2010 F1 teams list to be announced (Update: FIA has revealed list)

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

How many teams will be on the FIA's entry list for 2010?
How many teams will be on the FIA's entry list for 2010?

Today the FIA is due to finally announce its F1 teams entry list for 2010 – the consequences of which could be far-reaching for Formula 1.

There have been signs in recent days that Max Mosley and the eight remaining teams represented by FOTA might be close to a compromise solution.

The list published by the FIA today will tell us whether it believes a compromise is workable or if it’s resigned to driving many of the existing teams out of the sport.

Update: The FIA’s list has been published – see the comments for details.

The row has dragged on for so long that, amid all the talk of a breakaway championships and changes in the technical regulations, it’s easy to lose sight of what’s important.

What began as a discussion on how to guarantee the long-term future at the sport has turned into a conflict that arguably places it in even greater jeopardy than the recession does.

Max Mosley insisted that, as none of the manufacturer teams had agreed to commit to Formula 1 for the future, it is essential that F1 run to a budget cap.

Although he has still not conceded that fundamental point, yesterday it emerged that he had suddenly yielded on several key areas – for example, potentially allowing a cap of ??100m which is more than the ??47m originally proposed.

Mosley remains fixed on the idea of a budget cap despite the FOTA teams having offered him the commitment he demanded until at least 2012. One therefore has to ask whether what he really wanted all along was not a commitment from the teams to stay in F1, but something else.

Among the points conceded by Mosley yesterday were:

  • Potential increase of the cap to ??100m followed by a ‘glide’ towards a lower limit
  • Exemptions from the budget cap for highly-paid staff other than drivers
  • Not giving performance advantages to budget-capped teams
  • Signing of a new Concorde Agreement (to define the future governance of the sport and distribution of income)

Aside from sticking to his plan for some form of a cap, this amounts to a U-turn on almost every one of Mosley’s positions. But one thing is conspicuously missing from Mosley’s offer – any mention of reform to the governance of F1.

This has become a significant issue for the teams, tired of the endless political bickering that goes on in Formula 1, and seeing Mosley as the one responsible for it.

Mosley had previously indicated he will make a decision this month on whether he will stand for another term as president of the FIA. Are the teams holding out for an assurance that he will not run again come October?

The point at which reconciliation was the smart thing to do passed a long time ago. Now it is the only thing to do.

As I wrote last week, I firmly believe the FIA should have taken up the teams’ offer of a deal for the next three years. I hope later today we will not be ruing their failure to seize that opportunity.

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174 comments on “2010 F1 teams list to be announced (Update: FIA has revealed list)”

  1. Prisoner Monkeys
    12th June 2009, 0:30

    Assuming that all ten current teams are included, I’m banking on the new places to go to Campos, Team US-F1 and Prodrive. Lola might buy Toro Rosso or Renault if they leave.

  2. Alike Prisoner, i’ll predict the 3 new teams that’ll come into the sport providing the current 10 (which Williams and FIndia we know for a fact) so technically the ‘FOTA 8’ stay in the sport. USGPE will defiently get one of the spots. Prodrive with Richards backing would be good as would Campos. So it’ll be those 3.

    Although the Litespeed entry rumoured to be the new ‘Lotus’ with Herbert and Gasgoyne on board would be gr8, i cant see them getting a spot.

    Prisoner raises a gr8 point in saying about STR, as i believe at the end of this year they will be sold, so should Lola/Prodrive not get a spot automatically they could just buy STR quietly after the season and come in straight in the new year as a repackaged team.

  3. “he had suddenly yielded on several key areas”

    this seems to be a link to nowhere. entirely appropriate, i think :)

    1. Prisoner Monkeys
      12th June 2009, 1:52

      Autosport are reporting it, too.

  4. If this is true Keith the icing on the cake would be Mosley announcing he is stepping down in october.

  5. I have trouble believing that this report is accurate. The new teams would all fail and probably not even make the grid even if paired with existing teams. The money just isn’t out there for no hopers. Even Brawn will struggle.

  6. I suspect that Mosley will only resign when he can do so without looking like he was forced into it. I can’t imagine how he would couch his resignation in triumph.

    But FOTA, the FIA, and Mosley in particular have impressed me with their ability to make defeat look like victory.

    So I wish Max a graceful exit, and I look forward to his replacement.

  7. I had read that Mosley was going to agree to 100m euros for 2010 and then 45m euros the following year.
    That does not seem much of a glide.

    As for the teams line up i hope all the current teams are there, or maybe the loss of toro roso to one of the new teams. I don’t like the idea of new fake teams so i don’t mind Lola, Prodrive and UsGp.

    Once everything is sorted i hope that formula one can stabilise and have the same regulations that work for several season with being messed about with.

    1. Prisoner Monkeys
      12th June 2009, 1:57

      I had read that Mosley was going to agree to 100m euros for 2010 and then 45m euros the following year.
      That does not seem much of a glide.

      Everything’s negotiable. Mosley might want to halve the budget cap for 2011, but that’s still eighteen months away. A lot can happen between now and then.

  8. I will be very disappointed if the entry list comes out without the manufacturers. I want to see USF1 in the mix but not at the expense of Ferrari, Mclaren and the rest. However, after reading about the dramatic last moment pole position of Peugeut and the epic battle that looms with Peugeut and Audi this weekend it would be unbelievable to see Ferrari, Renault, Toyota et al in the mix next year!

  9. Prisoner Monkeys
    12th June 2009, 1:50

    Either way, we’ll know in a few hours. Someone on another forum allegedly knows people in Lola and claims they’ve already been told they’re in, but the person who posted it has admitted they find the claim iffy at best.

    I’ve long believed that neither FOTA or the FIA want the manufacturers to leave and that they simply cannot see eye-to-eye on the matter. It wouldn’t surprise me if the eight remaining FOTA teams were included on the entry list regardless with the FIA telling them they can back out if they wish without incurring the usual penalties.

  10. Let’s face facts here, Bernie can’t sue Renault/Ferrari/Toyota if they are excluded from the championship. If however they are part of the championship, refuse to race and form a rival series then he can sue them.

    All what Max has done is given his left arm (Bernie) some leverage to use on the teams. What they will be hoping is that FOTA don’t create a rival series and deliberately field poor teams in the F1 championship thereby corrupting the on-track product in F1 and making the FOTA championship look better.

    Then if a FOTA Championship can nail the following five elements then F1 will be doomed:
    1) Track Selection
    2) V10 Engines
    3) Stability of Regulations
    4) Customer Cars/Components, and
    5) HD-TV Broadcasting

    That is why we’ve had all the smoke screens coming from both FIA and FOM to put enough doubt in FOTA’s mind to abandon any thought of a rival series and get them to tow their line.

    Like I said earlier expect FOTA to be named tommorow, I would be extremely suprised if they aren’t.

    1. Add to that free broadcasts on the internet, and allowing footage on Youtube. Not doing that at the moment is only going to hurt F1’s popularity with casual fans, and annoy dedicated fans.

      1. They have to balance popularity with profits.

    2. Prisoner Monkeys
      12th June 2009, 2:19

      Then if a FOTA Championship can nail the following five elements then F1 will be doomed:
      1) Track Selection
      2) V10 Engines
      3) Stability of Regulations
      4) Customer Cars/Components, and
      5) HD-TV Broadcasting

      They can’t. Not in six months. A year, maybe, but there’s no way they can have it by the start of 2010.

      1. Why can’t they?

        I have seen plenty of arguments of why they can’t but how do we know if FOTA hasn’t been in private negotiations with track owners? Surely they would jump on the chance to have a more profitable grand prix.

        And don’t forget who is the backbone of FOTA – Ferrari, Toyota, Renault, BMW and Mercedes. I am sure they have enough of a marketing arm collectively to push a new racing series within 6 months.

        I wouldn’t be suprised if they do have a 6 month roadmap, similarly I wouldn’t be suprised if they don’t bother with a rival series and just go to LeMans (or other).

      2. they could easily have this an more. All they need to do is call motogp founder and it will be organised in a matter of weeks. Teams are not stupid. Bernie makes things sound difficult but in actual fact they are not. Racing on road courses will be hard however existing race tracks will have no problem.

        Mugello
        Silverstone
        San Marino
        Laguna Seca
        Indy
        Phillip Island
        Barcelona
        hockienhiem
        Suzuka
        Barhrain

        None of these tracks are owned by bernie and they have every right to host what ever gp they like.

        Moto gp race at 18 tracks prime for f1. track fees will be a 3rd of what bernie charges,(tracks will make money not lose money) and Tv companies will flock to the new series. ITV, RAI, EUROSPORT, Every current opposition sports network in each country will apply. This is not taking into account how many existing tv contract would fall over, of which would be several… Rules can be simply identical to this year. No difference. existing cars can remain the same. The teams own the cars not the FIA or Bernie.

        Personally i hope a rival championship starts. And f1 collapses so bernie and the FIA disappear. they will cry for the manufactures to come back. If this does not happen now we will have the same issue in 3 years. F1 problem is how the money is distributed, Teams are getting screwed.

        1. We could add a few more tracks to your list:
          Brands Hatch
          Sebring
          Watkins Glen
          Jacarepagua (Rio)
          Zandvoord
          Montreal
          Magni Cours

          1. Sorry, Antifia
            Jacarepagua is gone, because of work done for the PanAmerican games…

          2. GooddayBruce
            12th June 2009, 15:04

            I think that a breakaway series would be totally possible at short notice if they raced with this years cars. I think it will run at a loss and the minute it is underway FOTA will fall out over the rules.

            The only way that a breakaway will work is as a threat and to put pressure on Max to resign. Then it can be scrapped. I reckon the shelf-life will be about 1 year

            As for the circuits?

            Mugello – bike track – no
            Silverstone – yes
            San Marino – yes
            Laguna Seca – too short
            Indy – yes
            Phillip Island – too small
            Barcelona – too rubbish
            hockienhiem – yes
            Suzuka – yes
            Barhrain – yes
            Brands Hatch – yes but questionable facilities
            Sebring – no!
            Watkins Glen – too old
            Jacarepagua (Rio) – gone
            Zandvoord – too small and too short
            Montreal – yes!
            Magni Cours – too rubbish but acceptable

            How good does this sound?
            Portero los funes
            Melbourne
            Long Beach
            Bahrain
            Imola
            Jerez
            Monaco
            Montreal
            Indy
            magny cours
            Silverstone
            Nurburgring
            Portimao
            Spa
            Monza
            Suzuka
            Laguna Seca
            Interlagos

          3. @ GooddayBruce
            Laguna Seca too short??
            Come on – the IndyCars have always been racing there and it’s a fantastic venue!
            The corkscrew = win!
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB_k_wlr5Bc

  11. Why do they have to have a rival series up and running by next march?
    Can’t we dedicated fans put up with a wait until 2011 for an alternative to F1 if the FOTA teams are not included.
    Maybe by the end of 2010 with a diluted series we will be begging to wath the new series.

  12. One option I saw a while ago, and which makes sense, is for FOTA to buy out A1GP, which has been losing money so fast it makes a tea strainer look ineffective!

    If they did that, what they would have ‘bought’ would be (aside from the debt of the series!) an already FIA approved series, an exisitng set of deals with circuits and promoters, and the rights to several TV deals around the world.

    If they took it over, they could then change the rules as they saw fit, making the teams 2-cars instead of 1 (or even 3), put in place the same tech regs as currently exist, and then just get on with it.

    the other nice point here would be that the A1GP season starts in the later part of one year, and carries over into the next, so if they all see out 2009, then buy A1GP, let the existing A1 season finish in early-mid 2010, make the changes and then kick of in Sep/Oct 2010, they don’t have to make it work in 6 months, but will have more than a year to get it right.

    Sounds like an easier way of getting their own championship than starting from scratch, yes?

    Having said all of that, I hope it does not come to this…

    1. Problem is A1 has the FIA involved and the A1 Tv deals are worthless, no money in it. Furthermore half of the the tracks they use are not up to scratch in terms of f1 standard.

      They would have no issues starting a new series. There is no tv or tracks in the world that would turn down the opportunity to host a series or race with Ferrari, merc, Renault, Toyota, Redbull etc etc not only that subject to rules, i have no doubt other teams would follow. Sponsorship dollars is what counts not a name.

      1. A1 is not an FIA Championship, though. They make their own rules, phil. The FIA has only a policing role.

        Yes, the TV deals are poor. Most of the problem being that the races tend not to be shown on free to view. However, TV follows where they think the interest & money is.
        Unless there has already been an enormous amount of planning going on behind the scenes (always possible but not highly likely as the teams first choice would be a sensible F1) then 2010 would be pushing it, I think.

  13. Prisoner Monkeys
    12th June 2009, 4:06

    I have seen plenty of arguments of why they can’t but how do we know if FOTA hasn’t been in private negotiations with track owners? Surely they would jump on the chance to have a more profitable grand prix.

    Because circuit owners won’t want to **** the FIA and FOM off too much. The threat of a breakaway series is only a last-minute resort, and it’s one that’s been thrown around quite often in the past but has never come to fruition. FOTA might say they’re serious now, but they’ve said that before, too, and look what came of it: nothing. And considering that the latest threat of a rival series has only come about since around Monaco, there hasn’t been much time for negotiations, espeially since FOTA are busy negotiating with the FIA.

    None of these tracks are owned by bernie and they have every right to host what ever gp they like.

    Those that are currently with the FIA signed a contract with FOM, and you can bet that Bernie Ecclestone has a clause in each and every one of those contracts that says the FIA has exclusive rights to hosting the world’s premier open-wheel racing formula. As for the likes of Mugello, Phillips Island and Laguna Seca, they are either under-funded, lacking the facilities needed to host a race of this magnitude, or unsafe for Formula One.

    Personally i hope a rival championship starts. And f1 collapses so bernie and the FIA disappear.

    Don’t hold your breath. It’s better that one man owns the rights to Formula One than to have a dozen men squabbling over who controls what. As for the FIA, Formula One isn’t the only thing they control. Both GP2 series, the World Rally Championship, World Touring Cars, GT3 and every single national sports car organisation and series answers to rules dictated by the FIA. If you get rid of Formula One, they don’t just disappear.

    Why do they have to have a rival series up and running by next march?

    Because if they delay, they risk never starting at all. If there’s a breakaway series, the FIA World Championship will still be going ahead. If FOTA don’t do anything, it would be even harder for them to create a serious rivalry because the FIA will have not only drawn the audiences, they’ll also point to the lack of a FOTA series as proof that FOTA cannot run one on their own.

  14. Prisoner Monkeys
    12th June 2009, 4:07

    I have seen plenty of arguments of why they can’t but how do we know if FOTA hasn’t been in private negotiations with track owners? Surely they would jump on the chance to have a more profitable grand prix.

    Because circuit owners won’t want to annoy the FIA and FOM too much. The threat of a breakaway series is only a last-minute resort, and it’s one that’s been thrown around quite often in the past but has never come to fruition. FOTA might say they’re serious now, but they’ve said that before, too, and look what came of it: nothing. And considering that the latest threat of a rival series has only come about since around Monaco, there hasn’t been much time for negotiations, espeially since FOTA are busy negotiating with the FIA.

    None of these tracks are owned by bernie and they have every right to host what ever gp they like.

    Those that are currently with the FIA signed a contract with FOM, and you can bet that Bernie Ecclestone has a clause in each and every one of those contracts that says the FIA has exclusive rights to hosting the world’s premier open-wheel racing formula. As for the likes of Mugello, Phillips Island and Laguna Seca, they are either under-funded, lacking the facilities needed to host a race of this magnitude, or unsafe for Formula One.

    Personally i hope a rival championship starts. And f1 collapses so bernie and the FIA disappear.

    Don’t hold your breath. It’s better that one man owns the rights to Formula One than to have a dozen men squabbling over who controls what. As for the FIA, Formula One isn’t the only thing they control. Both GP2 series, the World Rally Championship, World Touring Cars, GT3 and every single national sports car organisation and series answers to rules dictated by the FIA. If you get rid of Formula One, they don’t just disappear.

    Why do they have to have a rival series up and running by next march?

    Because if they delay, they risk never starting at all. If there’s a breakaway series, the FIA World Championship will still be going ahead. If FOTA don’t do anything, it would be even harder for them to create a serious rivalry because the FIA will have not only drawn the audiences, they’ll also point to the lack of a FOTA series as proof that FOTA cannot run one on their own.

    1. The circuits are not controlled by the FIA or FOM. Silverstone can host any event is likes, it does not need permission from bernie.

      Bernie contracts will be all relating to f1, his contract cannot prevent these tracks hosting another open wheel series. This is restricting competition in the first instances and against the law. This is commercial suicide for all these tracks, purpose built tracks are there to host racing regardless of class. His contracts would be in relation to facility standards revenue etc etc and Formula One World Championship.

      Track standard whilst some tracks may be poor, for the terms of racing they are still perfectly fine. Starting from an average fan, you would rather pay 100 pounds to go to Silverstone for 4 days to see the FOTA teams then pay 400pounds for 4 days to see a bunch of nobodies at Donigton.

      The FIA controls a lot of series i agree, but popularity wise, and fines wise it is f1 that keeps it alive and in the spotlight. Im not sure but is there a need to have the FIA involved.

      As for the rights, i agree one man is better then 10 teams but at the end of the day I have said several times, the issue with f1 is the funding of it, fix the funding of it and there is no issue with money. F1 is the only sport in the world were the promotor and a bunch of suits make more money then the people promoting it. The teams should be getting a min of 85% of the total revenue. They promote the sport with racing not bernie, not max and not CVC. The fans get screwed and the teams get screwed. Bernie Should have sold the rights to the teams and only the teams.

    2. I agree with a lot of what you say, Prisoner, but some isn’t correct.
      First, the teams have never actually said they are thinking of an alternate F1 series. They`ve recently started to hint that it may be a possibility but their preference has always been to remain in F1 as long as F1 remains a sensible pinnacle of sport type series.

      Mugello could cope happily with F1 type events. Since Ferrari got involved with it, it has been used for testing & also for races/events which include the Ferrari F1 cars past & present.

      There are 27 FIA Championships for which the FIA makes regulations.These do not include GP2, A1 & many more (including many of the support races seen at F1 GP weekends).
      The series that are not “FIA Championships” make their own regulations which the FIA police. Hence why there`s no reason to necessarily expect that the same Stewards should act the same for, say, GP2, as for F1. GP2 has its` own rules which the Stewards have to follow.

      I personally don`t think that it would be necessary to rush into a new series (if one is even intended). From FOTA`s point of view it would be better to get it right & to see just how the FIA series fares as far as racing, fan numbers, circuits & TV broadcasters etc. go.
      They may just be able to sit back & wait for contracts to end & others disenchanted with FOM & FIA to come to them.

  15. History Lesson to be learned from IRL V CART. . .The only reason the IRL won was they had control of the Indy 500. No such thing exists in F1 and there are many many tracks to hold Grand Prix at throughout the world. This could be a long eternal split if that is indeed what happens.

    1. A comparable event in F1 would be Monaco. Their contract will come up for renewal and then they would move to where Ferrari is.

      Furthermore the CVC will collapse if the big teams go away, viewers are lost and contracts get renegotiated or go belly up.

      If the CVC collapses FOM is gone and then all bets are off.

      There is no way that a couple of GP2/F3 startups are going to outshine the manufacturers league.

      Look at F1 today. People are even bored of BrawnGP and Red Bull winning mainly because they are Ferrari, McLaren or Renault fans themselves. They don’t like watching unknown people race for the win.

      1. As was mentioned on the BBC coverage the other week, Monaco is the only circuit on the calendar that DOESN’T have a contract with Bernie…

        1. Not only that the prince of monoco said it wont host a race without ferrari and the big teams. It will be hard for monoco to host a gp for all the rich and famous without the brands the rich and famous use. (Ferrari) The glitz and glamour of famous names,the teams and money is what makes f1 work and the particular attraction to monoco, get rid of that and monoco disappears. That alone is worth several 100 million dollars to bernie. Monoco is the jewel in the crown when it comes to sponsors and tv. More poeple watch the monoco gp then any other race on the f1 calendar.

    2. History Lesson to be learned from IRL V CART. . .The only reason the IRL won was they had control of the Indy 500. No such thing exists in F1 and there are many many tracks to hold Grand Prix at throughout the world. This could be a long eternal split if that is indeed what happens.

      If it doesn’t it won’t be as big. There is nothing like NASCAR to come and make it bigger.

      I’m sure FOTA would be bigger than F1 with lots of good teams like Ferrari in it rather then useless teams with Cosworth engines.

  16. No doubt after today this story will keep on running as people further position and brief to gain a psychological upper hand…

  17. Steve, sorry but you are wrong, it exists and is called Monaco. I believe Bernie don’t have exclusive rights over it (but he does over some classic venues like Spa).

    1. yeah and bernie threatened spa rememeber. If there is another option, these tracks will tell bernie to stick it because what the tracks pay millions to host they can get the same product for 1/3 of the price.

  18. Reading the points on which Max has made his U turn has made me wonder how much of all this arguing has been just to keep his profile and ego in the public eye.
    I think he will be able to stand for re-election this year and point out how he saved F1 from the brink of disaster, managed to satisfy the FOTA demands, cut costs all round and still introduce three new teams into the sport.
    Yippee, give that man a medal……..

    1. You make it sound like cutting costs and introducing 3 new teams would be a bad thing?

      1. Its not a bad thing to start cutting costs and allowing more teams to enter.
        It is a bad thing to force every current team to agree to rules with an impossible deadline, then apparently do U turns on everything you were forcing through.
        All this could have been decided quietly over the summer, with long negotiations about the rules, cost cutting etc.
        Instead, Max is the one who has brought F1 near disaster, only to stop bullying at the last minute and play the hero.

        1. It has to be resolved quickly so that new teams can start building their cars. I have a funny feeling that all this posturing is really an effort by FOTA to secure more commercial revenues from Bernie – as iterated by Renault’s Goshn yesterday. I think that Ferrari, Toyota & the manufacturers have been the ones to bring F1 to the brink of disaster. When Ferrari issues a statement to the effect that either we race by our rules or we don’t race, well that sounds an awful lot like brinkmanship to me (and extremely childish & greedy to boot)!

  19. Reading the points on which Max has made his U turn, it has made me wonder how much of all this arguing has been done just to keep his profile and ego in the public eye.
    I think that when it comes to the elections, he will be able to point out how he saved F1 from the point of disaster, managed to satisfy all of FOTA’s demands, made the sport greener, cut costs all round and still introduced three new teams.
    Give that man a medal……

    1. you can delete this one Keith – my pc had a hiccup!

    2. You make a lot of sense.

      Though the only medal i would give Mosley is one of Ecclestone’s race winning medals lol.

  20. The list that’s going to be published today – it is FINAL is it? Or is there some kind of appeal mechanism whereby an existing team could avoid being omitted?

    1. you should know by now that nothing in f1 is final until a hearing, a mistrial, another hearing, an appeal, and some closed-door shenanigans have taken place. there is procedure to be observed.

      seriously tho, if there is room, a team can enter later at a higher price. if there isn’t room, a team can buy the spot of a listed team in addition to the late-entry fee. teams under contract to fom still must file for entry with the fia as a separate procedure.

      1. But if there are thirteen names on that list, and one of the current team names is not there, then the only way they can get onto the list is to come to a financial arrangement with one of the names that are on the list . . . correct?

  21. One therefore has to ask whether what he really wanted all along was not a commitment from the teams to stay in F1, but something else.

    The budget cap is to ensure new teams are able to enter. Mosley doesn’t just want some of the original teams to promise to stay, but he also wants new entries to fill the field.

    As I wrote last week, I firmly believe the FIA should have taken up the teams’ offer of a deal for the next three years. I hope later today we will not be ruing their failure to seize that opportunity.

    It makes sense that Mosley didn’t publicize his approval or disproval of FOTA’s suggestion right away. Mosley made his round along the new entries to see if they would agree with the higher budget cap for 2010.

  22. If they don’t name the FOTA teams they wont have enough teams to even start a series.Who is going to power them can cosworth make that many engines, gear boxs,what about chassis design and aero do these new teams have the technology to even build these cars.We could have a grid of cars that are lapping in aussie 10sec a lap slower than this year.There is no way max has thought this through at all, this is an egomaniac at his worst.And they cant get any faster as there under a cap this is just a very very bad joke.

  23. Assuming all the current teams are on the list I think the new ones will be USF1, Prodrive and possibly Lola, I hope than non of the teams that are trying to use classic team names to add credibility get in. I agree with previous comments that Toro Rosso will probably be sold soon, but potential buyers may wait till F1 finally has some stability, whenever that will be.

    I still find it hard to believe most of these potential new teams could be fully up and running by the start of next season whatever the rules are.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if everything s not resolved today and it drags on for quite a while.

    By the way is there a set time when the entry list is to be released or is it just due sometime today.

  24. I thought the list would be out by now.

    But anyhow i think all the FOTA teams will be on the list with a provisional next to them that is the only profesional thing to do if however (and this is 100 to 1 in my opinion put all new teams and get rid of FOTA teams) this forum will light up like a christmas tree on steriods.

    For me the only real intresting thing is if Ferrari and the Red Bull teams have been entered as unconditional or with a provisional tag (because of there signed agreement in 2005)

  25. bad_whippet
    12th June 2009, 11:00

    Cosworth unwilling to confirm F1 return…

    Interesting quote from Cosworth.

    http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090612102814.shtml

    So Max, who’s going to supply the engines to your Fisher Price F1 if Cosworth don’t?!!

    We’d have a field of cars running on the trusty old Rover K-Series ;)

    1. Norbert Haug and mercedes benz high performance engines is rubbing his hands togeather.

      Even if Mclarn arnt in F1 the engines are seperate and could still be supplies for a profit!

      1. I would also if i was one of the new teams perfer a Mercedes engine than a Cosworth based on the 2006 unit they supplied to williams.

        1. bad_whippet
          12th June 2009, 11:19

          Most definitely.

          They’d have to rewrite the rules again though, because there’s a limit to the number of teams a manufacturer can supply engines to.

          Still, it’s not like they ever bend the rules is it… ;)

    2. Nah, Cosworth didn’t want to say anything before the FIA release.

      Here’s their press statement:
      http://www.cosworth.com/Default.aspx?id=1097019

    3. Thinking back to some of the classic racing of the Rover days, that might not be such a bad idea, LOL

      And I’m sure by now everyone has seen the list of entrants for 2010.

      I think those who mentioned that all the drama may have been a bit of Machiavellian maneuvering by Max to set himself up as the hero who saved F1 may have a point. And now we see his next move–Ferrari, Toro Rosso & Red Bull are regular entries, no little asterick by their names. If they protest, he can point to them as the ones trying to ruin F1. Oh what wicked webs he weaves.

      In another forum I commented that forcing a beer budget on a champagne series was ludicrous, that F1 is the royalty of motorsport and it should be left to the teams to determine spending. If any team can’t stand the financial heat, then get out of the kitchen. If I want to see tightly controlled and budget-controlled racing, I’ll go watch some other series. That isn’t what I expect from F1.

  26. All 8 FOTA teams make entry list – According to initial reports, all 8 FOTA teams are included in the FIA’s entry list for 2010 …

    http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=38158

  27. The Spanish press (AS, Marca) is reporting that “Campos is in and Epsilon Euskadi is out” in the list published by the FIA. They do not publish the list, though.
    Where is the list?! Any links?

  28. FIA announces 2010 F1 entry list

    Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro Ferrari
    Scuderia Toro Rosso STR TBA
    Red Bull Racing Red Bull Racing TTBA
    At&T Williams Williams Toyota
    Force India F1 Team Force India Mercedes
    Campos Grand Prix Campos Cosworth
    Manor Grand Prix Manor Cosworth
    Team US F1 Team US F1 Cosworth
    Vodafone McLaren Mercedes* McLaren Mercedes
    BMW Sauber F1 Team* BMW Sauber
    Renault F1 Team* Renault
    Panasonic Toyota Racing* Toyota
    Brawn GP Formula One Team* Brawn TBA

    * These five teams have submitted conditional entries.The FIA has invited them to lift those conditions following further discussions to be concluded not later than close of business on Friday 19 June.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76045

    1. bad_whippet
      12th June 2009, 11:12

      Here’s a link to the FIA press release… not that it actually gives any more information!

      I’m really surprised Prodrive aren’t on the list, a bit disappointed too.

    2. Like I thought they are going to name them but not exclude them.

      Max will not get rid of the teams as I suggested in the earlier post so the ball is back in FOTA’s court. All they need to say is to either say we will enter or we won’t. I begin to really wonder what the actual status is with the contracts Bernie has the teams signed up on if they can leave without penalties or if some are applied.

      I also wonder about the bond that the FOTA teams signed recently, £50m for not breaking ranks between them (manufacturers only) how would that take affect if Ferrari do enter?

    3. What a joke. Manor racing?!!?! Who’s going to support them. Everyone wants to see someone like Aston in F1. Not MANOR!!

    4. The three new teams are all using the Cosworth engine. That’s why they were picked: they are following Mosley’s new idea of a spec series, basically.

  29. Considering we were told all the FOTA teams submitted a joint conditional entry, is Max trying to use his old tactic of divide and conquer by only granting entry to Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Rosso while telling the other five Brawn, McLaren, Renault BMW and Toyota they have to lift their conditions.

    Well I suppose I was right in saying that it wouldn’t be sorted today.

  30. Manor Motorsport. Not read much about them. Turns out they are an F3 team based in Dinnington, South Yorkshire.

    http://manormotorsport.mfbiz.com

    1. Are they also from USA??

      1. I read somewhere that said Manor were from the USA, but Manor Motorsport are a UK team. Still not 100% sure whether Manor are Manor Motorsport of F3/FRenault fame or not :S Much confused.

        1. They most certainly are.

  31. What a joke. Goodbye Max and Bernie. Power hungry and greedy. Teams are tired of the power games

  32. Eddie Irvine
    12th June 2009, 11:32

    Lola, Prodrive and Lightspeed out??? what are they thinking, ok you just keep racing with energy drinks and national teams. Imagine a battle between Force India and USF1, ths is just A1Gp not Formula 1. Very dissapointed
    I hoped that a team like toro Rosso(customer chassis) will be dropped and some old names like Lotus, Lola and Aston Martin wil be in but nooo Max execute the worst case scenario

  33. Prisoner Monkeys
    12th June 2009, 11:45

    Are people just not reading the article? Or are they only reading the bits they want to? I’m thinking t’s the latter, because veryone is missing this part:

    AUTOSPORT understands there are three or four other teams who are close to being granted entries, and dialogue is still ongoing.

    So, if any one of the five teams decide to withdraw – either owing to the budget cap or, as Renault suggested, because of a donturn in sales in their road car division – you can bet those three or four teams will step up to the plate. And it wouldn’t surprise me if the FIA deliberately included Prodrive and Lola in that list. The reason being that they’re larger, established organsiations and they can afford to purchase the remains of an old team. The FIA obviously expect someone to pull the plug on their F1 project, though whether because of the budget cap or for another reason is unclear! (I put that bit in italics so that people don’t put words in my mouth by saying it’s proof that the FIA are morons.)

    1. Nice theory there Prisoner Monkeys.

      1. Prisoner Monkeys
        12th June 2009, 12:05

        All my theories are nice.

        1. They are nice but how many of them have become true??..:)

    2. That could very well be. Perhaps:
      » Lola and Prodrive could team up as they did for their Le Mans LMP1 effort and take over the Renault team in Enstone, while;
      » Superfund take over Scuderia Toro Rosso, run them from Italy for a number of seasons and then take them to Austria.

      Oh, and Epsilon Euskadi might still be in line for cooperation with USF1.

      1. If Lola and Prodrive do team up, their resulting car better be as good looking as the LMP1 monster they have at Le Mans this weekend. Would it be a first to have a blue and orange Gulf F1 car?

        1. I don’t think gulf would work on an F1 car. I saw a rendering of what it could look like the other week and the central stripe made it look tall and slab sided. Good on LeMans cars, not on F1 cars.

          And that is an interesting theory. I reckon even if the regulations are sorted properly we’ll still see a couple of teams leave simply because it won’t be sorted out smoothly or decisively.

  34. @EddieIrvan
    Lotus would just have been a name only not spirit. Likely to have come with litigation. Prodrive/Aston Martin was only a half attempt, with David Richardson wanting all the planets to be aligned before he thinks it worthwhile to participate. As for Lola, I’m sure the FIA remembers the last time the attempted to race in F1 and how it ended.

    As for the provisional entries for 5 of the FOTA teams, lets await FOTA’s response.

    1. I agree with what you have said, although I believe the Lola of today has bene bought out and remade by the new owner in such a fashion that it is essentially a new company from the one that tried the F1 grid some years back.

  35. I’m pleased with the three new entries, USF1 and Campos were the two ones I definitely wanted anyways and the third I wasnt too decided about – and Manor (is it Manor Motorsport that Raikkonen drove for in FRenault or is it someone else?) seems fine to me – they must have been a strong entry to beat the likes of Prodrive.

    Also very pleased that all the current teams are on the list, even if some are only provisional. It gives some hope that comething will be resolved.

    I would have thought Prodrive were at least on the reserve list surely. They were the only other one i thought had a strong chance.

    I seem to be in a minority, having read a couple of other message boards around the place, in being glad that Toro Rosso remain. I know theres the link with Red Bull and all that, but they are ex-Minardi, and have a lot more character to them than some of the other teams.

    As for the iconic names not being included, just because a team carries the name from a famous predecessor does not make them
    a) as good as they once were, and thats if they are even the same company as it was before, which in a few of them is not the case at all
    and b) any better, or stronger in competition than USF1, Campos or Manor will be. Same goes for any big name – who can say that Aston Martin/Prodrive or Lola will be any better than those who did get accepted

    Campos and Manor (I am assuming it is Manor Motorsport)have a good history in motorsport, just not F1 – they are just as deserving as any other team. And USF1 have been vocal about entry for ages, long before many of the potential entries had even mentioned it (well bar Prodrive who have been lurking around F1 for a good while). Good luck to all three new teams. Have already developed a soft spot for the Campos entry, so I’m glad they got included!

    1. (is it Manor Motorsport that Raikkonen drove for in FRenault or is it someone else?)

      I think it was Manor that Raikkonen drove for in his FRenault title year. Lewis Hamilton also drove for Manor in FRenault and his first year of the F3 Euroseries, before switching to ASM the following year.

      Manor getting an entry is a surprise but the involvement of its technical partner isn’t. Wirth Research – whose founder, Nick Wirth, was previously head of Simtek and worked for Benetton in the late 1990s – has done work for Max Mosley and the FIA. This may well have stood them in good stead to get an entry. The rumour I’d heard was that Wirth’s mystery partner was Penske but obviously that was way off.

  36. have read that Mosley was goin to agree to 100m euros for 2010 and 45m for foll yrs…

    waiting to see USF1 bt nt in the rest of ferrari and etc..

  37. keep up guy’s it’s over Ferrari have said they will not be racing next year statement on there web site.The idiot just played his last card now I hope he walk’s from the room.

    1. Ah, the gauntlet has been well and truly thrown now.

      Actually, they didn’t say they won’t race at all–
      “For the avoidance of any doubt, Ferrari reaffirms that it shall not take part in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the regulations adopted by the FIA in violation of Ferrari’s rights under a written agreement with the FIA.”

      Of course, Dearest Maxy will no doubt spin it to look like Ferrari broke the deal with FIA, not the other way round–which still allows him to point to others as the ones “ruining” F1.

      It does certainly cause one to wonder what will happen, as I can see Ferrari standing firm, and I cannot see Ferrari not racing. Really does appear to open the door for a breakaway series now.

      BTW, there are several good tracks that I believe would happily host races for another series. And there are, I believe, enough of them with no ties to Bernie to worry about.

      Silverstone, San Marino, Brands Hatch, Watkins Glen, Montreal, Magny Cours, Long Beach or Sears Point(or both), Imola, Monaco(NOT tied to Bernie and sure to host any race with Ferrari in it), Nurburgring, Monza … just to name a few. Not that I’m hoping for a breakaway series. I’d truly rather see Max out of the picture, and F1 settled into a stable governance situation.

      We will have to wait and see.

  38. No Prodrive, thats taking the ****

  39. Surely teams like Manor and Campos won’t have the money if cost cutting doesn’t go ahead. What a stupid desicion. They should just get rid of BMW, Toyota and Renault if they want to go.

    1. Campos is financed by Carlos Slim who has more money than the Red Bull guy.

      Everyone is annoyed by Prodrive not be in, but one should remember that they burned FIA once already.

      1. No Filipe, It was the other way around. Prodrive said they would enter under the customer car regulations, and the FIA failed to get the rules approved.

  40. Why no prodrive? With the potential of becoming Aston Martin, maybe the FIA feared more future defiance from another manufacturer. Seriously though, they were selected a few years ago, didn’t compete because the FIA failed to clarify the customer chassis rule (which they still haven’t done) and now they haven’t even been selected, even though they were obvious candidates having been previously choosen. The FIA seems determined not to let them in.

    1. I was so exciting about the news Aston could be in F1. This dissicion is gutting. Absolutely stupid.

  41. Ferrari, RBR, and Toro Rosso have all reaffirmed the conditional nature of their entries after the FIA released the list. More here:
    http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=46112&PO=46112

    Why all this is being done in such a public fashion is a mystery to me. The sponsors and commercial rights holders must be really annoyed. Many of them are huge companies which simply don’t have the culture to handle uncertainties of this sort – they must all be rethinking their commitment to the sport. I wonder how much quantifiable damage this long-drawn split has already caused.

  42. It’s clear to see the FIA have gone against the fans again. Everyone wanted Prodrive in F1 and instead we’ve got Manor and Campos to have single engine racing.

  43. So Ferrari have been included because the FIA say they have pre-existing contract with them, is that right? Whreas Ferrari say they are not take part until the FIA agree to Ferrari’s conditions.
    Here’s the Press Release from Ferrari web site

    Maranello, 12th June 2009 – Following publication of the list of entries for the 2010 Formula One World Championship, which includes Ferrari as an unconditional entrant, Ferrari wishes to state the following:

    • Ferrari submitted on 29 May 2009 an entry to the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship which is subject to certain conditions. As of today, these conditions have not been met;

    • notwithstanding this and despite Ferrari’s previous written notice to the FIA not to do so, the FIA has included Ferrari as a unconditional participant in next year’s Formula One World Championship.
    For the avoidance of any doubt, Ferrari reaffirms that it shall not take part in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the regulations adopted by the FIA in violation of Ferrari’s rights under a written agreement with the FIA.

  44. Since Ferrari and Red Bull/Torro Rosso are in, but would prefer to be out, and McLaren etc only want to be in with different rules, and may be thrown out, that still only leaves Williams and Force India as positively guaranteed carrying over from this year into next year. So there is plenty of time yet for the other possible teams to find a place.

  45. I wonder if Prodrive was not included because the FIA (read: Max) is still upset about them pulling out of the 2008 season after being given a grid slot.

    1. Prodrive wanted to compete in 2008, was ready to do so with customer cars from McLaren-Mercedes, but eventually decided against it because the rules allowing for customer cars were not accepted/enforced. Williams and Force India even went to court over Super Aguri and Toro Rosso’s alleged customer cars from Honda and Red Bull respectively. I don’t think M.R. Mosley should have a grudge about that; it was effectively his own fault.

  46. Is it a coincidence that Nick Wirth, former business partner of Max Mosley (they founded Simtek together) is involved in the rather unknown, yet accepted, entry of Manor Grand Prix?

    1. No, probably not.
      When things involve as much money as F1 does, there are very rarely coincidences.

    2. From Wikipedia

      Manor Grand Prix is an auto racing team that will compete in the 2010 Formula One season. They were granted entry on 12 June 2009, as one of three new teams[1][2]. The team is a tie-up between Manor Motorsport and Wirth Research. Manor Motorsport boss John Booth is the team owner and former Simtek team owner Nick Wirth will be the technical director.[3] They will use engines supplied by Cosworth. Manor Motorsport are best known as a Formula Three team, currently running in the Formula Three Euroseries.

      From the entry for Nick Wirth on Wikipedia

      In 2006 Wirth began working for the FIA in the Casumaro windtunnel in Italy on the split rear wing design that the FIA proposed for the 2008 F1 season.

      In 2007 he became involved with the Acura LMP programme in the American Le Mans Series and has since continued working especially with the design of the new LMP1 class car for 2009 season.

      In 2010, Wirth will return to Formula One as technical director with the new Manor Grand Prix team, which has formed a technical partnership with his company Wirth Research.

    3. Interesting observation, but if you’re trying to make a broader point:

      Is it a coincidence that businessmen with contacts and connections get ahead over others even if those others have higher merit?

      Welcome to the real world. Nepotism is bad in government perhaps, but this is all a profit-making enterprise. Par for the course.

      1. Well I was surprised that (in my mind) more likely entries like Prodrive and Lola were not accepted and an F3 team (albeit Euroseries) is accepted.

  47. Brawn GP TBA

    What engine they will use in 2010?

    1. Hopefully non. But likely cosworth

  48. James Allen’s got a snapshot on his website:

    http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/index.htm

  49. I thought that Prodrive was a shoe in? I also thought they were later going to be named Aston Martin, right? What happened? I really wanted an Aston Martin team! Middle fingers up to you FIA!!!

    1. Prisoner Monkeys
      12th June 2009, 15:41

      I suspect they’re on the provisional list. The FIA probably believe that someone is likely to leave even if the budget cap is resolved in a wy everony agrees upon; Renault have allegedly been telling suppliers not to be too surprised if they back out as they’ve suffered a downturn in sales of road cars and ING are ending their involvement with the sport. Larger firms with more money, like Prodrive and Lola, are in a much better position to buy the remains of departing teams than smaller organisations like Manor and Campos. Because they have that money, but they’re still entitled to FOM’s freshman-year support, they don’t run at a loss.

      Put it this way: Bernie wants thirteen teams on the grid. They give entries to Prodrive, Lola and US-F1. But then Renault, Toyota and BMW back out, and none of the other organisations have the funds to purchase their remains. This way, the three places are taken by teams who can’t afford to purchase another’s assets.

      I suspect at least one team has privately gone to the FIA and said “We can’t compete in 2010, not because of the budget cap but because we’re not geting results/our road car division isn’t doing too well/other excuse,” but because they submitted a conditional entry, they want to see this out. Because they are still in the sport, they still have the right to be treated as a member of FOTA, and so are seeing this through to the end, after which time they’ll quietly take their leave.

      See, this is the problem with everyone. They assume everything is political. And while it is political, it isn’t nearly as one-dimensional as people seem to think it is.

      1. Also it puts pressure on the condional entries.

        For example is Max really going to say to McLarren well make your mind up or i will give your place to Manor Grand Prix where as the same question with Pro Drive is slightly less laughable

        1. That sounds very plausible. I must say that’s a really clever move by Max and the FIA.

      2. I highly doubt any team has gone to the FIA and told them they are pulling out due to the performance of their business’s off track side. The only teams that might pull out because their not selling cars are the manufacturers. None of the manufacturers (Ferrari included) have submitted an unconditional application or spoken out in support of FIA’s proposals. You can be certain that if someone privately went to FIA to tell them things were that bad the FIA would never let that information stay private. If Renault, Toyota, etc. had indicated they were pulling out it would either be very public (to embarrass them) or they would be having to publicly support the FIA’s proposal so that FIA would keep it quiet. The FIA would use it to try and penalize that manufacturer for being part of the FOTA teams. But first they would use the threat of releasing that information to force that team to break ranks.

  50. Prodrive is probably the BEST qualified potential new team. Why weren’t they selected? Richards has too much attitude for Mosley (my guess). He has selected new teams with owners who will more than likely toe the FIA party line.

    Richards, to his credit, has never been bashful about expressing right and wrong. And it probably cost him an entry. Dankeshein Max!

    1. Prisoner Monkeys
      12th June 2009, 15:27

      You do realise Mosley wasn’t the only person who picked through the entries … right?

      1. Wasn’t he the one who picked the 3 “winner” from the final 5 prospects though?

        1. Prisoner Monkeys
          13th June 2009, 1:56

          No. The terms “Max Mosley” and “FIA” have been interchangeable of late, but there’s no way one man had all that power. It would be political suicide for the organisation.

  51. Aston Martin isn’t exactly a giant car manufacturer and I very much doubt the have the resources to fund a racing operation on their own. For one they wont be making their own engines.

    1. They probably have more money than “Manor”

      1. yeah nick wirth has such a glorious career in f1. I remember that simtek wasn’t it sponsored by MTV and fail to make the grid on more than one occasion, did it actually finish the season?

  52. Prodrive would probably enter with Cosworth engines or maybe Mercedes,but certainly not Aston Martin engines at this point!

    I should point out that the ‘FIA’ chose five teams for Max to choose from,which may or may not have included Prodrive.Having Prodrive,Lola,Lotus and others ‘waiting in the wings’ gives Max some leverage in the days ahead.

    1. Exactly- having credible outfits with big motorsports names gives Max some weapons to use in order to point at the FOTA club and say “If you don’t show up, we’ll get these guys instead……”

  53. Is it just me or does Prodrive (and hence David Richards) buying out Renault (formerly Bennetton – hmmmm didn’t David Richards work there for a little while?) make some kind of weird sense…??

    1. Maybe.

      In 1997, when Flavio Briatore was fired as Director of the Benetton team, Richards replaced him. However, his tenure only lasted one year, as he could not agree a long term strategy with the team-owning Benetton family.

  54. FOTA have written to the FIA Senate & WMSC asking them to intervene.
    Extracts from their letter can be read here

    If the Senate & WMSC are seriously interested in the future of F1 they will act.
    Max may believe that F1 can exist without manufacturers but there are other motorsports watching what is happening in F1 & where manufacturers are the mainstay. The WMSC has them to consider, too.

    Max may have entered Ferrari, RBR & STR on the assumption that there are binding agreements but, in fact, this is still an attempt to break FOTA by separating them into the 2 groups.

    Funny how someone who such a short while ago was saying “F1 can live without Ferrari” now feels the need to include them at the expense of other teams he was so eager to include, eh? It seems to me he needs them more than he’s willing to admit.

    1. Certainly looks that way. Maybe he’s just trying to prove that he has the ‘whip hand’ over everyone, and to wrong foot Ferrari in particular. It’s just like Max to get into a personal fight with someone. It used to be Ron Dennis, now it’s Luca.

      F1sa is reporting that Dallara will build the Manor cars, incidentally.

      1. Off topic & just out of interest has Hounslow demolished the Bus Garage?
        Or is it someone totally different?

        1. HounslowBusGarage
          12th June 2009, 17:01

          The Bus Garage is alive and well, c’est moi!
          I had to restart the PC and I couldn’t be bothered to type in Bus Garage.
          There, I’ve done it now.

          1. Oh :(
            I was so looking forward to not having to type such a long name. My typing sucks. :)

        2. I was wondering the same thing, haha!

  55. The WMSC will of course argue that Ferrari had a chance to use its technical veto to prevent the 2010 regulations from ever coming into force,but they didn’t use it,and so they will not get much sympathy there I’m afraid.

    1. What will they say to the other FOTA members? People seem to forget this is not all Ferrari. Several other teams are involved too.

  56. They should let the fans choose the entry list.

    I bet not one person on this planet (excluding the team itself) wanted Manor to be chosen over Lola or Prodrive

    1. Quite a few wouldn’t put Ferrari on it either!

      A quote from Max about Ferrar’s veto.

      “We will say first of all it is no longer in place and if they wanted to do a veto – they were in the [FIA] meeting on March 17 and they should have done it there if they didn’t agree. Instead, they just sat there,” said Mosley.

  57. FOTA are also soon coming out with a dossier listing reasons the proposed new regs are bad for the sport. FOTA is acting with remarkable speed and unity for a body that contains so many entities with such a wide range of interests and investments.

    1. It’s a shame that they have to spell it out for us.Wouldn’t it be blindingly obvious?

  58. I don’t think this has been posted yet, so
    FOTA statement:

    Geneva, 12 June 2009. In response to the erroneous statement made today by FIA, the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) wishes to underline that the entries of all its members – excluding the temporarily suspended Force India and Williams – have been submitted to the FIA as conditional entries.

    The entries to the 2010 FIA F1 Championship submitted by BMW-Sauber, BrawnGP, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull Racing, Renault, Toro Rosso and Toyota were based upon conditions that have still yet to be met.

    FOTA will continue to act constructively on resolving differences with the FIA. Regrettably FOTA is being forced to outline in detail our objections to the new arbitrary FIA proposals and we will release details of our concerns in the near future which will constructively explain why the FIA’s proposals are bad for the future of Formula One, the jobs of those employed within the motor-racing industry and especially the millions of loyal fans who are dismayed and confused at the internal bickering within our sport.

    FOTA reaffirms the unity and strength of its members, welcomes the three new F1 entrants announced today and remains committed to work with all the bodies of the Federation Internationale de l’Automobile to resolve our differences.

  59. ACEA wants change to F1 governance

    The European Automobile Manufacturer’s Association (ACEA) has stepped into the row engulfing Formula 1 – and claimed that the current governance of the sport cannot continue.

    Its members are BMW Group, DAF Trucks, Daimler, FIAT Group, Ford of Europe, General Motors Europe, Jaguar Land Rover, MAN Nutzfahrzeuge, Porsche, PSA Peugeot Citroën, Renault, Scania, Toyota Motor Europe, Volkswagen and Volvo.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76093

    1. Yes, they want the FIA changed not F1.
      The ACEA contains manufacturers from other series.

  60. “FOTA … welcomes the three new F1 entrants announced today…”
    Errr, sure! I wonder if the welcoming gift is a 55 million Euro cheque, just in case it is needed next week.
    What are the chances of a solution when none of the parts seems really interested in dialogue? I really, really hope the F1 lives through this without too much damage. Favorite sports are difficult to come by!

  61. Random Chimp
    12th June 2009, 19:05

    All of this speculation is better entertainment than the racing…

    1. HounslowBusGarage
      12th June 2009, 20:50

      I agree!
      A race only last ninety minutes. This could go on for years!

  62. Bigbadderboom
    12th June 2009, 19:14

    Max (FIA) is finding himself fighting on several fronts now, the FIA are going to find it extremely difficult to sort this out to everyones satisfaction without backing down. The language being used by FOTA is suggestive that they maybe resigned to the fact that they my have to be absent from 2010 grid, even if to underline their argument. Please sort this out people………..

  63. Well well well- Nothing surprising here.

    Let the teams spend what they want. Money cannot buy the trophy, but neither will saving 1B pounds….

  64. Isn’t the WMSC the same group that endorsed Max’s tenure after Spankgate? Does FOTA expect guys like Radovan Novak
    to come to their aid when he owes his FIA existence to Max?

    As previously noted the best news out of all this is the ACEA jumping in on FOTA’s side.

    1. Yes, the same WMSC.
      But there’s a big difference between not taking action over what someone does in their private life & what they do in their position (sorry no inuendo intended) at work.
      This time it’s about the future of not only F1 but other series of motorsport, too.
      In fact, from the ACEA statement they are taking it as far as “motorists” in general.

  65. Exciting isn’t it…

  66. Salut Gilles
    12th June 2009, 20:32

    The best thing about this whole discussion is watching how upset TommyB is that Prodrive was not on the list.

    Other than that, this 2010 business is all very painful and frustrating.

    1. That’s a bit harsh. No need to pick on people

      1. Salut Gilles
        14th June 2009, 16:59

        Sorry. It’s just that, instead of dissapointment, you expressed outrage at the choice. Though there is nothing wrong with that, it still came off as funny.

  67. Someone needs to sort this out once and for all – where are the drivers? Where is the GPDA opinion on all of this? It’s all very well siding with FOTA in Turkey – but where is there stance on all of this? Come on Alonso, Hamilton, Raikonnen, Webber – where is your opinion?

    Our Driving Heroes need to show us, the fans that they have the best interests of the sport at heart. They should demand the changes and bring the teams and FIA together.

    The fans want action, they want proper governance, new teams and brilliant racing. The FIA are absolutely not acting with these intentions and the sooner Max Mosely is removed from office the better.

    1. Alonso, Massa, Hamilton and Vettel already gave their opinion.

      Alonso and Massa gave some lame speech with phoney sentiments about how the new rules are bad. Hamilton and Vettel stated that they simply want to race.

      1. Don’t forget that the superstars are exposed to having their salaries cut ten-fold if the harder version of the budget cap ever comes into force. One doesn’t say something that costs the last 0 of your salary.

        1. Under the FIA’s current budget cap rules driver salaries are exempt so in theory at least the drivers won’t see their salaries cut.

    2. HounslowBusGarage
      12th June 2009, 20:57

      If the drivers have any sense, they will keep their mouths corporately shut. They are under contracted to the Teams – FOTA or FOTA suspended. Their function is to be faithfully contractees of their teams and to keep out of the wranglings.
      Apart from that, there’s nothing they could usefully add to the argument.This is not an argument about safety or speed. What could the drivers do – refuse to drive? There would be half a million applicants for their jobs in hours. They have no leverage.

      1. and of course, Hill and Fangio would have kept quiet….

        1. Not to mention James Hunt ;)

    3. The GPDA have spoken & backed FOTA
      Trulli seems to have been acting as spokesman.

      1. Hamish below has captured everything I was trying to say….

  68. I’m sorry I’m not a huge supporter of blogs but I have to let my views be known as this has got beyond ridiculous. Someone get me on a plane to Paris as the solution is quiet obvious. F1 is tarnished and in all honesty I blame it on one person, Max Mosley.

    What is this whole situation about, the better for the sport or Max Mosley not willing to concede defeat and admit he had got it wrong? The sport is borderline f*cked compared to what it used to be, and a lot of this is due to Mosleys ego distorting the vision of what is for the better of the sport. With no disrespect to Mosley Jr I sometimes wish Max would go down his track and put a bit too much of something up his nose, and disappear.

    I’m 99% through writing a report that I do want to submit on the net in regards to the sport as a whole, and what can be done to improve it. We have heard these views before from commentators, drivers, team priciples, but one group has never voiced its opinion – the fans. I cover many aspects in this report as a whole a time, research and effort has gone into it, they include:

    – CVC taking just under a quarter of all profits out of the sport just to satisfy an interest obligation. Did you know $4.8million is leaving the sport each week just to satisfy CVC’s interest obligations in regards to their loan. $4.8million that doesn’t contribute to the improvment in the sport in any way, shape or form.
    – The loss of “traditional” grand prix, and grand prix fundamental to the sport and its growth (notably America). If I had a say I’d have more than 1 GP in America, and not at Indy.
    – What can be learnt from nascar. They take a very mediocre sport of motor racing and deliver it in a package that is appealing, and therefore successful. Camera angles, drivers with personalities that we can actually connect to and show their true emotion and reaction – something a common man could relate to.
    – The fact that it is just a European Gentleman’s Club. Yes, started and predominately raced in and around Europe but if they want it to become truly a worldwide sport it must appeal to the world, which currently it doesn’t. Polands recent spike in popularity shows what can happen when a country which previously had next to nothing to do with the sport gets involved.
    – Tracks that are appealing. I am sick of GPs occurring in camel paddocks and expo 2010 advertising grounds. The tracks compared to the past are flat, and lacklustre. Yes, theres an importance in safety but it should be man, machine against nature, not a man made complex on flat land in the middle of no where. A bit of elevation wouldn’t hurt. Racing through a forest also contributes to F1s awareness of the environment. I go into detail in my report but why someone doesn’t plant trees, or buy a forest and build a track in it is beyond me. My calculation (with supporting evidence) shows that its easily possible for these trees to absorb all Co2 emitted, therefore making a GP carbon neutral. This would open doors up to various new sponsors and individuals entering F1 (Branson to name one). Given this, it could attract new fans given the emphasis on global warming etc currently.
    – F1 going worldwide. This can only be achieved by making the package appealing worldwide. New GPs are great but I don’t care about races in Bahrain and South Korea. Go where the people are and where the potential fan base is and the money will likely follow, not the other way around (which is failing). To get people to show genuine interest you must take it to the people
    – Politics within F1 and governance. Way too many egos. For the sake of the sport respect, understanding and respect in essential. The image the sport is portraying at the moment is embarrassing and some can be mistaken for forgetting that somewhere in the middle of this cars actually race. Is it a sport or something in line with the World Wrestling Federation?
    – New entrants. Some form of restriction on spending ($100m) and technical advancement so that new entrants will enter knowing they have the chance of being at least semi competitive. There is too much emphasis on aerodynamics (as illustrated by the hideous look of some cars) which may add performance, but do nothing for the spectacle.

    These are all just off the top of my head, but I do go into greater detail in the report as it is of a decent length. Let me know your thoughts, and if you do have any ideas please let me know. The whole point of this is to put forward our point of view, something that is hyet to be heard. Given we are fundamental to the sports existance, I think something like this is justified.

    Hamish

    1. Great initiative, Hamish. Count me in. Also, please, somebody tell Max, Bernie, Flavio… that while the casual fan might not care about the technology, the solid fan base does. I would probably not watch without the technology part. And it is hardcore fans who create casual ones… the solid fans of tomorrow.
      For me knowing that the Red Bulls have a different suspension, with ultralow lying pieces, and that those same pieces don’t leave a lot of space for a large double diffuser: that is the kind of thing that get’s me hooked.

      1. The trouble with different suspension etc is that only about 1% of us actually give a toss.And if that suspension system costs $10,000,000 then so much the worse.

        F1 teams can no longer justify their 3 Billion a year budgets,and lets not forget exactly whose money it is that they’re spending!

    2. There have been fan surveys before, Hamish, but those by the FIA tended to have multiple choice with none of the choices most fans wanted ;)
      FOTA had its’ own survey which included real afficianados through to people who don’t even watch F1.
      They used the findings from that survey to help come up with the suggestions they sent to the FIA back in March.
      In case you hadn’t seen them (or had forgotten) I’ve linked to the FOTA press release here

    3. That’s an absolutley fantastic rant Hamish- I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said there. My only suggestion would be to leave out the part about Max’s son- it’s a poor sounding remark that dosen’t compare to the quality of the rest of your writings.

      As an American, I very much agree with having a quality Grand Prix- and maybe even more than one GP- here in the USA, in addition to Montreal being back. Along with that, France should obviously return, and the futures of races under threat- Silverstone and Melbourne- should be secured.

      It’s good to see F1 expand into Asia and the Middle East in many ways. If you look at India, there’s a big country that I believe can catch onto F1 quickly. But those new ventures should not come at the expense of the established markets where F1 is very successful and well-known.

    4. I agree with your argument.

      However, referring to your point about making F1 carbon neutral, I thought this was already the case. When Honda launched it’s Earth Dream car idea in 2007, one of the reports I remember reading was that Mosley had the FIA invest in carbon offsetting schemes to make F1 Carbon neutral since the late 1990s.

  69. The drivers are employed by the teams, so anywhere the team goes the driver will most likely follow as they have said.

    1. They aren’t likely to say: “I’m with Max on this one,F1 will still be F1 even if I have to cancel the order on my new Yacht”.

  70. Maurice Henry
    12th June 2009, 23:52

    Hamish, I can’t wait to read your article. Thought I’d post these figures I gleaned from Sports Pro magazine March 2009 issue. The mag covers sports business and the editor in chief is the infamous, to some, Tom Rubython.

    This issue had a huge section on F1 2008. I will try and get this scanned and available to you all as soon as I can.

    Melbourne – Although it loses money every year consider this. They have to move 45,000 tonnes of equipment into the park, set it up and then remove it following the GP. They must repair any and all damage. This alone costs US$30 million. If the circuit was permanent it would probably be one of the few races that made a profit. It would have cost an additional US$45 million to light the whole track for a night race according to race promoter, Ron Walker

    Barcelona pays FOM a franchise fee of US$20million which id described as “…well below the international average”

    Istanbul Park – Management rights to the circuit came into Ecclestone’s pocket in 2007 via an Israeli venture capital firm. The management rights to the circuit, and the race, are belived to have been sold by The Union of Chambers and Commodities Exchanges of Turkey (TOBB) to Ecclestone for around US$180 million in April 2007. Terms of the deal are thought to include a US$3 million payment to TOBB by IPO, Ecclestone’s holding company for the event. IPO has run at significant losses since its inception. The circuit has a long contract with FOM, unsurprisingly, to run a GP up until 2021.

    Canada – Initially Ecclestone was demanding US$26 million for 2009 increasing by 5% in each subsequent year of the contract. The final straw came when Ecclestone demanded a govt or bank guarantee of US$143 million over the course of a five year deal.

    France Magny Cours – Franchise fee was US$12 million per year. In 2008 the French motorsport authority the FFSA spent a further US$8 million promoting the 2008 event.

    Hungary – Franchise fee US$13 million with the govt. supporting the enterprise to the tune of US$8 million. New deal in 2007 believed to involved a reduction of US$2 million per year in the Hungarian govt.’s investment

    Valencia – Franchise fee US$40 million per year. Upgrade work funded by the govt. to build the facility around US$100 million. Note mooring fees were on a two tier system with prices ranging from US$4000 to US$12000 with no view of the circuit

    Spa – (1)”The ownership and promotion of the Belgian Grand Prix remains something of a mystery.” (2)”…the FOM contract…which is believed to be putting a major financial burden on the regional govt. As it stands, no-one is sure if the Walloon govt, Bernie Ecclestone, or a hitherto unknown backer is in charge” (3)Several paragraphs before point (2) was this little gem, “The 2006 race was cancelled by the RAC of Belgium in order for the extensive renovation work to be undertaken on the pit and paddock facilities, and modificationsto be made to the Bis Stop chicane and La Source hairpins. Although the US$50 million building work was carried out from November 2006 to May 2007, amd two races have since been held at the circuit, the identity of Spa’s benefactor remains shrouded in mystery.” (4) The previous promotor Didier Defourney’s company DDF1 went bust with debts of around US$12 million which the regional govt of Walloonia took on when they reprieved the race in 2007. DDF1’s bankruptcy was prompted after 2005’s disasterous overall attendence figure of 50,000 spectators!

    Monza – The franchise fee paid to FOM is only US$3 million a year which is “…widely acknowledged as the smallest fee on the calendar” Interestingly, in 2005 the only 93,000 attended the event due to Ferrari’s lack of form

    Singapore – One man money machine and long time friend of Bernie, Ong Beng Seng, is responsible for a whopping 40% of the US$150 million cost of staging the race (this includes US$20 million a year for direct track preparation and lighting installation). The Singapore Tourist board meets the other 60% of the costs. “During negociations in May 2007 it is believed that Ong guaranteed Ecclestone franchise fees of some US$40 million a year, the going rate for a new Formula One race.”

    Abu Dhabi – Franchise fee thought to be over US$50 million per year over the contract period.

    Donnington’s venture has a major mystery investor, whose identity has yet to be revealed. What’s the betting the investor is short, with white hair and may have helped save Spa in the recent past…?

    Max saying the teams can’t sustain this level of funding is ignoring the other significant elephant in the room. The circuit promoters can’t afford this either unless they have significant govt money behind them or “a mystery investor” who spends money to save some tracks and not others.

    1. Maurice, this is great info- thanks very much for the update.

      Sadly, the issue of fees payed by circuits to FOM to host a GP is a long-running problem that has forced out countless venues over the years. Go back to the Long Beach days, when Chris Pook told Bernie he’d give up the F1 contract and bring in an IndyCar race if the price kept going up. Bernie just laughed it off…..and today Long Beach remains a fixture on the IndyCar series schedule.

  71. one question i like answered. If the FOTA teams leave, where does this leave f1. We might have 10 no names teams on the grid, but will the new teams be able to compete. yes we will have 10 teams with cosworth engines. (unrealiable and under powered i might ad) but can they build an f1 car. Williams wont have a toyota engine or gear box. Toyota dont have to supply them with anything, if toyota are not in f1. So do you seriously expect these f1 teams to develop a gear box and a car up to f1 saftey standards, which will be competetive. The only person this benifits is Force India and Williams. They have all the technological know how, all the other cars will be lapping 3 sec off the pace. Wind tunnells, racing jigs, high tec computers are not developed over night, this is what current teams have. Current teams have systems in place to design cars, people who interpret regs. This will bring f1 back to the stoneage and make it a spec series. FOTA start your own championship, i know i would rather watch the FOTA teams race within 1/2 a second of each other with alonso, vettell, hamilton, etc etc then f1 with one engine spec series and drivers i dont recongnise. F1 will become a place where second rate drivers race.

    Max is not only ruining the sport he is ruining the history and what f1 stands for.

  72. Thanks for all your comments guys – I’ve read them all and although I haven’t got time to reply to all of them they helped my thinking when I was writing up my reaction to the story, which is here:

    FIA and FOTA remain deadlocked on F1 governance and budget cap

  73. I can’t help but think there have been a few large brown envelopes full of gren stuff being handed around among a couple of the newcomersto members of a certain regulatory body.

    Though as far as Manor Racing is concerned maybe i should be backing them. Apparently they are based in Dinnington, which is not too far from Scunthorpe, which is where i grew up. I now live in Phoenix arizona.

  74. I just don’t get it. People are ALWAYS complaining about how F1 is not about drivers anymore, it’s all about the car and la la la. Now they want to cut costs and make it possible for smaller teams to level up with bigger teams and have like 26 drivers battling like crazy and all I hear is “boo-hoo, the red car won’t be there next year, i won’t watch it anymore”. Give me a break. “Oh, these guys shouldn’t go into F1 because these other guys have more money than they do”. What the hell? I want to see Eddie Jordans and Peter Saubers out there, making the best with little money and a lot of passion, intelligence and picking fast drivers, I want to see Johnny Herberts winning on a Stewart, unknown Alonsos giving driving lessons on a rainy day with an Arrows/Minardi. Who the hell cares about Ferrari/McLaren? All teams go up and down, F1 doesn’t need to hold back just because a couple of idiots want to keep winning just cause they are richer than the rest. Then regulations change and all their money is wasted, because you get a Brawn move that kicks everyone’s ass with little money. That’s what they’re trying to avoid.

    1. I’n sorry to rain on your epiphany FLIG but Brawn hardly made a ” move that kicks everyone’s ass with little money”. We all know that the mastermind that is Ross Brawn simply bought a package off Honda, that he had been working on himself, at a bargain price and manufactured himself and Jenson a championship. If Brawn was forced to start from scratch and had to compete under this seasons regulations they would more like Force India or maybe Toro Rosso.
      You could even go so far as to say that Ross Brawn had a hand in Honda’s demise!? As for your claim that F1 fans don’t care about Ferrari etc……all I have for you is WOW!

  75. If there is a breakaway series in 2010…its almost impossible for the 8 fota members to create one…..
    1.Ferrari has a contract that they will compete till 2011 with Formula One
    2.Renault has a high chance of being out of f1-”fota”gp nxt year due to slump of sales.
    3.A short period of time to hire tracks,staffs,sponsors,popularity,commercial rights(which might take more than a year)etc…Estimated Costs:Nearly a billion….Does FOTA has that?
    4.Can FOTA would be able to stay united if they started a breakaway series where they made the rules themselves?
    5.FIA to take the 8 teams to court due to the Concorde Agreement..
    From my view of point it to me already looks like Mosley have and might indeed have done battle with FOTA.well things are looking up now for FOTA but the end for Max Mosley.

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