How Vettel and Webber got on a collision course (Turkish GP team-by-team)

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

The damage to Vettel's right-rear tyre after the crash
The damage to Vettel's right-rear tyre after the crash

How did Sebastian Vettel suddenly get close enough to team mate Mark Webber to make the fateful move than destroyed their hopes of a one-two?

The interactive chart below shows how Vettel suddenly started lapping quicker than Webber in the minutes before the collision.

Rumours claim Red Bull instructed Vettel to turn up his engine shortly before the collision.

Sebastian Vettel Mark Webber
Qualifying position 3 1
Qualifying time comparison (Q3) 1’26.760 (+0.465) 1’26.295
Race position 3
Average race lap 1’32.351 (+0.077) 1’32.274
Laps 39/58 58/58
Pit stops 1 2

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Sebastian Vettel

Zoom in on the interactive chart above (click and drag) to see the laps running up to the lap 41 collision. It’s clear to see that Vettel, despite already being within a second of his team mate, suddenly found a couple of tenths more.

After the race the BBC reported rumours that Vettel was instructed to turn his engine up to get a power boost before the crash – and Webber had received the opposite instruction to turn his engine down at the same time.

It’s understandable that Red Bull would have wanted to help Vettel maintain his advantage over Hamilton. But with Vettel so close to Webber surely they would have realised it would leave Webber vulnerable to being overtaken by his team mate?

The team avoided such a scenario at the same track last year, instructing both their drivers to save fuel and hold position after Vettel had fallen behind Webber.

Vettel started the race from third place after a roll-bar failure in qualifying prevented him from improving his time.

Compare Sebastian Vettel’s form against his team mate in 2010

Mark Webber

Took his third consecutive pole position and held onto his lead at the start – despite coming under considerable pressure from Lewis Hamilton.

While the RB6’s speed through turn eight allowed him to keep Hamilton at bay, he was unable to keep team mate Vettel from getting a run at him.

After the collision Webber pitted for a new front wing but still brought the car home in third place.

Compare Mark Webber’s form against his team mate in 2010

2010 Turkish Grand Prix

Browse all 2010 Turkish Grand Prix articles

165 comments on “How Vettel and Webber got on a collision course (Turkish GP team-by-team)”

  1. If this conspiracy theory is being investigated, then why not investigate Mclaren too. Lewis was told to slow down and then Button passed him, exactly the same situation surely?

    1. Not exactly. Hamilton had been pushing harder than Button all race trying to get close enough to the Redbulls to slipstream them. Button had been saving his tyres in the first stint in an attempt to jump them all in the pitstops. Same thing seemed to happening on the harder tyre. Button probably didn’t have to fuel save as early as Hamilton.

      1. And you could say Webber had been pushing harder at the start of the race to hold off Hamilton?

        1. Possibly, it looked odd both times, spookily simular in someways.

        2. This is what Horner says. He’s blaming Webber by the sounds of things.

          1. Oh dear Christian, I can’t agree with that! Come on Webber, hold your head high and show them what you can do!

          2. RedBullRacer
            30th May 2010, 23:31

            I hate to be a pain but would someone mind summarising what Horner said (or posting a link to a text version)? I’m not in the UK so can’t watch the video on the BBC website.

          3. They instructed Webber to save fuel then vettel to engine up. Tragedy happened. Then why when Webber pit for the second time to changed the damaged front wing then made the quickest lap?? It means he has enough fuel to finish the race. This is something strange. Go Webber! Be a champion in this remaining days of your career.

          4. @RedBullracer,

            The Autosport site usually gives all the post race interviews.

            Here is what Horner said:
            http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84031

          5. kyle, Webber had new tyres with low fuel, and even with low revs he could drive the fastest lap because of greater handling, I beleave.

      2. I think he did need to save fuel, hence why after his attempt, he fell back rapidly, I assume he had more fuel to save by that point.

        But I think it’s only natural for Button to want to get past Hamilton.

        I doubt there is any conspiracy theory, I would expect it just to be an unfortunate coincidence. But this is F1, so anything is possible.

      3. Yeah it is the same thing according to autosport

        “…the post-race debrief on Sunday night revealed that Webber had needed to save fuel and turn his engine down on lap 40 – while Vettel was still able to run at full power.

        Vettel had been able to save fuel when running behind other cars early on, and he had enough extra petrol on board to be able to run one more lap at full power before he too would have had to turn his engine down.”

        So the same thing happened in two teams but there’s uproar about the Red Bull thing and not McLaren. Bit odd. Surely the issue is how wrong the overtake went, not why Vettel was in the position to overtake?

        1. I agree. The reason Vettel was able to overtake is not nearly as important as to ask why he pulled right before he had passed webber.

        2. I think there is more of an uproar about the Red Bull version because of how badly it went and the way both of them drove when fighting.

          Lewis and Jenson fought each other hard, and for longer, but didn’t touch. Big difference really.

          I think if Vettel was given an instruction to get everything out of the car, surely they should have told Webber that Vettel would be much quicker, so holding him off would probably result in either an accident or one of the McLaren’s getting through, which would have required both RBR’s to push then?

          RBR should have told Webber, in a coded message, that Vettel is quicker and has more fuel and that the team needs the 43 points, no matter what order.

          Webber, I think, would have put up a fight anyway, but not pushing Seb onto the dirty line like he did.

          Oh and Seb really shouldn’t have turned towards Mark at 195mph but hey, that’s racing I guess.

          As I said, the main difference was Lewis and Jenson went wheel-to-wheel, in a very good battle, for the lead, and fought each-other very hard but did so without costing the team and themselves points.

          Red Bull, take note.

        3. Katy. “Surely the issue is how wrong the overtake went, not why Vettel was in the position to overtake?
          Well said!

          Interesting take on the issue by Vettel and Helmut Marco (RB Head of Driver Development program) after reviewing the footage,
          Vettel: “I was focussing on my braking point when Mark touched my rear wheel…” No mention of his agressive move to the right that caused the touch!

          Marco: “Vettel was three quarters ahead and had to move right because he knew he could not brake (for the turn)on the dirty side”.
          Surely if a driver finds himself in this situation it means he has not set up a successful move?
          Marco seems unaware that his statement clearly shows that he, at least, is firmly of the opinion that Vettel has the priority in the team and Webber should accept that and get out of his way when required.
          Marco also claimed that Vettel “needed to get past to avoid being passed by Hamilton” and that if Webber had co-operated “we could still have had a 1-2”.
          Again he seems to be unaware that this implies he thought that Vettel could not have held off Lewis but that Webber could!

          There is some excuse for Marco’s blind support for the driver he has nutured through his career but none for the bias in the remarks by Christain Horner. A disappointment coming from one of my favourite team bosses.

      4. But in the press conference Button said he had first been told to fuel save as early as lap 15/16…

        1. @dandanzen Button was likely told that so he could push harder towards the end of the race, which he did, and despite saving fuel early on, he STILL had to save fuel at the end.

          Bit of a fail on the fueling side I think.

          1. …supposing the 2nd fuel saving message was about saving fuel and not about the team freaking out after the 2 of them almost crashed into each other at turn 1.

            :-)

      5. It seems Button had not only been saving his tyres but fuel from a much earlier point in the race than Hamilton.

        So he was into a groove finding the optimum driving with it as Hamilton still tried to find the optimum.
        After this nice show for the viewers, Button was probably told to back of “fuel critical”. And he did apologize on the radio after crossing the finish.

      6. and how come Button was always 1.5 or 2.5 sec. behind hamilton ….

    2. Praveen Titus
      31st May 2010, 17:11

      While most McLaren conspiracy theories seem to suggest favoring Button, I’m confused by the fact that immediately after Button’s overtaking favor was repaid by Hamilton, he suddenly decided to save fuel! He had a successful pass on Lewis and even after Lewis re-took the lead Button could have still made successive attempts. But he decided to slow down and coast home. Why did he SUDDENLY decide to save fuel? Why didn’t it occur to him to save fuel before the encounter?

      It may be strange but I think Button was deliberately asked to slow down to let Lewis win, especially as Lewis was on a fuel save mode. If you saw Button answering during the press conference, he was just giving a very dodgy answer, not going into the details.

      Hamilton indicated he was surprised by Button’s move. I think no one in the team expected Button would make the move, but when he suddenly overtook Hamilton the alarm bells rang. I also think Button was told to give Lewis back the place since he did not defend the inside line at Turn 1 that allowed Hamilton to get past. The team would have then effectively told Button to be a good boy and coast to the finish, which is why you suddenly see him dropping a long way behind Lewis.

      Whatever be the case, it seems team orders will always spoil the on-track action in F1.

      1. It will spoil it as long as teams insist on having 2 top drivers instead of the FIA insisting that we have 6 top teams so that each team can have a top driver and then actually race to the finish.

        It’s getting to the point that I feel there needs to be a rule that basically states that teams are not allowed to communicate with 10 laps to go… or that if a team communicates “save fuel” or “turn down the rpms” that the FIA will look at the amount of gas left in the tank between the two cars and should they find them equal penalize the team by disqualifying the lead car.

        I don’t quite follow how or why they don’t already investigate this sort of thing as everyone seems to be aware that save fuel means don’t race each other. Just check the fuel at the end and see if they are lying!

      2. @praveen Titus

        cant you see that Button making other succesive attempt to overtake LH serves no ones interest and could only end in tears? Didnt you see what happened to Vettel and Webber earlier or you were watching a different race?

        Cant you see that with the Button initial attempt being robustly repelled by Hamilton even to the point that th cars touched, everyone at the McLaren pitwall had their heart in their mouth for fear of the Webber/Vettel crash repeating itself?

        If you think team mates can repeatedly attack each other in F1 then im afraid to say you dont know much about F1 then. In the modern F1, you are probably allow ONE Chance to pass your team mate after which the team usually call off the dogs unless its a direct order from the top to allow your team mate to pass for championship points nearing the tail end of the season.

        1. Praveen Titus
          1st June 2010, 10:45

          Which is exactly what I’m saying – team orders rule. Even if you have a faster car you mustn’t overtake for fear of hitting. The team saves the machinery, but who loses? The fans who are robbed of great action.

          This is what F1 is, I know. But it should change. I know that teams shouldn’t throw away points like the Red Bulls did, but there should be a limit to team orders, some kind of regulating by the governing body, as @SeattleChris opined.

  2. MacademiaNut
    30th May 2010, 16:47

    @TommyB: I think “Save fuel” is a code word for “don’t race”.

    1. i think button understood the need to save fuel but because he didn’t burn as much fuel at the start, he could afford to attack HAM later.

      1. Information is now up. Webber turned the wick down HIMSELF. He needed to save fuel because he had been battling Hamilton and Vettel had saved some behind Hamilton earlier.

        1. yeah, but according to the team, they said both were on same engine setting. confusing, and i hope this conspiracy theory crap about Austrian preferring the Germans does go any further. but the story is out and the damage will be done. to either the team or the stupid press that insinuate such things to begin with.

        2. Yeah he did it HIMSELF after the team TOLD him too …

          The team is not allowed to interfere with the car so of course Webber has to do this himself.

      2. @macademiaNut. hahaha, maybe your right, wanting their favorite driver to win, lol

    2. lol. Its all very confusing.

      Can I make a suggestion to the teams that if your going to use code then you don’t make the code any of these things:

      -“you need to save fuel.”
      -“you have a puncture.”
      -“box this lap.”
      -“your rear wing is about to fall off.”
      -“it’s raining”

      Formula 1 people are very smart. I’m sure if there is actually a need for a code they can come up with something better. …Hell why not make something up. the cars are so complicated that no one knows all the settings on them. how about:

      -“set F-duct to position 2”

      sorry. stupid post. :-) i have typed it now. i think will hit “submit”

      1. LOL
        You are funny!
        Great post

    3. Richard in Hong Kong
      31st May 2010, 9:40

      Exactly right, Macadamia. All this talk of saving fuel is nonsense. It’s the team telling the drivers to take it easy out there…

    4. No, “Save fuel” means just that, but “Fuel situation critical!” means “don’t race”.

  3. In the forum Button said he was saving fuel from much earlier, presumably when Crofty said he was saving his tires. Button had gotten into a better rhythm with this and Hamilton was just settling in, which would explain why Button had an advantage on the straight, but also why Hamilton was surprised as he didnt know Button was used to it.

  4. @MacademiaNut: I agree with you.

    I also suspect — though I may be entirely incorrect — that a not-so-insignificant party/camp inside Red Bull wants Vettel to win.

    1. Its a shame. They have really blown what could have been great copy for the WonderKid.

      Some drives just stick out for me. Alonso being rear gunner for Massa in Australia this year was awesome. Then there was Shumi watching Irvine’s tail in Suzuka some years pas, again, a legendary drive that sticks in my memory.

      How superb would it have been for the WonderKid, if he had used his extra grip and power to protect his team mate from the McLaren attack. The young superstar, taking one for the team, and protecting “the old man”…..

      But nope, they blew it, and now it is PR disaster that will hang around Vettels and RBRs neck for their entire Career and beyond.

      Sigh…..

  5. the button – lewis fight seemed to happen just as a fair few spots of rain appeared on the camera lenses… regardless of who was told what, that could have given the drive jenson needed onto the straight and as he admitted why wouldn’t he have a go?

    1. and back to the actual article, must add I do not want to be mark webber this evening! I feel it was Vettel’s fault but Mark is about to get the stick for it. great shame.

  6. C’mon man….after looking at the video thousand times….i think Mark was wrong….look at the onboard camera
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIc-A–iNU

    1. Are you serious? What good is the inside camera view for that incident? Vettel came alongside Webber, webber squeezed him going towards the corner and then vettel inexplicably pulled to the right and hit webber! How is that webbers fault. I am certainly no webber fan but I do feel sorry for him today.

      1. @Lee: agree with you. So sad for webber…

  7. yes its clear red bull want to back vettel. would be a shame to yet again see a team backing the favoured nationality driver.

    but mclaren drivers were clearly also told to turn it down. when there was no real need to. which lost button the race for sure. but it seemed lewis was the one not happy. if i was Jenson id be furious if there was aload of litres left in his mclaren at the end.

    Both teams trying silly games. but as proven in the past(and today) it will back fire.

    1. errr… How do you know that there was no need to turn it down??? What if Lewis was indeed running low on fuel? And even if Button had no fuel problem, it doesn’t mean he should use it to push his teammate into a retirement running out of fuel. If he want to beat Lewis, a better quali lap would help!

      1. …or if he’d been able to make his attack on Hamilton stick for good, which he wasn’t, so I don’t see who but himself Button should be furious with.

      2. If Button had no fuel problem then he should ba allowed to race his teammate. And if Hamilton was at risk of running out of fuel and couldn’t race, then he simply should let his teammate overtake him. Keeping Button behind because Hamilton had a fuel problem is unacceptable, team orders at their worst

  8. I personally think people are discussing the wrong controversy. The Webber-Vettel incident is quite clearly Vettels fault and is only a talking point because they are team mates.

    The bigger story for me is the politics surrounding the incident. Horner somehow blaming Webber for the accident and then the stories of Vettel being told to turn his engine up and Webber being told to turn his down. Also hearing the Austrian backers of Red Bull would rather see Vettel win than Webber.

    I think whats going on behind closed doors is the real talking point here.

    1. yes this is getting interesting. autosport have the story atm:

      http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050

      webber told to save fuel..

      1. That doesn’t say Webber was TOLD to save fuel, just that he was in that engine mode. Doesn’t say it was a team decision, doesn’t say if it was Webber’s decision.

        1. You know it must be a conspiracy! It’s not like Webber may have had a limited amount of fuel to finish the race on and he was playing it safe rather than get caught out at the end like Massa did in Barcelona last year!

          …. or….. It is just how the brown stuff hit the fan, and people are making a big deal out of it for no reason… Perhaps if Schumacher had got in trouble or avoided getting in trouble for something this wouldn’t be the focus point.

        2. If webber was either told or decided to save fuel or wasn’t fast enough, i don’t understand why he didn’t just say that in the first place…
          and as opposed to suggesting otherwise by telling the journalist to “dig deeper somewhere else”

      2. what is interesting in the autosport article is the following comments:

        “He [Vettel] was under a lot of pressure from Hamilton behind, which got him into a position to pass Mark. Our priority at that stage is that we want to win the race. Even if the cars wanted to change position we were still first and second, and it is still 43 points for the team and both drivers were pulling away from McLaren in the championship.”

        To me that suggests overall that the team (or Horner) wanted Vettel in front of Webber. The reason of course being so that they could secure a win. The bottom line is he admitted his preference regarding the situation.

    2. I think you are right Zahir. In fact, i am so dissapointed with Horner, i sent a pointless emial that i am sure will get deleted straight away to their feedback adress :)

    3. There is more going on and I’d identify some of Webber’s comments after Quali and look to some facts in Monaco as well.

      First it is known that within Red Bull if you have the lead you come in to pit before the other car, in both Monaco and at Turkey this did not happen.

      Second, Webber was supposed to be the second car out of the garage for 1uali this weekend, as he said in the post quali press conference, yet Vettel somehow managed to have the opportunity to start second.

      There are a few too many coincidences surrounding this now, RB are clearly favouring Vettel over Webber. Horner identified Malaysia where Webber gave too much room for Vettel, well why would Webber do that again? He is racing for a championship, is always fair and tough, made Vettel work for the overtake and got crashed into!

  9. All good analysis, but can we have a lap time comparison for Button and Hamilton please?

    I want to know whether when Lewis started “saving fuel” and slowing up, whether Button did anything at all, except attack! Cheers

  10. RBR deserved it totally if that’s true!

  11. On the general issue, of whether there’s favouritism at Red Bull. I’m not sure, but I have noticed this season that regardless of where the two drivers are on track, Vettel always pits first. This is an advantage, because you get an extra lap on fresh tyres to try and leapfrog whoever is ahead of you. Under normal circumstances you would expect that advantage to be given to whichever driver was ahead anyway, but at Red Bull this season I believe the advantage has always been given to Vettel. Strange….

    1. The only thing I can see that stands out is that Horner publicly blames Webber yet it is pretty clear that vettel turned into him. Horner could easily have said it was 50/50 but chose to blame webber.

  12. patrick(uk)
    30th May 2010, 18:04

    WHY DID VETEL PIT EARLY? BEFORE WEBER?

    1. To try to jump Hamilton for second, which he did. Meanwhile, Red Bull only pulled Webber in when Hamilton made his stop to cover the McLaren off.

      Swap the order of the pitstops and the likely outcome would have been Webber, Hamilton, Vettel rather than Webber, Vettel, Hamilton.

    2. It actually gained Vettel a lot to stop first.

      I was surprised that Brundle claimed that pitting later would have a benefit. It’s usually the one who pits first who picks up a second.

      In this case the same. Although Hamilton also lost 2 seconds with his troubled stop.

  13. I don’t think their is any favoritism inside the Red Bull camp.

    It is pretty clear that Vettel saved fuel without losing too much time while on the softer tyres. Thus, he had more power than Webber for that 1 lap.

    Clearly, that 1 extra lap was enough for him to overtake Webber. But unfortunately, he couldn’t make a clean move and paid the price.

    Webber paid the price too. But honestly, is he had gone to the right and get the racing line before Vettel he would have regained P1. Why he chose not to move to the right, we will never know. He made a mistake, and paid the price too :). Please no conspiracy theories

    1. Perhaps because Webber moved to the outside of the corner in Malaysia in similar circumstances and lost the place to Vettel.

      The fact is, Vettel moved across and drove into Webber, who was just defending his position.

      There is no argument that Webber should let Vettel through because they are team-mates, because Button and Hamilton went wheel to wheel and scooped a 1-2. It’s down to the inferior racecraft of Vettel.

      1. Actually, there IS an argument that Webber shouldn’t let Vettel through: evidently, he wants to win too. I think that’s actually one of the reasons they hired him.

        Sure, he could have given Seb a bit more room, but then there was another line on the track where there was plenty of room. The outside. Coming up the inside and trying to bully position just before brakes was arrogant, dangerous and poorly executed.

        And the comments coming out of the RB camp are all the more shocking for how clear-cut the incident was.

  14. We are not blind or stupid but if Martin Whitmarsh keeping doing this helping Button over Hamilton or favoring Button Over Hamilton then i think it’s time Hamilton to look for find another team next year, because what we have seen today is not good. i wonder why McLaren trying to handicap Lewis to help Jensen, again…and why was Lewis told to slow down and conserve fuel, because to give a chance allowing Jensen to get close to him and attack , and when that didn’t work out then Jensen is told to conserve fuel!? what a joke.
    i don’t like this and really make me crazy, we all remember China and Singapore. AND NOW IT’S REALLY STINKING MCLAREN SIDE

    1. …. This is ridiculous…

    2. Oh come on, Vettel got a run on Webber, just as Button had a run on Hamilton, in both cases they should be entitled to have a go. Are you telling me that in another race, Button leading, Hamilton spots an oppotunity to win the Grand Prix, Lewis wouldnt try to sneak past?

      What was wrong with Vettels move is the irresponisble turn in. At best it would have been accidental, and he should have looked before turning.

      At worst it was cynical and personally, Im aghast at the way Horner has somehow found Webber guilty. He left a Red Bull sized gap and no more for Vettel. Racing that is hard but fair. And yet hes to blame. Shame on you, Horner, You lost a lot of respect in this, more than either driver.

    3. Don’t be so stupid. You are making something out of nothing.

    4. This is also spam, since this is supposed to be about Red Bull and I could’ve sworn you posted this in another thread.

  15. patrick(uk)
    30th May 2010, 18:38

    i think martin and mclaren think that if Button HAD WON and Hamilton coming second they would be leading both car and driver championships now ..but THEY FORGOT that HAMILTON is fighter and wants his fisrt win soonest once the redbulls had taken themselvs out os wiining this race.

    1. They forgot nothing. What you saw was two very very good racing drivers trying to take a win in the correct fashion (unlike vettel). Maclaren clearly do not favour either driver at this stage of the championship. Hamilton only needs a couple of wins to be in contention for the title due to the way the points work this year.

  16. At this stage of the season I really do not believe either Mclaren or Red Bull are favouring either driver. Race engineers have their own drivers best interests at heart. We are not privy to the telemetry info they are recieving and a call to save fuel or adjust mixtures can be for all sorts of reasons.

    I think people are reading far too much into this.

    The Red Bull drivers were both in the wrong today. They are team mates and lost their team a whole heap of points. Had it been team on team we may have just put this down to a racing incident however, as it was teamates they were foolish and both deserve a reprimand from the team.

  17. Webber is a gentleman, Vettel is a nice guy. Sad to see that it has been made too poltical by media, fans and everybody.

    Same with mclaren too. Simple team decisions are getting politicized.

    This is racing. And drivers will fight hard. Why make so many assumptions if each action.

    TMax

  18. maestrointhesky
    30th May 2010, 21:30

    Vettel’s fault – 100%! He tried a very similar thing down the pit lane with Hamilton at Shanghai where he suggested Hamilton tried to ‘touch’ him. A very different result when you try it at 190mph though! He needs to rein his neck generally but more to the point, he should have driven within the space Webber allowed him. I’ve never been a big Webber fan, and yes, he perhaps could have yielded to Vettel knowing that he had to save fuel earlier which would have enabled the team to score a potential maximum. That is a not in a race drivers’ instinct and hats off to Webber, he was going to make the pass as difficult as possible. Had he managed to keep Vettel behind for that lap they would have both been in that ‘fuel saving’ mode and the tactic could have paid off the with a Webber win. The fact remains, Vettel tried to drive into space that wasn’t there and the stewards should reprimand him for causing an accident!

  19. I might be wrong, but I’d swear Vettel’s abrupt move to the right occured an exact milisecond after it became clear that that pass-attempt of his WON’T succeed.

    By all means, it was most probably a moment of psychological weakness (a momentary failure to execute a succesful pass maneuver causing a so-called ‘cracking under pressure’ – which is not something new in F-1, especially with less experienced / very talented superlicense-holders such as Vettel.

    The ethical aspects of such a move are falling under the chapter ‘I sink, so you’ll sink too’, but IMO in 99.99% of the cases it is not intentional, but a momentary lapse of reason, under pressure.
    A totally irrational moment, which some particular drivers have been experiencing rather often,
    as we all know.

    Anyway, a clear minus in Vettel’s proffessional superlicense-holder’s biography.

    It has been said before :

    being a superlicense-holder is one thing.
    Being an F1-driver is something else.

    1. Alan (Evo)
      31st May 2010, 1:55

      Everyone seems to have missed something Hamilton said (during the BBC footage) after the race;

      Shortly after the first round of pit stops when Vettel got ahead of Hamilton and LH was closing on SV about to make a move on him. LH came up along SV to try and slipstream him and he SV did the exact same thing to Lewis – a move to the right when there was no need for him to do so, but Lewis backed off from it????

    2. +1

      fairest comment I’ve read on this yet.

  20. It seems Vettel is being favoured in my view,
    1. in qualifing Webber should have been 2nd this race not Vettel
    2. Vettel pitted before Webber (allowed/helped him to pass Hamilton, this happened last race as well, saving the potential pass) and catch up to Webber
    3. this fuel saving issue

  21. The plot thickens…everything points to that Red Bull is putting the blame on Webber for this one, contrary to what “everybody” here, BBC crew Couldhard + Whitmarsh says.

    From the official website nonetheless:
    http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2010/5/10855.html

    Q: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said he didn’t believe it was Vettel’s fault. Is this the official opinion of the team?
    HM: Well, in the situation Sebastian was in, he had no other choice than to act the way he did.

    Q: Is it true that the team gave instructions to Mark Webber’s race engineer to let Sebastian Vettel pass because otherwise Lewis (Hamilton)would be able to overtake?
    HM: That is not correct, because that would mean a team order. We informed Mark about the situation and it is for the driver to decide. The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton.

    Q: That suggests that one of the two should have given way to the other…
    HM: Yes. (no doubt its Webber)

    Q: And you will discuss with them who that should have been …
    HM: Yes. (another reason Webber looked like crying and Vettel was cuddly with the team? Webber has it coming…)

  22. I am agree with Horner. It’s Webber to be blame for this accident. But I wish to add my point of view for this situation:
    Webber – Fuel Save Mode
    Vettel – Brain Save Mode

    1. Your kidding me. Webber did not do a thing wrong. Vetell cut accross trying to scare webber off the road. Didn’t work and its webbers fault.

      Webber held his line, didn’t need to or have to make it easy. Vettel had to slow down and turn around. Webber was never going to touch him. Vettel lost it and cost Redbull the most and his chances of a title. Redbull want vettel to win, but the reality is he is not consistent and prone to mistakes. Done it in the past and will continue to do it in the future.

  23. It doesn’t look good for Mark to stay with RBR and maybe in F1. RBR wanted to give the championship to Vettel today. This is worse than the Schumacher and Barrichello incident because it smacks of slithering underhandedness, all this coded this and that and “media management” makes it a real turn off for the sport.

    Same applies with Hamilton and Button. Button was faster and had been all weekend over Hamilton, no doubt about it. He also had his ride height lower and was managing his tyres standing off in 4th whereas Hamilton was nibbling in the dirty air and running harder in T8 than he would have if he wasn’t always get the run down to T12. At least McLaren had the risk management excuse though, and with Hamilton behind in the championship Button could insist on a square up later in the same circumstances.

    The Austrians want this Vettel franchise thing so much they could throw a championship for it. So far all they have created is a little pratt.

    This is Webber’s shot at the championship and he can’t throw it for them. If they sack him he can live a life with his head held high. It is a sad day for all the drivers drivers.

    1. David Johnson
      31st May 2010, 8:21

      I think M0tion has uncovered the real F1 scandal…”Button was faster and had been all weekend over Hamilton”, yet Hamilton was allowed to start further up the grid !! How can this be fair ?! :)

      1. That was so funny.
        :-)

  24. And I forgot, Vettel apparently didn’t move in the braking zone according to the stewards. Maybe Bernie will give Vettel another special lift home in his jet to make him feel beter.

    1. I remember they gave Webber a drive through for tapping into Barrichello in 2009 after the start. Pretty similar incident. Although in that case both drivers were able to continue.

      That wasn’t in the braking zone either.

      Neither was Hamiltons supposed weaving …

      Neither was Vettel when he got reprimanded for pushing Hamilton off the fast lane …

  25. I really hope Mark stands up for himself here. He’s leading the Champ for a reason and if vettel wants to pass it’s HIS job to do so cleanly, not Mark’s to make it easy for him. For once Webber had the luck on his side, if you can call it that, and managed to salvage 3rd. I hope he uses this as inspiration to keep pushing & winning! Lets not forget this isn’t the 1st time vettel has taken webber out!

  26. I’m only drinking MONSTER from mow on :)

  27. This is Racing, it was a great race! 4 cars within 3 seconds after the half race :-) There should be clear rules, what the drivers are allowed to do and what not! Expensive incident for RBR Renault…

  28. Im livid at this whole situation. Rapu, i noticed the same thing as you – even though Webber is out in front, they pit Vettel first. Its rubbish. What team does that?

    Ill be the first to admit – Vettel has probably another 12 – 15 years in him and is the future. Webber doesn’t – that doesn’t mean though, drop everything when Vettel cries. Webber was leading for F***s sake. *getting really steamed up*. Leading the darn race.

    Against every adversity thus far, Webber – IMO – has raised to the occasion. Vettel is cracking under the pressure and cant handle it. Getting beaten by the old dog and comprehensively too.

    So much for team orders. What a Joke. Vettel is clearly being given the best chance at a WDC. I met him in Australia this year and really admired him. But after the way he conducted himself, especially the hand gesture after the spin, i dont anymore. Im more annoyed at him.

    Lets not forget Fuji eh? When Vettel ran up the back end of Webber to end his race! Vettel cant, nor wont he, see past his own nose.

    Sad really and annoying because Mark has endured sooooo much to get where he is right now.

  29. I wonder what would have happened if Vettel hadn’t moved and Webber would have held his line… They probably would have both got overtaken by Hamilton on the right.

    Webber should have moved to the right for sure, he can’t squeeze his team mate like that, that is crazy. And the line he had wasn’t the racing line, would he have moved to the right sundenly at the end of the straight?

    Vettel shouldn’t have moved like that to the right, but at the same time couldn’t stay there so tightly, must be scary at that speed to be so close to the grass, i think he freaked out a bit and moved right.

    Maybe Webber didn’t cause the accident , but he sure created an ugly situation !

    1. Webber squeezed Vettel? The race I watched showed Webber driving in a straight line and Vettel going for an improbable overtaking maneuver, subsequently turning into Webber. It’s like Vettel thought he was Schumacher and the race was Jerez ’97.

    2. There was plenty space for Webber to still move back to the right.

      1. I mean “road” there was no hurry to move to the right just yet.

  30. civicspoon
    31st May 2010, 4:13

    frm my perspective, both drivers have equal chance to win.as mention by Horner, both have equal cars. the team should acknowledge webber that vettel is gaining lap times.and with this info webber should yield. webber shouldn’t give hard time for his team mate. like mclaren both boys they fought each other with space avoid any collision. thats professional sportsman. webber have to face it. vettel is gaining. its not the last lap. if webber thinks his fast so he could catch up vettel again with 20 remaining laps. for vettel reaction to turn right, if turn left he could damage his car and hamilton could overpass him. if look in replay, webber has time to yield, but maybe the feeling of pressure to get the most time is already overpowered him.

  31. OK. The title of the article is “How Vettel and Webber got on a collison course”… how about answering the freaking quesrtion. Love the website, but one of your worst posts ever. Moronic even.

  32. Hi,
    From my perspective Webber did nothing wrong at all and Vettel drove into him while trying to go up the inside. I don’t think he could have stopped and made the turn anyway on the dirty line in. He should have waited until he could pass cleanly, but he doesn’t seem to know how to do that yet….. I’m bitterly disappointed for Mark as he could have possibly won, or come 2nd anyway. If Mr Horner thinks Mark caused it he must be blind.

  33. At the start of lap 40, it now seems that Webber had been instructed by his engineer to reprogram his engine management to save fuel. That in turn meant a slightly slower speed on the back straight to the final sequence of corners.

    Behind him Vettel, who had conserved his fuel running in Webber’s slipstream, seized his chance. As Red Bull team boss Christian Horner later explained, it was probably the young German’s only chance of victory.

    “He had managed to save an extra kilogramme of fuel” Horner told Autosport magazine. “Effectively he had one more lap of the optimum engine mode, but we couldn’t back him off because he was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton behind.”

    The rest, as they say, is history.

    1. This are not my words!!

    2. Yeah it’s sad. They masterminded that first Vettel would get ahead of Webber and then they would slow down Vettel. Let Webber deal with Hamilton.

      Serves them right that Vettel blew it.

      Guess they knew that Vettel wouldn’t be able to defend his position. Odd that they didn’t know that Vettel is incredibly poor at overtaking too.

  34. F1 Monitor
    31st May 2010, 6:12

    Seb initiates what has to be a fraught move at that speed, given all that’s riding on it (race lead, championship lead, intra-team lead) and is the one who needs to be extra-careful as he is ‘attacking’ his team-mate for top (&top dog) position. And Mark has built up a professional superiority in qualy and recent racing to deserve respect as leading the team’s push at this point.

    Aware Mark’s turned down his engine that lap and he has that one in the chamber, Seb sends one up the inside too late to be able to make it stick so tries to squeeze Mark out wider into the turn – Mark holds his racing line while super-professionally leaving Seb enough space on the track to make the corner. Mark’s driving was defensive so as to make Seb slow more by being off-line to take the turn, enabling Mark to pull out and carry more apex & speed on exit so he had a good chance of re-taking him at the next turn.

    Seb couldn’t appreciate reality at the critical moment – he couldn’t complete the move there yet didn’t want to lose out on exit speed and compromise his next corner. Rejection of reality meant Seb was frustrated & tried to relocate Mark on the track so he could have racing line over the race-leader, and tears for all. It’s one thing to throw the car in there, a different matter pulling off the whole move; it was never going to work in that corner at that point in that way with Mark driving none other than predictably (read: professionally).

    And Red Bull need to have an hard think, not about their drivers as much as the idea they would knowingly advantage one team-mate via engine-consumption settings when Seb only had that fuel advantage from running slower, performing lesser on track, and even let him have a go at Mark who has only used more fuel by driving faster in the lead…doh!

    Mark would prefer to be 14pts ahead of Jenson if only 5 ahead of Seb, rather than just 5 ahead of Jenson. Given his position for the team, hard to ascribe any fault to Mark for what was a perilous move by Seb – why on earth would Mark ‘get out of the way?’ – he might as well get out of F1. Not so sure about Seb being another Schumi, more like another Villeneuve (J) with last-ditch moves, hang the consequences. Schumi (in the 2000’s) would have thought it through in advance and known the pull-back points. This year Schumi has been most dignified and professional in rejecting ego-traps, obviously competitive (eg final turn Monaco), and steadily regaining optimal ‘competence’ whilst guiding development of the Mercedes.

    1. David Johnson
      31st May 2010, 7:55

      Thank you…summed up perfectly..

      1. A well written comment

    2. I agree 100%, Vettel had enough room, see the white line in the replay. They both could have cornered together, even though Vettel was slightly ahead on impact he would have had to brake early for the corner, being on the dirty line and inside of the corner. If not he may have taken Webber out as they cornered if he braked too late.

  35. Question: For argument sake, if it had been Schumacher instead of Webber, and Vettel drove into Schumi, wouldn’t the stewards penalize Vettel? From thee replays, it sure looks as though Weber holds his line, which he has every right to do. If it had been Hamilton attempting a pass on Weber, and Hamilton turned into Webber–don’t you think there would be a penalty? What if it was Kobayashi turning into Webber? I am actually a fan of Vettel, not so much Webber, but absent any team orders, Vettel just screwed up — again. RBR’s response is shameful. They are really cuddling Vettel. Sure Webber’s in the twilight of his career, but they are likely going to reap what they sow, if they continue to cuddle him, will he ever learn from his mistakes?

  36. Jenson saved fuel (and tyres) running running a little further back for some time rather than sliding about in wakes. Jenson and Seb’s engineers may also have started them both with a few extra kg’s of fuel. Jenson and Seb may therefore have had more available when they tried to pass others.

    1. You got it wrong mate, you can also save fuel while in the slip stream of a leading car.

      And this save fuel stuff is nonsense, if you save fuel to attack later it means you drop back, if you have to make that gap up, it means you lose the fuel you saved, at least a good portion of it.

      1. Both Button and Vettel gained 2 or 3 seconds on their pitstops. They might very well have saved some fuel running slower during their first stint. They would have made up for hat loss just by their pitstops.

  37. As I see it Webber has a fatal flaw…

    Despite all the other issues in this situation, Webber could have protected himself from the incident by moving over for Seb. He had been passed, and he had lost the inside line for the corner coming up. So he only had one choice : Start looking ahead to see how he could perhaps get his lost position back.

    If you look at the Hamilton and Button incident, ignoring the rights and wrongs of it, they both raced hard and neither driver put the other drivers race at risk.

    Likewise with Kimi and Hamilton last year. They raced hard, neither put either driver’s race at risk. Ultimately Kimi crashed through his own fault / bad luck.

    Webber is a great leader *from the front*, like Massa. But put him under pressure and the red mist comes down and he gets belligerent, and will quite happily risk his own and the other drivers race.

    We’ve seen it time and time again this year. Eddie Jordan even spoke to him about it before this race with reference to incidents earlier this year. It was clear from Webber’s reply that he still has not come to terms with that internal issue, which is 100% a failing in his psyche.

    1. Mate, were you even watching the same incident as the rest of us?

      1. Yep. And guess what. I am neither a fan of Webber or Vettel.
        I just call it how it is.

        What makes me laugh is the blind adoration for drivers that people here allow to cloud their judgement.

        By the way, I’ve watched both the Vettel – Webber, and the Hamilton – Button incidents several times today when gauging all the comments here.

        Have you? Or are you just judging things from your heart?

    2. Fixed that for ya:

      “Vettel is a great leader *from the front*, like Massa. But put him under pressure and the red mist comes down and he gets belligerent, and will quite happily risk his own and the other drivers race.”

      Look at all the incidents where Vettel is making threatening pushes against his opponents.

      He pulled the same stunt on Hamilton as Hamilton was passing him going into the same corner. Luckily Hamilton was able to avoid a crash, but still, that’s not fair racing on Vettel’s part.

      He pushed Button off the track and into the pitlane exit in Valencia 2009. He pushed Hamilton off the fastlane (for which he got reprimanded)

      Vettel is just not a very fair racer.

      1. “fair racer” ?

        You are talking about the Piranha Club, right?

      2. What is different about all the incidents you cite, and the Webber – Vettel incident is that yet again Webber threw a race away by being stubborn and not making a wise call. How many crashes this year (and in previous years) has he been involved in with different drivers.

        Why do you think Eddie Jordan pressed him on it in his pre-race interview with Webber…. That was *before* this race…. Think about that for a moment.

        Webber had lost the place. But even so he was willing to bin the entire race for his entire team, rather than move over.

        Vettel races hard. Webber is willing to crash to keep a line.

        Who is more foolish?

        1. Well Vettel is the one who rammed into Webber, so in this case obviously Vettel was the foolish one.

          Sure in Australia Webber was being a bit foolish, but he got mistreated by the team in that case too. Every pit stop is done in favour of Vettel! If they hadn’t waited for ever to pit Vettel, Webber could have stayed in front (instead they dropped him to P6) and he never had to attempt to overtake cars.

          Both Vettel and Webber are pretty poor at overtaking. Webber less so than Vettel, but still. The team shouldn’t have let Webber down so much in Australia.

          As Eddie Jordan said, obviously Red Bull wanted Vettel to get past Webber. They (possibly) told Vettel to hurry and they certainly told Webber to slow down.

          So Webber hardly threw away anything. At best he would have gotten P2. To bet P3 or P2 on winning the race, I would take fighting for the race win every time.

  38. Adrianrelward
    31st May 2010, 7:17

    Would it not be great if team raido was jammed and the drivers did the driving.Pitboard comunications only PUT THE FUN BACK

  39. Emil……….Drop back 1.5 to 2 sec’s into clearer air, match lap times while conserving fuel and tyres by being smooth. Close up too much and you slide and hit the rev limiter turn after turn trying to keep close enough to draft past on the straight.

  40. If you look closely at the video Vettel as he comes up behind Webber actually jinks firstly to the right and then suddenly goes left to overtake Webber .
    I think Webber actually thought he was coming down his right side at first as you notice a slight left hand down by Webber at the same time Vettel goes left.
    This puts Webber about a metre further left as Vettel comes down his left side.
    Vettel still has room but cuts right to early.
    If he had passed Webber on the right he would have had track position holding Webber left and offline for the next left hander.
    Cause is Vettels impatience.

    Vetels next chassis to be named Veer Right Vicki

    1. How do you hold someone “offline” by going round the outside of them on a corner?

      Perhaps I watched a different race?

      1. Yes I think Vettel wishes he had that millisecond back when he decided to go to the left of Mark instead of the right. The right side offered controlling the racing line(and the opening was definitely there)–he and Mark would both have clean braking(entire right side was clean due to drivers trying different ways of braking into 12 with those nasty pavement undulations)and he might have prevailed in a pass.

        Coulda, shoulda, woulda… That incident was definitely THE pivotal moment of the season for Red Bull, and maybe that is why I can’t stop thinking about it!

        And then the McLaren guys did the same exact thing! The only reason that didn’t come to tears was because Jenson relented in turn 1 as Lewis forced him off the track. Jenson should have timed his turn 14 exit better as that is where Lewis really got the position back…

        Young lions vs old lions, what can you do? :) Unfortunately, trying to read into the comments from Red Bull, it looks like Mark might get neutered… :( I hope not.

        1. Can someone, anyone, explain to me how being on the outside of Webber (and not fully past him) going into the first left hander of that complex, would have allowed him to control the racing line?

          Please.

          If Vettel was fully past Webber, sure he could have turned in, infront of Webber. But they would have arrived at the corner side by side and Webber could have controlled the breaking and turn in point in this particular situation.

          Its quite different from the other incidents that people are comparing it to IMO.

          1. Button/Hamilton into was the same incident except it was properly played by going to the right!

            Vettel would been on the inside of Webber for thirteen, and could have payed it exactly as Jenson did to get past Hamilton.

          2. I think we covered this in our discussion on the next page.

            Just for clarity for others, I do understand what you say…

            In my opinion, and it is just that – my opinion, I don’t think Vettel would have been sufficiently past Webber to make that move work. :)

      2. Did you see Button pulling that exact move on Hamilton? It was only a few laps later …

  41. For that fast flowing left hander onto the next right you have to be almost in the middle of the track at the place where thay made contact. If Vettel had gone right he could have held Webber further left of the ideal racing line for the left hander and then had the inside line for the next right. Look at Hamiltons line in the video of the incident, he is considerably further right than both Webber and Vettel when he gets to where they initially hit,and no he’s not taking any avoidance.

    1. You are completely missing the point that being on the inside going into the left hander allows you to hold a driver over onto the right, dirty side of the track and easily claim the line you need through the corner. You choose the breaking and turn in point. You don’t have that control on the outside.

      If Vettel had gone right around Webber he would have to have been considerably further ahead of Webber by the left hand turn in order to chop his nose off and keep the advantage.

      Vettel made the right choise of side to pass on bearing in mind he had one lap to make the move before he turned his wick down.

      The driver on the inside of a corner almost *always* has the whip hand.

      1. Did you miss not 10 laps later when Jenson successfully passed Lewis on the right going into 12? In the case of your almost *always*, I think the triple chicane of 12, 13, and 14 at Istanbull does not apply.

        Vettel had the momentum, I think he lost the extra speed lifting when he realized he was in real trouble for braking into 12. He would not have lost that extra speed on the right.

        1. My point is exactly the difference between the positions of the cars relatively in the two manoeuvres.

          It is obviously all conjecture at this point. We will never know.

          But you touch on it yourself in your own reply..

          “Vettel had the momentum, I think he lost the extra speed lifting when he realized he was in real trouble for braking into 12.”

          So did he really have the required momentum to make it stick, or not?
          I think not. Not from the outside.

          My contention is that Vettel would not have been sufficiently past Webber to assert control and turn in on that corner. All Webber had to do then was turn in later and Vettel would have been left high and dry on the outside, and had to follow Webber through the complex.

          Sure it *could* have gone either way. Depending on how we project forward. And it is just that, our own personal perceptions.

          But bear in mind also that in Jensen’s case he had time to plan and line up the pass. In Vettel’s case he was reacting to a suddenly much slower Webber, and a one lap window where he had to make a move stick.

          1. Yes it is all speculation…

            I think Jenson’s chance on Lewis came as a surprise to himself, if you watch that in replay, he was not that close out of 8. I was spitting bits of rain on that area of the track, maybe Lewis was being cautious into that 9/10 chicane and that gave Button his shot. Doesn’t take much caution to give up 3 tenths!

            Anyways, highly entertaining race.

          2. We can certainly agree on one thing!

            It was a “highly entertaining race”. :)

  42. Clearly Webber simply held his line, Vettel’s move was VERY sudden – perhaps Webber should have predicted it – I doubt he had time enough to avoid it.

    Clearly, Vettel was in the wrong.

    Hamilton was in a position to see it all, and clearly (and surprisingly) stated his opinion.

  43. For me, Webber clearly drove predictibly and professionaly, defending the inside line to the corner. Vettel chose to go for the small gap, rather than around the outside (like Button did to Hamilton later), and Mark gave him enough room to keep it safe. It looked like Vettel then lost control on a bump or something, because the car was a little bit out of shape, and then he turned into Webber.

    100% Vettel this one… and Horner, Marko and Mateschitz inability to at least offer this as a “Racing Incident” and instead favour Vettel as the victim disgusts me.

    Completely against RBR for the Constructors, and give Mark complete support for the Drivers. Though, ultimately I want McLaren to achieve both :-)

    1. I thought Horner said both drivers were equally at fault…

      1. as a person in charge of the team that would be the most sensible thing to say.

        1. True. My point was that Horner did not say that Vettel was a victim, as the OP suggests. Because he wasn’t.

          1. Perhaps not, but Helmut certainly suggests as much.

  44. I don’t really care how or why Vettel was there, the issue is why that move went so wrong.

    In Brazil 2009 there was the shutn between Sutil and Trulli. Sutil gave an overoptimistic Trulli no room, he went over the kerbs and garss and lost it. Sutil didn’t have to give the room, Trulli didn’t have to make that move there. Sutil could have been a gentleman but he’s racing driver. In comparison, Vettel had some room just not the room he wanted because he was on he dirty side. He didn’t want to brake in the dirty stuffy and to me, that means Vettel back off then because there’s only one racing line and only one clean side and Webber shouldn’t have to budge just because you have rocked up. If someone is in the dirty stuff and wants to get ahead should the one defending just wave him through? Webber made a mistake by leaving the door open in the first place but he shouldn’t have to stand there holding it open.

    I don’t know if Vettel lost the car or not. If he did then that was an accident but Vettel has turned right in on people a couple of times, in the pits and earlier that very race with Hamilton.

    I noticed what Red Andy said above that Vet has always pitted first. I don’t like conspiracies and Macca pointed this out before me
    “Q: You chose to come out of the garage for your final flying lap ahead of Sebastian. The previous lap you would have been behind Sebastian. Was that trying to put pressure on him at that stage?
    MW: No, I don’t know what happened. It should have been me second. But, anyway, I think we left too early. I don’t know what happened. We need to see what happened on the pit wall. Normally I would go second this weekend.”
    http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/5/10848.html
    Seems Mark himself doesn’t know.

    Do I think there are deliberate teamorders? Probably not. I think RBR would be happy to have either driver win this title. However, the will of the team may be to see Seb win in the end. This will probably sort itself out in the end with Seb coming back fighting and a reassurance to Mark (he’s a sharp guy though) and they’ll be on their way again.

  45. I have the perfect solution if Red Bull wants to favour Vettel: bring in Heiki Kovalainen to replace webber! He never fails to be a gentleman and opens the door…albeit not only to his teammate but to anyone sneaking up nicely…

    Case in point:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUeqylGWjq8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VLdPDo6mP4 1.48 in
    (sidenote: damn I am missing Heidfeld, he had some really slick moves, and memorable fights with Alonso all 2007…)

  46. Cunning Stunt 8
    31st May 2010, 11:48

    Someone has updated Helmut Marko’s Wikipedia page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Marko

    “Helmut has been sexually involved with Sebastien Vettel for several months now which has resulted in him becoming a biased knob-end”

    I love the internet :)

  47. When two Bulls fight…its the grass that suffers!

    How on earth does a team give conflicting instructions to her drivers and considering the timings each had, it surely would have been more realistic to let the race flow with both drivers with their turbo boost up.

    Yet again..let hope its all hog wash, however in ANY RACE…there will be VULTURES waiting for you to just slip up once and the whole grid will change.

  48. The argument is not whether Vettel was entitled to have a go, nor does it have anything to do with team orders.

    There is no question but that Vettel pulled right before he had overtaken Webber and caused the accident. Webber is entitled, and would be expected, to hold the racing line.

    The real problem here is RBR’s response to the incident. Blaming Webber without due cause raises serious questions as to where the team’s loyalty lies.

    Webber has been at the forefront of building RBR’s competitiveness over the last few years and, let’s face it, is now at the twilight of his career.

    Vettel is a young gun and extremely talented – RBR obviously want to hold onto him for a number of years and to do so need to keep him happy.

    It’s wrong but yet very simple – don’t put your future on the line even to the detriment of your old soldier.

    Webber’s on a roll at the moment and Vettel feels he needs to take back the initiative – it cost him, the team, and Webber’s title challenge. Sad but not fatal.

  49. German honor nose dives, new title for the Austrians – lower than Schumacher.

  50. Martin Brundle’s column is interesting, he seems quite convinced that it was Vettel to blame and also that RB are favouring him over Weber.

    He also asked Martin Whitmarsh at what point they told Button to overtake Hamilton.

  51. interesting note:
    If u want to see webbers true opinion of what happened go to the post race media panel with top 3 drivers. Hamilton whispers to mark something, then makes hand gestures with his left hand going right then shaking his head. Webber whispers something and does the same, and they both shake their heads.

  52. Oliver I agree slipstreaming can save fuel, but I maintain that trying to get close enough to draft past lap after lap requires throttle and braking inputs that are wasteful. Simply, staying 1.5 seconds back may save more fuel, tyres and brakes than .5 seconds.
    I don’t have access to replays and ask anyone if Webbers line in ‘that’ place at ‘that’ time was consistent with his line there on earlier laps. Just curious.
    My on the spot gut feel at the time when I saw Vettels in car reactions was that it appeared that he expected to be ‘let through’ as if Mark had been instructed?

  53. If Vettel had just said “yes I turned right expecting Mark to move, but he didn’t. Fair enough, a racing incident” that would be just fine and we could have just moved on.

    The fact is Vettel behaves like a spoilt child and what’s worse is that RBR seem to be behaving in a similar fashion. I started to dislike Vettel ever since he started to moan and whine about the ‘magic button’ (and I’m refering to KERS here, not the incumbent world champion) every five minutes. Before that he seemed to be good news for F1, but he just hasn’t grown up. Sometimes you must admit that you are in the wrong – sometimes that’s just how it goes in life but the immature always think they are right.. no matter what.

    If I were Mark, I’d be out of that team as fast as arthur askey with brand new legs. Absolute disgrace. Anyone that understands logic can see who was to blame here, but as he will find getting a top drive hard to come by I’m not sure what to suggest.

    Webber tells it like it is and is usually, at the very least honest. Shame on you Horner (another moaner about engines every 5 minutes… the fact he signed the Renault deal in the first place seems to be lost on him) and Mateschitz. I wish you all the worst for the future.

    End.

  54. I’ve been watching this on the BBC website replay clip, over and over and over, and I just can’t see how Mark can be blamed one iota for this, its 100% Sebastians fault.

    Mark came out the previous turn and instead of moving right to take the normal line, decided to stay left to defend the inside. Only after Mark was in this position did Vettel slipstream and choose the inside line, rather than the outside clean line like Button. Once Vettel was coming down the inside Mark completely stayed straight and true to his line. Vettel then drove into him.

    I find RBRs response absolutely disgusting and shows complete favouritism towards Vettel. How anybody can see Mark even partially to blame is beyond me.

    I hope Mark continues to show up Vettel for the little trumpted up sh**e he is!

    1. ps. As I found today when looking for my lunch drink… Red Bull gives me wi.. err.. a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

      Won’t be buying another can of that stuff, and I used to buy it a lot to stay awake at work in the afternoon.

  55. Reading, again, Martin Brundles blog on the BBC… and I quote the text regarding his conversation with Christian Horner and Dr Helmut Marko…

    “I spoke with Christian Horner and Helmut Marko of Red Bull immediately after the race.
    They asked how I called it on TV and I told them I said it was 100% Vettel’s fault for swerving into Webber.
    They clearly disagreed and said that Webber should never have been squeezing his team-mate onto the dirty part of the race track when as a team they needed to be defending against the ever-present McLarens.”

    The thing is Mark never “squeezed” Vettel at all… Mark took his line, and only after did Vettel *choose* to go down the inside, Mark didn’t move at all while Vettel was alongside.

  56. maestrointhesky
    31st May 2010, 21:58

    Looking at the views on these forums, I feel Webber will win a whole new fan base as a result of this incident! Between the 2 RBR drivers, he now has my vote. At no point in previous seasons I would ever had said that – and it’s not a sudden change of opinion as a result of one event. Over the years Vettel simply crashes into too many people and makes too many unforced errors!

    1. Totally agree. Vettel has previous of course this year – turning right on Hamilton in the pit lane springs to mind.

      The guy is so immature. People don’t just move out the way unless you’ve actually achieved something. He needs to learn how to overtake before he can earn respect.

      As for Horner and Mateschitz. I’m dissapointed.

  57. The Vettel against Hamilton in the pit-lane, I must say that Lewis was half a length of car behind, and McLaren should probably have waited a split second to let Lewis out. Lewis should have yielded – as in traffic: if You have obstacles in Your lane or Your lane ends, You must hold back and pull out in next left lane, when safe. When driving in the right side of the road, off course;-) Lewis didn’t want to accept this fact, so Vettel pressurized a bit too much, and for this he was punished. But they are both great racers to watch and F1 is certainly not boring this season either…

  58. Guys,

    Please look at this link below which will almost prove that baby Vettel was completely wrong:

    http://www.anf1blog.com/2010/05/who-was-at-fault-in-the-webbervettel-crash/

    Please no more arguement about this…Vettel was 100% wrong looking for space that wasn’t rightfully his…

  59. Interesting that after all the dicing between Webber and Hamilton these past few years, he’s definitely thrown his support behind Webber in this case. Perhaps because Vettel tried a similar move earlier which Lewis thought was stupid, and dangerous. Not to mention the pit lane incident…

    1. I don’t think there is any other motive in what Hamilton says, he’s just saying it like it is.

    2. It was clear that during the post race press conferance while Button was answering his questions Hamilton, who was in the best place to see, lent over to Webber and said “what happened it looked like he just drove into you” Webber’ response and hand movements showed Vettel got beside him and then rammed him.

      The teams official story doesn’t wash either, Webber needed to save fuel but Vettel had done so off his own volition earlier in the race. As if!

      A more realistic explaination is that Vettel ignored team orders through turn 8 and down to 9 planning to take an unsuspecting Webber before backing off his fuel settings. Webber was having non of it and Vettel couldn’t handle the pressure.

      While I’m sure Webber is disappointed for the loss of a win and the team, his biggest rival for the championship is now 15 points behind. Webber is actually in a better position that if they had come 1-2.

    3. @F1Droid and neil,

      Can you guys hear yourselves?

  60. I’ve looked over and over again at the in car footage from Vettel’s car and I don’t think he turned in!

    Presumably, as so much effort is put into getting airflow to the rear defuser, there is quite a lot of suction/vacuum along the sides of both cars. Could it be that they reached a point where they were sucked together.

    As a yachtsman we all know this can happen with boats and was also blamed for a near miss as Titanic left on her maiden voyage.

    Just a thought!

    1. An interesting theory.
      Certainly the most original thinking I’ve read so far in this thread.

      I think it is clear to anyone other than rabid Webber fans that Vettel did not violently turn into Webber. Disclosure : I am neither a Webber or a Vettel fan.

      My personal view is that Vettel focussed on the corner ahead, as he said, and drifted slightly. Which is why I put a portion of the blame on Webber for not giving an inch.

      Had both drivers given an inch it would not happen.

      As team mates that is the minimum they should have *both* done. And that is the crux of it in my view. Hence, Webber having to shoulder some of the blame.

      If they were on rival teams, not so much maybe.

  61. Vettel fault.
    He hit Webber at the back. Webber did nothing wrong.

    If he wants to overtake, just overtake like a gentlement, dont cry for space…
    “Please give me some space…i wants to be a winner too”

  62. It looks very close as to who is to blame. but 70% webbers fault at least IMHO.
    The deciding factor for me is that the next corner coming up is a left hander, therefore webber needed to be on the right of the track to be on the correct racing line for entry into the next corner – quite clearly he stubbornly holds his line even though he can see vettel is past AND he needs to be over on the right of the track anyway!!!! Vettel didnt have any room to the left at all, and most likely assumed that webber would be moving over to the right ready for a good entry into the left hander ahead.

    In the interviews, vettel clearly is the ‘nice guy’ who is unhappy to point the finger – and quite rightly accept part of the blame. Then Webber blatantly points the finger at his own team mate on live TV. That my Australian friend, is not cricket!

    Wish Webber got the DNF and Vettel ended up with some championship points!

  63. “quite clearly he stubbornly holds his line even though he can see vettel is past AND he needs to be over on the right of the track anyway!!!!”

    No he does not.

    Its called racing. Webber left Vettel tight but enough space on the left, did not make any drastic blocking moves, simply held the line that he selected, probably in the hopes to outmaneuver Vettel on the clean side of the track at the exit. But it is blatantly obvious that Vettel went to the right a bit too fast what looks like a knee-jerk reaction. All Vettel had to do was move to he right slowly.

    1. Maybe Vettel should have put his right turn indicator on…

  64. Of course, if Red Bull had (illegally) signalled that Webber should let Vettel past, then they would be pretty angry with Webber wouldn’t they!

    I know transmissions are now monitored but any fool could come up with a code.

    Perhaps the log of transmissions should be made public. I have just been on the RBR web site and they have clearly lost a lot of support (in fact every single person who has posted a comment, including me)

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