC considers provides adequate notice to teams considering entering the Championship as a CRT. It is anticipated that such publication should occur, at the latest, at the time of inviting entries for the Championship to which the Cost Cap relates.
        5.7 In exceptional circumstances, a CRT may exceed the Cost Cap without being exposed to the possible imposition of a penalty. Such exceptional circumstances must be approved (in advance) by the Costs Commission.

        What we have here is a recipe for the FIA to constantly shift the goalposts & make up the rules as they go along.

        1. What you have is a set of rules written to a two-tier championship, which will never see the light of day.

          Max can/has conceeded that situation, the teams will run to the budget cap (whatever that may be in the end).

          With due respect, I think any argument surrounding the two-tier issue is blind to the intention of this whole situation.

          1. Have you heard what the new one-tier rules are, Dougie?
            I haven`t & I don`t believe Max is even interested in them.
            Bernie said the two-tier had been dropped but Max went ahead with the deadline for signing the agreement as is.
            That doesn`t see like a very diplomatic, let`s find a happy medium, course to take.
            What we appear to fundamentally disagree on is that it seems you think this is about money & I definitely don`t.
            Nobody, not one team, says costs should not be cut. FOTA keep coming up with ways to do this.
            To me what this is all about is Max wanting to get rid of a strong team alliance who threaten his power.
            He doesn`t want the teams to be able to have a say in the future of the sport. He wants small teams that he can, once again, divide & conquer.

          2. persempre, nobody knows what the final set of rules coming out of this will be. We can only speculate, even you are speculating that the rules as written will be final.

            Max clearly wrote the two-tier rules to make it attractive for all teams to run to the cap, that much is obvious. More so when in the meetings it was the first thing he conceded.

            This is about money, Formula 1 is always about money and that where things started to go wrong. Manufacturers have always spent money to get back on top, and they don’t see the same return on investment if they can’t beat the smaller teams by spending money. They don’t want to be running at the back, they want to spend their way to the front.

          3. OK just a few questions then

            Why have smaller teams found it too expensive to enter F1 in recent years & who was responsible?

            Why have the teams been forced to spend so much money to have any opportunity to win & who was responsible?

          4. Well I guess in both cases you could argue that Colin Chapman started it all when he brought sponsorship to the sport, but I won’t lay all the blame at his door as I liked him a lot and he deserves enormous respect in my opinion.

            No one person can be blamed for either of those questions, which is essence is the same one.

            Though Bernie really has to think more about the classic original circuits than just his and CVCs pockets. I think there are better ways to spread the cash around.

          5. Small teams were actively discouraged from enterring by the introduction of a $48 million bond which had to be paid to the FIA on entry. THis was because the FIA & FOM considered them bad risks & wanted to get manufacturers into the sport.

            Teams have had to spend a fortune because of the way the FIA regulations are formatted & the way they constantly change. Since the old Concorde Agreement expired the FIA has side-stepped the F1 Commission. The Ferrari veto (which, as the court pointed out had never been used) was, apparently, in place until others subsequently signed up & then things were to revert to the Concorde Agreement.
            The lack of small teams & the spiralling cost of F1 can be laid squarely at the feet of the FIA who are now trying to make it look like the manufacturers’ fault.
            Sponsorship, for which Colin Chapman was responsible, is an altogether different issue.

            However, we`d better agree to disagree on this one, Dougie. If things pan out your way all I can say is I hope you are happy with the outcome because I think very many people won`t be & will leave F1 behind.

          6. The $48mill bond was to ensure new teams had adequate funding before entry, it was not an entry fee. It was not designed to only let the manufacturers in, and was not against small teams, just teams who were not properly prepared. In more $48mill is awfully close to £40mill which seems to be what the FIA feel is a nominal figure to successfully compete.

            If things do pan out my way then I can assure you we will all be happy. All the teams will still be here with some new entries as well, M&B still running the show to a set of rules everyone agrees with. Maybe some manufacturers will have left and Briatore F1 will exist instead. Who knows, but that is what I think will happen.

          7. I didn`t say the bond was the entry fee – just that it had to be paid on entry.
            That £48 million was in addition to all the set-up & running costs so $100 million plus was needed.

            I certainly hope that something will be sorted out but I have my doubts. I can`t see the major teams belittling themselves by bowing to Max` demands. His S&M tendencies are coming to the fore again ;)

            If they leave & you get your new F1 I suppose you`ll have plenty of choice for seats at whatever GPs are left in a year or so. I`m not so sure it will be so easy to watch on TV, though.

            Anyway, I must away. Practice 1 starts in a few hours! Nice debating with you.

          8. Dougie

            Budget capping in f1 will never work. How do you propose it to work. An identical part in two different countries have different prices. I can go to the uk and by a bonds singlet for 30pounds, the same singlet in italy will be 30euros. The value of a euro and a pound is different. Furthermore each country has different employment, tax arrangements. Germany is more expensive then Italy etc etc. How can you have true comparison you cant. It is impossible. F1 teams are based in 5 different countries. Bduget capping works in sport like football etc etc. Motorsport cannot budget cap it never worked in v8 supercars in australia it will never work in f1. The way to cut cost in f1 is what the f1 teams are saying to do. Standard parts, and materials.

            Standard tyre, engines, ecu, electrics, wheels, etc etc. these products can be calcualted at a cost equivalent for all teams. Limit cost in terms of limiting resources they can develop is where money will be saved. No need to carry out expensive reasearch. Another thing they could do is leave the rules alone for 10 year periods. the more you change them the more it cost.

            Max has ruined f1.

          9. If they leave & you get your new F1

            persempre, I don’t want a new F1, I want the F1 I grew up with before the debacle that was the last 15 years. An F1 that had the UK and the world on the edge of their seats start to end at every single race!

          10. Morning Dougie :)

            Imaginary scenario.
            F1 exists under a budget cap with rules that allow the FIA to change regs at will.
            If one team begins the season in as dominant form as Brawn has this year, how will the other teams afford to catch up & make the exciting races the fans wish for?
            There are only 2 alternatives.
            a) The FIA changes the regulations to impede the runaway winner or b) they allow extra spending by the teams (& note, the FIA can chose which team can overspend) who may catch up.
            What`s the difference between (b) & paying one team more than the others which so so many have called unfair?
            So, we will then have totally manufactured racing.
            It is not the job of the FIA to interfere with racing to manufacture a show.
            If teams are budget capped &, therefore, cannot spend to make the necessary improvements how can we get a full season with good racing?
            If people are writing the Championship off now & calling it boring what will be said when there is no hope of that changing without intervention by the FIA?

          11. Good morning presempre,

            Great first practice eh! quality! It really shows that the teams are closer then people think. Good old… errr… young… Rosberg showboating again! Go on Son! :-D

            The problem with your scenario is it fails at the first hurdle. The “changeable rules” scenario (which for the record I don’t agree with, as we need stability) was to manage the two-tier championship, but (as Max wants) if the teams are all running to the capped regulations then that requirement no longer exists.

            What I want is stability for the next 5 or 10 years. Freed up regulations and a budget cap to curtail ridiculous spending. Then we will see who really is the best F1 team out there… for me Williams & Brawn will be right up there, with McLaren, Ferrari & Red Bull close behind.

        2. Phil, I agree that stability of rules is a big factor in cutting costs and we need that, but not with the current rules, we need a change that will last 5 or 10 years and another way to control the escalating development costs. The only way to do that is capping.

          As for standard parts, I’m not in agreement, that is making a spec series more than my comment about the teams having to use Cosworth (because that is all that is available at the moment due to the manufacturers pulling out and not because of a rule) and having freedom everywhere else within the cap.

          Personally, even if FOTA (and they are already crumbling with Force India now leaving, just Brawn & McLaren to go, RB would be good too) do step away from F1 I predict there will still be 2 other engines on the grid in Mercedes & Ferrari supplying teams.

          1. I think the cost cuts suggested by the teams which have already been adopted have cut quite a large percentage in costs.
            For instance, cutting testing (not a move I personally like) was a team agreement.
            There are other, much more sensible ways to control costs than an unworkable cap.
            FOTA have made several suggestions but Max is only interested in getting his own way & coming out as top guy.
            If this had only been about money then it could have been sorted long ago.

          2. The problem with the teams proposals is the they may cut costs, and help the smaller teams, but…

            Where does it stop the big teams still spending loads… where is the competition in that!?!

          3. Ah, back on the two-tier regs then?

          4. Ah, back on the two-tier regs then?

            EH!?!

            No! I don’t want a two-tier regulation, I was the first to jump up and say “yes!” when it was reported and confirmed Max had conceded that!

            I want a budget capped formula with freed up regulations that are stable for at least 5 years! Everyone to the same rules and the same costs. True competition.

          5. you didn’t answer how can it be policed so no teams has an advantage regarding development in different countries. The standard parts are parts that are not really developed anyhow. Rims no light weight rims, no exotic materials ,etc etc

          6. how can it be policed so no teams has an advantage regarding development in different countries

            To be fair phil, you do have a valid point here, though I don’t believe it is such a big issue as you are making out. However, this was something that I understand FOTA and Max were coming to an agreement on during the talks, before FOTA went stupid with their conditions.

            Why couldn’t they have just said “conditional on positive and fully agreeable outcome from the talks etc” WHY!?!

  18. 1994fanatic
    4th June 2009, 22:18

    He sounds like Fidel Castro. I’ve been following F1 for decades now waking up at 2:30 sunday mornings to watch some race in bumblef@ck china. If this crap goes on I’m done with F1 as I’m sure many of you are. Races need to be where they were before this decade for the fans, not Bernie’s already fat bank account. How much money do you really need, you piece of trash? Can anybody tell me where to write to get these two out. I’d need some help with letters though. Can we ban together and take these commies down?!

  19. Eddie Irvine
    4th June 2009, 22:27

    Firstly, I strongly beleive that budget cap is the way to go. I really hope that after all these mess, F1 come up with 15-16 teams pre-qualyfing and many many drivers. Nigel Mansell was right; a worthy champion is someone who come first between 26-28-30 drivers not 20(and of course in one competition).
    Can’t wait for next season, it will be a new era for formula 1!!!
    Prodrive-Lola-USF1-Lightspeed-March-Brabham-Campos-******-****** many wishes and many podiums!!!

    1. Budget capping in f1 will never work. How do you propose it to work. An identical part in two different countries have different prices. I can go to the uk and by a bonds singlet for 30pounds, the same singlet in italy will be 30euros. The value of a euro and a pound is different. Furthermore each country has different employment, tax arrangements. Germany is more expensive then Italy etc etc. How can you have true comparison you cant. It is impossible. F1 teams are based in 5 different countries. Bduget capping works in sport like football etc etc. Motorsport cannot budget cap it never worked in v8 supercars in australia it will never work in f1. The way to cut cost in f1 is what the f1 teams are saying to do. Standard parts, and materials.

      Standard tyre, engines, ecu, electrics, wheels, etc etc. these products can be calcualted at a cost equivalent for all teams. Limit cost in terms of limiting resources they can develop is where money will be saved. No need to carry out expensive reasearch. Another thing they could do is leave the rules alone for 10 year periods. the more you change them the more it cost

      1. Budget capping in f1 will never work. How do you propose it to work. An identical part in two different countries have different prices.

        Except that most of the parts come from the UK anyway, and the Euro and Pound are pretty identical at the moment. Anyway, so what, if the teams want cheap parts or a bit more expensive quality parts that’s there choice.

        …and that the beauty of this system, the teams have a choice! They will all do things in different ways, but within the £40mill, the racing will be close and different as each teams strengths shine.

        Standard tyre, engines, ecu, electrics, wheels, etc etc.

        So, you want a spec series then?

        1. A good portion of the cars and parts are designed and built inhouse. You can have identical parts built in two countries and one will be more expensive then the other. It cannot be accuratley calculated so every team is fair. If the UK introduce an emission trading scheme and italy dont, electricity in the uk is more expensive then italy. Is that an unfair advantage to ferrari, williams will think so. The FIA cannot control these things.

          As for the spec series, im only suggested things that are almost identical anyway, rims, ecu, engines design, material (non exotic) brakes, F1 design and construction will be reduced to a set of materials, no need for expensive research.

      2. <blockquoteFirstly, I strongly beleive that budget cap is the way to go.

        Well Toyota has the biggest budget and where has it gotten them over the years? A bit closer to a win is all. You can’t put a budget on talent…Newy, Brawn, Alonso etc…

        I don’t think anyone in this sport is going to spend more than they can afford to spend. If they do spend more or can’t get the money because of poor results, then they need to leave. The teams that can’t afford to race this Formula need to race in another one.

        All this talk about a budget creating a level playing field in F1 is fiction. That may sound harsh but no one is holding a gun to Toyota’s head and saying spend this much.

        1. Which is why Brawn, Alonso, and Neweys salaries are outside the budget cap.

          Toyota may be spending the most for the least return, but the teams generally are spending still a massive percentage of Toyotas budget each year… and Williams are the only front running team working to a sensible budget plan… and for me show how it should be done.

          ps. Brawn in 2009 (not including their 2008 astronomical development costs) are also working to a sensible budget plan, and it will be interesting to see where they are next year. I believe still somewhere at the front.

          1. pps. this was in reply to Alex Bkk

          2. I should have added that, as the Entry Form contains the statement “We hereby apply to enter the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the standard regulations/under the cost cap regulations (delete as appropriate) and we undertake to participate in each and every Event :” that the teams were left with little choice but to do what they did. Max hasn`t really shifted an inch since the cap regs were first published.

          3. presempre, See my replies to this above, the system for some reason is sticking them in funny places.

          4. “Relevant expenditure shall include all expenditure, valued in accordance with these Regulations, which, irrespective of its source, is directly or indirectly connected with the CRT’s participation in the Championship save for expenditure : (a) the sole purpose of which is marketing or hospitality; (b) on the employment or remuneration of test or race drivers, including any young driver programmes; (c) on any fine or penalty imposed by the FIA; d) for 2010 only, costs directly and exclusively associated with the supply and maintenance of engines under existing engine supply arrangements and (e) which the team can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Costs Commission was not intended to have and could not have any influence of any kind, however marginal, on the CRT’s sporting performance in the Championship”

            Where does it say anyone bar drivers wages are exempt, Dougie?

          5. save for expenditure : (a) the sole purpose of which is marketing or hospitality; (b) on the employment or remuneration of test or race drivers, including any young driver programmes;

            It’s written there in your post.

          6. Since when have Brawn & Newey been drivers, Dougie?
            LOL – Read your own post :)
            “Which is why Brawn, Alonso, and Neweys salaries are outside the budget cap.”

          7. Oops… just re-read and understood your post…

            As part of the negotiations the teams were saying that Max had agreed to exclude Team Principals and “one other nominee” (e.g. Newey) from the cap.

          8. Yes, but the whole point behind what I`ve been trying to convey is what is said didn`t make it onto paper.
            Would you sign a binding agreement which was full of conditions you thought impossible & rely on what was said to be put into action or would you assume that the document you sign is what you are likely to be agreeing to binding legally?
            The teams signed conditionally because the Sporting Regulations & the Entry Form have remained unchanged from the situation Max wants.

          9. persempre,

            How can Max change the regulations when they are still negotiating them!?! Hence why he recommended a conditional entry to cover the situation they are in, it seems perfectly logical to me.

            Look, enough already, I’m going to agree to disagree, I’m really bored with this now, and in more the website is doing funny things with my posts. I’ll see you on another post sometime, but not in the same way. Take it easy. :-D

  20. Max Mosley should be more interested in listening to the teams … and the fans rather than building his own pride. Although sometimes I wonder whether he has hidden agenda????

    Such comments from the one person who should ensure F1 consolidation are unwarranted and naive.

    My only hope is that whoever will be taking part in the next FIA president’s election considers his Kamikaze tactics. Clearly, for me, this present is way past his sell date.

  21. Just out of interest I`d like to know how many people here have read the Budget Cap Sporting Regs?

    1. Maybe you should enlighten us and tell us how many other sports have budget caps. I have come across none!

      1. That I honestly don`t know, sasbus.
        I follow F1 closely but that doesn`t leave much time for any depth of knowledge of many others sports.
        I asked who had read the rules because I was wondering whether views on this were taken from reading the actual rules or just from what had been read/heard in the press.
        I think anyone who has read the proposed regulations would understand FOTA`s stance.

        1. I’ve read the Budget Regulations and it is my contention that anyone who applies to be in the cost-cap will be disqualified at the end of 2010. The reason is that all teams who choose to accept the cap will have to state who they intend to have as staff, agencies, suppliers and consultants by December 15 of the year preceding competition.

          Firstly, no team can possibly know all those things that far in advance. No provision is made for any form of exception.

          Secondly, not all suppliers will be legally able to provide the FIA with the financial information it wants.

          Thirdly, part of the reason the staff need to be known is so that they can be interviewed as soon as they leave by a financial investigator. Failure of the staff member to submit to interview results in the team being penalised. It would only take a vengeful member of staff for a team to be brought down, even if the cause of the vengeance has nothing to do with money or indeed regulation breaches.

          1. Thanks Alainora,

            Do you agree that it`s just a totally unworkable nightmare as the thing stands & that is all Max has put on the table.
            He may have said the two-tier would go (although I can only remember seeing Bernie actually say that – not Max – but he certainly hasn`t come forward with anything else by way of alternative.
            The teams have had to sign with the 2-tier, capped agreement which is why they have done so conditionally.
            As far as I can see the teams had 2 choices not sign or, as at Max` suggestion, sign conditionally. How could they possibly sign as is?

  22. I’m interested in F1 for several reasons:
    – The technology & engineering
    – The drivers & circuits
    – The off-track activites (driver signings, politics)

    If FOTA set up their own championship it could attract the best drivers as there would likely be more money there. I would expect them to go to some great circuits and others where they have key markets. The cars could well be freer in concept, allow for more innivation, faster and all-together more advanced. To me a FOTA championship could have it all, and be fairer to everyone (fans, circuits, teams, advertisers).

    What would the FIA have? A few recognisable teams. A few great drivers who are there because they have a better chance to win. But still not racing at key circuits (Silverstone, Spa, Imola, Montreal, etc).

    To me FOTA are going to be OK. They have the least to lose. Shurely CVC/Bernie are qwaking in their boots – if F1 splits then they have an asset worth considerably less than it is now. FOTA can rid themselves of Max and Bernie and give the fans the championship we want.

    1. Totally Agree!!!

  23. “We now have a dispute and we will see who prevails.” – Max Mosley

    Sums his whole approach up really.

  24. Every day he sounds more and more like a power-hungry dictator, terrified of losing his throne no matter what damage he does to the institution it is his job to protect. He would rather bring down the championship with him than give in, end up looking weak and get booted out at the next election.

  25. Max has demonstrated once more that his number one concern is stroking his ego.

    Mosley has said “F1 would survive without Ferrari” which may be true, but F1 would THRIVE without Max.

    Why does he think he has the right to call the shots? Max brings nothing to the table and its childish for him to think F1 is his to destroy.

  26. Texas F1 Fan
    4th June 2009, 23:19

    I can’t help but think this is all just a bunch of high drama.

    Surely he would not wreck F1 over ego/pride. I mean, we’re talking real money here.

    Before Rome burns, there’s got to be a last minute backroom pow wow, where everything will get sorted out. Max will get a budget cap (higher than 40M), FOTA will get one set of rules.

    1. Surely he would not wreck F1 over ego/pride. I mean, we’re talking real money here.

      Max has an ego no doubt, but FOTA is full of egos, and nobody least of all FOTA is backing down.

      Formula 1 and the FIA will still be here a very long time after FOTA (and any off-shoot) have gone.

  27. Quite frankly, the man that would lose most in a split is Bernie, so I still expect him to somehow make it all work.

    1. It would be funny if the FOTA creates a new series… Bernie get’s his fingers in and becomes the commercial right holders.

    2. Martin Bell
      4th June 2009, 23:31

      The fog of all this, the sudden rush of “new” teams, the convoluted nature of the debate, the inevitability of a resolution, it has Bernie written large across all of it. Of course he will make it work because all of it is his design. The man is a genius.

  28. One of the plus is the all the circuit that have been taken of the calender in the breakaway competition. The return of Canada, North American Or Multiple North American Races. France. And many others

  29. I can’t believe anybody wants a bunch of car manufacturers controlling the sport and dictating to somebody, in my view, who has a clear vision for the future of the sport.

    These manufacturers are only interested in one thing, and it ain’t Formula 1 and its future. As soon as Formula 1 is no longer advantageous for them they’re gone and who cares what happens to F1… or for that matter any break-away series they’ll create.

    Give me an engine, that’s all, or don’t. I couldn’t care if all the teams are running Cosworths, at least then it’s more about the teams ingenuity and the drivers talent. The manufacturers will soon come crawling back.

    McLaren/Mercedes have the right relationship. The other manufacturers are too closely involved with the team and will leave those employees high and dry in an instant. McLaren will survive without Mercedes.

    1. I can’t believe anybody wants a bunch of car manufacturers controlling the sport and dictating to somebody

      That isn’t what FOTA are asking for, though, is it? Here’s what they say:

      All FOTA teams now look forward with optimism to collaborating proactively and productively with the FIA, with a view to establishing a solid foundation on which the future of a healthy and successful Formula One can be built, providing lasting stability and sound governance.

      Not “taking over the sport and running it ourselves” – contributing to the process.

      1. What irks me about that FOTA statement is they are looking forward to…

        …maybe if they took a look behind they would see that was already happening until they threw that curve ball.

        1. What curve ball, Dougie? They`ve made their case quite clearly from the start but every time they come up with a suggestion Max changes the argument.
          Did you see what Mario Theissen said?
          Q. You submitted your applications as conditional. Was that suggested by the FIA, or was it something that FOTA decided to do unilaterally?

          MT: When we had the meeting with Max [Mosley] in Monaco, it was his idea to put in a conditional entry.

          Q. So it would be difficult for the FIA to come back, therefore, and say you are in breach of the rules?

          MT: It would be a surprise.

          Why do that if he (Max) isn`t just going out of his way to be awkward?

          1. Well, it seems obvious to me why he would say that…

            The discussions are ongoing, positive steps have been taken but work is still to be done. The entry date is looming. So make an entry but make it conditional.

            The teams just took those conditions too far. Conditional on a positive outcome from the meetings, not conditional on Max backing down completely!

    2. These manufacturers are only interested in one thing, and it ain’t Formula 1 and its future. As soon as Formula 1 is no longer advantageous for them they’re gone and who cares what happens to F1…

      That applies not only to Manufacturers, also to Independent teams, Sponsors, TV, Ecclestone, etc, etc, IMO.

    3. in my view, who has a clear vision for the future of the sport.

      Question: Did you forget the question mark at the end?

    4. Give me an engine, that’s all, or don’t. I couldn’t care if all the teams are running Cosworths, at least then it’s more about the teams ingenuity and the drivers talent.

      you can have that in a series call A1GP, why you bother to see F1.

      1. Isuraeru,

        My statement actually reads as…

        With a £40mill cap, the teams have complete freedom in the rules and can use whose ever engines they want. However, if all the manufacturers have pulled out and all that is available is Cosworth, so be it.

        I don’t believe that situation will happen, at minimum I see Mercedes and Ferrari engine s on the grid as well.

        As for your comparison to A1GP, if you knew anything about F1 and A1GP you would know that is a stupid comparison. A1GP have standard EVERYTHING, engine, chassis, ancillaries, everything!

        1. Somehow, I don`t think any manufacturer who leaves the sport will be interested in doing the R&D & producing cheap engines for F1.
          The offer is there (engine/gearbox) in FOTA`s suggestions but I`d be surprised if it stays on the table if the engine manufacturers leave.

          1. Manufacturers have been supplying engines for F1 in the whole 29years I’ve been watching F1 and even before then.

            It is only recently that they have taken over control of the whole team and gone wild with costs.

          2. This article may interest you then. It looks less likely they`ll be gearing up for additional engine-supplying.

          3. Oh god! Merc-Benz shed 50 jobs! Panic! they’re going to pull out of F1! Oh no! F1 is dead! …err.. no!

            They’ve shed 50 jobs in a difficult climate… Why?… to reduce overheads and costs! Hmmm… makes a budget cap seem sensible to me.

            My employer (a bank) is shedding 650 jobs, with more to come am sure, does that mean we should all keep our money under the mattress… No!

          4. Ah, a bank man. You must be used to being unpopular lately ;)
            If a cap comes in the manufacturer teams will be forced to cut jobs regardless of the economic situation.
            Ferrari happen to have done very nicely if you look at their last annual report. Why should they have to make redundancies at Maranello just to suit Max’ idea of a budget cap?
            Did you notice “This is a serious blow to the district, its high-tech economy and its relationship with F1. We have a cluster of businesses in Northamptonshire which are at the leading edge. It affects not only those who are involved in the business but their families. This is really very bad news and one must commiserate with family and individuals affected.”

            By the way, I thought when we were talking about Chapman yesterday that you may actually, like me, remember the advent of sponsorship even Lotus in British Racing Green.
            No matter how long we have followed the sport we are constantly learning, Dougie.
            My 40 years of following F1 don`t mean I know it all.

          5. persempre, LOL!! actually I am an IT man, but lets not get into that ;-)

            I feel for anyone who is made redundant or under a cloud of redundancy, but it is a sign of the times, but it is not a new thing… I personally have sat under a cloud of redundancy every 2 years since I’ve came out of college… its life, businesses do what they need to do to survive, Formula 1 is no different to that.

            It would appear you’ve been watching Formula 1 for as long as I’ve been on this hunk of rock floating in the vast expanses of nothingness… sponsorship had arrived before I joined the many fans watching the sport, and I have taken some interest in its history… but one thing is clear, I would never pretend to know it all, I just know what I feel.

        2. With a £40mill cap, the teams have complete freedom in the rules and can use whose ever engines they want.

          No, they doesnt have complete freedom, they will have to manage under cap, thats not “complete” freedom.

          As for your comparison to A1GP, if you knew anything about F1 and A1GP you would know that is a stupid comparison. A1GP have standard EVERYTHING, engine, chassis, ancillaries, everything!

          Maybe I don’t explain myself enough, I am going to show like I explain things to litle ones:

          A1GP have estandar everything (as you said) and thats why this statement (from you)

          at least then it’s more about the teams ingenuity and the drivers talent.

          describes better A1 than F1. IMO

    5. Dougie

      The only manufactures that left the sport was ford and honda (prematurely i might ad) F1 is not a sport it is a marketing monster. Thats why people pay millions. If you want to watch a series where they have one engine go and watch A1. If the manufactures leave you have no KERS, dodgy costworth engines, NO ECU, Bridgstone will leave because they would have no reason to advertise in f1. The new teams cant gurantee there survival, and dont have the capability to develop systems like the existing teams. F1 goes back to the stone age. How do the new teams get all the electrical know how under 40million, they cant. This is carried over from year after year. you have no arguement. If your investing 100million plus pounds in a sport a year you want to have a say. Plain and simple.

      1. All the manufacturers (except Ferrari, who I see as a racing team first anyway) have come and gone and come and gone from the sport over the years. Just because they are here now does not mean they will all be here in 5 years.

        If Williams can develop a KERS system, and a whole host of other stuff over the years in the limited budget they have, then am sure other teams like McLaren, Red Bull, Brawn etc can manage the same.

        I think you are being unfair to the vast amount of talent that Formula 1 teams (not the manufacturers) possess. It was not all that long ago that teams had innovation with a budget of a lot less than £40mill.

        1. Williams bought into Automotive Hybrid Power Limited for the Flybrid. They still haven`t been able to use it properly because it rattles around like a pea in a bucket.
          So KERS was far from a wise investment for them so far, Dougie.

          Yes, budgets were less than 40 million but what did a pint cost then? ;)

          1. I think you are missing the point… I’ve never agreed with the proposal to have KERS this year with such short notice, Max made it obligatory so the teams had a choice, Williams made a choice and I am all for freedom of choice. Sound investment or not, they made a choice, and with £40mill they would still have a choice.

            How much was a pint then? Who cares, that is not the point. The point is, other racing series can put a car on the grid for an absolute fraction of the cost of the £40mill budget for F1… so even with the extra cost of an F1 car, that leaves an enormous amount for R&D.

          2. KERS was optional not obligatory.
            Unfortunately, those that went with the FIA`s request to use it were almost all the same as those who went by the OWG aero regulations & so found themselves at a double disadvantage (no diffuser but the added weight/grim balance of KERS).

            I don`t think I`m missing the point, Dougie.
            If you feel the cap is correct then fine but you won`t get back the F1 you were yearning for in an earlier post. Apart from the fact that we can never go back, it`s never the same, these are completely different circumstances which F1 has never had before & in my own opinion should not be brought in as they dumb down what should be the pinnacle of motorsport.
            You disagree which is absolutely your right.

          3. KERS was optional not obligatory.

            Yeah, sorry, that was what I meant… this lack of edit is a bit of a pain.

            those that went with the FIA`s request to use it were almost all the same as those who went by the OWG aero regulations

            Which I find to be a bit silly, as it’s the FIA rules that govern the sport. Choice’s and choice’s. But it’s all within the same set of guidelines and therefore (finances apart) an equal playing field.

            If you feel the cap is correct then fine but you won`t get back the F1 you were yearning for in an earlier post. Apart from the fact that we can never go back, it`s never the same, these are completely different circumstances which F1 has never had before & in my own opinion should not be brought in as they dumb down what should be the pinnacle of motorsport. You disagree which is absolutely your right.

            Actually, I don’t disgree with your point here, and you are absolutely right it will never be the same, and I have to come to accept that. However, with a £40mill cap, it will still be the pinnacle of Motorsport.

            If what you want is a showcase for the manufacturers to parade round and round showing off how much money they have and a continuation of a lack of proper overtaking and racing (like we used to have) that’s fine.

            I want to see a return to a level competition for all (finances included) and proper wheel to wheel racing.

  30. If FOTA breakaway I would love to see them to do two things:
    1) Modify the cars so they can race on Ovals and participate in the Indy 500, and
    2) Invest into Monza and rebuild the oval, then invite the IRL and race them on that – the Monza 500

    1. This would be my “fantasy FOTA calender”:
      01. Adelaide (Australia)
      02. Kyalami (South Africa)
      03. Barcelona (Spain)
      04. Imola (San Marino)
      05. Nurburgring (Germany)
      06. Silverstone (UK)
      07. Magny Cours – widened (France)
      08. Monte Carlo (Monaco)
      09. Montreal (Canada)
      09. Indy 500 (USA)
      10. Zandvoort (Netherlands)
      11. Hockenheim – the old one (Germany)
      12. Monza – inc. oval (Italy)
      13. Spa (Belgium)
      14. Suzuka (Japan)
      15. Singapore (Singapore)
      16. Elkhart Lake (USA)
      17. Interlagos (Brazil)
      18. San Luis (Argentina)

      1. Bartholomew
        5th June 2009, 0:24

        Maybe Road America and Road Atlanta should be considered.
        I like your list very much , Rabi.

        The best drivers, with some old and some new teams, racing on these beautiful tracks with cars that have a reasonable budget cap ( even one close to Max´s proposal ), AND WITHOUT BERNIE AND CVC.
        Max will give his blesing and everyone happy

        START YOUR ENGINES GENTLEMEN !!! and I´m turning on the television and opening the beer can n.1 — cheers my brothas !

        1. Ferrari Challenge is at Road America on 28th, Bartholomew.
          They were at Road Atlanta on April 19th.

      2. Texas F1 Fan
        5th June 2009, 1:07

        No round tracks!!!!

        F1 is cool because they know how to turn right…

        1. Take Barcelona off that list too!

      3. Please, don’t forget:

        19. Hermanos Rodriguez (Mexico City)

  31. Prisoner Monkeys
    5th June 2009, 0:20

    Playing the Devil’s Advocate here, but right now, we need Mosely. At least until the 2010 regulations get passed. If some kind of coup d’etat was staged right now, it would harm Formula One more than help it. Any manager knows that you don’t change the Powers That Be when you’re in the middle of ushering in new changes. Mosely’s replacement would likely jeopardise things even more, and not because of some perceived character slight, but simply because of the change of power from Mosley to him/her.

    Mosley might need to be given his P-45s, but for the sake of the sport, they have to be issued after the regulations have passed and not a moment beforehand.

    1. I think, if anything, you will be more likely to see the big teams go than Max, Prisoner Monkeys.
      Max may well be around to live up to the title of The Man Who Killed F1.

      1. Prisoner Monkeys
        5th June 2009, 1:33

        I’m not saying whether one side or the other will go. Everybody is pouncing at the opportunity to vent their frustrations with Mosley, but my point is that trying to get rid of him right now is not the answer simply because it will hurt more than it will heal.

        Personally, I think Mosley is bluffing a little bit. I can’t imagine that the ten entries submitted so far are all substantial enough to serve as a replacement grid – in fact, the only ones that seem to have a real idea of what they’re getting into are Team US-F1, Lola, Prodrive, Campos and Epsilon Euskadi – and I think he’s trying to scare them into falling in line with his idea.

        Let’s be honest: neither side of the FIA-FOTA dispute wants to see all the current teams exit the sport, but both are arrogant enough to think they can start playing chicken and the other guy will back off first. Everyone instantly derides Mosley as the guilty party, but you can’t claim that FOTA are nothing less than comeplely innocent.

  32. Cant disagree with a word that you said there Keith, bloody brilliant article – which im sure FOTA and the teams agree with what uv said.

    Dont quite agree with Eddie above, in that we need 14-15 teams with qualifying limiting 4 drivers out of a race, dont think thats fair exactly. But we need the FOTA teams, of course we want a 26 car grid and hopefully USF1, Prodrive and Campos will get the gigs for next year.

    F1 cant and wont survive without the FOTA teams, you’re right fans would follow the (and the true f1 drivers and teams) FOTA teams over to their new/custom series and the sport would suffer big time. I do wish some1 would give Mosley a good right hook and knock him out. He’s threatening to kill the sport, with his ego and greed.

  33. remeber the IRL/CART Split or the WoO and the other sereies that lasted a season.

    1. Keith made a valid point about this, in that FOTA has never mentioned creating a series, and I for one don’t think for a second that FOTA will create a break-away series. They may well continue to race, but FOTA will be dead and the individual teams will do one of 3 things…

      1. Crawl back to Formula 1
      2. Race in other already established series (e.g. LeMans, DTM)
      3. Pack there bags and go home to sell cars.

  34. I feel Mosly thinks he is the master of brinkmanship!.
    This situation should never have evolved.
    KERS proving (so far) a big mistake and led a team or 4 up expensive blind alleys at what cost in £’s or euro’s?
    At FIA’s instigation, despite immininent global financial difficulties.
    How many teams regretting not abandoning KERS notions in favour of investing less in chassis and aero to potentially greater effect ?.
    Now we have a 2009 season partially blighted by the double diffuser row, due to vaguely written regs.(did RB not warn?).
    Now without fair warning to the existing teams, a huge budget reduction without consideration to existing contracts (employees, sub-contractors,etc.)
    OK, some of the laid off staff could be picked up by new entrants, but how much technical knowledge could they take with them without another episode of the Ferrari / McLaren spat!.
    Oh by the way, pit space for 13 teams at every circuit, not a problem? I await comments.
    On the positive side, slicks, reduced aero and other changes have produced some great races and a major turnaround in the established pecking order.
    I personally thought JB, with the right car underneath him, was a potential regular a podium driver.
    Come on Red Bull, Ferrari et al, make Brawn and Jenson really earn their potential WDC, WCC and show Max (and to a certain extent Bernie), plus FOTA, what they are jeapordising!.
    Some heads need knocking together over the present situation.
    Are team sponsors and worldwide TV channels looking at alternatives to F1 for 2010/2011? I suspect so.
    F1 has evolved into a global interest / fascination.
    So why risk killing the golden goose?

  35. The FOTA can’t get along with each other, how on earth are they going to run a series by themselves? MadMax knows this and even if they try it will be a dismal flop and MadMax gets the last laugh. MadMax is the problem however and must be done away with somehow.

  36. Hear hear! FOTA all the way. I just cant believe that Mosley is being such a retard. Is he blind or just a Twat? If all those historic and valuable teams leave F1, its going to take talented drivers with them and its going to die. I possibly agree with the budget cap, but at least introduce it gradually. Not slam a 40 mil number in straight away. Why doesn’t he just get a room with Ecclestone. Mind you, at least he wants the teams to stay… even if he doesn’t want Silverstone. Together, they’re both screwing F1 in to the ground. I guess its a case of…

    F1 is dead. long live FOTA!

  37. If FOTA does form a breakaway series (and it’s a big if) I presume that the BBC would follow the FIA setup, i.e. The Carp Series, and not the “Real F1”

    If that is the case, F1 would die.
    Without TV money Formula One couldn’t survive.

    I think Mosley should step down and maybe have a change of career – maybe politics (I think the bNp are looking for new members) – he could wear one of his daddy’s old shirts.

  38. Please leave Ferrari I will follow you wherever you go!!

  39. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with money and is nothing more than a power-struggle. Max needs all of it, no compromise.

    In my practise/experience, I have come across a wonderful model of the 5 stages of relationships:

    -Romance
    -Power struggle
    -Integration
    -Commitment
    -Co-creation

    Unfortunately, most relationships get the order all wrong, but if we were to accept that the long F1 romance phase is over and we are in a classic power-struggle, then the only way forward is for each side to acknowledge the others position and work out a compromise that allows all involved to come from a position of empowerment and equality. Then integration can happen and commitment (Concord agreement) and co-creation (sharing of power/rule making and revenue) can occur.

    Your 50 minute hour is over, Max. I suggest next week we talk about your sexual predilections and the two sides of the domination/submission coin.

  40. I think you missed that one when you did the “Things F1 should learn from USA”:

    The Champcar-IRL spit. That worked so horribly they had to re-unite 14 years later and now it’s rubbish. They truly missed the trick there. I have many magazines from that time that stated Indycar Racing as a possible rival to F1. And few years later, it went burst.

    Why Max wants to do the same?. Even if they do spit, he will end up trying to get those blokes back to F1.

    1. BTW the whole – and I mean the ENTIRE driving force behind that split was Tony George and some others wanting to have American drivers on the Podium one way or another for marketing reasons. “Foreigners” were not wanted! So they decided they’d *only run in circles and hire American drivers. Then there was a huge debate at the time as to just what constituted an “American driver”. Was it Andretti (about as Italian as you can get), or Stewart, or Mears, or Running Bear, or who? So that lasted about 5 minutes and pretty soon ppl from everywhere were back racing in irl. I liked Champ cars for their diversity, and flat out speed, and I believe Ari L still holds the absolute lap record at Indy in one, though I dont remember which.

  41. marvin guillen
    5th June 2009, 2:48

    max don`t let me smack you on the face………..please!!
    or, i`ll send old bernie to smack you!!
    don`t you know that i love all the current teams.but not you. GO USF1. viva la U.S.A

  42. This budget cap thing is a good idea, it makes the sport a lot more attractive for privateer teams, which would be great fun.

    I just think they’re going about this the wrong way. I mean, serious, 40 million pounds? Come on! According the Uli Hoeness, that can’t even buy you one of Frank Ribery’s legs, so how are you supposed run an F1 team with that kind of money? The 100 million deal seem reasonable, but will it be enough for the manufacturers? Doubt it.

    The manufacturers don’t want the cap because F1 is a major R&D and marketing tool for them, so 100 million will never be enough. There is no point questioning these corporate devils about their commitment to racing, it a business for them.

  43. (In Dumb and Dumber fashion)…. Ok shoot him!

    1. But what if he shoots him in the face?

    1. Prisoner Monkeys
      5th June 2009, 3:56

      Won’t do anything. If FOTA do not have the power to oust Mosley, do you really think anyone is going to listen to a bunch of fans on the internet, half of whom probably don’t even understand what is going on?

  44. MAX has goon MAXIMUM MAD

    WHAT IS BERNIE DOING

    F1 WILL SOON DIE

    NOBODY WILL EVER WATCH AUTO RACING FROM 2010

  45. This to me sounds like a man in the death throws of his career as FIA president, at odds with everybody around him. The events of last year have only emboldened his inflated self opinion about the way inwhich he is running the FIA, which has more akin to a South American junta than a sporting governing body.
    There is no way in hell that F1 will split! Bernie Ecclestone and all the teams would lose billions, and none of them are that stupid. The manner inwhich American openwheel racing collapsed in the 1990s proves beyond any doubt how pointless and damaging a split would be.
    If I were in the FIA, I would be worried! Worried about how much longer Mosley should be allowed incharge. He is clearly incapable of any proper leadership and his judgement is beyond pathetic. I am tired of looking at the past and wishing F1 was as it were ten or fifteen years ago.
    Something has to be done, drastically, to eradicate this cancer from Formula One.

  46. FOTA is trying put the old gag about the inmates running the asylum into reality, and thats not a viable business plan. Its already a dual-level sport – no one can seriously say that Toyota or Ferrari *each spending half a billion $ per year are on the same level playing field as Williams, for example.
    I dont care if we *never hear from them again. Teams that everyone thought were “too-important-to-fail” have come and gone before, and these guys are *not bigger than the sport. If they dont like the rules then go race somewhere else, I just do not care.
    And all the talk here about the fans going away is just hot air: the money is in TV these days, not in filling seats at the track.

    1. As you said the money is in tv’s, because the spectacle the existing teams FOTA attract millions of viewers. Fans will go if nine teams and famous drivers go. When schumi retired ratings fell by 25%. If 9 teams leave ratings will fall by 60%, probably more. Spain, Italy, Germany,france, asia, will turn off. Even the UK will turn of. BBC and every other networks advertising cost would need to be slashed as they can no longer gurantte 50 million people watching there network on sunday. Hence this threat is real. Without the exposure f1 is dead. Thats the real arguement behind this. Max, Bernie, and CVC knows this. No sponser wants to attached themselves to a no name team. Look at brawn, they have one 5 races and have one sponsor.

      If the top teams and drivers, the ones that you and i know and love leave what happens your interest in the sport falls. Money that bernie earns disappers over night. the financial peanlity is so huge no private team that has no funding behind can even consider filling in the gap of Ferrai, mclaren, etc etc. the only teams that have left f1 are the ones that were in it to make money. Even Paul Stoddard made money in f1.

      1. So far this year the only race to have viewing figures in the Top 30 of BBC programmes for its’ week was Bahrain (at 23rd) with 4.39 million.
        Given that`s just the top 30 BBC 1 programmes (& not even UK the top 30 UK programmes) it shows it`s pretty poor now, anyway, even with a Brit running away with the Championship.
        Going back a few years ago F1 was regularly in the top 30 (all channels)

  47. what is the cash value of F1? what are the chances of FOTA members buying out CVC’s control? minuscule, i’m sure.

    still, a FOTA-owned F1 would be a huge success for all. senior teams could buy in for full price, and vacant slots could be sold off to small, but credible, operations. the FIA would regulate (according to FOTA’s terms) and they could hire bernie to promote.

    ridiculous, i know.

  48. I suggest name FOTA-1 which will become F1 automatically. Go FOTA

  49. This is not conjecture …

    It is, until events prove you right or wrong. IndyCar is just one data point; you never know how things might have turned out if either of the split series had executed better. We can only use this one data point as a guide and a precedent. If we had lots and lots of series that split and turned out to be ghosts of their former selves, then your argument would have more weight, and maybe move beyond simple conjecture and speculation.

    Imagine your doctor using a single previous clinical case to make a diagnosis …

    You haven’t even looked at things from a financial angle – which would be more profitable and sustainable – doing a slow glide down, or a drastic cut as suggested by Mosley? An analysis of the financials of the participating companies and their vulnerabilities to renewed financial problems needs to be taken into account – this is what purportedly Mosley wants to mitigate. Look at what happened to Honda. You may conclude whatever you like, but at least do the analysis before making a judgement.

    But it’s so much easier to write up an emotional rant and state that someone is “wrong.”

    Conjecture, speculation, and prediction – that’s what this blog is turing into. Not very different from the comments.

  50. i always knew max mosley was a nutcase, but today he’s gone one step ahead and completely proved me correct. I stand vindicated. he’s completely lost in a reality forgotten land. this is the height of lunacy. no responsible head of a international organization would utter such nonsense. what does he mean by saying F1 can do without the nine teams. this is just unbelivable. he has no respect for the chair he holds. the guy must understand that the teams were the ones who put him onto the coveted chair. This is a perfect example of misuse of power & authority. This guy is hell bent upon inflicting incurable wounds on the sport. the way things are moving we might lose the sport forever. isn’t there a voluntary retirement scheme in the FIA? please this man should be kept as far away as possible from f1. first he lost his image, then he lost his son, now he is hell bent on losing the sport. it was very clear from the outset that these decisions were only of max. how can one lunatic be allowed to hold the entire sport at randsom? i’ve long ago realized that online petitions are of no use. we the average f1 fan must do something about this man. i would suggest boycotting the races, be it on the circuits,TV,internet, print media everywhere. why i say this is, the only man who i think is capable of installing some sense into max mosley is bernie. now bernie handles the commercial aspects of f1. so without “us” the average f1 fan, bernie=0, so in such a scenario, max will have to give into bernie’s demands. we all know how greedy & commercial bernie is. so there is no way bernie will put max ahead of his commercial interests. so the only way to save this sport is to completely BOYCOTT it until max gives into bernie’s demand. There is an old chinese proverb:

    “A JOURNEY OF THOUSAND MILES BEGINS WITH A SINGLE STEP”.

    so i’ve taken my first step. i’ll not be watching the turkish gp on tv. so definitely the TRP rating will go down, cuz many of my friends will be joining my boycott, we are about 600 ppl. hope ppl do the same thing. this is to bring the trp rating down. bernie always keeps blabbing tv viewers. he’s gone as far as saying that TV audiences are more important than circuit fans. so this boycott must pinch bernie in his butt. only then he’ll blink.

  51. i think max is having some physhatric disease.weekly once he is changing his words.

  52. I don’t think Mosley is seriously calling for the FOTA teams to start a breakaway series – he’s calling their bluff.

    Mosley and Ecclestone have been working for the last five years to prevent a breakaway series. Both will know precisely how damaging it would be and of course they’ve seen the terrible example of the CART/IRL split. Both also know the difficulties in organising a rival series – back in the days of FOCA, Max and Bernie successfully used it as a bluff to face off against Jean-Marie Balestre and FISA.

    Despite the bluster, the manufacturers don’t seriously want a breakaway series and Max and Bernie know it.

  53. there are just too many personal feuds going on in F1. i understand big corporations having a lot to gain or loose here. but the FIA’s authority over some area of the competition have to be considered.

    FOTA is right in wanting to be included in the rule making, especially when the changes in the rules affect their day to day operations and ultimate profitability. BUT…. the FIA, and i;m not siding with Mosley here… has been mentioning budget cuts for years now, and the steps the teams collectively have taken are not enough, and are threatening the existence of the smaller teams, not to mention the budgets are so big it’s almost impossible for new team to convince investors that it’s a sound investment.

    take Toyota, they have poured billions in 8 years and the best to show for it is pole and ZERO wins. that is not a sound investment.

    I am an advocate that F1 should ideally have unlimited funding, and restricted only to the ability of the human element (driver) and spectator safety, AKA formula X.

    But the above is not financially feasible, and even Ferrari will have a hard time justifying expenses or even affording it.

    therefore cuts should be done, and i oppose mosley’s strictness and stance, but i believe if the teams actually wanted the good of the sport rather than their individual benefits they would have got to a compromise. but this dancing around, name calling and throwing blame around is not helping either. and the Collective Ego of the FOTA alliance has proved to be Less than that of Mosley and his crew, so far

    in any case, i think that a restricted budget on all teams will lead to substantial improvements in cost effective technology and translated to a great racing formula. and the teams can be effective in that new era of formula one.

    in the end, i’m quite sure all this debacle is caused by Bernie’s reluctance to share more of the profits with the teams. at the bottom of every crisis lies politics, and that is motivated by money and greed.

    1. Ah! I’m not alone, at last another voice of reason.

    2. Toom the words right out of my mouth! ;D

    3. Sorry thats meant to read, “Took the words right out of my mouth!”

  54. What more can anyone say Keith. This lunatic needs to go NOW!

  55. I never was a big fan of Mosley, but in this case I do feel he has a point. 80 to 100 million should be enough to race 2 cars for a season with 18 races. Audi reportedly spents 70 million annually for it’s Le Mans undertaking.

    The teams were asked to be involved in the reduction of the budgets. The teams have been promising to come up cost cutting measures. What happened? The budgets have barely gone down at all. The teams did nothing!

    They had their chance, had their say, came up with zilch and then the FIA decides on it’s own. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. What’s the problem?

    So you can blame Mosly for putting this to them very last minute. However, the teams were told about the 30 million budget cap even before the 2009 season started. They did … nothing!

    Personally I feel that the car manufacturers have ruined F1. Their big budgets made it impossible for other teams to compete and they turned their drivers into PR robots.

    The teams have all claimed to step away from F1 if they don’t get their wishes granted. It’s not Mosley who came up with the idea that they would leave.

    Besides who takes Ferrari and their ridiculous “we will leave F1” claims still serious? This is the fourth time or so that they say they will leave F1 if their wishes are not met. If you keep saying that every few years, people don’t perceive it as a real threat anymore.

    Personally I do think the budget cuts are going a bit too fast. But then who am I to say which is the best way to go forward. It might not be so bad at all. The new teams are looking for manufacturing capacity and the big teams now have spare capacity. Like Wurz was reported to look into using up a big teams spare manufacturing capacity.

    Ferrari could use the extra budget to start a Le Mans adventure next to their F1 team. BMW might add a DTM team. Maybe they can use their extra factory resources for other things than just F1.

    1. Patrickl, that was absolutely spot on!

      …and a fantastic point about the spare manufacturing capacity being used/taken by the smaller teams… but more so that the manufacturers can branch into other series with their extra cash and spare capacity and give Motorsport generally a big shot in the arm.

      As much as I’m against total manufacturer dominance, if they want to market their brand what best way to do it than a three pronged attack in F1, Touring Cars & Le Mans… all to an equality set of rules with the privateer teams.

    2. If ALL the teams were to leave, and formed their own championship, I think it could be a success…. Just look at the Premier league, it split away to form it’s own league and it has become massive!

      What I am concerned about is the car manufacturers.
      Like honda, one or more of these manufacurers could leave could just up and leave without warning then there could be trouble.

      I was never a fan of manufacturers taking over teams as they are not there to race, they are there to make €€€€€€€ and lots of it.

      Anyway I’ll continue with my point.

      Ferrari – Ferrari
      Torro Rosso – Ferrari
      Mclaren – Mercedes
      Brawn – Mercedes
      Force India – Mercedes
      Red Bull – Renault
      Renault – Renault
      Toyota – Toyota
      Williams – Toyota
      BMW – BMW

      As you can see from the list the ten of the teams are supplied with engines from only five manufacturers, (I know Williams have signed up for 2010 already, I just put them in to make the point.)

      We all know how badly car sales are being hit at the moment, (I’m sure Ferrari and Mercedes are being hit also), and if the global recession does not get better any time soon, then these FIVE engine suppliers could theoretically pull out of F1 or the Premier Formula League or whatever it could be called in the future.

      So the way I see it is that F1 is being held to ransom by FIVE car manufacturers.

      Don’t get me wrong, I still watch F1, but it’s not like the old days of private teams with double-barrell names that were there to race!

  56. The sooner F1 gets shot of Mosley the better for the sport! I wish the teams would break away and get back to the fastest car wins rather than this contrived racing under the FIA’s mismanagement.

  57. Dougie and Rich are doing it tough here but we who want a racing and innovation focused perspective are not interested in the FOTA guys that are just trying to corner their market. We are interested in competition and little guys that can make good on innovation and raw talent. Right now raw talent can’t rise, even Brawn are doing it on misplaced Honda pounds.

    We want new Brabhams and Tyrrells. We don’t want Bennetons and Ferrari’s. I supported Red Bull and support Webber but I don’t support them if they run under the FOTA umbrella. So what do you guys think was the type of competitor by caste do you want to root for Brabham – Bennetton – Renault?

    1. Spot on m0tion.

      I don’t support McLaren (though I admired Ron & loved Senna) or Ferrari (though I did admire Schumi & Ross) and I certainly will NEVER support Toyota or BMW.

      I will always support Williams, who have always done it the right way. I support Brawn (because I’ve always believed in Jenson, and I admire Ross, and I believe, although they are where they are through Honda money, they will continue to run by the Williams model). I supported Minardi and Gian Carlo’s spirit, I even liked Stoddart.

      I respect the small teams that do it best with very little, and I want to see an equal competition for them and the drivers.

  58. Bigbadderboom
    5th June 2009, 11:21

    Surely the point of discussion is to raise potential outcomes, objections and interpretations as we the fans perceive things to be.
    In all of this the most dissapointing aspect for me is the total absence of any consideration for the followers of the sport. The sponsors back the sport to raise their profiles with the fans, the fans pay big money to follow the sport, the fans buy the merchandise and subscribe to the various paraphanalia and satalite industries that circle F1. These all seems to be self serving arguments from both sides, but nobody seems to be promoting the fans opinions, and that is wrong.
    The question is can the current situation be resolved? I think that question can only be answered by Mr Ecclestone, he has the most to lose, and he holds the commercial interests, so he must be the one to bring the two factions together. I only hope he has not lost his ringmaster like ability to turn the situation around. Formula 1 without Ferrari and McLaren and the teams that have changed their guises over the years would not be worth following, it would lose it’s value, and a breakaway would take a long time to establish value……everybody will lose if this comes to a head.
    There has to be compromise and I get the opinion that is what FOTA are looking to do, they want to negotiate, with FOTA we have a collection of very intelligent, smart and focused people, in the FIA we have a man obsessed with power, he is desperate to hold his seat for as long as possible. I believed initially that although his arguments are often misinformed and out of touch, he had the sports interest at heart, unfortunatley his recent comments have now changed my opinion, I’m not sure if FOTA’s demands are right but i am sure the FIA’s stance is wrong.

    1. Personally I agree with your sentiments, and I hope that my vision of an future F1 (not as Max is positioning and not as FOTA is positioning, but somewhere between) does meet those.

      However, that aside, I do feel that the FIA and FOTA are as much to blame as each other for this situation. Max has laid his cards out long ago, and FOTA sat around and finally did something when time was running it, and here we are. Both Max and FOTA have had constructive meetings and conceded on various points, but somehow this still seems to suddenly come to blows… and I think Toyota and John Howett have more to do with that than anything, I wouldn’t be surprised if he has a hidden agenda to break down these talks so Toyota has a face saving way out.

      When you read his recent comments alongside Mario Thiessens comments, there does seem to be a big difference in agression and willingness to collaborate with the FIA.

      1. Bigbadderboom
        5th June 2009, 20:17

        Agreed about Toyota, I have serious reservations about their motives, Max is right to be suspicious about the manufacturers. After reading Marios comments it does seem to me that FOTA are trying to move the goalposts somewhat, Max did agree to a block entry with conditions, however now it appears those conditions were changed on submission, I find myself less inclined to sympathise with FOTA on this, they have to be careful or they will lose the fans support, and that may turn out to be key in the resolution of this dispute.

  59. I recon it’s all about calling ones bluff, brinkmanship, smoke and daggers, call it whatever you wish…

  60. I really do hate this bloke

  61. pps. that was in reply to Alex Bkk

  62. GooddayBruce
    5th June 2009, 13:01

    Keith lays the SMACKDOWN on Mosley. He probably liked it though…

    This man has done NOTHING positive for F1 in almost two decades of FIA presidency with the notable exception of his work in safety. He is too close to the commercial rights owner and this relationship has often impaired his judgement. Fancy offering a sporting advantage to one of the competing teams for 10 years, and allowing the commercial rights to be sold – to the undoubted disadvantage of the sport – just to make a buck or two for his old mucker Bernard.

    There have been a lot of respected commentators (Mike Lawrence on Pitpass and others) who have suggested that Ferrari see themselves as bigger than the sport. I would say the same about Mosley for the reasons you point out in this article.

    His continued involvement in F1’s governance is no longer required. Sadly thanks to the FIA’s rotten structure of governance and rampant corruption he will probably rule for as long as he wants.

    If he is re-elected this year then maybe a break-away series is the only option for the future of Grand Prix racing.

  63. Completely agree with the article.

    I think the best thing that could happen to F1, is if Mosley had nothing to do with it ever again

  64. It all comes down to this. Greed and power. M.M. and B.E. just want money for themselves and they want they are using their position to get it. They don’t care about the fans. I’m not saying that they teams care about us lowly fans that much more, but i think they have a better understading that we too have to be pleased above all esle because without us there would be no F1.
    As an example, I’m sure that Red Bull would love to do all they could to make things as easy and fun for the fans at race weekends because they understand that to sell, you have to give. But at the same time, B.E. would have rather everyone in attendance be wearing a suit and have a martini in hand.
    I agree that the FIA should make the on track rules, but they should stay the heck out of the teams financial business. No team will spend more than they can, thats why the have accountants. All that M.M’s new regs will do is allow teams like Litespeed and other small non-competative teams enter the championship and water it down.
    This league needs to be more fan friendly if it wansts to survive. I live in Canada and I have had to sit by and watch our national pastime of hockey watered down and ruined by men in suits. Too many teams, not enough talent to go around. Hockey sucks, that why i switched to F1 and now its about to go to crap. I just want to watch good competative racing, but i guess that won’t happen as long as B.E. and M.M. are in charge.
    One question. is there any rule or reg that the teams could exploit that would get M.M. and B.E. removed from FIA? because if there is I’m sure they would have done it already but I’m just curious.

  65. I firmly beleive that if the FIA was effectively and well run, then the teams would be happy to stick with the racing & leave the FIA to it. Most of the FOTA members are in it for the racing and are not businessmen by nature, but even so I am far more impressed with their efforts lately than S&Max’s.

    Say what you want about ego’s & who is obstructing the future path of F1, but the fact remains that there can only be one person responsible for the shambles that is the FIA.

    Having said that, I don’t beleive that there will be a split. The only reason for that is because Bernie would lose too much money if that happened, so I fully expect him to bring his dog to heel before things take that path.

  66. I should have added that, as the Entry Form contains the statement “We hereby apply to enter the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the standard regulations/under the cost cap regulations (delete as appropriate) and we undertake to participate in each and every Event :” that the teams were left with little choice but to do what they did. Max hasn`t really shifted an inch since the cap regs were first published.

    persempre, jeez! this is the reason why Max suggested they submit conditional entries, to cover that. I guess he had the “outcome of the negotiations” in mind and not the conditions that the teams submitted!

  67. I should have added that, as the Entry Form contains the statement “We hereby apply to enter the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the standard regulations/under the cost cap regulations (delete as appropriate) and we undertake to participate in each and every Event :” that the teams were left with little choice but to do what they did. Max hasn`t really shifted an inch since the cap regs were first published.

    persempre, jeez! this is the reason why Max suggested they submit conditional entries, to cover that. I guess he had the “outcome of the negotiations” in mind and not the conditions that the teams submitted!

  68. I should have added that, as the Entry Form contains the statement “We hereby apply to enter the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the standard regulations/under the cost cap regulations (delete as appropriate) and we undertake to participate in each and every Event :” that the teams were left with little choice but to do what they did. Max hasn`t really shifted an inch since the cap regs were first published.

    I meant replies to this above… yeesh!

  69. I’m really bored with this now, and in more the website is doing funny things with my posts. I’ll see you on another post sometime, but not in the same way. Take it easy.

    Chicken!!!

  70. Dougie

    There is a good article on ITV regarding FOTA starting there own championship. James allen points to the fact that if FOTA go ahead a do there own championship, which they will own and run, they will get the same money they are currently getting from Bernie. That is a great incentive to start you own series. That is in the first year. As popularity increases which is will more cash comes in. It all hedges on the FOTA sticking together. Why would you want to stay with f1, if all the big names go to a new series. F1 will be dead overnight. I hope they do it. You as well as i know people will follow mclaren,ferrari, renault, alonso, vetell, hamilton etc etc before lite speed, williams, lola with no name drivers.

    Bernie will be gone FIA gone. I hope they do it. Funding will be realigned as it should be and the problem of a dictatorship is gone.

  71. OK,
    What I see is a repeat of the Tony George/CART battle of a few years ago.. Tony/Max, the huge egos who are interested only in their own power and supposed stature in the press, and the teams and drivers, who want to have a great racing series… In the case of F1, the top of the entire world in tech and skill… Tony insisted that he was creating an ovals only series for “American” drivers, see the latest IRL stats, mostly foreign drivers racing on virtually all the circuits that CART used to race on, and now CART and IRL are merged and not any better than CART was to begin with… just a 1 manufacturer, 1 engine builder series that is boring as hell.. If you listen to what Max is proposing, carefully, it is the exact same thing, a spec series that is run all over the planet, but still boring as hell… Let the teams do what they want, give them a chance to downsize their budgets, and not just chop them off at the knees.. If not we will have two milk toast series, neither of which will be worth watching…

  72. OK,

    What I see is a repeat of the Tony George/CART battle of a few years ago.. Tony/Max the huge egos who are interested only in their own power and supposed stature in the press, and the teams and drivers, who want to have a great racing series… In the case of F1, the top of the entire world in tech and skill… Tony insisted that he was creating an ovals only series for “American” drivers, see the latest IRL stats, mostly foreign drivers racing on virtually all the circuits that CART used to race on, and now CART and IRL are merged and not any better than CART was to begin with… just a 1 manufacturer, 1 engine builder series that is boring as hell.. If you listen to Max is proposing, carefully, it is the exact same thing, a spec series that is run all over the planet, but still boring as hell… Let the teams do what they want, give them a chance to downsize their budgets, and not just chop them off at the knees.. If not we will have two milk toast series, neither of which will be worth watching…

  73. Dougie, you are as deluded as Max.
    A man that thinks S&M Orgies behind his wife’s back are acceptable has clearly got a screw loose. I’m still aghast that he had the nerve to stay on, name any other position of responsibility where he wouldn’t have been held accountable. We not talking a mild affair, this is a S&M orgy, it’s extreme and just shows what this man’s values are.

    So the solution is FOTA split and build a proper league run democratically with no chance of a single power hungry megalomaniac dictatorship.
    You can follow the FIA and their ‘good ol days’ league and the rest the world can watch the new series that is modern F1.

  74. Gone are the days where F1 was about cutting edge technology, pushing the boundaries of speed and the sheer excitement of genuine racing!!! Mosley is so focused on his own ambition that he has completely lost touch with what the sport stands for and what the fans want.

    If it takes the creation of a new competition by the FOTA teams to get rid of Mosley, I know where my allegiances will lie….Mosley must go.

  75. First the hookers, then Ron Dennis, now it is time to screw ze teams.

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