F1 links: Mosley’s U-turn on FOTA deal
7th July 2009, 20:38 by Keith Collantine 52 Comments »
Max Mosley has refused to honour the terms of his deal with FOTA, telling the eight teams the agreement reached last month will only stand if they can get the three new teams plus Force India and Williams to agree to it.
Although this news has only broke publicly today, Mosley’s instruction to FOTA was sent in a letter dated June 26th – straight after his broadside against FOTA for describing him as a ‘dictator’.
More on that story and others in the links below.
FIA: FOTA can’t finalise rules by itself
Letter from Mosley to the teams reveals he will not stick to the 24th June agreement. "As you are aware, Article 66 of the International Sporting Code states that no change can be made to the published regulations without the agreement of all confirmed entrants."
The Weekly Grapevine (sub. req.)
"The validity of using Article 66 as a veto may be in doubt. It refers specifically to 'the/a meeting', which the Formula 1 world championship, by the FIA’s own definitions, most certainly is not. Furthermore, the term ‘Supplementary Regulations’ is defined as a ‘compulsory official document issued by the promoters of a sporting competition’ (which the FIA, by dint of its EU mandate, is not)."
Vatanen to stand against Mosley?
"Vatanen is rumoured to have the support of the American Automobile Association (AAA) and probably has support from the biggest European club as well, Germany's ADAC. These clubs came out against Mosley a year ago during his sex scandal but were defeated by an alliance of small clubs from Africa and the Middle East that gathered around Mosley to protect him. This was led by the UAE's Mohammad bin Sulayem."
Vatanen’s perfect for the FIA – if he can get elected
Although he’s now stood down from MEP duty, it’s clear he made an impression. Take this testimony from fellow MEP Richard Helmer: “He’d be great in the job [as president of the FIA]. Ari was an MEP in European parliaments, and had a distinguished career. He was highly respected, especially on automotive issues. I am very sorry that he is not coming back in the parliament — I should have enjoyed working with him."
Analysis: Vatanen’s name not enough
"This cabinet system was introduced in 2005, just prior to Mosley successfully winning another term as president after standing unopposed. The original aim of the cabinet system was to ensure that wild card candidates could not put themselves forward and hope to capitalise on merely a negative vote for the current president." I wonder why the FIA thought that was a likely scenario?
Villeneuve keen to find F1 drive
"I've been saying it for ten years: ban pitstops, get back to slick tyres, and get rid of electronics. I'm only sorry that compulsory pitstops for tyre changes are staying, because that takes away some of the action coming from the fuel factor. It's good to see a driver who stays on the track without changing tyres, maybe running slower, while another one maybe wastes time in the pitstop then closes the gap." Jacques Villeneuve: a man who Gets It.
Bernie and Adolf (Letters to the editor)
"I totally agree with Bernie Ecclestone — dictators get things done. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and Saddam are just a few of the glorious list of stars. I can speak with authority since my family enjoyed the “getting-things-done” approach of Adolf, leaving me one of the few unscathed."
I was a fool to talk about admiring Hitler
"First, an apology. As readers of The Times will know, I remarked in an interview with this newspaper that Hitler was able to get things done. I have no complaints about the quote — it is what I said — but it was not what I meant to say."
Fuji pulls plug on Japanese GP
"Toyota's decision to stop the bankrolling of the Fuji event, which Reuters has suggested was costing it around £12-£18 million GBP, come against the backdrop of the company expecting overall losses of £5.5 billion GBP in the business year to March 2010."
Ecclestone: I was an idiot over Hitler
"He said he had been horrified at what he saw at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem. 'It takes quite a lot to make me cry and I cried when I came out of that place. What I regret is people who have taken this the wrong way and have been offended, I’m really, really sad about because I have done an awful [lot] for Jewish community throughout, charities and whatever.'"
These are links I’ve bookmarked using Delicious. You can see my Delicious profile here.
Casino Square said on 7th July 2009, 20:47
Max Mosley is such a prat. Why doesn’t he just do us all a favour and jump down a well… or at least resign. Then he could dedicate more time to the old ‘spanky- spanky’
VXR said on 7th July 2009, 20:47
Link to Mosley U-turn.
No prizes for guessing which team will be playing its ‘Joker’.
Keith Collantine said on 7th July 2009, 20:49
That’s the same link as at the top of the article.
VXR said on 7th July 2009, 20:54
My bad.;-)
Dougie said on 7th July 2009, 21:22
LOL!! Too true though, seems to be falling Max’s way…as he planned perhaps! Interesting, but oh god what a mess!
dsob said on 8th July 2009, 4:38
Too true, Dougie. Now we see what he was up to all along.
That’s why he layed down so easily at the conference with Bernie and Luca. He never had any intention of following through. Much as I dislike the man personally, I must hand it to him. Genius, pure genius.
Prisoner Monkeys said on 8th July 2009, 7:11
Why are so many people reading Max Mosley’s comments as an attempt to sabotage things? He’s giving them a chance to reaffirm their power base, and he’s handing it to them on a silver platter.
The eight FOTA team members will likely agree to their own rules in quick successiion, because if they couldn’t do it, they wouldn’t have gone rogue, and men like Luca di Montezemolo and Ross Brawn and co. aren’t the sort of people who’d make that kind of threat without at least being able to follow through.
Williams and Force India have no long-standing grudges with FOTA. The only point of contention is their breaking ranks and submitting unconditional entries. Both teams want to go back into the organisation, and agreeing to the rules set by FOTA would be the perfect way to show that they’re willing to follow FOTA’s lead. They may raise minor points of contention, but nothing dramatic because their stance all along has been that Formula One needs to remain whole.
Campos, US-F1 and Manor won’t have much of a choice. They’re all new, and so have virtually no say in the matter. FOTA will likely listen to them because they want a larger grid, but I don’t think the three new teams would raise any objections.
Dougie and dsob, I think you’re reading Article 66 the wrong way. It says the following:
The important part:
The operative word is “OR the stewards”. In order for the rules to change, either all the teams need to agree to it, or the stewards need to step in for reasons of safety or what basically equates to an Act of God (a force majeure). Max Mosley is not a steward; while Alan Donnelly is, as race director, Charlie Whiting has seniority. And even then, there’s only a limited number of reasons why they could step in and you can bet FOTA will counter them.
Even if the FIA gets in the way of FOTA’s rules, what changes? The 2010 championship will be run under the current 2009 regulations. The three new teams may struggle, but the existing teams providing assistance to them is not a part of the actual rulebook. Besides, FOTA will either present their rules immedaitely before FIA elections – so that if Mosley causes trouble, it will be very bad for him – or afterwards so that he cannot cause trouble at all.
persempre said on 8th July 2009, 12:21
The thorn in the side (if all the tales are true) would be Manor, Prisoner. It’s all the teams which must sign not just the FOTA teams. There are 3 teams which signed on the understanding there would be a budget cap. Of those I think 2 would probably (but not guaranteed) go ahead uncapped but Manor?
With all the whispers about Donnelly the reference to the stewards only makes that whole Manor set-up look even more dodgy.
I still can’t see why Max is quoting an Article designed to be for Organisation of Events to the teams.
lol – I think he must have sat up every night going through the book searching desperately for something, anything, he could use to his own ends.
Casino Square said on 8th July 2009, 15:58
Surely Mosley allowed Manor a place in F1 over the likes of Prodrive and Lola to cause this situation- they hardly merit a spot from their nBritish motorsport credentials. How is it fair that the teams have to be unanimous? If the combined power of Ferrari, Mclaren and the rest of the F1 teams is not enough to challenge Manor alone because of some stupid FIA legislation it will be an absolute disaster.
Toby Bushby said on 9th July 2009, 0:38
Williams and Force India are going to side with FOTA against Mosley (or The Maxists, if you like), simply because that’s where their engine supply comes from. I don’t think that either team would relish the idea of rejigging their 2010 cars to fit a Cosworth in the back.
The rest is all nonsense, not brilliance. Manor is obviously a Maxist plant. And I’d like to know at which point can the authorities be called in to investigate this obvious corruption by an “elected” official? Seriously, since when is F1 or the FIA allowed to operate outside of the law?
Romain from Grenoble said on 7th July 2009, 22:49
I understand that I won’t have much support on this website, but I do not agree with the majority view. My humble opinion is something like this : formula1 is a sport (it is also a show, but I want to watch a sport event). The competitors signed in, and agreed that the regulator would be the Fia. Then, they disagreed with the 2010 regulations (which I found sound and reasonable, but it is only my opinion). A big fuss happened, and finally they all agreed to something, and they did not communicate the details of this deal. The car manufacturers told the media that the cost cap was forgotten, and that they would “help” the new teams.
The whole F1 show has always been very funny, but this is really extreme. I do not trust the established teams to voluntarily help the new ones. In France, we have something very similar in politics. The regulator wanted to pass a law to control the employer income when there were proven management errors. Then, the union of employers Medef (the equivalent of the italian Cofindustria whose president was Luca Di Montezemolo for the last 4 years) disagreed with the regulator, and promised “not to pay the employers in an excessive way when there are management errors”. The government backed down and allowed the employers to self regulate.
Anyone with a bit of common sense can see through this. Now, I am happy that the formula1 regulator has more political skill than the french government. The latest statement from the Fia is only the next logical step in Mosley “grand plan”. He kindly reminded the existing teams that there is a legislation controlling how rules can be changed at the last minute : with the agreement of all the teams.
Autosport.com states that all 13 teams will meet tomorrow to discuss. One thing is sure : they will be bullyed to accept changes to the regulations, which would advantage the established teams : no cost cap, no movable rear wing, the same rev limit for their 4 year old Cosworth engine …
This political sport is at least as entertaining as the racing.
persempre said on 7th July 2009, 23:08
I think the question, Romain, has to be if those French employers wanted to retire or move their company outside the relevant regulation (in this case outside France to another country’s governance) would the French government be able to stop them & insist they had to stay in business in France?
This is the situation F1 finds itself in.
The closest thing I can think of is a form of slavery or enforced labour where people are made to work under conditions they find deplorable without the right to leave.
Romain from Grenoble said on 7th July 2009, 23:27
Well. I did not experiment slavery personally, but I presume it would be different from signing up to the formula1 championship.
In more details : nobody is forced to accept the regulations. It is possible that some teams signed some contract stating they would compete until some unknown date (the internet rumor says Ferrari and Red Bull did), but we do not know the details.
If they signed to this, now they can only accept the new regulations. If they did not trust the regulator, they should not have signed.
Furthermore, they probably had some secret advantage when they signed this. So when they now say “the regulator is abusing his position”, it makes for a great show.
dsob said on 8th July 2009, 4:25
I believe the term here, persempre, is indentured servant.
persempre said on 8th July 2009, 12:25
Ah, yes, dsob.
The dictionary definition for which is a debt bondage servant.
No wonder it’s right up Max’
street
JHunt said on 8th July 2009, 2:20
Good to see that it is permitted to express opinions other than get rid of Mosley and Bernie. I think you got it right on, and I think that at the end of the day, its about money. F1 did not used to generate as much $ as today prior to Bernie looking after building up the business, and the teams looking after the racing. Now that they see they are missing out on the action, it is THEY who want to rewrite the rules of the game. A cost cap would in fact provide better profitability if they maintained the same level of sponsorship income as today, but the fact that they don’t like that idea, is probably because it is merely used as an excuse to steal the whole pie.
Oliver said on 8th July 2009, 22:48
@JHunt.
It is not the amount of money the teams get that is important, it is the percentage of the money that is the crucial issue.
Bernie didn’t do anything for F1, anything he did was for himself. Retrace the history of how Bernie got to that position and you will find that he has betrayed thte teams.
A cost cap goes against all principles of business. F1 is a business operation for every team.
Maksutov said on 8th July 2009, 10:26
Ah, I knew immediately that you were from France when I started reading your post.
Anyway I will not say why. Whatever the case, you obviously have not followed all the problems with F1 so its hard to explain you the whole picture of what is happening. I can assure you it is more complicated then you think. And just to let you know, FIA is not a governing body everybody expects it to be, it is in fact a corrupt body with a dictatorship rule.
they do not have political skill. Only dictatorship skill.
Sporting code article 66 applies both ways. Meaning that the rules initially imposed by the FIA and Max Mosley are invalid and can not be applied in the first place, because the teams did not unanimously agree with them if so you want to follow the rules.
Yes that’s why Max Mosley loves the French people so much.
persempre said on 7th July 2009, 22:57
I can only think that Max doesn’t give a damn about F1, just about getting his own way. He’s responsible for the total mess F1 now finds itself in.
He’s forced teams with different requirements into a situation where nobody can be totally happy with the result except Max himself.
With every new revelation Manor seem more & more like a ‘plant’ to me.
Martin Whitmarsh in his recent video made an interesting point that FOTA asking the fans where they wanted the sport to go was probably seen as a challenge to the FIA & FOM.
Surely no-one expects to have any form of reasonable discussion with Mosley after all this?
Max, like FOTA, should remember that without the fans there is no F1 because without the fans there will be no TV & so no sponsors & ultimately no teams.
It really is time he woke up to the fact that he’s killing the goose that lays the FIA’s golden egg.
Maksutov said on 8th July 2009, 10:06
lol, nothing really that I can add, just say that, FOTA have failed to make piece and solve this issue. They need to learn that they can not deal with Mosley and the FIA. The whole of FIA is corrupt. Their entire staff is corrupt. WMSC is corrupt. Nobody there cares about the fans and the sport. I must say as much as I support them FOTA seem very brainless at the moment..
scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 23:52
Isn’t it strange when Mosley quotes article 66 when it suits him but not when he wants to bring in rules without informing the teams first.
This surely is a sign that FOTA should go it alone. Nobody can trust Mosley and the FIA anymore. I agree that the Manor team may be the one team to put the spanner in the works at this meeting between the teams.
dsob said on 8th July 2009, 4:47
oh, ayuh…I’d bet the house, the farm, and old Aunt Rosie’s virtue that Manor will gum it up. They know which side their bread is buttered on…and they know Unca Max is doin’ the butterin’.
I used to think J.R.Ewing was diabolical and Machiavellian…shucks, ol’ Max make him look like a Boy Scout, dunt he ?
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 2:05
And we all thought that Manor would “gum it up” for the FOTA teams
THE FIA ARE TOTALLY CAPABLE OF DOING THAT BY THEMSELVES as we saw at the nurburgring meeting. It’sounds a bit like NUREMBURG TRIALS lol I wish it were and the FIA and Max and Bernie were the ones on trial and found guilty of crimes against F1 and F1fanatics.
Maksutov said on 8th July 2009, 9:49
Right now I really dont know how to react. Crying and laughing at the same time!? seems to be what I want to do now. I don’t understand how this can be allowed to go on. This is beyond corrupt, beyond insane,.. there is no words to describe it. Nothing we say here matters. Nothing any sane individual says matters. FIA is TOTALLY beyond description “corrupt”.
I must say now that FOTA seem brainless to me. Very unimpressed with their actions.
Manor, will be the spanner that helps Mosley since Max Mosley’s close ally Alan Donnelly’s is in charge of making the team. Campos and USF1 will support FIA, so will Williams imbecile (sorry I know that is really bad of me to say ..lol) There is no spanner of justice and truth here. At this stage whatever happens we will have to accept the corrupt system and ignore it and move on.
mp4-19b said on 8th July 2009, 18:43
article 66 ? add another 6 to it & you get max’s number. this bloody satan has no place in the greatest ever sport created by god. i really dunno why god created this useless pile of max dung? this fellow must be gassed!
pSynrg said on 8th July 2009, 0:50
ZZZzzz…
ajokay said on 8th July 2009, 14:07
… wake me up when it’s all over.
scunnyman said on 8th July 2009, 14:25
You’ll need to go into hibernation at this rate ajokay. I can’t see an end to this farce anytime soon.
Maksutov said on 9th July 2009, 9:41
for a year at least if not more grrr…
HG said on 8th July 2009, 3:07
arrggh i wish he and bernie would just walk away and leave the sport alone. We are only ~1/2 way through the season and what have we had? DDD-gate, civil war and the worse power struggle seen for years, the hitler controversy (i mean f1 is suppose to be a sport, why a sport should suddenly become embroiled in a history lesson battle over the merits/cons of hitler, saddam and the problem with democracy according to bernie) and on and on and on..
breaks my heart for a sport i love
Bernie and max may once have been good for F1 (which itself has been the subject of various forum debates) but even if they ever were, they have become a cancer on F1. A useful organ can tun cancerous and hence become the problem. How much of this year has been about the racing? not much
DGR-F1 said on 8th July 2009, 8:27
Huh? I thought the point of Williams and Force India leaving (or being thrown out of) FOTA was that they were happy to agree to whatever Max told them to sign to, and that the three new teams wouldn’t have been chosen unless they had already agreed to it.
This is more blustering from Max to get FOTA in a spin. The team’s meeting ought to last about five minutes – I will offer to host it in my apartment!
Bigbadderboom said on 8th July 2009, 8:49
I can’t understand Max’s motivation, maybe it’s a Dominant/sub serviant thing I don’t get!!!!!
Why is he so obsessed with retaining the power over F1 Regulatory changes and admin? When he won’t even be around to weald it. I can see what he says he is trying to achieve but it still does not make sense, there has to more to all this than we know. He is an old man, why is this battle so important to him?
Manor are going to prove to be a real pain in the back for FOTA. I can’t see any other team not siding, or at least giving agreement to FOTA changes.
I can see Max in his office now saying “I love it when the plan comes together!!!”
Maksutov said on 8th July 2009, 9:57
Exactly he anticipated this in front, in fact I am expecting more from Mosley. FOTA have been double crossed, brainless bunch of … I dunno what. I dunno what to call them now, I support them but im NOT impressed with their latest dealings with FIA. When will they realize that there is NO solution with FIA and and you can not make deals with Mosley.
PJA said on 8th July 2009, 10:34
So now you need all the teams to agree to any rule changes, funny how when Mosley announced his rule changes earlier this year for a two tier F1 all the teams were opposed but that didn’t seem to stop him.
I think Williams will side with FOTA as they said they only broke ranks and signed up as they felt they were legally bound to race in F1 so it wasn’t a decision between FIA and FOTA as they had no choice. I would have thought Force India and USF1 should also side with FOTA, any problems will arise with Campos and Manor, there were questions asked why they were chosen over some other teams, and the links between Donnelley and Manor have raised more suspicions.
Just when you think things are sorted Mosley has to try and wreck everything.
dsob said on 8th July 2009, 16:40
I thought you all might get a smile from this photograph. At any rate, the young lady is lovely.
And Lord knows, we all need something to smile about.
dsob said on 8th July 2009, 16:41
well, I see the link didn’t make it.
Try this way:
http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/1311295
Maksutov said on 9th July 2009, 9:43
lol lol….
persempre said on 8th July 2009, 17:51
Pasted from Forum:
FIA Press Release 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship 08/07/2009
Following the decision of the World Council on 24 June to revert to the pre-29 April version of the 2010 F1 Sporting and Technical Regulations, the FIA today met the teams which have entered the 2010 Championship to seek their agreement to these changes.
All changes have now been agreed subject only to the maintenance of the minimum weight at 620 kg and the signing of a legally binding agreement between all the teams competing in 2010 to reduce costs to the level of the early 1990s within two years, as promised by the FOTA representative in Paris on 24 June.
The eight FOTA teams were invited to attend the meeting to discuss their further proposals for 2010. Unfortunately no discussion was possible because FOTA walked out of the meeting.
—————-
Oh Happy Days.
persempre said on 8th July 2009, 18:35
Swiftly followed by FOTA`s version:
Representatives of all FOTA teams attended a meeting of the Sporting Working Group at the Nürburgring today.
During the course of this meeting, the team managers were informed by Mr Charlie Whiting of the FIA that, contrary to previous agreements, the eight FOTA teams are not currently entered into the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship and have no voting rights in relation to the technical and sporting regulations thereof.
It will be remembered that all eight active FOTA members were included on the “accepted” entry list as endorsed by the FIA World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) and communicated by FIA press statement on June 24.
In light of these claims, the FOTA representatives requested a postponement of today’s meetings. This was rejected on the grounds that no new Concorde Agreement would be permitted before a unanimous approval of the 2010 regulations was achieved.
However, it is clear to the FOTA teams that the basis of the 2010 technical and sporting regulations was already established in Paris.
As endorsed by the WMSC and clearly stated in the FIA press statement of 24 June “the rules for 2010 onwards will be the 2009 regulations as well as further regulations agreed prior to 29 April 2009”. At no point in the Paris discussions was any requirement for unanimous agreement on regulations change expressed. To subsequently go against the will of the WMSC and the detail of the Paris agreement puts the future of Formula 1 in jeopardy.
As a result of these statements, the FOTA representatives at the subsequent Technical Working Group were not able to exercise their rights and therefore had no option other than to terminate their participation.
The FOTA members undertook the Paris agreement and the subsequent discussions in good faith and with a desire to engage with all new and existing teams on the future of Formula One.
dsob said on 8th July 2009, 19:01
An interesting developement.
From what I read, there are now 5 teams in the FiA Formula 1 grid for the 2010 season.
Since FOTA has been officially informed that “FOTA teams are not currently entered into the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship and have no voting rights in relation to the technical and sporting regulations thereof”, it seems to me that running their own series is now their only option, if they wish to race following the 2009 season.
Now, FOTA, now will you please go do it? Go run your own championship. They have basiclly kicked you out. And this is not a bad thing. If you do it right.
I have no idea what Mosley has in mind here, for on the face of it, apparently this has just destroyed FiA Formula 1.
Perhaps he feels that now the teams will crawl to him, begging to be let back in, giving him the absolute authority he evidently desires.
I pray that FOTA remains together and strong, and does not capitulate in any way.
Also, does this announcement by Whiting not release Ferrari and those other FOTA teams that Mosley maintained that they were contractually obligated? Good news for ferrari, if they will stay with FOTA and be the strong cornerstone meeded to make a new series happen.
Just keeping my fingers crossed , now. And can’t wait to hear what Luca & Flavio have to say beyond the press release.
mp4-19b said on 8th July 2009, 18:36
please assassinate this son of a hooker. i’ll be honored if that task is bestowed upon me.
Casino Square said on 8th July 2009, 20:08
I wouldn’t normally support assasination attempts on anyone… but if I can make an exception it could only be for Hitler, Saddam Hussein or Max Mosley.