What has Max Mosley ever done for us?

Romans: Big on aqueducts and roads, but not budget caps

Romans: Big on aqueducts and roads, but not budget caps

All right, all right! But, apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order… what have the Romans done for us?

Like the Romans in Monty Python’s “The Life of Brian”, Max Mosley gets a fair bit of stick from F1 fans. Particularly at the moment, as he appears to have embarked on a last-gasp bid to wreck the deal that could save Formula 1.

But let’s stop, take stock of his 18 years in the job as FIA president and ask, what has he done for us? What has he got right?

Safety

Putting all the whys and wherefores to one side, there is one point about Mosley’s governance of Formula 1 that is a cast-iron certainty: he has made the sport safer.

In recent years we have seen drivers like Robert Kubica (Montreal, 2007) and Alexander Wurz (Paul Ricard testing, 2005) survive monumental accidents with barely a scratch. One shudders to think what would have happened to a driver of the eighties who, like Wurz, might have had the misfortune to strike a wall at 300kph (187mph).

Undoubtedly, much of this came as a reaction to the horrors of 1994, when we lost Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzenberger in one weekend, and other drivers such as Karl Wendlinger and Pedro Lamy suffered huge crashes which exceeded the limits of what the cars and circuits could safely contain.

If Mosley’s zeal for ramming through unpopular regulations against the teams’ wishes has ever served the sport well, it did in 1994, when he forced quick changes to the cars to cut speeds and improve safety.

Quality of competition

Max Mosley was elected to the FIA presidency in 1991. That year began with 34 cars from 18 teams on the grid.

Today we have ten teams and 20 cars And, if Mosley succeeds in alienating the eight FOTA teams from next year’s championship, only five teams are currently slated to appear

The quantity of teams has clearly declined. But the quality of those entries has improved: last year nine of the ten teams scored a podium finish, in 1991 it was six. There were five different winners in 2008, three in 1991.

Significantly, this ‘quality over quantity’ scenario was Mosley’s goal from the outset. To this end, new teams had to lodge a $48m bond with the FIA merely to enter the championship, and only the top ten teams in a championship were entitled to receive travel money from FOM.

However the other consequence of this has been F1 bringing meagre grids to races for around a decade and a half. For a long time Mosley has shown no interest in fixing this.

Now that he has done, we could potentially see up to 13 teams in F1 next year. Ironically, that scenario now seems to be contingent upon Mosley stepping aside.

Calendar

Although it is Bernie Ecclestone’s responsibility to sign deals with race promoters, it is down to the FIA to sign off the calendar. Here is it how it has changed since 1991:

Lost

Phoenix, United States
San Marino, Italy
Montreal, Canada
Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, Mexico City
Silverstone, Great Britain*
Estoril, Portugal
Adelaide, Australia
Magny-Cours, France

Added and lost

Kyalami, South Africa
TI Aida, Japan
Buenos Aires, Argentina
A1 Ring, Austria
Indianapolis, United States

Added

Donington Park, Great Britain*
Nurburgring (new), Germany
Melbourne, Australia
Sepang, Malaysia
Shanghai, China
Sakhir, Bahrain
Istanbul, Turkey
Valencia Street Circuit, Spain
Marina Bay, Singapore
Fuji, Japan
Yas Island, Abu Dhabi

*Presuming Donington Park does take Silverstone’s place on the 2009 calendar.

The over-riding concern has been to take F1 to new countries, particularly those of key interested to car manufacturers, such as China.

But this has been pursued at the loss of too many important venues for F1. By dropping France off the calendar, it has severed its links with the country that gave the world Grand Prix racing. Mosley has allowed North America to fall off the calendar entirely.

In their place have come a series of events in places with little interest in Formula 1, correspondingly meagre crowds, and underwhelming cookie-cutter tracks. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a big fat fail for Mosley on this count.

Financial health of F1

In 2000 Mosley authorised the sale of F1’s commercial rights to Bernie Ecclestone for 100 years for $309m. Even by his standards Ecclestone got an incredible deal – thanks partly to Mosley’s apparent desire to conclude a deal before anyone else got an offer in.

That included the European Automobile Manufacturer?s Association (ACEA – which is now backing FOTA’s protests against the FIA), whose representative Paolo Cantarella met with Mosley to discuss a potential offer. Mosley later wrote to Cantarella explaining that his association had one week to deliver a bid for a contract which Ecclestone and various FIA representatives had been working on for eight months.

Having got his knock-down deal, six years later Ecclestone sold control of F1 to CVC Capital Partners. The exact total paid is not known, but the sum is believed to be well in excess of $1.7bn, and was funded by CVC securing a loan against its future profits of $2.9bn.

This has left Formula 1 in a situation where its participants foot huge bills to compete and see the majority of the revenues generated by their activities handed not to themselves, nor re-invested into the sport, but to a private equity firm principally concerned with squeezing the sport for every penny it’s got.

On top of that several teams are yet to receive what monies they are entitled to from previous seasons, adding to their objections.

This is where the roots of the bitter row afflicting F1 today lie. And it started with a deal done by Mosley.

Your verdict

The question of safety is arguably the single most important thing Mosley has had to do in his F1 car. And his response was, largely, correct and good for the sport. However we must always remember it was in reaction to a crisis, rather than pre-emptively avoiding one.

Safety aside, how many other concrete examples are there of how Mosley has improved F1?

A better-quality grid has been achieved at the expense of decent entry numbers. The championship visits some new countries having sacrificed others, and is seen by fewer fans. The roster of circuits is becoming ever more uniform.

The unequal distribution of F1’s revenues has gotten worse, not better. And it has spawned the very crisis which Mosley now presumes to tell us he should remain in power to fix.

I’m not convinced. In 18 years, Mosley has not done nearly enough for us, the F1 fans.

What good do you think Mosley has done for F1? Share your verdict on his FIA presidency below.

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150 comments on What has Max Mosley ever done for us?

  1. PJA said on 29th June 2009, 10:44

    The only thing you could say Mosley has done for F1 is the increased safety, but as others have pointed it could well be argued that anyone else in charge at the time of Senna’s death would have been under pressure to do the same, as although big names had died before in F1 peoples attitudes had changed by 1994.

    Jackie Stewart did a lot more for safety in F1 and at a time when the attitude was if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. With everything Stewart has achieved Mosley still decides to call him a certified half-wit, and having also recently called FOTA a bunch of loonies he then makes a big fuss when di Montezemolo allegedly called him a dictator.

    Selling the commercial rights to F1 for 100 years for only $309m can at best be described as incompetence, what other major sport sells it’s rights for as long a period as 100 years, and at a price that works out at $3m a year before inflation reduces it?
    I wouldn’t have been surprised that someone who was trying to get the best price could have got $300m for just a 10 year lease.

  2. Daffid said on 29th June 2009, 11:21

    I don’t accept that Mosley has improved safety. Safety has been improving in all sports for the last 3 decades, and Max’s arch enemy Sir Jackie was campaigning for improved safety before Max took office. Safety would have improved under ANY incumbent. Perhaps it’s refreshing to have someone out-spoken in a world of punishments for ‘bringing the game into disrepute’ but I really think he’s losing his marbles. His verbal assaults of Jackie, Ron and now Flavio are shameful. Time to go!

  3. Rabi said on 29th June 2009, 11:54

    Only thing Max has done is destroy F1.

    The safety thing is rubbish it was HIM who ordered the removal of all the technology from the cars and didn’t do enough when it was blatantly obvious when they were dangerous during pre-season. His reaction was a joke the horses already bolted from the stable that he didn’t close.

    Also anyone notice how crap F1 has become since he signed things over to Bernie? We’ve lost all the old prestigious tracks and replaced them with Tilkedromes. The best example of this above any other track is the Hockenheimring. That track has been butchered and destroyed by all three of the culprits that are bringing F1 to destruction Max, Bernie and Herman.

    Above all the fact that so many fans are hoping for a FOTA breakaway really sums up what everyone thinks about the three clowns.

    • F1fan said on 29th June 2009, 15:35

      Thanks for mentioning Hockenheim, as of last week, it should be part of the ‘lost’-list.

      And you’re right: the changes on this track killed it already

  4. VXR said on 29th June 2009, 13:27

    We might have got a more balanced set of opinions if people actually knew how certain organisations worked.For example,many people think (and it should be said are continuously allowed to think) that Max Mosley dreams up some stuff and then the teams have to do whatever he says.Well that’s just B******s! The FIA doesn’t work like that at all.But if I were to point the finger at the one organisation that has had a lot of influence on the regulations over the past few years I would be branded as biased,and against all that F1 stood for.

    We should never underestimate a dictator in the same way that we should never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

    • just me said on 29th June 2009, 17:23

      I am in the large group who supports the views of those who actually build the cars and nurture the drivers (i.e. FOTA). I think that power hungry lawyers/politicians and $-hungry profiteers make decisions primarily to server their own interests. If it also can be sold as “helping the sport” its a plus, but not a primary motivation.

      @ vxr:

      So which large group do you belong to?

      • VXR said on 29th June 2009, 18:24

        So which large group do you belong to?

        “There is no strength in numbers,have no such misconception.”

        A good line from a good song.Proved to be true time and time again.

        • Maksutov said on 29th June 2009, 19:52

          “There is no strength in numbers,have no such misconception.”

          A good line from a good song.Proved to be true time and time again.

          So is “two heads are better than one” told by famous intelligent philosophers, which has proven to be true time and time again.

    • just me said on 29th June 2009, 17:57

      One more thing @vxr:

      … many people think … that Max Mosley dreams up some stuff and then the teams have to do whatever he says.Well that’s just B******s!

      Most people I know think that Bernie & Max dream up some stuff and then the teams have to do whatever they say.

      Recent example: Gold medal system!

      FYI: It was three men, and three men only, in a room for some 2 hours who settled the recent row (at least for a couple of days): Bernie, Max and Lucas. I didn’t see the rest of the 100-plus FIA “decision-making” members there!

      That’s how FIA, FOM/CVS and FOTA works!!

      • VXR said on 29th June 2009, 18:18

        FYI: It was three men, and three men only, in a room for some 2 hours who settled the recent row (at least for a couple of days): Bernie, Max and Lucas. I didn’t see the rest of the 100-plus FIA “decision-making” members there!

        The WMSC had already voted for the original 2010 ‘budget cap’ regulations by a majority of 24 to 2! Why do they need to be there? They had already voted for what they wanted!

        Recent example: Gold medal system!

        Totally Bernie’s idea.He should stick to what he does best.

        • VXR said on 29th June 2009, 18:29

          I didn’t see the rest of the 100-plus FIA “decision-making” members there!

          I didn’t see any other FOTA members there either.Maybe there’s something that Luca needs to do without them eh ?

        • just me said on 29th June 2009, 20:24

          The point here is that Max has absolute power within FIA. Whatever he (often following pressure/suggestions from his long-term buddy Bernie) says gets ratified by the FIA senate and goes into the rules. This is what Lucas was referring to by using the term ‘dictator’.

          Sure, FOTA appears also dominated by Lucas (he is the spokesman after all). However, we know very little about the decision making process inside FOTA. In contrast we do have ample evidence about hte decision making process inside FIA: Max decides, FIA senate ratifies later. I can’t recall a Max decision that wasn’t ratified later. Do you??

          I can’t imagine that Max called up all the FIA representatives of the 130 member nations and asked for permission to send letters to Lucas to tell him the deal is off if he doesn’t bow and apologise. It’s his own personal decision. Kin to the misbehaviour of a 5-yr old throwing tamper tantrums asking for more spanking ;-)

          • VXR said on 30th June 2009, 1:30

            Whatever he (often following pressure/suggestions from his long-term buddy Bernie) says gets ratified by the FIA senate and goes into the rules.

            Completely untrue.The WMSC vote either for or against any rules that they have discussed among themselves.For example it is widely believed that Mosley came up with the ’40 million’ figure all on his lonesome.FACT is that Tony Purnell was asked by the FIA to come up with a figure that would enable an F1 team to adequately run two cars for one season.There were other ‘ideas’ that were,shall we say,not so radical but these were thought not to address the ‘current’ problem.

          • Dougie said on 30th June 2009, 11:44

            This is what Lucas was referring to by using the term ‘dictator’.

            I’m sorry but if you can’t even get the high profile figures names right, how can we possibly take you seriously!?!

            It’s Luca

            Luca di Montezemolo

          • just me said on 2nd July 2009, 18:32

            @ vxr:
            I see your points: the ‘Max-bashing’ is a very popular recreational activity these days – always nice to have a single high profile target to put all the blame on. I usually go with minority views on most things (F1 or not), but the impression I get about the power structures behind our beloved flagship motorsport F1 from just watching the F1-media makes me very disgusted.

            True, some people know more about what’s going on behind the scenes than I do (e.g. your list of “FACTS”), but all my instincts tell me that Max is doing more harm to this particular sport than good.

            Nobody can know what’s going to happen in a ‘Post-Max’ area, but my feel is that not much is going to change. The power structures are deeply entrenched in the sport and can only be changed to something kin to ‘revolution’.

            At times, when a status quo becomes so unbearable, one has to take risks and sacrifices to attempt a change. Nobody can guarantee that things will work out. Yet, I think that if the FIA-FOTA-Fan-Sponsors relationships get further more out of balance, that a ‘fresh start’ is worth the hardships, sacrifices and risk of failure.

            Thats simply my feel/guess/opinion. No ‘rational’ debate can really debunk those feelings on each of our disparate viewpoints.

            We’ll see how things are going to play out. The Max-debacle seems settled for now, but maybe the fat lady hasn’t sung yet.

            @ Dougie:
            Sorry about my consistent misspelling of Lucas (or Luca’s) name. I am notoriously (acutally pathologically) bad in memorising (and pronouncing) names correctly. Thanks for catching my mistakes. I won’t make this one again (but there are infinitely many more left to make ;-) )

    • Maksutov said on 29th June 2009, 20:17

      many people think (and it should be said are continuously allowed to think) that Max Mosley dreams up some stuff and then the teams have to do whatever he says.

      What, are people now not “allowed” to think? And besides that, nobody is actually making these things up. These are FACTS. .Mosley is indeed dreaming and spitting out whatever he wants. Haven’t you been following the news!?

      The FIA doesn’t work like that at all.

      How does it work then? Do you think the current FIA institute is a competent and professional organization? An organization that deals with decisions in an orderly and professional and sensible and stable manner? A manner that a governing body is supposed provide? Well I am sorry, but that is exactly what the FIA are not doing.

      I do not understand your constant defense based on all the evidence that is available regarding what Mosley has done and is doing.

      You are describing everything that everybody wants the FIA to be, but its currently not.

      • VXR said on 30th June 2009, 1:12

        These are FACTS.

        Mosley:

        I don’t have the power to dictate. I only have the power to execute the decisions that the WMSC have taken.”

        This is FACT and no one who knows how the FIA works could possibly say otherwise.

        I do not understand your constant defense based on all the evidence that is available regarding what Mosley has done and is doing.

        FACT.

        Mosley wanted to save everyone a bundle of cash,and make it possible for other teams to join the championship.

        Here’s another FACT.

        We here that Mosley has made the teams waste money on KERS,and yet at least six teams wasted vast amounts more money because they failed to interpret ‘their’ own diffuser rule correctly!

        Another FACT is that if BMW had voted along with everyone else to kick KERS out they wouldn’t be wasting money on KERS in the first place.

        What no one seems to be able to understand is that the teams (particularly one team) have the mechanisms available to them to veto anything that they want.

        If for example the regulations say that for next season that they have to have a ‘teddy’ fixed to the nose cone of the cars then the teams can unanimously agree not to do that.But you’ll always get one team that thinks it can somehow gain an advantage by having a ‘teddy’ on the nose cone of its car!

        • scunnyman said on 30th June 2009, 4:11

          Right VXR here is FACT.

          The FIA did not come up with the figure 0f 40mil it was originally 30mil, then Bernie got involved and added another 10mil to the coffers ok

          • VXR said on 1st July 2009, 0:57

            The FIA did not come up with the figure 0f 40mil it was originally 30mil, then Bernie got involved and added another 10mil to the coffers ok

            Yes that’s right 30mil it was originally for a budget to design,build and develop two F1 cars during one season.Surely a challenge worthy of only the best engineers.Oh well,at least the company that makes the £800 wheel nuts will have breathed a sigh of relief.

        • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 8:27

          Mosley:

          I don’t have the power to dictate. I only have the power to execute the decisions that the WMSC have taken.”

          Do you think i trust Mosley’s word and I am going to take whatever he says for granted? No. I am deriving my conclusions based on the REALITY of what is actually happening. Mosley is nothing but a conniving man who has proven time and time over to lie and manipulate. And yes he is a dictator.

          FACT.

          Mosley wanted to save everyone a bundle of cash,and make it possible for other teams to join the championship.

          So now you are contradicting yourself. NOW you are saying that it is in fact “Mosley” who wanted to make these changes. Which is in fact correct and there lies the problem. Some of his ideas were wrong, teams did not agree with them. He insisted, they disagreed, he wouldn’t let go his dictatorship. And there was the problem. And you talk about this right to veto, but it actually wasn’t there towards the end. As a result the teams had no choice but to do what they did.

          What no one seems to be able to understand is that the teams (particularly one team) have the mechanisms available to them to veto anything that they want.

          But that wasn’t the case. In fact Mosley wouldn’t listen to anything the teams were requesting. And that is exactly why we have reached this awful problem in F1. Because Mosley wouldn’t listen to requests of the Teams. And that is called dictatorship. Had the FIA or Mosley considered the requests of teams they would have solved this problem months ago. I dont know what else to tell you, because that is what has been happening. And if you can not see that, then I dont know..

          • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 8:36

            ok my bquote is all inverted again.

            VXR:
            —————————————
            Mosley:

            I don’t have the power to dictate. I only have the power to execute the decisions that the WMSC have taken.”
            ————————————–

            Maksutov:
            Do you think i trust Mosley’s word and I am going to take whatever he says for granted? No. I am deriving my conclusions based on the REALITY of what is actually happening. Mosley is nothing but a conniving man who has proven time and time over to lie and manipulate. And yes he is a dictator.

            VXR:
            —————————————
            FACT.

            Mosley wanted to save everyone a bundle of cash,and make it possible for other teams to join the championship.
            —————————————

            Maksutov:
            So now you are contradicting yourself. NOW you are saying that it is in fact “Mosley” who wanted to make these changes. Which is in fact correct and there lies the problem. Some of his ideas were wrong, teams did not agree with them. He insisted, they disagreed, he wouldn’t let go his dictatorship. And there was the problem. And you talk about this right to veto, but it actually wasn’t there towards the end. As a result the teams had no choice but to do what they did.

            VXR:
            ————————————–
            What no one seems to be able to understand is that the teams (particularly one team) have the mechanisms available to them to veto anything that they want.
            ————————————-

            Maksutov:
            But that wasn’t the case. In fact Mosley wouldn’t listen to anything the teams were requesting. And that is exactly why we have reached this awful problem in F1. Because Mosley wouldn’t listen to requests of the Teams. And that is called dictatorship. Had the FIA or Mosley considered the requests of teams they would have solved this problem months ago. I dont know what else to tell you, because that is what has been happening. And if you can not see that, then I dont know..

      • VXR said on 30th June 2009, 1:56

        How does it work then?

        Here you go! Articles 1 to 31.Knock yourself out! LOL

        http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/statutes/Pages/Article1.aspx

        • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 9:06

          VXR,
          Wow honestly, I really think you dont see what is happening in F1. You seem a little bit new to it mentally, and if you dont see it im sorry but you are a little bit narrow minded. If FIA have followed the book of rules in the first place, none of these problems would have occurred. That is pretty simple.

          The problem has been that Mosley was trying to establish rules that are clearly outside of the jurisdiction of the FIA. Teams disagreed, so what do you want now? What can you possibly say and tell me to prove that the ball is not a ball, that the Moon is not the Moon, that the monkey is not the monkey? Because that is what you are trying to do. 85% of the population think so, 10% of them are neutral, and 5% of them are blind. You must be the blind 5%. Its called narrow minded. I like however that you follow the rules of how FIA should in fact represent and how they should govern and operate. But unfortunately that is exactly what FIA is not doing.

          • VXR said on 1st July 2009, 0:28

            And to the person who created”Wheretheheckarewestan”, I can’t remember just now who it was, but thanks ever so much for such a marvelously evocative term.

            Yours truly.;)

          • VXR said on 1st July 2009, 0:44

            Wow honestly, I really think you dont see what is happening in F1. You seem a little bit new to it mentally, and if you dont see it im sorry but you are a little bit narrow minded.

            A “little bit new”,that had us rolling about I can tell you! LOL

            Because that is what you are trying to do. 85% of the population think so, 10% of them are neutral, and 5% of them are blind. You must be the blind 5%. Its called narrow minded.

            85% of the “population” ? 95% of the population couldn’t give a toss what went on if F1! We are ‘all’ in a minority here.

            You make it sound like the whole country has got aboard the FOTA express with a one way ticket to Utopia.

            I like however that you follow the rules of how FIA should in fact represent and how they should govern and operate. But unfortunately that is exactly what FIA is not doing.

            The FIA and not Max ? OK then.;)

            We agree that the FIA is flawed,but obviously not flawed enough for FOTA to want anything more to do with them.Why is that I wonder? *Think carefully now*

      • scunnyman said on 30th June 2009, 3:14

        Maybe for VXR everyone should read ALAN DONNELLY????????????????????????? lol

  5. For us, the fans? Other than frequently reducing ‘our’ sport to a global laughing stock you mean? Ot attempting to turn the sport into a glorified Formula Ford series? Or using his power to conduct petty-minded campaigns against perfectly decent & respected folk in F1?

    Nothing, nada, zilch, zip, nowt!

    It’s time to claim our sport back folks… http://www.formulaoneworld.com.

    As FOTA have recently proved beyond doubt, a united mass holds the power. If you really want a say in F1, rather than being treated by Max & others like something they trod in, sign up!!

    • VXR said on 29th June 2009, 15:03

      As FOTA have recently proved beyond doubt, a united mass holds the power.

      That is true of so many organisations…both good and bad.

  6. dsob said on 30th June 2009, 4:54

    VXR, I can only imagine that you must be related to Mr Mosley, or on his payroll, to so consistently and vociferously defend him.

    The FiA and WMSC have routinely put a rubber-stamp approval on Mosley’s suggestions for years.

    And, yes, we all do believe that what Mosley says is what goes in F1, or has been until just recently, because in point of fact, Mosley is the governing body of F1. This has been the case since Mosley became FISA President in 1991, and then dissolved FISA when he became FiA President in 1993. With the dissolution of FISA, Max Mosley became de facto governing body of F1.

    Considering that up until his FISA Presidency he was legal advisor to FOCA, one may have thought his election would have been a good thing for the teams. History shows, though, that Mosley felt little if any falilial spirit for FOCA once he left them.

    It was a questionable, to put it mildly, deal for Mosley/FiA to sell the media rights for F1 to Bernie Ecclestone for such a small amount and for such a long period of time, especially in light of the fact that no competing bids were solicited.

    Mosley has a history of doing what is good for Mosley (and frequently what is good for Bernie), without regard to the needs or wishes of others.

    As to mention of the FiA Articles, VXR, Article 2 Paragraph 3:

    3) Promoting the development of motor sport, enacting, interpreting and enforcing common rules applicable to the organization and running of motor sport events.

    Nowhere does it mention “creating” rules.

    There is supposed to be a Sporting Authority in each country or region, or an Authority for motorsport which encompasses more than one country/region. That was what FISA was for F1. This was covered in Article 5, Exercise of the Sporting Power”:

    “…At the request of the holder of the Sporting Power and on proposal of the World Motor Sport Council, the General Assembly exceptionally shall authorise the holder of the Sporting Power to exercise this power through another organisation to which the Sporting Power shall then be delegated.

    The delegation may be:

    a) Total (i.e. covering all sporting activities), and in favour of one single organization functioning throughout the national territory.

    b) Total (i.e. covering all sporting activities), and in favour of one or several organizations functioning over a specific area of the territory.

    c) Selective (i.e. covering specific sporting activities), and in favour of one or more organisations exercising over the entire territory the functions which have been assigned to them.”

    The pertinent portion of this article is Paragraph C, under which FISA was created in 1922.

    Since 1993, Mosley has been riding roughshod over F1, though admitedly in the earlier years his performance was less onerous than of late.

    The situation currently, though, has reached a point that any thinking person must call for Mosley to step down, or for FiA to remove him. The fact that FiA has not done so already is a testament to the degree to which Mosley has the FiA Senate cowed. And please don’t speak to me of the 100-odd voting members of the Assembly. Some tiny car club in Wheretheheckarewestan hardly has a full grasp of the situation, and it was the smaller less F1-savvy clubs whose votes kept him in power, not the larger mainstream motorsport bodies. Mosley is ever so thankful for the “one club, one vote” rule.

    VXR, my dog-eared copy of the FiA Articles is right here on my desk, as it has been the last 50 years. Anytime you’d like to discuss them, you just let me know. :)

    And this last bit is for Dougie.

    “This morning I’m wondering “why do I support Max so much?”…
    Maybe I don’t actually support Max, maybe comments like mp4-19b and Maksutov just get my back up. I’ve always taken time to understand and side with the persecuted and the under-dog. I tend to go against the masses and try to understand the other side. But in all honesty this time I’ve got to let logic and the facts override this psychological element in me.”

    That’s alright, Mate, better late than never. Welcome aboard.

    And to the person who created”Wheretheheckarewestan”, I can’t remember just now who it was, but thanks ever so much for such a marvelously evocative term.

    • scunnyman said on 30th June 2009, 5:08

      OMG dsob……………………..
      Thankyou thankyou.

      At last some sanity in this mele of madness.

      This whole mess if the fault of the FIA delegates and sporting clubs who over the years have not had enough gumption to stop Mosley in his tracks.

      Maybe the FIA need the American approach and have a maximum 2 terms of office? The only trouble with that is the president would only arrange for his puppet to take over, or should i say Muppet?lol

      But Thanks again dsob. I’m sure i can sayu on behalf of maybe 99.9% of us here THANKYOU.

      • dsob said on 30th June 2009, 5:26

        Thanks for the kind words, scunnyman.

        I’d favor a term limitation, yes. Otherwise, you get into situations like Huey Long and Strom Thurmond, here in the U.S., where a politician in office too long forgets he once had a mandate.

        Also, I’d favor legislation precluding any person with a possible conflict of interest from seeking the office of FiA President.

        The post is, should be, primarily one of administration, so any competent businessman or attorney would fill the bill. I don’t believe an intimate knowledge of the workings of F1 is needed to decide if any propsed rule change vets out to meet the “2+2=4″ standard.

        • scunnyman said on 30th June 2009, 7:17

          I’d agree on the idea of any restrictions put on a person who has conflicts of interest being able to run for any influencial position within FIA not just President.
          And yes why does anyone in charge of FIA have to have motorsport knowledge. Is that not why they have advisors and such. Just need someone who can ADMINISTRATE.

          BY the way dsob, do you know anything about Nick Craw?
          I have heard he is good, but nothing about his work and professional life. I have said in other posts that it would be good to have him at the head of the FIA in the way of bringing USA more into the fold and getting F1 into USA more.
          What do you think?
          If you don’t have any info on Nick Craw then maybe somebody else might.

      • VXR said on 1st July 2009, 1:40

        Maybe the FIA need the American approach and have a maximum 2 terms of office?

        From October 2005, the President of the FIA may not serve more than two consecutive terms of office, subject always to Article 12.1.

  7. dsob said on 30th June 2009, 5:14

    I totally forgot to mantion the safety issue in my other post.

    As Daffid mention earlier, Sir Jakie Stewart was loudly campaining for better safety years before Max Mosley was involved in F1.

    And I agree, ANY incumbent would have enacted new rules after the 1994 disaster(though perhaps a different incumbent would have thought them through, first).

    Persempre made mention in another Comments thread here of Prof Watson, and now I’ve lost the link she posted, darn it. But Stewart introduced Watson to F1, and Watson did more for safety in F1 than any two other people I can think of.

    And the person who most helped Watson ram through what he needed at the venues was Bernie Ecclestone, believe it or not. The Evil Elf did some real good at one time.

    Max Mosley, the Great Champion of F1 Safety? I think not.

    • Dougie said on 30th June 2009, 9:16

      Comments thread here of Prof Watson, and now I’ve lost the link she posted, darn it. But Stewart introduced Watson to F1, and Watson did more for safety in F1 than any two other people I can think of.

      Oh, dsob, you had me there. FIA articles on your desk, intimate knowledge of the workings of the FIA and the sport generally. A good balanced opinion, if a little in your face, but that could be said of lots here, me included possibly.

      However, anyone that knows anything about F1 knows who Professor Sid Watkins is.

      Oh dear! ;-)

      • dsob said on 30th June 2009, 12:38

        Oh, gracious, pardon me while I look embarrased. Rather like calling out the wrong girl’s name whilst in the throes of passion. Not as serious in consequences, certainly, but embarrasing nonetheless.

        Of course, I meant Sid Watkins. It’s tough getting old, memory is sometimes spotty on names.

        And you remind me that I need to be more restrained in the way in which I present my comments, sometimes. As a former business owner and retired naval officer I am used to saying what I think, when I think it , and the way I think it, which can be perceived as confrontational. Thank you for the reminder.

        • Dougie said on 30th June 2009, 13:15

          Ach, it’s something we’re both guilty of, I sometimes wish more people were like that, the world has gone too PC. But I guess sometimes we have to accept diplomacy.

  8. scunnyman said on 30th June 2009, 8:54

    Well Maksutov and dsob and any others out there. It’s a waste of time trying to get through to VXR. He’s as bad as Mosley himself, just won’t listen and thinks he knows best. He won’t look at both sides of an argument as most of us do.
    Even Dougie has had a change of heart.

    But at the end of the day VXR is allowed his opinion. Best to just ignore.

    • VXR said on 30th June 2009, 9:18

      just won’t listen and thinks he knows best.

      Right back at yer.;)

      But at the end of the day VXR is allowed his opinion. Best to just ignore.

      I know both sides of the argument only too well,probably more so than anyone on this forum is ever likely to do.

      But probably best just to ignore.

      I’m no fan of Max,indeed I find him to be rather arrogant,but that’s all,and if he rode ‘rough-shod’ over the teams it’s because they could never come up with any rules that suited anyone other than their own teams way of thinking.

      But I’m no fan of FOTA either.Since the rather ‘limp’ proposals in their ‘roadmap’ they seem to be now making it up as they go along,and somehow I think that many of us got carried along for the ride.

      Also the next few months will reveal that Mosley got more of a bargain than some think.

      I understand what FOTA are trying to do,but I also have serious doubts that FOTA will be able to deliver anything at all different to what we have now.

    • Dougie said on 30th June 2009, 9:22

      Why do we have to change peoples opinions, why can’t we just have a debate and respect opinions?

      I’ve had a change of heart regarding that Max has served his time, mostly because I feel that 2 terms is enough and the power has corrupted him. With regards to dsob referring to Max (or whoever) putting his monkey in the box, sometimes the monkey can turn… for the better.

      However I respect VXR opinion and understand where he is coming from. F1 is more than Max… its Bernie, its the FIA, its the WMSC, its FOTA… and for me they are all as guilty as each other for this mess that is Formula 1 in 2009.

    • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 10:02

      scunnyman:
      —————————————-
      Well Maksutov and dsob and any others out there. It’s a waste of time trying to get through to VXR. He’s as bad as Mosley himself, just won’t listen and thinks he knows best. He won’t look at both sides of an argument as most of us do.
      Even Dougie has had a change of heart.
      —————————————-

      Well whatever people are thinking out there, Nothing beats truth and reality. Which is Mosley is doing damage to F1 with his childish bickering and manipulative games. Not really how a governing body should behave and operate. But FOTA also need to learn how to make decisions and stick with them. Specially with the latest deals made with FIA – like in my opinion there shouldn’t have been any deal with FIA under the current circumstances. So I was very disappointed with how it was handled. In fact nothing makes sense with this new deal.

      • scunnyman said on 30th June 2009, 10:10

        I have sore misgivings about the FOTA/FIA deal too and we on this forum are going around in circles because no news is coming out to tell us what is happening. I just want to start again with a clean sheet.
        Surely the FIA can’t be a law unto themselves. There must be a court somewhere who can close them down.

        • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 16:43

          and we on this forum are going around in circles because no news is coming out to tell us what is happening.

          haha yes we are, we need more news. :)

          Surely the FIA can’t be a law unto themselves. There must be a court somewhere who can close them down.

          I honestly hope so.

  9. Dougie said on 30th June 2009, 9:24

    But I’m no fan of FOTA either.Since the rather ‘limp’ proposals in their ‘roadmap’ they seem to be now making it up as they go along,and somehow I think that many of us got carried along for the ride.
    Also the next few months will reveal that Mosley got more of a bargain than some think.
    I understand what FOTA are trying to do,but I also have serious doubts that FOTA will be able to deliver anything at all different to what we have now.

    …and this is one balanced view I personally 100% rubber stamp. Agreed.

  10. scunnyman said on 30th June 2009, 9:40

    “I know both sides of the argument only too well,probably more so than anyone on this forum is ever likely to do.”

    Please VXR could you qualify that statement?

    And i agree with you Dougie nobody should be trying to change peoples opinions. And i don’t think anyone is, well i know i’m not. We just want to know how people get to theirs over years of evidence that shows they may be wrong.

    • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 10:03

      “I know both sides of the argument only too well,probably more so than anyone on this forum is ever likely to do.”

      haha sounds like Mosley to me.

      • Dougie said on 30th June 2009, 10:34

        “I know both sides of the argument only too well,probably more so than anyone on this forum is ever likely to do.”

        haha sounds like Mosley to me.

        So, Maksutov, are you saying that Max has a balanced view and can understand both parties??

        …and I thought you didn’t like him as well, I guess the worm has turned… :-D

        • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 16:11

          So, Maksutov, are you saying that Max has a balanced view and can understand both parties??

          hehe, I see what you trying to do. Anyway answer is no. What I ment by that is that Mosley also thinks he knows more then anyone else. :p

          and no I dont like Mosley. Worm will never turn on that one im afraid – actually I will keep an open mind for his sake. But he has to do a lot to make me change my mind.

    • VXR said on 30th June 2009, 12:17

      Please VXR could you qualify that statement?

      That would reveal too much I’m afraid.;)

      We just want to know how people get to theirs over years of evidence that shows they may be wrong.

      It became apparent to me a long time ago that while the FIA were not the greatest governing body in the world (to put it mildly),it was also apparent that the teams were also ‘blind’ to what we the fans wanted.Between the two of them,and particularly regarding the opportunities that Max (FIA) gave the teams to create their own rules (remember that Max would usually come up with three sets of rules,with only one set that was do-able and then say to the teams ‘can you do better ?’ which inevitably they didn’t because they could never agree on anything)they seem to have made a right B******s of it!

      And now we have the same situation again,nothing has changed.We’d be fools to think that the FIA will run the sport any differently or allow the sport to be run any differently,and we’d be fools to think that FOTA have the fans best interests at heart when all that really matters to the people who are really in charge there is that the teams who should (?) be at the front are at the front and everyone will therefore be very happy.

      • Maksutov said on 30th June 2009, 16:32

        And now we have the same situation again,nothing has changed.We’d be fools to think that the FIA will run the sport any differently or allow the sport to be run any differently,and we’d be fools to think that FOTA have the fans best interests at heart when all that really matters to the people who are really in charge there is that the teams who should (?) be at the front are at the front and everyone will therefore be very happy.

        mmmm, well i think you are wrong in that “nothing has changed” part. Mosley got frustrated because teams created FOTA. Mosley said himself: “We are not going to allow FOTA to run F1″ (not that FOTA ever had intention of doing so). This turned into battle of power for Mosley rather then rules. Additionally, Mosley has had some overwhelming humiliation which has undoubtedly changed the way he and/or the FIA makes the decisions and especially the way he applies those decisions. Additionally Mosley is getting old and perhaps death of his son has made him even more unbalanced (which is of course unfortunate). But, since Mosley pretty much owns FIA, and since his 2010 regulations for financial control were completely unrealistic and outside of the jurisdiction of FIA, and since HE did not accept the teams veto over those rules, and since he spat the dummy over their disagreement and objection, and since he and/or the FIA did not work to resolve those differences in an ordinarily manner, ..you CAN NOT say that nothing has changed over the way in which FIA apply their rules. In fact, it has been getting worse and worse each year, specially the last year which was triggered by Mosley’s personal humiliation and agenda. Mosley is no longer fit to be the president of the governing body of motor sport.

  11. Tom L said on 30th June 2009, 21:02

    “Like the Romans in Monty Python’s “The Life of Brian”, Max Mosley gets a fair bit of stick from F1 fans”

    F1 fans in the Life of Brian? Must have missed that part! The championship is clearly older than I thought!

  12. dsob said on 1st July 2009, 1:09

    Tom L, you didn’t know that FiA sanctioned the chariot races ?

    • VXR said on 1st July 2009, 1:58

      Tom L, you didn’t know that FiA sanctioned the chariot races ?

      The President was one Maximus Mosleius.The races were organised by Bernius Ecclus.

      Participants included Scuderius Ferrarius and McLarenus Mercedeus.They were joined by other teams in a group known as ‘FOETUS’.

      The rules were quite simple;Scuderius Ferrarius were the ‘home’ team and therefore must always win.This was ensured by what was then known as “Techicalus Vetous” which virtually guaranteed victory.Everyone was happy.LOL

      • Maksutov said on 1st July 2009, 7:53

        The President was one Maximus Mosleius.The races were organised by Bernius Ecclus.

        Participants included Scuderius Ferrarius and McLarenus Mercedeus.They were joined by other teams in a group known as ‘FOETUS’.

        The rules were quite simple;Scuderius Ferrarius were the ‘home’ team and therefore must always win.This was ensured by what was then known as “Techicalus Vetous” which virtually guaranteed victory.Everyone was happy.LOL

        LOL…

      • just me said on 2nd July 2009, 18:44

        The rules were quite simple;Scuderius Ferrarius were the ‘home’ team and therefore must always win.This was ensured by what was then known as “Techicalus Vetous” which virtually guaranteed victory.Everyone was happy.

        Ahhh, good old times, good old times …

        Brilliant, VXR :-)

  13. This may have been covered elsewhere but I’m rather confused about it.

    Mosley says that FOTA can set up their own series as long as it’s under the International Sporting Code.

    Why?

    The ISC is an FIA thing isn’t it? Surely there’s no obligation for any motorsport to take place under the auspices of the FIA, and in fact, NASCAR Indy Cars and Le Mans don’t have anything to do with the FIA. Presumably the new FOTA series would be the same.

    Why would Max say that?

    • Maksutov said on 2nd July 2009, 8:39

      Because he thinks he is god

    • just me said on 2nd July 2009, 18:53

      @ Gregor
      All the series you mention are governed primarily by national/regional (multinational but not world) organisations as far as I know.

      A rival series to F1 would need an internationally accepted governing/arbitration body accepted and respected by a vast majority of nations if the organizers want any chance at success.

      • @just me

        Perhaps – but there’s no legal obligation to adhere to the ISC, as Mosley is implying. It just seemed a very strange thing to say.

        If FOTA did choose to launch their own series and chose to stay within the ISC then they’d be under the auspices of the FIA once again and in exactly the same position.

        Perhaps Max hasn’t quite realised that he doesn’t have the final say on every act of motorsport that takes place in the world!

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