F1 links: FOTA criticise FIA over deal
9th July 2009, 0:21 by Keith Collantine 50 Comments »
Predictably, FOTA has reacted to Max Mosley’s attempt to undermine the June 24th deal by insisting it be honoured. I can’t imagine what other reaction Mosley might have expected from them, or what he think his options are if he fails to get the FOTA eight on board for 2010.
I can only conclude he’s playing for time, hoping that either FOTA will crack or one of the teams’ parent companies elects to withdraw them, giving him further justification to push for a budget cap. (Though some manufacturers may conclude the shambolic manner in which the FIA is managing the sport at present is sufficient cause to put their resources elsewhere).
Here’s the press release from FOTA and more details on that story and others.
Press release – Formula One Teams Association
"As endorsed by the WMSC and clearly stated in the FIA press statement of 24 June “the rules for 2010 onwards will be the 2009 regulations as well as further regulations agreed prior to 29 April 2009”. At no point in the Paris discussions was any requirement for unanimous agreement on regulations change expressed. To subsequently go against the will of the WMSC and the detail of the Paris agreement puts the future of Formula 1 in jeopardy."
FOTA teams walk out of FIA meeting
"Some progress was made in terms of agreeing to scrap the specific budget cap rules introduced on April 29. However, the teams could not agree on a minimum weight limit for 2010, and there had also not been a sign-off of the legally binding agreement to reduce costs."
CVC apologises for Bernie Ecclestone’s Hitler gaffe
"'CVC was shocked at the comments made by Bernie Ecclestone on Saturday,' the private equity firm said. 'And we fully concur with the unreserved apology that was made by Mr Ecclestone yesterday.'" (via Vee8)
"There are times when being an F1 reporter is like being a radio operator, sending out messages about how things are going on a ship that has been out at sea for a long while. Well tonight this radio operator feels the need for a distress signal. The F1 ship is once again in great danger of foundering. God alone knows what is happening up on the bridge, but there is a bloody great hole in the bottom and unless someone starts behaving in a smarter manner than they have of late – and starts doing it very quickly indeed – the whole thing is going to sink without trace."
Why Formula One is still so in thrall to the Nazis
"The inter-war history of the sport was bound up to a disturbing degree with the rise of the far-right, particularly in Germany, and traits of the outlook remain to this day."
Bernie Ecclestone stays away from German Grand Prix event after Hitler row
"A spokesman for Nürburgring GmbH, the company that runs the track, said Mr Ecclestone had called off a visit tomorrow after a phone conversation with organisers. No further explanation was given but none was needed: any kind of public approval of Hitler, however heavily qualified, is taboo in Germany. A newsreader, Eva Herman, had to leave a talk show and was later sacked for giving Hitler the credit for Germany’s autobahns."
These are links I’ve bookmarked using Delicious. See other stories I’ve bookmarked here.
Prisoner Monkeys said on 9th July 2009, 1:03
*facepalm*
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 1:08
It would seem that the FIA must be on a collision course with FOTA. How does FIA think this latest saga will end? Do they think FOTA will submit? Maybe Mosley thinks he can drive a wedge in between the teams in FOTA.
This is the latest indication that Mosley will not give up, and Bernie is going to back his long term buddy. Will CVC be able to do anything to save their position?
Even if some sort of compromise can be reached that will appease FOTA, then how can they trust FIA in the future. Even without Mosley as president i see the FIA will carry on as they are now and have been for many years. I can’t see a change at the top of the FIA can make any difference at all to the situation. If Mosley says yes i will stand down and even puts it in writing how can anyone trust him.
I am getting so disillusioned by all this. i am so fed up.
PLEASE FOTA MAKE ALL/MOST OF F1 FANS HAPPY AND MAKE YOUR NEW SERIES. With plenty of help from various quarters and ideas from the fans about what will and will not work.
I cannot see how anybody can work with the FIA as it is right now, as FOTA have said the FIA seem to be putting F1 in jeopardy again. If the agreement in paris in June, and ratified by WMSC, did make it clear that the 8 Fota teams were included in the 2010 lineup then i don’t see how the FIA has a leg to stand on.
The trouble for us all is that, as we were saying after the paris meeting, is we needed to see in writing what had been agreed. So then we would know exactly what is going on.
I have been watching the 1989 season review and as i am writing this comment i am watching a press conference by Mclaren following the crash between Senna and Prost at Suzuka. It is like deja vu with Ron Dennis asking for transparent ruling from the FIA. It seems the stupid rules and the way the FIA operate has been going on for too long.
The point i am getting at is that the FIA made silly rulings even 20 years ago with Jean Marie Belestre as president. 20 years later the same thing again, maybe worse with Max Mosley as president. So who says it’ll be any different in 20 years time even if you have Ari Vatanen as president.
I end by saying please FOTA just leave those 2 faced people behind and make a future the fans can trust.
sasbus said on 9th July 2009, 3:14
Can’t agree with you more. Clearly Mr. Mosley and Mr. Eccleston have shown how unpredictable they can be.
Please please please FOTa move ahead and don’t look back.
NEW SERIES NEEDED DESPERATELY
Scunnyman yes you are right Mr Balestre was inconsistent Mr. Mosley is inconsistent and I very much doubt if anyone could put some sense into the FIA dictatorship.
Maksutov said on 9th July 2009, 7:39
I agree scunnyman…
FIA don’t think, they are totally corrupt by Mosley we now have 100% proof of that.
FOTA seem very naive, in terms of the fact that they DO NOT understand that they can not make deals with Mosley and corrupt FIA. Nothing will be solved in time to come. It is just going to be more of the same, unless FOTA truly wake up and realize that their indecision could in fact also harm the sport. FOTA need to make a decision on breakaway and stick with this no matter what.
Yes, even new president will continue the games. Because he/she will be forced by the rest of the corrupt FIA members. FIA is totally corrupt, and I can see myself repeating that word a billion times yet.
Couldn’t agree more. As a supporter of FOTA I now must also blame them for their incompetence, and awful decision making processes to make hidden game deals with Mosley and the FIA. I believe overal that the F1 corrupt sport will continue, because we can see a clear picture, FOTA have grown from the dictatorship rule and they dont seem to know any better. Hence their incompetence for not being able to move away from FIA.
That is correct. but it is obvious what was signed, nothing just some game deals made between three people, one member got s____ by two and he enjoyed it. Nobody else was present.
I must agree with that 100%. In fact I dont think there will be any difference at all with Ari or whoever because the total governing system, includes FIA and WMSC is corrupt to death. It is too far gone.
If only FOTA were competent to make and stick with that decision. But clearly they are not.
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 9:15
“FOTA seem very naive, in terms of the fact that they DO NOT understand that they can not make deals with Mosley and corrupt FIA. Nothing will be solved in time to come. It is just going to be more of the same, unless FOTA truly wake up and realize that their indecision could in fact also harm the sport. FOTA need to make a decision on breakaway and stick with this no matter what.”
“As a supporter of FOTA I now must also blame them for their incompetence, and awful decision making processes to make hidden game deals with Mosley and the FIA. I believe overal that the F1 corrupt sport will continue, because we can see a clear picture, FOTA have grown from the dictatorship rule and they dont seem to know any better. Hence their incompetence for not being able to move away from FIA.”
You make some very valid points Maksutov bud.
FOTA need to get their finger out and stop expecting the FIA and FOM/CVC to play the game fairly.
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 9:17
Oh and Maksutov, do you not get bored of agreeing with me? lol
dsob said on 9th July 2009, 8:31
It’s enough to make one tear one’s hair, isn’t it? It has gotten to the point of being laughable…or pathetic, I’m not sure which.
Alright, so now FiA, through Whiting, informs ALL the FOTA teams(including Ferrari) that they have no entry in the 2010 WDC. Interesting, that, as FiA had only a few weeks ago released the list for 2010 subsequent to the meeting where Bernie, Max and Luca hammered out a deal, which was then voted upon and ratified by the WMSC. Which, silly me, I thought made that agreement LAW. Additionally, prior to that meeting and vote, FiA had listed Ferrari on the 2010 list as an unconditional entry, claiming that Ferrari was contractually obligated to F1 through 2012. Now FiA says Ferrari has no 2010 entry.
Fine. Now I’d like to see Max sue them for not entering.
I’m not painting FOTA as lily-white, here. They have their share of ego and self-interest. But the actions of FiA and Mosley have gotten to the point of being reprehensible. And, you are right, Scunny, even back in the days of Balestre, FISA made stupid rules and bad decisions, but that was because Balestre was a pompous twit who wouldn’t listen to the experts, not because he was a power-hungry sociopath who lives to dominate and nothing else.
(I know, I should stop holding back and say what I really think.)
Many thoughts cross my mind, here. FiA/Mosley has just reduced the 2010 F1 grid to 5 teams. Insane, say I, for it surely means the doom of F1. Or is this exactly what Mosley has been after all along? Get rid of the manufacturers (whom he has hated for years)and the other insurgents so F1 next year can be capped at 30 mil and have all Cosworth engines–his very own little spec series. (And is Mosley perhaps even now on the phone to Lola and ProDrive, and the other 4 teams that didn’t get the nod for the 2010 grid?) Or, perhaps this is what Mosley believes his best power play to be, calculated to bring FOTA crawling on it’s knees and begging to be let back in? (And if there IS a god, then that will never happen.)
It is my belief that FOTA still holds a strong hand. They have the major manufacturers, the famous drivers, and they DON’T have Mosley or Bernie, which would HAVE to make venues & promoters happy.
Perhaps before FOTA was right to exercise every option to reach an agreement, to exercise due diligence.
But now, we see FiA/Mosley true colors. There is no way to make a deal with someone who has no concept of living up to a deal, or with someone who is playing you and never intended to keep their side of the deal in the first place. If ever there was a time for FOTA to decisivly and finally walk away for good, now is the time.
And now is the time for racing fans to be heard, too. Get those cards and e-mails going, let FOTA know what the grassroots die-hard fans want.
I believe it would behoove FOTA to make a plainly-worded statement, one that all folks can understand without consulting a lawyer, that they will indeed begin a new series. As it would behoove them to quickly get Lola and ProDrive on board.
With all I have seen recently in the press mentioning words like shame, disgrace, scandal and blackening-of-it’s-name in relation to FiA Formula 1, I firmly believe that such a plain and strong statement would bring sponsors and venues running to the FOTA series.
Let FiA include the other 4 teams that as yet had no grid slot, and run their unknown 18 car grid in front of grandstands that look like Turkey 2009, while the “FOTA 8″ add Prodrive and Lola and pack the house. Then it will be plain to see who won the FiA/FOTA War.
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 9:47
“I’m not painting FOTA as lily-white, here. They have their share of ego and self-interest. ”
Yes you’re right dsob.
I don’t think, though that anybody really believes FOTA are innocent little angels. But i’d say most would prefer a slightly muddy white FOTA than a grimey grey FIA.
Spud said on 9th July 2009, 19:54
A new series now is what is needed. I am sick and tired of all this bickering and dictating.
Set up the new series now and let williams and force india join up later when their contracts expire. Afterwards bring in the Lolas and the Aston Martins and then we will have a cracker of a championship with proper stable rules and proper circuits and hopefully proper (good looking) racing cars.
Leave Max and Bernie to themselves and watch as their F1 disappears when they dont have enough cars to fill a grid. Just wait and see……
jinthehouse said on 9th July 2009, 3:43
CVC could remove Bernie as director. It’s easier when he’s goes and says things like that. Then CVC could tell the fia to sode off and side with the teams………personally. i think the fota want the f1 name. i breakaway series may drive down the price and the fota and buy the f1 name. or cvc may want out and sell it too ferrari/fota. would you be surprised. (that your unfounded rumor of the week).
at some point between the f1/cvc, fota, fia people, two will HAVE to side together. the cvc thing gets more complicated and i get the feeling they won’t be supporting max if bernie isn’t around.
btw…..people like this run countries (all of them)
Gman said on 9th July 2009, 5:13
Just when you thought it was all over and we were back to normal……
The part I don’t get is on part of the FIA- it claims the FOTA teams are not fully registered, yet all of those teams were on the entry list published in the aftermath of the peace deal last week. Someone in the FIA offices must have missed their own point on that one.
It seems Max will never let things settle down- a sad case to say the least.
Ali Adams said on 9th July 2009, 6:37
Please FOTA please start you own series NOW and field B-rate cars until 2012 if required. Meanwhile buy out the failing A1 and
Let’s all the fans suggests a great name for the series.
My entry is: FansFirst.
Maksutov said on 9th July 2009, 7:46
If it ever happens it would be a true miracle. But I very much doubt, and on the end FOTA will be to blame for their incompetence. Their inability to move forward with a set goal simply shows that they have grown with a dictatorship rule and they simply don’t know any better.
DGR-F1 said on 9th July 2009, 8:32
Is Max so determined to get one over Luca and FOTA that he is willing to lose everything? I have just read the BBC report on the FOTA walkout, in a statement FOTA said that Max had decided the eight teams were not entered into the 2010 Championship, and therefore could not dicuss any changes to the rules. But it was Max who put their names on the list on 12th July! He is either getting sillier or craftier by the day…
So the only teams allowed to discuss anything were Williams, Force India and the newbies. No wonder the other eight walked!
So Bernie has seen sense and won’t be in Germany? Good! And CVC has had to apolgise for him too, that does not make for good business. Maybe they will drop him as a figurehead rather quickly now, before he manages to upset other nations, like the arabs or the japanese….
I have to agree with jinthehouse, FOTA want to continue using the F1 name, but I think the only way they could do that is to get CVC (without Bernie) on their side, or presumably have to pay lots of money to CVC to gain the F1 name. And it will have to be lots of money as CVC will use the opportunity to clear their huge debts.
Otherwise, I think FOTA should use this weekends racing to make their position clear, and maybe not bother racing…..and I’d love to see some MAX OUT banners from the fans
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 9:23
“But it was Max who put their names on the list on 12th July!”
DGR-F1 i don’t get this one…. you been back to the future ????
DGR-F1 said on 9th July 2009, 13:13
Oooops, I mean 12 June of course!
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 9:31
I agree about the Banners, but i doubt any of those in the FIA or FOM or WMSC really take notice of these things.
They tend to think they are doing the right thing. They know best they think. And think that we fans don’t know what we are talking about.
All they think about is keeping their position.
And as for F1 fans knowing what they are talking about, there are many on here who definitely know what they are talking about. You DGR-F1 are one of them.
If we could get the likes of the FIA to stop just thinking about themselves and look at the sports they govern then maybe something could be done.
If it was just F1 in trouble then you could maybe blame the teams. But World Rally and British Touring Cars are being messed with too. Is it down to the teams in all these FIA series?
DGR-F1 said on 9th July 2009, 13:26
Thanks for the compliment, scunnyman. I don’t know everything, and enjoy the chance to swap ideas with other knowledgeable fans on Keith’s blog (most of whom know lots more than me!).
You are right about the FIA, I think. They ought to be there to take the scruntineering, safety and timing issues out of the hands of the event organisers to make a level playing field in all the motorsport in Europe. But they appear to be like politicians and just grab more and more power for themselves, and have lost the point of why they are there, and then try to prove why they are there by making silly rule changes for no reason at all.
I think the only way out is for the teams and the fans to leave F1 (presumably next year) and never go back until the Max and Bernie show have gone…..
Bigbadderboom said on 9th July 2009, 8:41
Where do the WMSC stand with this, wasn’t it them that ratified the original “peace” agreement, and I don’t undersatnd how the FOTA teams can be on any published entry list and have less voting rights than teams that haven’t even run a race or even produced a car yet!
Mental Mosley is obviousley trying to position himself, and create something he can exploit, but I can’t see it.
If it’s possible I think FOTA should try to establish a rival series, it may start as a bit make-shift but by the end of 2012 when all contracts end, they will be able to deliver us an F1 class racing series with all recognised F1 teams, and racing under properly considered rules. For those that keep saying it didnt work for IRL/Cart, this is a completley different situation where the real money and power are not split.
If anything is going to be salvaged from this monstrous situation which Max is trying to ringmaster, then CVC need to reign in Bernie, the WMSC need to show some support for FOTA and Max needs to be told not to bother to stand for re-election in October, and all current FIA “Cabinet members” need to be told they cannot join any other candidates election “cabinet”.
This corruption has to stop, there are a lot of smoke screens being thrown about and Max is the most determined to muddy the waters………what is his game?????
mani said on 9th July 2009, 9:03
This is not unexpected, we knew Max and he once again proved that he is a lunatic and can’t be trusted! FOTA, if you had not learned enough last time… you should have by now! just don’t fail us this time.
mani said on 9th July 2009, 9:09
Forgot to mention, Bernie is trying his best on the other side to stand up to the level of his infamous partner! Go on guys, write a book like “10 best ways to become a crap”… it’ll be easy, just publish your personal diaries in the name, that’ll do!
PJA said on 9th July 2009, 9:13
Is Mosley trying to use his old tactic of creating a crisis and then claiming he is the only one capable of solving it so he can stand for re-election again?
The only other conclusions you could reach from the FIA’s actions are that either Mosley wants to destroy F1 and cause maximum damage for everyone as part of some revenge plan, or the jokes are in fact true and he is going mad.
We don’t just need Mosley out we need complete regime change and sadly it seems the only way we would get this is a breakaway series.
Bigbadderboom said on 9th July 2009, 9:23
The problem for Max now is that his tactics are so transparent in respect of whatever he does it is always self motivated, he no longer commands any trust, so how can he be the one to make deals and broker contracts, he is now a joke and must be removed.
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 10:01
The trouble is Bigbadderboom, that yes, Max’s tactic are transparent to us here. But those in the FIA WMSC it is not. They are the tactics that they use too. Those in the Federation and the motor racing clubs around the world all work along the same lines as Max Mosley.
I agree that we all should email FOTA direct and give them our views.
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 9:56
Yes PJA Max is a typical politician and all politicians will create some situation to make them look better than anyone else and be the only one(s) who can save the day.
Let’s hope that FOTA can out politik FIA and Mosley and just leave them behind.
HounslowBusGarage said on 9th July 2009, 9:30
A couple of days ago Max reminded everyone that any rule changes had to be unanimously agreed by all the entrant teams. At that stage, he was obviously planning this sort of ‘disenfrancising moment’ against the FOTA teams as a method of revenge for their opposition to his plans.
I *do* hope FOTA carried on with their breakaway series plans on a ‘just in case’ basis.
Bigbadderboom said on 9th July 2009, 9:32
Isn’t hindsight a wonderfull thing, I just hope, as you do, that FOTA had the foresight!!!
dsob said on 9th July 2009, 17:48
Hounslow says:
Good observation, but it goes back even earlier than that. Now we see why the entry date was moved up this year. Mosley needed the new teams entered before any settlement was reached with FOTA, so he could later have any such settlement negated, using the ploy that changes to Sporting Regs had to be approved by all teams entered.
Once again, Mosley shows himself to be an excellent strategist. Were he a chess player, I’d love a game against him.
persempre said on 9th July 2009, 20:31
He’d only whip your queen.
Ali Adams said on 9th July 2009, 9:57
I just email the info@teamsassociation.org this:
Dear FOTA Teams,
Please for the sake of sanity START your own series now. No compromises with certain MM+BE.
And if must do, then field B-rated or dare I say Z-rated cars in their pathetic series, AND don’t even race, just formation laps and go home. (2005-style).
You need a name for the new series, then call it FormulaFan, oh no that would give free publicity to certain forgotten series.
Seriously take over A1 and stick to that name, A1.
We the real fans love you all and can cope with all the spygates, double-diffusers, etc, BUT we cannot stand hearing these two oldies anymore.
START ANEW OR DIE.
Ali Adams
http://aliadams.blog.com
Jim said on 9th July 2009, 10:37
Brundle for FIA president!!!
persempre said on 9th July 2009, 11:09
Oh if life were as simple as just opting out would make it.
As fans, yes, we’d love to see a FOTA series without all the machinations of FOM (Bernie) & FIA (Max) but we ask an enormous amount of the teams for them to do it. Sheer frustration has pushed them this far already but, if they make the break that only brings other problems.
You will have years of legal battles. Even if ultimately successful going through that will cost the teams incredible amounts of money that they would rather be spending on racing. For some teams it could mean the end.
Then there is the cost of putting together the new series. The racing (rules, circuits etc.) is probably the easiest part.
Even if they can get TV worldwide coverage to produce the same level of transmission as BernieVision gives they would need an equivalent in-house company which would go to every GP, have all the same equipment & expertise etc. If not you would be back to the days of local directors (many of whom had no idea of how to cover F1) following his country’s cars around to the exclusion of the real on track action.
I’m not saying a breakaway cannot or should not happen but we have to be realistic on the enormous problems it raises. They go far beyond what most of us realise.
Bernie & Max would fight them every inch of the way with every weapon available.
While FOTA will appreciate knowing the fans are behind them (& already do) I think we need to realise that it isn’t just a case of saying “We want” as our kids do at Christmas when they don’t understand how much is involved to give them what they want.
scunnyman said on 9th July 2009, 11:22
persempre, i do not think anybody here will believe a breakaway will be simple.
What would be your solutions? status quo? give in and let fia do whatever they please, which they have for numerous years, with or without mosley.
persempre said on 9th July 2009, 11:39
No, scunnyman, the status quo can’t go on. It’s ridiculous.
I was only pointing out that it’s too easy for us, the fans, to complain that FOTA are fools for not breaking away & calling for it to happen when it involves much more than we can begin to imagine & we don’t have to foot the millions it will cost.
We want our cake & eat it but life just isn’t like that.
I was just pointing out some of the many pitfalls that FOTA have to consider.
Bigbadderboom said on 9th July 2009, 11:49
Persempre we are talking about some of the biggest companies in the world with resources and contacts to make this happen.
persempre said on 9th July 2009, 12:05
Yes, I agree & if anyone can do it they can but will any of them want to possibly put their entire companies at risk financially to achieve it?
I’m not saying it can’t be done. When & if FOTA feels it can then they’ll do it. I don’t think we, as fans, can just demand it without all the facts & when we won’t be footing the bill.
I’d willingly put money into a FOTA fighting fund as I’m sure some others would but I bet, as with everything in life, many who shout wouldn’t actually put their money where their mouth is.
Ali Adams said on 9th July 2009, 11:38
The A1 series is struggling and is the perfect oppotunity for FOTA to capitalize on it. Name, infrastructure, etc. All sorted out.
The legal battle can be sorted out by agreeing to Max demans but only field Z-rated cars and do formation laps only (2005 style) until 2012 and that’s all.
CVC will also put thier weight behind them once they remove BE.
Ali Adams said on 9th July 2009, 11:40
Silly me, *their not thier