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> <channel><title>Comments on: Track or car design &#8211; what&#8217;s to blame for F1&#8217;s passing problem? (Poll)</title> <atom:link href="http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/</link> <description>F1 Fanatic - The Formula 1 Blog with F1 news, pictures, video, comment and analysis</description> <lastBuildDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 00:58:09 +0000</lastBuildDate> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <item><title>By: Steve</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-319534</link> <dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:12:39 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-319534</guid> <description>brakes and aero-efficiency...
double the braking distances (smaller carbon brakes or steel brakes)and limit the front and rear wing elements to 1 (and 2 for monaco and hungary)the cars are generating between 200-300% more aero than 15 years ago... they go very fast by themselves but lose significant tenths when behind another car...simplify the front wing and rear wing massively, have no limit as to how low the front wing can be and limit the height of the rear wing</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brakes and aero-efficiency&#8230;<br
/> double the braking distances (smaller carbon brakes or steel brakes)</p><p>and limit the front and rear wing elements to 1 (and 2 for monaco and hungary)</p><p>the cars are generating between 200-300% more aero than 15 years ago&#8230; they go very fast by themselves but lose significant tenths when behind another car&#8230;</p><p>simplify the front wing and rear wing massively, have no limit as to how low the front wing can be and limit the height of the rear wing</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Maksutov</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-304497</link> <dc:creator>Maksutov</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:59:33 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-304497</guid> <description>very good point.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very good point.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Maksutov</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-304496</link> <dc:creator>Maksutov</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:55:45 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-304496</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I consider Webber’s safety stance a bit weird&lt;/blockquote&gt;no</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I consider Webber’s safety stance a bit weird</p></blockquote><p>no</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: pSynrg</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-304365</link> <dc:creator>pSynrg</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:20:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-304365</guid> <description>I had to tick &#039;No Opinion&#039; as there was no option for &quot;I don&#039;t think there&#039;s a problem.&quot;Overtaking in F1 should be rare and exceptional. All the drivers have rare talent and exceptional skills, every now and then an overtake will occur. It&#039;s rarity is what makes it special!F1 has never been any different. Show me any era of F1 when people were overtaking willy nilly.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had to tick &#8216;No Opinion&#8217; as there was no option for &#8220;I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a problem.&#8221;</p><p>Overtaking in F1 should be rare and exceptional. All the drivers have rare talent and exceptional skills, every now and then an overtake will occur. It&#8217;s rarity is what makes it special!</p><p>F1 has never been any different. Show me any era of F1 when people were overtaking willy nilly.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Chaz</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-304358</link> <dc:creator>Chaz</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:00:12 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-304358</guid> <description>The name Tilke makes my blood bubble so I&#039;ll say no more...</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The name Tilke makes my blood bubble so I&#8217;ll say no more&#8230;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: m0tion</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-304039</link> <dc:creator>m0tion</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:06:21 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-304039</guid> <description>I must be sounding like a broken record on this but ... F1 needs a standard wake performance test with a rig that must be able to be fitted temporarily to the back of each car.  Other aero restrictions could even be relaxed a bit because a clean wake is not easy to do whereas now the incentive is to create as dirty a wake as possible.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must be sounding like a broken record on this but &#8230; F1 needs a standard wake performance test with a rig that must be able to be fitted temporarily to the back of each car.  Other aero restrictions could even be relaxed a bit because a clean wake is not easy to do whereas now the incentive is to create as dirty a wake as possible.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Gman</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-304026</link> <dc:creator>Gman</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 04:29:07 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-304026</guid> <description>I also chalk most of it up to car designs. In MotoGP I see some of the same circuits used by F1 producing great races with fantastic overtaking. Now I know kikes and cars are different animals, but still, it can&#039;t be all that different.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also chalk most of it up to car designs. In MotoGP I see some of the same circuits used by F1 producing great races with fantastic overtaking. Now I know kikes and cars are different animals, but still, it can&#8217;t be all that different.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Gman</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-304025</link> <dc:creator>Gman</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 04:26:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-304025</guid> <description>Ehhh....pretty much the few years leading up to Schumi&#039;s arrival, as well as all of 2005....</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ehhh&#8230;.pretty much the few years leading up to Schumi&#8217;s arrival, as well as all of 2005&#8230;.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Harv's</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303981</link> <dc:creator>Harv's</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:01:30 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303981</guid> <description>i agree chimp. dont tighten the aero rules leave them as they are. the fia needs to loosen up the mechanical rules, there is no leway to introduce something new, and if you do the fia will ban it after two races, but the encourage it.at the begining of the year they said &quot;we have tightened up the aero deveolpment so engineers can focus in making mechanical inventions to gain an advantage through mechanical thinking&quot; yet the only development we have seen this year is aero.take mclarens brake steer, worked well, was safe but was banned because other teams didnt have it and it gave mclaren an unfair advantage. now how does that fit in with &quot;we want teams to develop new mechanical technologies&quot;</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i agree chimp. dont tighten the aero rules leave them as they are. the fia needs to loosen up the mechanical rules, there is no leway to introduce something new, and if you do the fia will ban it after two races, but the encourage it.</p><p>at the begining of the year they said &#8220;we have tightened up the aero deveolpment so engineers can focus in making mechanical inventions to gain an advantage through mechanical thinking&#8221; yet the only development we have seen this year is aero.</p><p>take mclarens brake steer, worked well, was safe but was banned because other teams didnt have it and it gave mclaren an unfair advantage. now how does that fit in with &#8220;we want teams to develop new mechanical technologies&#8221;</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Harv's</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303979</link> <dc:creator>Harv's</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:46:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303979</guid> <description>its rather acuarate.. its good for getting a good understanding for what the dials mean and do however you cant get a fell for how a plane moves in real life</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>its rather acuarate.. its good for getting a good understanding for what the dials mean and do however you cant get a fell for how a plane moves in real life</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Vinnie</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-303948</link> <dc:creator>Vinnie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:17:11 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303948</guid> <description>Isn&#039;t it just the drivers that are driving too carefully?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it just the drivers that are driving too carefully?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mahir C</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303909</link> <dc:creator>Mahir C</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:57:34 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303909</guid> <description>And when was it when a podium for Ferrari was a massive deal?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And when was it when a podium for Ferrari was a massive deal?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mahir C</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303907</link> <dc:creator>Mahir C</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:51:41 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303907</guid> <description>Apart from Spa 2000, Hakkinen was rubbish at overtaking. DC was much better than him in that respect.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apart from Spa 2000, Hakkinen was rubbish at overtaking. DC was much better than him in that respect.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Hakka</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303898</link> <dc:creator>Hakka</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:48:16 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303898</guid> <description>&lt;blockquote&gt; and adding four blocks to the corners of the main chassis’ underbody to prevent bottoming&lt;/blockquote&gt;Debris will have the same impact to ground-effect as bottoming, and you can&#039;t stop debris from going under the car with the four blocks you mention.CFD will certainly remove pitch-sensitivity and porpoising problems, but no amount of CFD will solve the fundamental problem with ground-effect dominant cars, which is the suddenness with which it can disappear, leaving the driver completely helpless.It&#039;s a single point of failure. With wings, you can distribute the failure between the front and the back and hence leave some vestiges of downforce even under failure scenarios.&lt;blockquote&gt;(such as the awful endplates and additions we see now)&lt;/blockquote&gt;The very endplates you disparage in F1 help with generating vertices that seal in the low-pressure zone under the car and increase the existing ground-effect in F1 cars.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> and adding four blocks to the corners of the main chassis’ underbody to prevent bottoming</p></blockquote><p>Debris will have the same impact to ground-effect as bottoming, and you can&#8217;t stop debris from going under the car with the four blocks you mention.</p><p>CFD will certainly remove pitch-sensitivity and porpoising problems, but no amount of CFD will solve the fundamental problem with ground-effect dominant cars, which is the suddenness with which it can disappear, leaving the driver completely helpless.</p><p>It&#8217;s a single point of failure. With wings, you can distribute the failure between the front and the back and hence leave some vestiges of downforce even under failure scenarios.</p><blockquote><p>(such as the awful endplates and additions we see now)</p></blockquote><p>The very endplates you disparage in F1 help with generating vertices that seal in the low-pressure zone under the car and increase the existing ground-effect in F1 cars.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Random Chimp</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303882</link> <dc:creator>Random Chimp</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:28:53 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303882</guid> <description>Please DON&#039;T tighten design regulations, just change them. They&#039;re already far too tight, there&#039;s hardly any room for innovation. The cars are basically designed for the teams, all the engineers can do is add little appendages here and there, maybe slightly change the shapes of some surfaces.The whole point of F1 is that it is not a spec series and that there is both competitive driving and engineering.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please DON&#8217;T tighten design regulations, just change them. They&#8217;re already far too tight, there&#8217;s hardly any room for innovation. The cars are basically designed for the teams, all the engineers can do is add little appendages here and there, maybe slightly change the shapes of some surfaces.</p><p>The whole point of F1 is that it is not a spec series and that there is both competitive driving and engineering.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Harv's</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-303868</link> <dc:creator>Harv's</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:22:48 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303868</guid> <description>the reason long straights dont work with these car is the restrictions on the engines, many of times this year have we heard of the cars bounding on the limiters on the engines and the drivers complaining about it.in a slip stream the car buhind experiences a lesser downforce effect and thus the car appears less heavy for the engine so it makes higher speeds reachable while in a slip stream (i hope we all know that). if a car is in a slip stream and is benifiting from it, the affect of the aero is reduced and the engine can rev higher becuase of the lesser aero weight that would usually restrict it if it was driving along in a non turbulent air pocket. if you have gone racing or have played racing sim games you will notice that this affect occurs, when the engine will get up to heigher revs than normal behind another car.so there shouldnt be restrictions on the rev limits for the engines, especially when drivers are complaining about bouncing of the limiter even when the are not even behind another car.this is another reason for KERS failiure because the driver could not use it when bouncing on the limiter while at top speed because the engine would not turn faster with the extra 80 bhp being applied</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the reason long straights dont work with these car is the restrictions on the engines, many of times this year have we heard of the cars bounding on the limiters on the engines and the drivers complaining about it.</p><p>in a slip stream the car buhind experiences a lesser downforce effect and thus the car appears less heavy for the engine so it makes higher speeds reachable while in a slip stream (i hope we all know that). if a car is in a slip stream and is benifiting from it, the affect of the aero is reduced and the engine can rev higher becuase of the lesser aero weight that would usually restrict it if it was driving along in a non turbulent air pocket. if you have gone racing or have played racing sim games you will notice that this affect occurs, when the engine will get up to heigher revs than normal behind another car.</p><p>so there shouldnt be restrictions on the rev limits for the engines, especially when drivers are complaining about bouncing of the limiter even when the are not even behind another car.</p><p>this is another reason for KERS failiure because the driver could not use it when bouncing on the limiter while at top speed because the engine would not turn faster with the extra 80 bhp being applied</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Harv's</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303864</link> <dc:creator>Harv's</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:07:09 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303864</guid> <description>you say we need more places like paul ric, with large runoff? look at abu dhabi! there is more runoff at that place then there is track. and it was a completely boring non eventful race.take albert park and interlagos, not much runn off but good racing, because these tracks were aproaced by a designer who did not come along and say &quot;ok how can i make this challenging and where can i make over taking oportunities&quot;, when track designers designed those tracks the didnt have that idea in there head and they came up with a place to race which was there main intention. look at tilkes tracks, they are way to over thought! he aproaces a track with inspiration from the old nurburgring (he has said that all his tracks have been inspired by the green hell many of times) he analises the topography of the land and then he attempts to model a track onto that before the track even starts to get drawn up in plan.track design is way to developed in my opinion, what was the designer of the nurburgring inspired by when he thought up the track layout? nothing! they just built that track onto the land when they got there, and it is the best track in the world, and it doesnt have any super corners like turn 8.spa for example. look at eau rouge. thats just an old brige that went across a river before the decided to start racing cars over it, now i can garentee that when the bridge designer came along he did not look at it and think how he was going to build the most spectacular corner for racing cars to drive through he just came along and figured out how to get across the river! it just turned out that it is now the best corner in f1. i will put money on it that if tilke was the bridge designer he would have come along and put a chicane right before the bridge, to &quot;try make good racing&quot;ive drifted off topic a bit but i hope you can see my point. the cars have had alot of work, so why not put some work into the tracks, oh and please ban tilke from doing that work</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you say we need more places like paul ric, with large runoff? look at abu dhabi! there is more runoff at that place then there is track. and it was a completely boring non eventful race.</p><p>take albert park and interlagos, not much runn off but good racing, because these tracks were aproaced by a designer who did not come along and say &#8220;ok how can i make this challenging and where can i make over taking oportunities&#8221;, when track designers designed those tracks the didnt have that idea in there head and they came up with a place to race which was there main intention. look at tilkes tracks, they are way to over thought! he aproaces a track with inspiration from the old nurburgring (he has said that all his tracks have been inspired by the green hell many of times) he analises the topography of the land and then he attempts to model a track onto that before the track even starts to get drawn up in plan.</p><p>track design is way to developed in my opinion, what was the designer of the nurburgring inspired by when he thought up the track layout? nothing! they just built that track onto the land when they got there, and it is the best track in the world, and it doesnt have any super corners like turn 8.</p><p>spa for example. look at eau rouge. thats just an old brige that went across a river before the decided to start racing cars over it, now i can garentee that when the bridge designer came along he did not look at it and think how he was going to build the most spectacular corner for racing cars to drive through he just came along and figured out how to get across the river! it just turned out that it is now the best corner in f1. i will put money on it that if tilke was the bridge designer he would have come along and put a chicane right before the bridge, to &#8220;try make good racing&#8221;</p><p>ive drifted off topic a bit but i hope you can see my point. the cars have had alot of work, so why not put some work into the tracks, oh and please ban tilke from doing that work</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: quick_kill</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-303857</link> <dc:creator>quick_kill</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:55:35 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303857</guid> <description>why not limit the buttons of the steering wheel.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why not limit the buttons of the steering wheel.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: AP</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-1/#comment-303843</link> <dc:creator>AP</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:45:28 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303843</guid> <description>you do know Benneton was a back marker for quite some years....
:)
As was Ferrari...a podium was a MASSIVE deal, and a win a dream</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you do know Benneton was a back marker for quite some years&#8230;.<br
/> <img
src='http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br
/> As was Ferrari&#8230;a podium was a MASSIVE deal, and a win a dream</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: macahan</title><link>http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/10/track-or-car-design-whats-to-blame-for-f1s-passing-problem-poll/comment-page-2/#comment-303840</link> <dc:creator>macahan</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:19:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/?p=26998#comment-303840</guid> <description>I strongly believe that it&#039;s mostly car design but there are some track that are at partial blame to. When you can see close wheel to wheel racing and lot of overtaking attempts and maneuvers in GP2 on the same race track the F1 cars cannot or barely manage to overtake. Todays F1 cars rely way to much on down force but are not allowed to utilize down force features as skirts (allowed in GP2), their lap times are only around 10% slower it seems then F1 cars so their overall down force isn&#039;t that bad and yet they have no problems laying close behind another car ..</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I strongly believe that it&#8217;s mostly car design but there are some track that are at partial blame to. When you can see close wheel to wheel racing and lot of overtaking attempts and maneuvers in GP2 on the same race track the F1 cars cannot or barely manage to overtake. Todays F1 cars rely way to much on down force but are not allowed to utilize down force features as skirts (allowed in GP2), their lap times are only around 10% slower it seems then F1 cars so their overall down force isn&#8217;t that bad and yet they have no problems laying close behind another car ..</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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