Webber and Vettel lose one-two finish for Red Bull after collision (Poll)

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Vettel spins off after colliding with team mate Webber
Vettel spins off after colliding with team mate Webber

Red Bull threw away a potential one-two finish in the Turkish Grand Prix after their drivers collided while leading.

Sebastian Vettel had pulled alongside team mate Mark Webber on the straight approaching turn 12 when the two made contact.

The collision put Vettel out on the spot. Mark Webber continued but had to pit to replace a damaged front wing and eventually finished third.

The pair were under pressure from Lewis Hamilton’s McLaren when they hit each other, and the accident let Hamilton by into the lead.

Vettel went down the inside of Webber as they blasted from turn 11 to turn 12. As Vettel drew past he moved towards Webber and the pair made contact. Vettel spun off with a burst tyre.

Afterwards Vettel said:

I was able to go quicker the two or three laps before. I had the corner on the left and was just trying to focus on braking point and all of a sudden I lost the car. You can see on the television we made contact.

I’m not kind of guy that pushes all the fault to one guy we are a team.
Sebastian Vettel

Webber explained what happened in the press conference:

Seb had big top speed advantage, he went down the inside and we were side by side for a while.

The he turned pretty quick right and we made contact. It happened very, very fast. It’s a shame for the team, it’s obviously not an ideal day.

There was long way to go in race, it wasn’t a guaranteed victory. But but it was an interesting few metres and in the end it wasn’t the result either of us want.
Mark Webber

Team boss Christian Horner said he was “disappointed” by the collision, adding “we handed 43 points to McLaren on a plate.”

Afterwards Lewis Hamilton said Vettel’s move on Webber was the same as one Vettel made on him when he tried to pass Vettel at the same place earlier in the race.

Who do you blame for the Red Bull collision?

  • Sebastian Vettel (75%)
  • Mark Webber (8%)
  • Both of them (14%)
  • Neither (3%)

Total Voters: 4,338

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416 comments on “Webber and Vettel lose one-two finish for Red Bull after collision (Poll)”

  1. Eddie Jordan said what is Vettel supposed to do, stay behind him all race?! YES! Of course he is! I mean come on what’s better getting a 1-2, with you getting second and having your teammate win, more importantly holding the Mclarens at bay (your closest rivals in the constructors) or pulling a complete jackass move in the middle of the race that takes out yourself and robs your teammate of a win and your team of 1-2. I used to support the kid, but now I don’t.

    Bad job by Red Bull consoling him, you got sit down with him and set him straight. Even Martin Whitmarsh said he wouldn’t be going and rubbing him and making him feel good on the pit wall like they were…

    1. Wasn’t it Jordan who ordered Ralf Schumacher to stay behind Damon Hill?

      1. Eddie Irvine
        30th May 2010, 15:17

        good point sandman! spa 98

      2. Speaking of team orders: does anyone think that McLaren are trying there hardest to hamper Lewis to help Jensen, who is clearly not as fast as Lewis and like last year is lucky to be where he is!

        -The odd pit stop, you would have thought McLaren would have waited for Red Bull to blink 1st so as to give Lewis, who was obviously fast, some clear air in order to jump Webber.

        -The pit stop itself was botched, loosing Lewis a place and nearly giving Jensen a jump on Lewis, again!

        -Again Lewis was quite subdued on winning and appeared to questioning Jensen on team communication…During the race Lewis was told to ease up, due to fuel. a few laps later Jensen gets a run at him….after Lewis gets the place back and gets back on a decent pace, then we here the team radio telling Jensen to ease up because of fuel!????

        -It is clear that Lewis was asked to slow down and not Jensen, this allowed Jensen to surprise Lewis with that overtake. I think Lewis new this is what was going on as realises that his own team tried to hamstring him, again, in order to help pretty boy Jensen.

        -Lewis Hamilton, by any standard, is the better driver at McLaren and in my opinion the best on the grid; enough this nonsense that Vettel is ‘the new Scumacher’. I think its a shame to see how such nasty politics is getting into F1..

        1. Yeah. because McLaren would purposely botch a pit stop so as to loose a position to a competing team.

          And if you watched the bbc coverage they said that McLaren were already going to pit, but Red Bull pulled Webber in at the last minute to cover them.

        2. Mark in Florida
          30th May 2010, 17:14

          Yea when strategy in a race does`nt go your way perfectly lets pull out the race card.Come on now Jenson was the one behind the eight ball at the beginning of the season not Lewis.Jenson proved that last year was no fluke and no, I am not a fan of Jenson or that prima donna he is teamates with.If you objectively look at past race data Jenson is in fact the smoother driver.He is easier on his tires and fuel use.Every team he has driven for has noted this particular virtue.Hamilton is blazingly fast but at the expense of fuel and tires.

        3. Clearly Jenson is rubbish and all effort should be fully concentrated on Hamilton’s efforts.

          Clearly Webber is equally rubbish and all effort should be concentrated on Vettel’s efforts.

          My info is that Hamilton had less fuel onboard than Button. This would have given him chance to capitalise on that early in the race, but would compromise is race towards the end, as it did.

          1. Clearly those two are rubbish are they? You don’t think that Jenson was saving his tires and hanging back for opportunities that actually did come later on in the race?

            VXR. None of these drivers are ‘rubbish’. Jenson is the reigning world champ, Joint top race winner of the season. Webber has won 2 races prior to this, still managed to be third this race, and even his own boss admits he’s been at another level to everyone else the last few races.

            This is F1, the best of the best.

          2. Clearly VXR you are rubblish because your not an F1 driver. Button won the championship last year and out performed his team mate this year so has Webber. Its pretty clear to me that you are just a dumb nerd that isn’t a f1 fanatic to know that both those drivers have shruggled with under performing cars unlike vettel and hamilton whom are spoilt coming into big teams as a rookie.

        4. There is something clearly going on at McLaren, and i think Lewis is finally onto it. I see him leaving McLaren at the end of this year.

          1. Lol, you people make me laugh.

          2. Something is up at MacLaren and as I said in another post on PF1. Martin Whitmarsh does not like LH after their history and tbh I think Whitmarsh is favouring JB.

            I cant help but think that LH and his Dad’s problem with MW many years ago where Whitmarsh tore up Lewis’s contract but got overruled by Ron Dennis for LW to stay on at Macca is hampering relations b/w Lewis and Whitmarsh especially in the absence of Ron. Just look at LH’s body language!!! His first win of the season and no celebration! So subdue. LH knows something is up. othwerwis why would they allow JB had a run at him? why was he told to slow down? why was Benson Jutton not told to slow down until after LH had repelled him? “Mickey Blue eyes i’ll say.” when the situation were reversed earlier in the season, Macca found a reason to bring LH in for an unnecesary pit stop. you go figure

          3. Lewis was subdued on the podium,why????.I would have thought he and Jenson would have been jumping with delight,but not at all,very strange behaviour.

          4. the thing is where could lewis go, the top 2 teams that could offer him good salary and another chance at the drivers championship are mclaren or ferrari. I doubt it ferrari would have him alongside fernando like in 07′.

        5. Give me a break. You’re Lewis Hamilton fanboyism has clearly made your good racing judgment fade away.

        6. Yes!!!!!!!!!!
          I agree with you 100%
          The Mclaren strat is geared towards Jenson Button and NOT Lewis Hamilton

          Thank God, Lewis is the talented of the two and can fight his own battles without the help of the team

          BUT
          If were him, i would be looking at other offers.

          1. He’s going to leave a team that supported HIM more than a reigning double world champion and served him up a championship winning car 3 times? Hahaha.

            We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes of McLaren, so who’s to say Jenson gets more support than Lewis? No-one, that’s who.

          2. ConcedoNulli
            30th May 2010, 22:38

            Yes the evidence does suggest that they are favouring Button strategy. Obviously they left the bung in the side pod to enhance his chances of gaining points in Monaco.

        7. LH’s tires were shot, they said as much after the race. He had to come in and RBR reacted very well. Don’t think there is any favouritism in that team, yet.

          1. the team favour Vettel more and it can’t get more clear than the response Helmut Marko who is the boss of Red Bull Motorsport. He told the media that Webber should of let him through and also he blamed the whole thing on Webber. Unfortunately nationality has alot to do with it. RBR is an Austrian team and who more better do they want to win than a German. The team cuddled Vettel after the incident, normally with another person they would of been disciplined. Its all BS and I’ve had enough of Red Bull after the turkey collision. I was a diehard RBR supporter before this because Christian Horner kept implying how the team treats both drivers equally but after turkey in my eyes this is no longer valid. I’ll still support Webber but Vettel is no long the champion material I’d thought he was back when he was with Toro Rosso.

        8. Even his pit stop was compromised allowing Vettel to get ahead of him. That is what happens when Hamilton’s managers are not in the garage unlike the days when his father use to bring some authority with him. Even his team thinks they can mess about with him now.

        9. For an F1 fan I’m amazed you can’t spell Jenson’s name correctly. Its quite irritating. I suppose you call Ross Brawn – Braun, too eh?

        10. I’m not going to comment everything LooseCruze, as many others already have.

          However, you should know that this year it’s a disadvantage to stay out longer because the ones on fresh tires will be faster. If hamilton had stayed out he would have been further behind. If Webber had stayed out, Hamilton would most likely have passed him.

          It is absolutely ridiculous to see all these comments about McLaren favoring Button. I mean, Hamilton’s been supported by McLaren since he was 10, why would they after so many years of working together try to sabotage for him. Every team has problems with pit stops sometimes. Mistakes happen, that’s it.

          If anything, Jenson has proved his critics wrong this year by winning 2 races and matching Hamilton’s pace.

          Just for the record, I support neither of the two drivers so I’m looking at things from a neutral point of view.

          And lastly, thanks to Keith for the great articles!

          1. @Metallion, most sensible comment on this thread so far. McLaren are the ultimately fair play team historically, to their detriment, often.

            It does seem though that LH is not getting on terrifically with his race engineer. He complained a little about this in the press conference. ‘ It was not always easy to understand what they wanted from me’. Seems to be a little friction there.

        11. you have some points here, unfortunately all are a little besides the reality.

          1. Lewis wanted to get into the pits before Mark, covering Vettels stop. But Red Bull saw them getting out and quickly covered Lewis.

          2. You cannot seriously think that McLaren have done a slow pitstop on purpose losing Lewis a race position to Red Bull instead of getting in front of another?

          3. Jenson had been saving tyres and fuel from a point earlier than Lewis and had got in a good optimum pace, so he could close up when Lewis had to start saving fuel as well.
          4. Sure Lewis was suprised, as was the McLaren pit wall. After making some nice on track moves, Lewis ended up back first and Button was told to back off (he went a second per lap slower). And Button apologized for the thing.
          5. Great you are convinced, Lewis is the better driver. Sure he is a great racer, but he can still learn something and he is learning quick the last 2 years first from not having a winning car and now from having a team mate who can think for himself. Button is really good at the moment, not sure if he is better.

        12. @ LooseCruze. No offense to you or your opinion, but I think that the is an absolutely rubbish conspiracy theory. Lewis will always be McLarens #1, and there is no way any driver…(even Fernando Alonso), would get any sort of preferential treatment over Lewis.

        13. Loosecruz – “I think its a shame to see how such nasty politics is getting into F1..”

          Is getting into Formula 1? Have you been in a cave for the last 20 years with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears, whilst humming?

          Mate I’m sure theres been seasons where theres been more politics, controversies, slagging matches and situations ending in “gate” then overtaking maneuvers.

        14. “does anyone think that McLaren are trying there hardest to hamper Lewis to help Jensen,”

          …er no actually.

          And as to the surprise shown by Lewis, we now know why as he was told that Jenson would not pass him.

          There is no conspiracy mate

    2. Plus, the issue wasn’t even Vettel trying to overtake, the issue was Vettel swerving into Webber while overtaking. Eddie seems to speak nonsense far too often.

      1. Whitmarsh quote: ” was a little surprised by the extent to which the Red Bull team were cuddling Sebastian Vettel on the pit wall”

        Vettel tried to pull the same move on Lewis, who later mentioned it during the F1 BBC Forum. Later in the race, it didn’t work as well for Seb. What a numbnut

    3. You talk like Vettel did it on purpose. A 1-2 is the desired result, especially if you are in front – that was all he was trying to do. This was simply a racing incident. His “sudden” turn to the right was actually caused by their rear wheels touching. Watch the replay again.
      The McLarens could easily have gone the same way. They were very very lucky

      1. The rear weels weren’t touching!

        Vettel moves to the right and hits webbers front left with his rear tyre.

        BTW I don’t think you can blame the McLaren drivers for their racing skills.

        1. Pat, By the Mclaren thing I think he means that an incident could have occurred, because the cars were fighting. Which it could have, the RBR incident wasn’t any-ones fault in particular, It was just an unfortunate event for the team.

          1. I know what he means, but I don’t see why it’s “luck” that racers like Button and Hamilton are able to overtake without crashing. This is exactly what distinguishes racers from the rest, the ability to overtake without having an accident.

        2. I am sure, If you watch the replay carefully, you will see their rear wheel touch briefly when they moved close. This is what dramatically moved Vettel towards the right.

          1. After watching the replay gain, i take back the comment above regarding Vettels move to the right. It is clear he did move to the right because that’s what you would do to sweep through the left hander coming up.
            He expected Webber to do the same as it would be normal. Webber decided to squeeze Vettel and delay the move – they collided. A marginal racing incident.
            Vettel could have stayed on his line, but knew he would be squeezed as the left hander approached. Webber could have moved right as normal, but he knew this would leave Vettel clearly ahead of him at the corner.
            A racing incident that could have been avoided by both drivers – but as Vettel was the aggressor, he should have taken more care. Simples!

          2. Look at the on board footage from Webber’s car.

            Vettel’s rear wheel touches Webber’s FRONT wheel.

          3. Webber was keeping his racing line, and there was enough space for Vettel to overtake. He didn’t squeeze him to the side of the track or anything like that. It was Seb who decided to turn right into Mark’s car.

          4. Whitmarsh quote: ” was a little surprised by the extent to which the Red Bull team were cuddling Sebastian Vettel on the pit wall”

            Vettel tried to pull the same move on Lewis, who later mentioned it during the F1 BBC Forum. Later in the race, it didn’t work as well for Seb. What a numbnut

            Someone tell Vettel to stop pushing people like he owns the place (remember the pitstop incident with Lewis?) That guy needs to grow up. Button and Lewis at least have some respect for each other and tend to give each other more space when racing

      2. Seb’s sudden turn to the right is actually what causes the contact between Webber’s front and Vettel’s rear tyre. The rear wheels of both cars didn’t touch each other, let alone cause Vettel to swerve.

        1. I may be mistaken.

      3. “The McLarens could easily have gone the same way. They were very very lucky”

        Overtaking really ought to be banned!

        1. They respect each other by giving a bit more space. Vettel’s move was rediculous… dangerous driver (but noone is blaming him for dangerous driving like they did when Lewis tried to break Petrov tow (no collision there!)

        2. What’s F1 without overtaking?

        3. LOL! Very good…

          we need more humour in the forums :-)

    4. Jordan was also notorious for laying into his drivers if they came anywhere near each other on the track. Ralf Schumacher picked up a valuable podium for Jordan in the Argentine race of 1997, but EJ was more concerned with berating him for punting teammate Fisichella off earlier in the race.

      Maybe he’s mellowed in his old age….

      1. no, he just likes to consitently contradict himself

        1. I think he’s just incredibly in love with Vettel. It’s not as gut wrenching as it was at the beginning of 2009, but still.

    5. the plot thickens:

      “Mark Webber was ordered to turn his engine down on the lap that Sebastian Vettel tried the move on him. Story on autosport.com soon”

      from: http://twitter.com/NobleF1/statuses/15050392813

      if it turns out that the team ordered Mark to tune down, while allowing Vettel to steam ahead, this is going to be a huge controversy, and personally as a Red Bull fan I would be very very upset if that was even close to true.

      I really hope Mark kicks Vettel till the end of the season now and wins the WDC by outclassing Seb, in the same way he has been the past 3 weekends (comprehensively, mind you)

      1. Mark wouldn’t actually have to have an order from the pit wall to turn it down. It would show on his dash that he needed to conserve fuel I think.

        1. Mark’s team dont sit close to Seb’s team… thats not the case in McLaren so teamwork is a little better there

      2. All the current and ex F1 drivers (Brundle, Wruz, Hamilton, Coulthard & Davidson) all felt Vettel was at fault. Their opinion counts for much more than any of ours.

        1. I completely agree

          Unfortunately Christain Horner and Helmut Marko are blaming Mark, it smells like Vettel is the favourite…..

        2. Paul posted some information, that Nico Rosberg was shown the crash at German Sky channel after the race and also stated Vettel to have been at fault.
          Apart from the Vettel and the Red Bull team management, this is clear for everybody to see.

      3. I do not doubt for one minute that Seb had more fuel and could run full power for at least 1 maybe 2 laps because he was following LH for so long while MW had to race hard to keep LH behind. The idea of team orders setting this fiasco up is ludicous and borders on conspiracy theory.
        Seb admits he lost the car under braking on the dirty side of the track and it moved right so quickly MW had no chance to move. MW had given him plenty of room. If you look at LH and JB, they gave each other the same amount of room and nearly collided on LH’s pass back at turn 1.
        A racing incident we have all seen many times before. It was a good race to watch.
        P.S. For all the nay sayers. MS finished 4th ahead of NR in case you were watching and passe JB early in the race. With a McLaren under him MS would be well in the podium today!

    6. ark should have let the faster car pass. Without that Hamilton would have taken Vettel and possibly Mark as well. It’s almost as though mark slowed to let Hamilton pass Vettel. Vettel was preparing for a fast approaching corner, on the dirty side of the track . Mark gave Vettel no choice, either lose the car on the dirty sude of the track or run in to him. Mark was not prepared to let him pass even though he was slower. As far as I can see it is simply poor sportmanship from Mark.

  2. Vettel: “We were all at the same speed so I thought I could overtake”… Eh yeah? As I see it, it is 100% Vettel’s fault. They are team mates, they are leading 1-2. If you gonna overtake then, it should be really clear-cut and executed well before the corner without any stupid risks. I think Webber saw him but thought that Vettel is just showing his nose a bit but obviously would not risk something that stupid – then bam! – Vettel just steers into the side of Marks car! Stupid rookie mistake from Vettel.

    1. If you look at the video, it’s gets a little harder to figure it out.

      Vettel looks like he’s got position, you can see that perhaps he thought he was past him, and perhaps he thought webber would give him space. Whats interesting though, is he definitely thinks Webber was to blame immediately afterwards. Webber was a bit quiet about it afterwards, perhaps he had a feeling he could have avoided it too, by giving him more space? :)

      video replay : http://bit.ly/9h6vFC

      1. He could have avoided it if he had given him space… But they were racing for positions and Webber were not at all out of shape to take the corner in a normal matter. In fact, he were in such position on the track that *if* you do make a move on him you clearly expect him to move aside to give room. In my book that is the wrong way to think, especially if it is your team mate and your running 1-2. If they were side by side 200 meters earlier then yes, see who can outbrake who. Now, it was a stupid move. Also, using such a narrow bit of track that obviously is dirty is to risk even more.

        1. Running 1-2 with Lewis right behind them making this lunge to the side even more risky

      2. It looks like Webber just held his position and Vettel moved into him. Webber probably could have given him more room, but it was Vettel who initiated contact, I think.

        Vettel’s fault.

        1. I believe that while this is probably his fault. I do feel that considering he was almost a car length in front that Webber would have given him more room. For me if this was between two different teams the matter would much simpler and Vettel would be to blame. However, because it involved his team mate, I cant help but feel that Webber was unnecessarily aggressive.

          1. There is no car length advantage involved here. If you watch the replay it is very clear that SB moved right and hit the side pod of MW’s car with his rear wheel. In other words his rear wheel was between MW’s left front and left rear. That is not exactly a car length advantage and MW was right to hold his line with the room he gave Seb.

          2. Are you blind? “almost a car length in front”!?

            C’mon, I’m not a fan of either driver nor the team but it’s amazing how presumably impartial and intelligent fans can proffer such a skewed perspective on a pretty black-and-white incident.

      3. Or perhaps is more professional in his behind-the-scenes criticism of Vettel, whereas Vettel is still young and less experienced…

      4. Webber was quite thinking “I gotta leave this weird Red Vettel Bull team…”

        Whitmarsh quote: ” was a little surprised by the extent to which the Red Bull team were cuddling Sebastian Vettel on the pit wall”

      5. What? Actually the video clearly shows it was Vettel that made a catastrophic error, full stop. It doesn’t muddy anything.

        “…that perhaps he thought he was past him,”

        “…perhaps he thought webber would give him space.”

        No one gets into F1 by clumsily tossing their car about and presuming everyone else will get out of their way.

        1. An error based on what? A twitch in his arm? Or an idea that Webber would move over? (Team mates / race leaders / championship leaders taken in to consideration) My offered opinion is completely reasonable.

          You’re right, no one does get in to F1 by being clumsy. They’re a team.

          Horner said afterwards he felt both should have given each other more space. I agree Vettel is largely at fault. But of all the people on the track, he’d probably thought his team mate would have let go at that point. (clearly faster, happier on the tires)

  3. This confirms and inhances my dislike (im not prepared to say hatered yet) for Vettel, first at Fuji, under a saftey car no less in the jr team and now here in Turkey. He needs to grow up and respect what is best for the team.

    He drove in Turkey and he drove like a turkey.

    1. That crash just sums up Vettel really. Super driver, but bad attitude.

    2. quick_kill
      31st May 2010, 3:23

      dare to remember aus 2009?

  4. Sorry Seb, but it definitely looked like you tried to move out (I’m guessing he thought he was past Webber).

    Second time now ;)

  5. Huh – Christian Horner just sounded like he wanted to pin the result of the collision on Webber for not “giving space”. Isn’t this racing or not? For my money Seb drifted across too early.

    1. Yeah, I got the same feeling from Horner’s rant.

      1. From the replay, it looked like Horner shouted “MOVE!” to the TV screen and that Webber should have moved out the way…but I think Vettel had enough room to do his business without having to move into Webber.

        1. I was trying to lip-read Horner from the replays, but couldn’t understand!!

          But yes “MOVE” makes sense!! He thinks Webber should have moved,

          Nice catch Sam…wise

          But I agree with Horner. Had Webber heeded his advice, and MOVED, he would have got the racing line for the next corner before Vettel and probably repassed him!!

          1. Yes because as a competitive F1 driver your first reaction should be to always yield to a driver that does not have position to legitimately overtake you.

        2. Seb is a dangerous driver… lost all respect for him… he can’t handle being No.2 so now he’s out of top 3 even…

    2. I thought exactly the same, and when he said it I thought it was ridiculous. Horner insisted that HAM and BUT had a good fight but, again, giving each other space…
      I truly hope RBR will NOT pin this childish incident on Webber.

      1. If RBR do try and shift blame from their golden boy to Mark any chance Webbo might be calling Domenicali later this week???

        1. I hope so, Massa & Webber @ Ferrari would be great, Alonso going to… HRT

          1. It’s probably more a case of Horner angry about the 43 points, I can image him having a talk to both of his drivers.

          2. Massa staying at Ferrari.. LOL

    3. Definitely seemed that way. If so, an even worse scenario for RBR since it would indicate a clear team preference for Vettel. Basically Horner would be saying Webber had to move over (off his race line) for Vettel’s benefit. As soon as Vettel started the move, I thought there was no way he’d make it, too much pace to kill before the turn without veering into Webber or losing traction.

      1. I don’t think so buddy, I doubt that team if any is going to give preferential treatment. And they still had plenty of room for the corner.

        1. Well, we’ll see I guess. Having correctly predicted this incident yesterday (!) based on the animosity evidently brewing pre-race, I’d say that Vettel’s over-confidence derived from an idea that Webber would give way, based on his own sense that he’s the preferred driver. This must have some basis in how he’s treated by RBR. Maybe it’s simply an age thing: he’s ‘the future.’ But Vettel also always strikes me as Schumacher-ish in his refusal to accept blame.

        2. Think you should reconsider Mike. Try reading the interview with Marko: http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2010/5/10855.html
          Clear that he/RBR feel that one person was to blame and that was Webber. Also I suspect the team’s strategy was indeed to slow Webber and send Vettel past so he wouldn`t be caught by Hamilton – but WITHOUT this looking like team orders. Sneaky: tell one driver to ease off the engine power and the other to the do the opposite. And see what happens. Well we saw what happens! The question is WHY they would want to preserve Vettel at Webber’s cost.

          1. The stupid thing about this is, that Webber would have probably been passed by Hamilton as well.
            So instead of having the faster Vettel block Hamilton (like Alonso did for Massa in Melbourne) and bring home the 1-2, they wanted Vettel in front and would have Webber getting home in 3rd.
            Where is the logic in that? One reason: preffering Vettel to win.
            Sounds a lot like McLaren 2007 right at the end of season.

          2. But Dennis/McLaren at least had an evident reason for ‘racing against Alonso’ in 2007. What’s Webber done to deserve this treatment from RBR? Presumably: beat Vettel!

            And to return to my earlier point (in response to Mike), again Marko himself suggested Vettel ‘had no option’ but to veer right as he couldn’t brake on the dirty side into the corner without losing it. There simply wasn’t room for both of them at the speed Vettel had gone in.

    4. I suppose that Webber could have moved over a bit seeing as both drivers were off line at that point heading in. Vettel probably wanted more space so he could get a better line into the corner. If neither driver had moved it probably would have been difficult for both drivers to get round, especially without a mclaren getting past. That said, Vettels move seemed foolish, or at least far too sudden. Perhaps he should still have tried to push Webber over, but not so quickly that Webber didn’t have time to recognise he was being pushed.

      1. Seeing that video actually makes me feel a bit more that Webber could have moved over after Vettel got ahead. I think Webber put Vettel in that position where Vettel was more likely to make an error.

        It actually reminds me of the Vettel Hamilton pit incident. Both Hamilton and Webber needn’t have been where they were, but Vettel then did not need to Squeeze Hamilton or move across the front of Webber.

  6. What strikes me most is that Vettel doesn’t seem to understand when he does something wrong.

    When he rammed Kubica in Australia 2009 he was making gestures at Kubica too (when he passed Kubica’s crashed car). Now he rams Webber and he makes gestures that Webber is crazy …

    Vettel can only hope that he doesn’t get an “avoidable accident” penalty.

    BTW Nicole really sounds awful. How does Lews stand that woman?

    1. He drives a very loud car, his hearing probably isn’t great, but his eyes will be able to take in the view just fine ;)

      1. meh, she’s a bit soft and covered in 10lbs of product. Now J. Michibata, that’s who I’ll miss seeing in pitlane.

    2. He probably takes consolation from the fact that when she’s talking, at least she isn’t singing.

      1. That is a genius line matt90

        1. Agreed, too funny!

      2. Lol, to be honest I’d rather hear her singing than talking. When I heard her talk I got the urge to pick up a bat …

        1. After 5 days of serious tech F1 talk, lewis probally enjoys the none technical (brainless) time with nicole

      3. Dean Yamasaki
        30th May 2010, 23:18

        Yeah, but that’s like saying you’d rather bite into tinfoil than listen to someone dragging their fingernails across a blackboard.

      4. couldn’t agree more! +1. :D

    3. Well actually I remember him understanding he did make a mistake. The “I’m sorry guys, I’m an idiot”-radiomessage is still pretty clear in my memory. He did gesture indeed. He made a mistake here too, Webber isn’t supposed to give him any space. Webber was just defending his position and Vettel decided to steer in anyway. Pretty dumb mistake. Oh I wouldn’t mind trading in single life for a life with Nicole :p Singing is probably not the only quality she has :p

    4. He wasn’t gesturing that Webber was crazy he was gesturing for the forks to lift his car out of the way.

      1. You should put a smiley behind that to indicate that it’s a joke.

    5. LOL!. She is American…remember?

    6. At first I thought the gestures were him blaming himself for being crazy. That’s when the first quotes I heard (via the liveblog) from him, admitting that he was an idiot. The post-race quotes I’ve read from him were not like that though..

    7. “What strikes me most is that Vettel doesn’t seem to understand when he does something wrong.” – he’s trying to live up to his billing as the new Schumacher ;)

      Seriously though, there’s a hell of a lot of successful people who get there simply because they never question their own ‘rightness’… it’s a shame the world is run that way, but people want winners and don’t generally look much beyond that. There’s plenty of drivers DC springs to mind – who would beat themselves up for weeks over a collision like that, and it would damage them. The successful guys just move on certain they were right all along.

    8. They need to replace Vettel with Kubica… that’d be an awesome team

      You’re right, that guy needs to grow up

    9. And not the first time Vettel has made a mistake a hit Webber… Japan 2007 anyone?

  7. Did anyone see Hamilton and Webber discussing the crash in the post race press confrence while Button was talking about his race. It looked like both of them suggested that Vettel moved right. That’s what it look like with their hand gestures.

    1. HounslowBusGarage
      30th May 2010, 15:18

      Yes very much so. I’d love to hear precisely what those two were saying, but the hand gestures were very clear.
      Previous to that, just before they came out for the Podium they were discussing it with Webber whose facial expression betrayed his disgust.
      The big question is whether this will affect the pairing and the team from here on.

      1. In the press conference afterwards, Ham asked Webber what happened while Button was talking, Webber put his hands side by side, mimicking the cars, then pushed of of the out the way. He thinks Vettel for no reason just ran in to him.

        However, watching the video back, it’s not so easy to blame Vettel, as he’s got reason to believe he’s well past Webber, and Webber would give him room for the corner. He clearly thinks so immediately afterwards. I believe there’s a hint of Webber thinking he could have avoided the crash.

        What is sure, no one wanted that crash to happen in the Red Bull team.

        video replay : http://bit.ly/9h6vFC

        1. Hamilton felt like Vettel did the same for him. Vettel was stupid today.

          Again Vettel fans will have to count lost points at the end of the season…

        2. thanks for providing the video.

          I don’t think Seb will be trying that type of move again. Hamilton learnt not to just dive down the inside some time ago – and now Seb has learnt the hard way. Mark would have had to give way for Seb to make that corner, which isn’t how overtaking should work (ie. let me take that spot or we are both out) – especially not amongst team mates.

          Webber is probably the worst driver to try it against – he is very defensive. Completely Seb’s fault, and if Horner tries to blame this on Mark I will be very upset at the team.

          1. Yeah I think before the podium and in the press conference Lewis was saying to Webber that Vettel had pulled the same sort of shenanigans with him. I think in their little chat before the podium, Jenson thought Lewis was talking about him and their little tussle and so started to explain that he hadn’t done anything untoward to catch Lewis up. Then Lewis told him he was talking about Vettel and also realised they were being listened to.

        3. That’s the same video that’s already linked to this article.

          Yes, it’s VERY easy to blame Vettel. He has NO reason to believe he’s “well passed” Webber. Is he so inexperienced that he hasn’t developed a sense for when he’s 1+ car lengths AHEAD of another car? He moved right and he right wheel hit Webber’s sidepod ffs!

          So yeah I guess if he thought he was “well past” Webber that his judgement is pretty damn terrible. I think Webber’s reaction post-race was more someone trying not to say what he truly thinks of his teammate.

          1. You should know, that link was posted before Keith added it to the article. But thanks for the positive vibe.

            Yes Bill, I’m saying his judgement was terrible.

            I agree about Webber’s reaction.

  8. He was up the inside, had the advantage but them tried to muscle Webber and cement the lead. Webber did not move, as I think he was not expecting it and probably would not give him extra room anyway. Vettel was to aggresive.

    1. Totally disagree – if both drivers had held their line they would not have made the corner properly.
      Approaching a left hander the correct thing is to sweep slightly right before you brake for the corner. Mark was half a car length behind and had already lost the position, but refused to yield. It was always going to end badly if he didn’t move over to the right slightly to give room. Whats the point in defending a place thats already gone? I would always expect a driver to move right before going left and Mark is experienced enough to know that.

      1. Explain to me how Vettel’s right rear tire exploded if he was a car length ahead?

        Oh yeah, he wasnt. He was at most a half-car length ahead because he right rear burst upon contact with Webber side pod. You know, the thing that’s at the MIDDLE of an F1 car?

        1. I said – half a car length.

          1. Ahh I see so in your misguided opinion a pass in F1 is when you are half a car ahead of another? Ok, gotcha.

      2. This would have been a good point if Vettel didn’t swerve right into Webber, Hamilton also said that Vettel moved right into him earlier in the race at the same spot..

        Vettel should’ve either stuck to his line, and if he saw that there’s not enough space he should’ve backed off (however, most ppl in the know are saying that Webber gave Vettel enough space).

        Mark could’ve saved the moment and moved a little to save their race and give up his lead, but he had the right to stay in his line specially since he gave Vettel enough space, it was Vettel that turned into him causing the crash..

        1. I’d agree he(MW) is within his rights to hold his line, but as I said above, whats the point? Why take the risk?

          1. We want turbos
            31st May 2010, 2:50

            Look at the championship points who is top? And who would have been if vettel had made the move stick?… No I actually think webber didn’t have enough time to move over seb would have been in his blind spot until about a second before they crashed.

          2. because they are competitors at the end of the day aren’t they?

  9. Without a doubt Vettel is a fast driver. He has not, however, demonstrated that he is, or can race. Today was the day for him to do so and he did the exact opposite.

  10. ahhh…another crazy German just like in china with hamilton just push every one out of the way…just crazy

  11. Ned Flanders
    30th May 2010, 15:04

    It’ll be interesting to see how the team management respond. I reckon Mark Webber already feels Vettel is already the teams favourite, so being given shared blame for an accident that wasn’t really his fault is going to irritate him.

    1. Helmut Marko is blaming Webber.

      http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84052

      Christian Horner just thinks both are to blame.

      http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22310.html

      Stark contrast to the 71% of voters in the poll (including myself) who think Vettel is to blame.

  12. I think if it was anyone other than his team mate, webber was not in the wrong at all. The fact it was his team mate, means he probably should have left a bit more room, as the main objective when the race is that close is to beat the team just behind!

    1. Yep, I agree. But I really am getting dissapointed in the ability of supposedly “relaxed, happy boy” Vettel to admit to making mistakes.

      Him waving his hands just after the incident to indicate Webber was crazy can just be frustration. After he came out of the trailer I think he realized he could have done things different, but still nog willing to say he had felt under pressure and admit he made a mistake.

      Webber seemed to be willing to not blame Vettel too much in the press conference. He knows Vetter is feeling the pressure and that he himself is now ahead of his teammate. He knew the team felt a lot for Vetter already. Be gracious when your on top, etc.

      1. Dean Yamasaki
        31st May 2010, 0:10

        I feel the same way. Mark’s experience and age have tempered any emotional reactions. So far.

        It’s funny how Vettel was the “relaxed, happy boy” when he was with Toro Rosso with few expectations of success, and was inconsolable when he foolishly rear ended Webber at Fuji in 2007. He took full blame, apologized to the team and Mark Webber and could be seeing crying in the paddock.

        All that changes with a bit of success, and these young drivers get a sense of self-entitlement and attitude.

        I remember liking Hamilton so much in his first races because he seemed just happy to be racing in F1, and how his attitude all changed when he began to clash with an equally large ego in Alonso. It degenerated into a tit for tat one-upsmanship.

        I even saw the same thing with the Kubica after his first F1 win, blaming the team when things went bad in subsequent races. His wry sense of humor gone when he tasted success.

        I guess this just shows the type of egos and self belief it takes to become the best at anything, and at the same time how insecure they are.

  13. I’ve said this ~10 times on the live blog, but Webber had the right to hold his racing line or move right as most or all of this incident was in the braking line. Vettel steered into his team mate in the braking zone, so unless he lost it it was his fault.
    Vettel has made error judgements before, and blamed them for his title loss last year, and he’s almost certainly done it again. A real shame.

    1. My take is that both bear some blame. They were approaching the braking area, but had not yet reached it. The racing line where you brake is on the right side of the track, and they were both pretty much on the left side of the track. They both needed to move right to be on the rubbered in racing line so they could brake effectively, and also so they had a decent line to take the next corner. Webber was keeping Vettel as far to the left as he could which is his right to do, but they were approaching the corner and it was getting to the point where they both had to move right to avoid both of them totally messing up the next corner. Vettel before he moved right was half a car length ahead of Webber and I think this is a special distance which means you have very little sense of where the other car is. Anyone here that drives a road car on the motorway should know about blind spots, and I think the problem is greater in an F1 car.

      ..So my, admittedly uninformed verdict, is that there is a 60/40 split of the blame. I’d say Vettel shares 60% of the blame for moving too quickly right and not contemplating that Webber wouldn’t be able to react in time to get out the way. I’d also say that Webber shares 40% of the blame for keeping Vettel so far left so close to the breaking zone.

      I’d love though to see the track diagram with the racing line on, the braking point marked and the position of the 2 cars marked on. I think the crucial question is: how many seconds were they away from reaching the braking point when the accident happened?

      1. Good take – I agree though I’m inclined to say 60/40 in the other direction… It was clearly a shared blame incident and arguably just a racing incident, albeit an unforgiveable one for team mates to have.

        I’m in a minority, I guess. The 10:1 opinion seems to be, Seb drifted right, Mark didn’t move, ergo: Seb’s fault. Yes, but… The reference line everyone uses for this view is the white line that Seb was pinned to and had his wheels on, which he clearly moved away from. But the natural trajectory of the cars would indeed be back over to the right and you are correct, it’s also a function of where the diagonal-ish racing line from corner to corner is, and exactly where they were w.r.t. the braking zone, where they would clearly not be expected to be anywhere near the white line on the left.

        I think there were two ‘violations’ here, for want of a better word. The first was that Webber not only blocked, it’s that he blocked all the way to the white line, zero margin, against his own team mate (it’s one thing to do this to another driver, as he has done it a lot, and a quite different thing to push your team mate so hard), but then, having failed to get Vettel to lift with the block he kept Vettel pinned to the line and immediately prior to the collision actually squeezes even further left, in a classic case of what David Hobbs likes to call “closing the barn door after the horse has bolted”. At this point it is clear that Vettel has the run and at least has the inside line for the chicane.

        The second violation is that Vettel, having recovered from his little wobble caused by Webber’s second squeeze, drifts right, perhaps thinking he is already ahead but in fact leading to RR/LF contact. Webber starts to react and move right but it’s too late. This is clearly a mistake from Vettel as it’s a little too abrupt a move to be just the natural flow from left to right in preparation for the next corner.

        Conclusion: they were both in the wrong to some extent. But I’d say in the bigger picture it was a ridiculously robust block to put on your team mate after it was already clear he had the run and you’d lost the position…it would have been a good opportunity for Mark to do an ‘over and under’ move to retake the position in the chicane but it was already too late to be blocking on the left at that point, when he made the second squeeze. I’d be willing to call this simply poor judgement on Webber’s part if weren’t for the fact that he has done the same thing so often in the past. Based on that I conclude it was probably fully intentional, and he reaped what he had sowed when Vettel made his own error and misjudged his drift to the right.

        There’s a zeitgeist on how hard is too hard when it comes to defending, and it drifts back and forth over time. I recently watched the ’84 FOCA video and was shocked to see how upset Rosberg Sr. was with Mansell at Dallas, when the latter did some defensive blocking that was pretty mild by modern standards early in the race. Unfortunately we are now in the post-Schumacher era when there are cases like the block Barrichello put on Hamilton last year in Brazil, the one Kobayashi put on Nakajima and so on. Webber is of that era and I’d like to see the zeitgeist drift back a little to a point where drivers see the futility of continuing to block someone after the horse has bolted. In the wider view, Webber’s block + squeeze + pin move was a defensive move too far and one that was compounded by Vettel’s mistake.

      2. The problem with this view is that Vettel looked to overtake with the same space he had when he ran up alongside Webber as when he veered right into Webber.

        So the question then is, should Webber have moved over to give Vettel enough room to complete a pass when he’s only 0.5 car lengths ahead at most? Or should he presume that Vettel will yield since he didn’t have position to complete the pass?

        imo it’s not the responsibility of the driver in the LEAD to yield to make it easier for someone FOLLOWING to pass. So in this case it was the responsibility of Vettel to ensure he had the room to veer right to complete his pass.

        Thus it’s not a question of 60/40, 90/10 or any such silliness. It’s Vettel’s fault, and that means 100/0 for those that like to waffle.

        1. Er, the driver in the LEAD at the point of contact was called Sebastian. “Only 0.5 car lengths”…is quite a bit, actually, especially when you’re going 10kph quicker. You can do a lot in motor sports with half a car length.

          Actually I think Seb had even less room when he turned right than he’d had when he made the pass. That’s the point, really. It was clearly an error to move right when he did, to the extent that he did, but Webber was simply being a klutz by pinning him to the edge of the track like that. If it was Hamilton it would have been robust, to do it to his team mate, well.

          To see it as 100/0, well…no.

          A different way of looking at it is that nothing ‘wrong’ was done, in the strictest sense. This is a turf battle, logically RBR stands to run away with the season and therefore it’s starting to shape up like a Senna/ Prost case where they’re gonna run into each other a couple of times as a matter of logical necessity. F1 is designed to produce such conflicts from time to time and it’s the nature of racing. RBR will not see it that way this evening but RBR’s interests are not exactly the same as either Vettel’s or Webber’s. In this sense what happened was just dandy and it’s fine with me because it prevents or postpones a runaway domination from one team.

          1. Thing is, cars are often about half a car in front, but then they find them selves on the wrong side of the track and have to give up the overtake and try it where it is possible to get in front.

    2. Yeah James, the same way a pedestrian has the right of way on a Zebra Crossing. But you dont jump on it when you see a crazy driver approaching, do you? Cos’ though you are in the right, you have more to lose by not yielding.

      1. So everyone in F1 knows Vettle is a crazy boy and should yield when he’s anywhere near sniffing distance?

        Ok, that’s useful info for Vettel. Just throw yourself alongside anyone young man and they’ll no doubt yield because you are one crazy driver! Yeah, even Hamilton will yield to you!

  14. Both of them. Vettel had the line but was stupid to pull back over but Webber should have given him more room…

    Infact I’d say it was 60% Vettel 40% Webber.

    1. agree’d, said that on the liveblog. Don’t want this to turn into a witch hunt against either driver. But still it was a bit of serious shoot-footery.

    2. TommyB, could you please explain why Webber “should” give room to another car trying to overtake him?

      1. He was actually in front of him, and quite some way faster than him. He actually slowed up a little when he was in front of him, you can hear the revs dropping, but he thought he had the place.

        1. “I’m faster so please move over!!!” LOL.

          If Vettel was ahead of Webber then he wouldn’t have smashed his RR wheel against Webber’s sidepod. Otherwise he was merely BESIDE him, and expecting your teammate to yield enough room so you can get past is more than a bit daft.

          1. Vettel must have been convinced, that Mark had been instructed to let him pass. Only reason for not taking care about being on the wrong side of the track for the next corner. He “knew” that Mark would move over as he had been told to do.
            Boo for Red Bull.

      2. Mark Hitchcock
        30th May 2010, 15:30

        Because they’re team mates and don’t want to have stupid accidents like todays one.

        Without doubt Vettel is the man at fault. But Webber squeezed Vettel a little bit too much and made the chances of contact quite high.

        1. Webber gave Vettel more than enough room, these suggestions that Webber sqeezed Vettel are total trollop, if you look at Vettels on board video at 1:21 you can see he is less than 6 inches by the white line on the left, then at 1:23 they are still down the straight before they even reach the 100m board but Vettel is now well over a foot a away from the white line on the left at this point and he is even looking towards Webbers car, it suggests to me that he turned in on Webber out of aggression and frustation that Webber in his eyes was not giving enough room, HE DID IT ON PURPOSE, THE PRESSURE GOT TO HIM!! Conterversial but the facts speak for themselves.

          1. Exactly,

            Well explained

          2. yep, thats i how feel.

          3. I just watched the video again. If you look at the front on shot of the cars side-by-side, you can see that Vettel has glanced his head to the side into his mirror, and can *see* that Webber is alongside him. At this point, he swings out across aggressively, hoping that Mark will move..

          4. Not to mention that i love your nick name – the car is awesome – im COMPLETELY with you Subaru. There is no doubting it. I wish people would stop sugar coating it.

          5. I agree Subaru Sti, I thought it was a deliberate move as well, although I was prepared to give Vettel the benefit of the doubt that he was just being clumsy. But it certainly looked deliberate to me & on that basis I was quite happy with the own goal he scored. Vettel has been beleiving his own publicity, methinks & hasnt’ realised that to rest on your laurels, you have to acheived them first.

            But very unhappy that he ruined Webber’s race, and even more unhappy still that RBR appear to be not only blaming Webber for the incident, but may even have contributed by telling Webber to turn the revs down the lap before. Reminds me of when Webber won Germany & all RBR could say was that Vettel should have won. But you could see even in Monaco the atmosphere between Webber & Vettel was pretty toxic. I am getting 2007 flashbacks.

        2. Webber was slower and was going in a straight line… and if you watch the replay, Vettel had so much room on his left…

        3. You only squeeze someone when you give someone LESS room to maneuver. Webber didn’t encroach to the left, he just held his line. The fact the a left-hander was looming doesn’t mean Webber encroached, it means Vettel assumed too much and was far too optimistic.

          Seriously, do people watch the video attached to this post? I guess this post would be about how big a wimp Webber is if he had done what half the posters here suggest he should’ve done and yielded.

      3. that sets a bad precedent of being able to dive in on your team mate knowing that he ‘has to’ move over ..

        Button and Hamilton showed Vettel how racing between team mates is supposed to happen

        1. Button and Hamilton only survived contact because they hit rim to rim instead of interlocking. That incident could easily have ended in tears as well. I liked the way they handled it after the race though, congratulating each other.

          1. being alongside another car at the apex of a corner is a bit diff though, you can actually aim to bounce off the other guys rim. being side-by-side leading into a corner is very diff. they did handle it a lot better though, and Mark handled it very well compared to Seb

    3. Actually I’ve commented above, but now have a high quality replay and I basically agree with TommyB. They weren’t in the braking zone when Vettel got ahead, and he was well ahead when he started to go right. Webber just stuck to the line, which could be against the rules (as he had been overtaken) and was particularly careful with his team mate. An interesting one.

      1. This is crazy speak.

        Vettel should have just held the inside. Instead he moved over to the right being far too aggresive to a man that never ‘moves over.’

        Let alone the turning the engine down, Horner hugging Vettel stuff.

        1. Vettel cannot overtake.
        2. Webber has been badly let down.

    4. Tommy B why? Vettel was not fully passed Webber when he moved into him. Vettels fault period

      1. I’m not sure that Vettel had to be “fully past,” I think we might find that Vettel had the pass done and had every right to assume the racing line…

        1. Just like Kobayashi on Nakajima?

          Come on please!

    5. The thing is though that Vettel didn’t give Webber any time to react. He just slammed to the right into Webber.

      90% Vettel’s fault. At least.

      1. Looking at it on the slowed down F1 fourm this is 70 30 Vettle’s fault. An Christian Horner needs to see that clearly an handle both drivers well or he is in danger of loosing both of them. Both his drivers are marked men, Webber would be perfect for Ferrari, he gets on with Fernando, he’s clearly very fast, possibly Vettles match now his legs okay, as well as providing good acess to the small but affluent Australian market.

        Mercedes possibly set up their entire unit with one eye on Vettle, they want him to be their figure head poster boy like they where desperate for Schumacher an never got him till now.

        1. 70-30? Are you mad? It was AT LEAST 73.2% Vettel’s fault. Perhaps even 74.8.

          Really we’re just splitting hairs. For me I don’t see how Webber was to blame, he was defending his position as he was entitled to and Vettel obviously misjudged how far he was ahead, attempting to take a line he didn’t yet have.

          A similar incident to, and almost as silly as Alguersuari chopping off Chandhok’s nose when lapping him in Spain.

          1. Yeah the only blame you could put on Webber is that he’s trying to force his team mate into a mistake.

            You could claim that if a teammate is so obviously past then the defending driver shouldn’t make his teammate’s life difficult.

            Still, they are both fighting for the championship.

          2. “70-30? Are you mad? It was AT LEAST 73.2% Vettel’s fault. Perhaps even 74.8.”

            Well your certainly not splitting hairs, just trying to say this is significantly more Vettles fault than Webbers, sorry if my use of language bothers you.

            Regardless the point stands, this wasn’t good racing from Vettle, and Redbull has got to sort this out quick lest it esculate.

      2. Not much wrong with Webber’s reaction, but he just decided not to move to the right.
        Vettel was ahead, the next corner was a lefthander and Vettel was bound to go right since he couldn’t brake on the inside. Webber knew but kept his line. I am no Vettel fan, but imagine it being Button overtaking Schumacher. Who’s wrong or right?

        1. The sensible reaction for a car on the outside before the corner would be to take a risk go as far as it goes and brake late, possibly not making the corner, but maybe making it stick.
          For the car being passed it is perfectly reasonable to defend by exactly staying on your line and fend off the move by having the next corner.

          Only these were team mates with Lewis right behind. A stupid move by Vettel, only if the team had ordered Mark to give up position (and risk being taken by Lewis as well) it would have worked.
          So Vettel might be at fault but the team made the blunder.

    6. finally i have a chance to comment on this. and being a webber fan, i know it’s hard not to be biased but i will try my best.
      i’ve watched the replay several times, i’ve even watched in slo mo to work out the reactions of the drivers.
      firstly, the onboard with webber doesn’t show how much more room vettel had on the inside. this shot also shows webber turn to the right just before vettel hits him.
      i see no reason why webber should simply open the door, not that he made it that difficult anyway. i know it’s easy to say from here what vettel should have done but he’s the one who gets paid to race.
      webber was simply holding his line and it is vettel who swerves into him. i have no idea what’s going through vettel’s head to have not apologised by now and horner certainly hasn’t helped the situation.
      but you know the ironic thing? the points difference between webber and vettel at the end of the day is greater than it would have been had webber won and vettel second.
      now, bring on canada..

      1. i’ll just clarify, when vettel is first making the move, he’s left wheels are on the white stripe on the outer edge of the track. as he starts to move infront, webber does actually move to the right. at this point there is plenty of room for vettel on the left but he continues right into webber.

  15. seansverige
    30th May 2010, 15:05

    Like Seb but think one’s on him; and you could almost believe that the McLaren boys were given orders to show them how inter-team racing should be done…. ;P

    1. Ha HA, i thought exactly the same. Looked like showing them just that.

  16. The Nude Wizard
    30th May 2010, 15:06

    Vettel’s gotta go. Hitting a team mate is unforgivable.

    1. Kubica and Webber for RED BULL 2011

  17. Vettel is a great fast driver, but he doesn’t have the full package yet. This incident was completely his fault. He is too hot headed under pressure and he loses control, he can’t possibly win a championship until he addresses this.

  18. MouseNightshirt
    30th May 2010, 15:08

    Vettel has too many high stakes collisions. Remember Kubica in Oz ’09? Fuji in ’08?

    He needs to calm down. He’s going to lose more than just the one world championship if this continues?

    1. Not to forget hitting Mark Webber in 2007 behind the SC!

  19. Vettel is at fault 99.9% and if i hear anyone saying Webber should have given him more space, i say go and watch nascar or something… you don’t give space as a defender, you take it away, and the guy overtaking has to make it happen.

    in this case, Vettel had space, no need to force your way into Weber, but what i think actually happened by Vet saying he was concentrated on braking and lost the car, is that he forgot that he was still side by side, he did have a speed advantage but it was not enough, as clearly Webber was still there…

    it’s a shame for the team, stupid move by Vettel, excellent recovery by Webber, and the team bosses on the pit wall shouldn’t have tapped him on his back… unless they are still a junior still learning the ropes kind of team…

    1. 100% correct. The other guys are arguing by reading from some faux rule book that says if you are outside of the braking zone and have your nose infront, the other driver must yield (how very ‘f1’ of them).

      From a racing perspective, Seb simply lost it. He was too far down the inside to make the corner cleanly, which is why he started moving over (thinking he could nudge Mark in the process). The way he approached it was never going to result in an overtake, he either had to yield and pull back around to make the turn, or hit into Mark. He picked option 2.

      1. 100% agree.

        The out of the track factor was people (journalists and others that don’t have anything better to do) putting pressure on Vettel without any reason for that. As if not being able to overtake a guy with the same car was a failure. Now his pride will diminish a bit and maybe he’ll cope better with these things.

    2. You people never cease to amaze me. Just because you don’t like Nascar, doesn’t mean you need to include it in every post you make. Like really, let’s try to come up with something original.

      1. Sorry YeaMon, I intended Nascar cause guys there IMO have balls of titanium and overtake at the slightest chance…i never seen a Nascar driver on the defense letting the guy through sorry if it sounded negative…

  20. Vettel clearly thinks he deserves number 1 status, even exepecting Mark to move aside so he can get the victory and the Championship.

    Mark Did well for not yielding and showing what he should expect next time.

    1. Webber just assumed Vettel didn’t have position to complete the pass and would yield. Vettel assumed Webber would yield because he was a half-car length ahead.

      Stupid decision on Vettel’s part. If you don’t have a clear passing opportunity you yield to your teammate. It’s not your teammate’s responsibility to get out of your way (unless you’re Rubens at Ferrari), but yours to execute a clean pass. Vettel didn’t do that, so it’s not a question of %s like some wonks are posting above, it’s 100% Vettel’s fault for assuming far too much.

      1. Wrong, with the corner coming up so fast you yield otherwise you crash or push the leading car into the dirt. You cant do the latter if it’s your teammate. Mark’s fault

    2. Exactly the point. Mark did not give way and compromised the team. He wont be allowed to do that again.

  21. Bad team management, period. Christian Horner needs steel up his presence.

    This was a racing incident. I personally feel that both are at fault. We got Gary Anderson (Formerly of Jordan) out here in Asia for Star Sports. His take was that Webber should have thought about the championship and the team, let Vettel past (who did have the inside line), regroup and have a go again.

    Its easy to blame Webber, but Vettel was ahead and had the inside line…typically, Webber should have let him go..but in Webber’s defence, Vettel did look to turn in quite sharply..both are to blame!

    1. Initially I thought it was a dumb move by Vettel, but I’m reading it like Jay now. Except I would disagree that Vettel turned sharply, he just headed for the braking point gently, Webber assumed they were still fighting and only gave him one lane.

      1. Headed for the braking point gently? Are you nuts? He jinked hard and fast. It seemed like he was trying to ‘scare’ Webber out of the way.

        1. You must be blind – even Brundle said the cars appeared to merge together. There was no jinking as you suggest.

  22. Does anyone know where I can hear/see Horner’s comments? I’m very interested. Mark hadn’t even had a chance to begin turning IN to the corner, so it’s not even like they steered into each other. Incredible that Eddie Jordan was defending Vettel. As Button beautifully demonstrated, brake in a straight line, take the corner up the inside and try and hold it for the following corner…and as Hamilton just as beautifully demonstrated, Mark would have attempted to get an earlier apex and re-pass back up the inside, had he been given a chance. Vettel signalling afterwards that Webber was crazy can be put down to hot anger, but if even now he still doesn’t acknowledge it was his fault…well, it wouldn’t be entirely unexpected either.

    1. Err.. i think the McLarens were very lucky. It was quite marginal, as thet banged wheels and front wings. It could easily have gone the other way!

    2. I’m not certain but I think it was in the grandprix forum. I missed the start of it. The BBC didn’t play it on freeview today and it wasn’t totally obvious where it was on their website.

      when the Iplayer guys finish compressing it or whatever it will be here:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00srcx4/Formula_1_2010_The_Turkish_Grand_Prix_Forum/

  23. Mark gave Vettel a car and a bit’s room on the inside, thats all he needs to give. Its up to Seb to work with whats he’s got to make it work.

    Vettels fault for sure for turning right….. seems he likes to push guys outta the way – remember how he tried to push Hamilton into mechanics in the pit lane a few races ago?

    1. True.

      Also don’t forget how he pushed Button into the pitlane exit at the Valencia 2009 start.

      Or how he shoved Hamilton into Webber in China after the restart.

  24. Webber was clearly going slower into the next corner and when Vettel put his car alongside, he tried to squeeze the German out of the track. Webber’s wife (David Coultard) saw it differently…but what would you expect?

    1. Initially Webber squeezed Vettel yes, but that was more because he was trying to close the gap. After Vettel dove into the hole, he yielded and gave Vettel enoug space.

      Vettel had more than a car width space. That’s enough.

    2. Webber did squeeze, but once Vettel was side by side, he left Vettel enough room to get by. Then Vettel turned right, and striaght into Webber.

      Oh, and not every single person’s opinion is a conspiracy.

  25. This is being taken way out of context because a) they are team mates and b) they were leading the race.

    This was a racing incident, as Vettel said, he was concentrating on the corner and moved across, silly yes, evil no. It was no ones fault, it was just a combination of events, both drivers could have acted differently and ergo prevented the incident, but fate had the last say.

    Of course Eddie Jordan had to come on and say they it wasn’t Vettel’s fault, so now everyone thinks it was……..

    They both drover very well through the race, And neither should be persecuted for it. Personally I think Alonso’s move on Petrov is much worse, Alonso could have avoided that, but he pushed him, Petrov had a great race and Alonso ruined it.

    1. Man the fact that they are teamates is the context that this is being looked at. An errr, the fact that they where teamates an leading the race makes this even more sensational

    2. I thought Eddie’s argument was particularly unconvincing. He kept stating how it wasn’t Vettel’s fault, but every point he brought up contradicted what he was trying to say. Remind me not to hire EJ as my defence lawyer if I ever get charged with a crime :)

  26. For those that doubt the guilt of Vettel, have a look at a reply and watch Webber’s hands.
    He doesn’t deviate from his line !
    Someone senior need to “educate” this upstart about earning his stripes and the team comes first.
    He cost himself, Webber and the team points with a stupid, frivolous move that only exemplifies his immaturity!

  27. Crazy move by Vettel. Fast driver, but lacks the judgement to overtake well. Webber will not be buddying up to him after that. Big headaches ahead for Christian Horner this season I think.

  28. When Lewis made a move on Vettel, Vettel did the same thing, moved right to scare Lewis off. Lewis went back to the team and called it dangerous.

    I agree re Honer interview, ‘give each other room’ to me thats a dig at Webber… They favour Vettel in that team it feels.

    oh and Lewis’ GF… what a drip…

  29. Looked more like a “dont let it happen again” pat on the back.

  30. As a Vettel fan I’ve been dissapointed in his driving a few times now. He doesn’t seem to have a cool head or the patience in these situations. That said, he was in Webbers view for a good second or so, maybe Webber had enough time to nove aside and open some space, but I don’t think he was obliged to.

  31. I think I am speaking for all that are not Hamilton/Mc fans, and like me was watching the race and thinking: “At least I got the 4 first positions in terms of prediction championship”.
    Vettel you have just got a enemy ;)

    1. Yeah! I had 4 of 5 perfect! Web, Vet, Ham and Schu! now I have !!! not much again………

      Speaking objectively, I’d say that this was or designed by Mosley and Todt with Bernie’s backing to force Seb into the crash because secretly Mosley is trying to win the ticket to Silverstone but is in fear of my skillz………. now speaking as a lunatic…

  32. Hopefully vettel will suffer race stewards wrath at the next event. Definitely his fault, in replay webber turned right to avoid contact, but it was too late. Vettel you’re a dumb****.

  33. Lol I’m surprised most of you think that it’s Vettel who was at fault. I think the visitors of this site have a quite in-depth understanding of the sport that’s why I feel so.

    Look it was Vettel who was ahead he was the one who dictates the tempo and he had the right to go where he wants on the track.

    You know the unwritten rule of F1 at least since the Schumi-Villeneuve affair in 1997:

    ” The one who is at front has the advantage. “

    1. Webber could of, but never had to or was obliged to in anyway, give more room…
      Vettel had to hold his line but didn’t and tried to move right to have better line into the corner…shame there was a car right beside him LOL

      Vettel 200% at fault regardless.

    2. Even if that was true, Webber didn’t even get time to move out of the way. Vettel simply moved too fast to the right

    3. What the hell are you taling about?! Webber was on the racing line – end of story. Vettel jinked right too fast and caused the crash – Vettel messed up.

    4. What part of Vettel was beside Webber when Vettel moved into him did you not see? To say Vettel was passed him is a little incorrect as he was not fully passed when he moved over hence wheel to wheel contact.

      Vettels move was more akin to Australian V8’s rather than F1.

  34. we must remember they weren’t just racing for the race but also for the championship!

  35. I’ve already said I think it was mostly Vettel’s fault. I wonder ewhat the rules are with racing at red Bull – are they allowed to race? If one makes a move do they have to immediately let them by? Do they stay in order? I’d assume it was a nice compromise of race and not be silly but I do wonder how these two are being managed.

    I have to agree with Patrickl above about Vettel’s reactions too.

    This wasn’t the first time today Vettel’s pulled right. When lewis tried to overtake him he tried to scare hjim off and then Lewis outbraked himself I think when he got distracted by that. I think either Vettel seriously misjudged how far ahead he was or he tried to make Mark back off or give him more room. Maybe Mark should have gave him more room but this is racing and I’d love to know what RBR’s policy was before and after this incident.

    1. HounslowBusGarage
      30th May 2010, 15:34

      Apart from the actual incident, I was rather disappointed with Vettel’s waving his finger around at the side of his head, apparently blaming Webber for being ‘crazy’. Or have I read that incorrectly; was he indicating to the world that he (Vettel) had just done something very stupid?

      1. I read it as Vettel implying Webber was crazy which was a disappointment too

        1. I read it as ‘ooo I’m a silly boy’ so only SV could tell us what he really meant by it.

          1. Look at Vettel’s angry face in his interview. It was pretty clear that he blamed Webber for the incident.

    2. Webber qualified half a second faster than Seb. Webber was leading and Seb was third until the team and a mistake during Hamilton’s stop got him into second. If I was team principal, the rules at that point between the team mates would be that unless Mark has a problem, or you are so clearly faster than him over the course of a few laps and have a clear overtaking opportunity, that you don’t overtake. Mark did more than enough work this weekend to take the win, and it was ruined by Seb sticking his nose in because he somehow felt entitled to take the position.

      1. I don’t think Webber has got the more advantageous pit stop once this season.

        Vettle was clearly furious when he made the crazy sign, i’m not going to judge him on that.

        An Vettle isn’t usually this agressive, preassure is telling, it’s good to see though. All the same this was his fault an the points lost today are on his head.

        1. All in All, I’m glad Webber got the points haul over Vettel. This Austrian-German favouritism rumour has the potential to ruin good racing.

          Who want’s to remember Schumacher and Barrichello.

          I want them to race, and if they crash so be it. Webber should fight for his right to the World Championship, there’s no way, as a fan, I would be happy with in house favouritism because of national background, or expense at training the boy star up.

          In this area, I respect and enjoy McLaren’s approach, even though it’s lost them World Championships in the past.

  36. Yeah except vettel turned towards mark when he hadnt even gotten all the way past him yet.

  37. Clearly Vettel’s fault. Wasn’t far enough in front before he cut across. How anyone could blame Webber is beyond me – he was under no obligation whatsoever to move out of Vettel’s way.

  38. @Dragon – Horner’s comments were on the BBC feed after the press conference. Horner needs to manage his comments better – welcome to the big league of driver, ego and team management. Webber could well carry the team to their first WDC, not Vettel as previously thought at the start of the season.

  39. Vettel’s fault from what I saw. He raced past Webber but knew he didn’t have a good line to take the corner. Tried a shimmy at Webber to push him offline. Webber wasn’t having any of it and then either Vettel lost control or maybe tried a second shimmy that went wrong.
    Webber ought to be able to drive in a straight line without having that happen to him. Come the corner he would have had a harder time; wouldn’t have been able to turn in on Vettel who was ahead but it never got that far.

  40. Well Vettel is definately keeping the Mini Shumey nickname… he turned to the right and everything well done old boy, now just leave it out until the last race when it might mean something. Would love to be a fly on the wall for the Webber Vs Vettel meeting afterwards…

  41. Magnificent Geoffrey
    30th May 2010, 15:41

    You just know that we’ll be looking back at this incident as a key turning point in the championship come November.

  42. Prisoner Monkeys
    30th May 2010, 15:43

    I also disagree with the notion that Vettel is solely to blame for the incident with Webber. It’s easy to get complacent about it all because we can see the front wing during on-board shots, but the drivers can’t. Nor can he rightly turn his head ninety degrees to see what’s either side of him; HANS prevents it and even if it were manageable, the monocoque obscures your vision. And even if you could do all of that, add in the fact that Vettel and Webber were side-by-side at the fastest point on the circuit and entering the best overtaking point, and you can see how it could be construed as a racing incident. So I agree with Eddie Jordan on two counts: 1) what was Vettel supposed to so, stay behind Webber all race? and 2) it was Vettel’s error, but that doesn’t make it Vettel’s fault.

    1. You seriously think he didn’s see or know that Webber was rigth next to him?

      That would be even worse than that I assumed that he was just an arrogant kid who feels that anybody should move out of his way. It would mean that he’s incompetent to race at this level. I don’t think that can be true.

    2. Visibility is a good point but he knew going by Webber that they were close so any movement to the right could have ended in tears plus he may not have been able to see the front wing but he still has mirrors so would have had some idea how close Web was

  43. Jhonnie Siggie
    30th May 2010, 15:44

    Perfect for Hamilton. He needed some good fortune to remain calm. Now that he has tasted victory, hopefully we will see lots of sensible stuff.

  44. @ seansverige

    Well, they were given team orders, but perhaps it was one where you saw Button not trying again to overtake Lewis. Did you see the emptiness in Lewis in post race press conference? He knew that Button in an equal machinery had the better of him. Button probably backed out, with or without orders, knowing fully well that the point was made. This chap ladies and gentleman, is going to win more championships for sure. Anyone who thinks Button lucked into the championship should just promptly shut up. Today what you saw was one team-mate showing the other how to get the job done.

    So what is next for Lewis. Lewis has on more than one occassion pointed the finger at the team for his failings. Today, he lost a bit of faith in McLaren and i saw it writ large on his face in post race press conference. What Lewis will now do, is perhaps talk to other teams, which will most likely be Ferrari/ RBR. RBR’s seemingly wanting to get rid of Webber, i wonder why, but… Ferrari haven’t signed up Massa back, so there’s an opening too. However, i believe this will not be in the best interests of Lewis. Only time will tell how this will work out to be. For now, he needs to not let negative thoughts creep into his mind and keep his head down and work hard at his race-craft.

    Vettel lost significant face in my books(i know it doesn’t mean much) but he also did in the books of media who saw him publicly criticizing his team mate for what was but a racing incident. This racing incident was completely avoidable as the one who is overtaking is aware that there are risks involved and that the leading car may shut the door on you. The abovementioned is precisely what Webber did and well, Vettel got sucked into his own move, taking down his team-mate as well. Horner, he should promptly be fired for his ineptness, or atleast be given a dressing down with a boot firmly shoved up deep.

    Oh, i know that you’ll want to flame me for all that i’ve said. But take a moment, think about what has been said here and on TV by Alex Yoong, an ex F1 driver, who knows this better than most of us here. Then my friends, feel free to pass a judgement.

    1. Absolute nonsense about Button and Hamilton. If you were watching the race, it would have been clear to you that Lewis was told to conserve fuel, and that “both cars are the same”, so he started cruising.
      This is understood to mean that the cars hold station because they are both in fuel saving mode, so no overtaking. Martin Brundle confirmed this at the time. Lewis was shocked to see Button overtaking him. During post race interviews, he called it “unexpected”.
      After the race, before the podium ceremony, they had a quick chat abt it before the cameras focused on them. It seems that Jenson was told something else. That “empty” look was about why was he told both cars were holding station, when Button was still racing. Incidentally, Button also had to conserve fuel. He wasnt happy today, despite winning his 1st GP of the season. Everyone could see that.
      I think there will be a lot of discussions at McLaren. He got the place back and we can assume he pulled out a gap, just as you assume Jenson backed out. Everyone knows that Jenson cant beat Lewis on race pace in equal machinery.
      Once a driver feels there may be a conspiracy against him in the team, its usually a downward spiral from there. I predict this will be Lewis’s last year at McLaren. 2012 at the most. I also predisct he will be going to RBR.

      1. Wow, you called it all “absolute nonsense”, but agreed with most of what i said :)

        Lewis has been the goden boy at McLaren since his debut in 2007 and most folks in the paddock believe that, so what you and i think doesn’t really matter enough to change facts. Lewis has been out of place in criticizing his team on several occassions, perhaps he could use to be a bit more level headed in his approach. He’ll not get the same treatment that he does at McLaren anywhere else in the paddock, or have the same level of machinery available to him if he is treated any better. In retrospect, if he decides to leave Macca, he’ll be kicking his own derriere is my observation.

        Fuel load in Lewis’s car is not the same as fuel load in Button’s car. They could be running different fuel mixes, and do you have the telemetry to prove otherwise? Nor do i to prove my point mate, but we’re all speculating on basis of facts available. You did see Whitmarsh hurriedly making a radio contact on the screen right after their scuffle… must have been to the cars… asking them to not “race” and finish in “existing order.”

        Lewis is often called and told to preserve tyres and no, not all the times they want him to hold station at front, but actually look after the car. He’s a lot more demanding on the hardware available to him than Button or any of his earlier team mates. Personally, in the current context with the applicable rules this year, if one preserves his machinery, he theoretically stands to make a bid towards the end of the race. Button had the advantage and pressed it home, when Hamilton resisted. He needed it more and Button saw it, backing off to come home to a safe second, and a 2nd in the championship standings.

        1. Err, there is no speculation here. Button was also told to conserve fuel, and the radio transmission clearly said – “both cars are the same”. This was understood to mean “hold station”.
          Pls read my post carefully again, as i cannot see anywhere i agree with you. I just stated my opinion. Remember, i only disagreed regarding your Ham/Button analysis.
          I dont agree with you on the reason Lewis is unhappy, I dont agree with you that Jensen’s race pace is better in equal machinery, I dont agree with you on the reason Jenson caught Lewis and overtook him, I certainly dont agree that Button “backed” off. I dont even agree that they were told not to race anymore.

          1. Wow! Do you work for McLaren/ FIA? I believe not. Did Button told you that he did what he did, in the knowledge that team wanted him to hold station? He did not! Then it is speculating. What we are doing is speculating and expressing opinions.

            Lewis has his motives to say what he said, and so does Button. I’m not taking anyone’s word over another. My conclusion/ analysis is for me to rest on facts that are available and not what i feel or anybody else feels. My analysis of a situation is just that. An expression of an event from the viewpoint of me. Well and truly great if we do agree, but i’ll certainly not go to the extent of calling yours “nonsense”, as you did mine :)

          2. Jhonnie Siggie
            30th May 2010, 18:26

            @Sri… You are obviously a Button fan so just say you want your man to win. The ambiguity of the Mclaren pit wall instructions complicated things so we won’t know for sure if Jenson would have had the shot he had if they were simply instructed to go flat out.

            I agree with kbdavies that it is premature to claim that Button is better than Hamilton in an equal car. What we know is that Button is a very smart driver with a knack for picking the best probability during uncertain times. Hamilton on the other hand is probably the most “naturally talented” racer out there in the opinion of Ross Brawn. They both have different strengths so why don’t we wait till the end of the season and form an opinion then about who seems to be better. HAM has successfully overtaken his teammate 2 or 3 times this year whereas BUT has not successfully done so yet. BUT must be getting desperate to pull one off IMHO.

    2. Hamilton was told to conserve fuel and button would do the same, if you are not enlightened, that means both cars should hold station till the end, so Hamilton wasn’t expecting Button to try and steal one from him.

      Hamilton’s demenour after the race might indicate he feeling that Mclaren was trying to get Button ahead of him, since he, Hamilton, had been asked to conserve fuel, and Button, apparently wasn’t told to do same. We only heard Button being told to conserve fuel, after he had made a run at Hamilton.

      1. Abosultely. Not only was he told to save fuel, he was also told “Both cars are the same”. If this is not code for “Hold positions, no overtaking”, can anyone please shed some light on what it means?

    3. If you watched the BBC F1 forum after the race, Hamilton made it pretty clear that he was “surprised” Button attempted a pass at that point. That’s not the language an F1 driver would use (especially Hamilton) unless he expected a processional finish. The big giveaway was the replay showing the difference in straight-line speeds on the straight just before Button passed him.

      As to why Hamilton was subdued, we can only speculate, but I’d imagine it was a combination of (a) feeling he’d lucked into / inherited the win from the Red Bulls and (b) slightly annoyed that Button made a move after the “conserve fuel” order from the team.

      A great scrap between the pair of them though (particularly thte re-pass by Hamilton). Hope we see much more of it!

  45. vettel is the worst driver on the grid glad he wiped himself out plus hamilton would have caught webber near the end

    1. How would he have caught him if he had to turn down his fuel use? MW was lapping 2 sec a lap quicker at the end than your little mate.

      1. Athough I doubt LH would have caugh MW he was faster due to having fresh rubber…

  46. Webber didn’t do much wrong, he simply held his line. Vettel might still have completed the job even if he had run deep into the corner.

  47. Softwarrior
    30th May 2010, 16:00

    Looked like Vettel was muscling in trying to scare Webber off.Webber held his line and was hit because of Vettel’s misjudged aggressive driving.Vettel was not past Webber.

  48. Vettel has proven again today that he’s quick, but he can’t overtake.
    Completely his fault, robbed Webber of a victory and cost his team 28 points in the WCC

    complete fail!

  49. Hey Seb. When you wake up tomorrow morning do the world a favour and don’t leave your brains on the pillow like you did today. Then go and watch a replay of the race especially the bit where LH and JB dice with each other . Thats how TEAMMATES race. As for your comment that you are part of a team, the only team you care about is you and Horner.

  50. Webber should have given Vettel more room. How was Seb supposed to make the next corner at the speed he was going and the line he was on, without Webber moving over.

    Look I am sure Seb would have just opened the door and let Mark pass if it had been the other way round, but then Mark may just have thought, if he was in second and Seb was in front, that that was a good finish for the team.

    1. Well that’s exactly why Webber SHOULDN’t give Vettel more room. This way he could force Vettel into an error.

      1. well, he forced him into an error. I hope he’s proud of it.

        I love the guys saying that if you have to overtake your teammate, make it clean, however fail to see than once Vettel overtook Webber, maybe he was the one which should have made it clean.

        1. Well, Hamilton and Button were side by side too. Hamilton didn’t make the corner first time either and the next time Button didn;t make the corner. That’s how you overtake or defend from being overtaken.

          I’ll agree that Webber shouldn’t have moved so much on the straight. He nearly caused an accident by his weaving.

          The actual crash that resulted is 100% Vettel’s driving error.

    2. How was Seb supposed to make the next corner at the speed he was going and the line he was on, without Webber moving over.

      That’s Vettel’s problem, not Webber’s. If he couldn’t make the move without running off the road at the next corner, he shouldn’t have made the move.

      Webber wasn’t defending unduly erratically or aggressively. He left a car’s width for Vettel to get by, which is more generous than is strictly necessary, but Vettel wanted even more space than that.

    3. Webber should have pulled over, pulled out his lunchbox, ate a sandwich, had a drink and then cheered Vettel on from the sidelines as the next big thing(tm) in F1 who deserves to take his entitled place at the top of the championship.

      1. Sandwiches? Stone the bleedin’ crows mate. Throw a few chucks on the barby and crack a tinny ;o)

      2. Paper Tiger
        30th May 2010, 21:12

        It´s certainly going to feel like that tomorrow when Horner makes WEBBER apologise for causing the accident that took out poor Seb.

    4. You are being ironic arn’t you?

      Every driver fears being beaten by his teammate more than any other. Should teamies just move aside to let each other through? Absolutely not.

      Seb decided to try the tight inside line into that corner – always going to fail as you just get driven round in the corner from the more sweeping outside line. It would have been folly to try the move on a rival team, but to try that on your teammate, and then try and force them wide, is frankly stupid.

      1. Yes! Very!
        Paper Tiger is probably not far from the truth either, regretfully.

  51. It’s racing for heavens sake. Accidents happen. Hamilton and Button managed to pass each other without incident – Vettel obviously thought he had passed Webber. The comments so far seem to suggest that Vettel did it on purpose!!!! These drivers are racers and they take risks (which incidentally make good viewing for us). Maybe we should go back to Bahrain where very little overtaking was done and everyone complained at how boring and procession-like it was!

    1. finally some common sense!

  52. MouseNightshirt
    30th May 2010, 16:09

    Some interesting conspiracy theories coming up on the F1 Forum.

    There’s some suggestion Webber was told to turn his engine down but Vettel was not asked to do the same. Ted is digging some more now.

    1. MouseNightshirt
      30th May 2010, 16:12

      Latest news: Horner is now backing Seb.

      This is getting intriguing…

      1. it is indeed getting intriguing, probably end up being nothing but it does seem strange!

      2. Well that’s hardly a surprise. He always stated in public that the whole team revolves about their golden boy.

        No matter that Webber is again ahead of him in the championship standings.

        Vettel might be slightly faster than Webber, but Vettel still makes too many mistakes.

  53. Never mind Vet/Web, the Ham/Butt issue is more interesting. Hamilton was told “both cars are the same” when told to conserve fuel. All, inc Hamilton, and even Martin Brundle thought it meant no further racing btw both cars. Hamilton started cruising, and was shocked to see Button overtaking him, calling it “unexpected”.

    He fought for the place back, but both were very lucky to stay in the race. In fact, they banged wheels and front wings, with Ham pushing Button onto the runoff.
    You could see Lewis was very unhappy for a driver who had won his first GP in the season, he was muted when he got out of the car – no hugging or shaking any mechanics, and was even more unhappy on the podium and press conf.
    When discussing with Button before both went on the podium, Button seems to suggest he was told something different.

    Lewis is now wondering why he was told to hold station, whilst Button was still racing. If this is not cleared up, he will begin to feel paranoid in the team, and its a downward slope from there on. I suspect the damage has already been done. I see this as Lewis’s last year at McLaren, maybe 2011. I predict he will be off to Red Bull.

    1. No, I don’t think it is as serious as that. Button simply misunderstood that “save fuel” is McLaren-speak for “hold station.” Maybe he’s not got the latest edition of the McLaren-to-English dictionary.

      I’m sure all this will be sorted out behind closed doors and the incident will be written off as a misunderstanding. If Jenson tries something similar again, however….

      1. Jhonnie Siggie
        30th May 2010, 18:35

        Well said.. Mclaren will sort this out behind closed doors and both drivers will come to realize that it was the ambiguity of the pit wall that created the confusion. Very premature to say that this will make Lewis bail in 2011.

      2. The key point here is that Martin has no control over these two. The save fuel gambit was blown when Button decided he was going to save fuel later, when he felt like it. And Hamilton wasted no time showing Button to the runoff area for his trouble. Was that the racing of a team bearing down on a 1-2 finish, 40 seconds up on third place, with a critical fuel situation? Total insanity. Who can imagine this scenario between Mika and David. This was very telling. Control over that team is now up for grabs between Hamilton and Button and this is going to get interesting.

    2. Further on at the forum Button said he had been on save fuel mode since lap 20. If so and as we saw Button was keeping up, then he was the faster of the two McLaren’s. So maybe Hamilton realised he was gifted the race for two reasons.

      1. Hamilton was talking about a target time that he was given. If Hamilton is sticking to driving this target time and Button uses this to overtake Hamilton …

      2. The fact Hamilton was being held up by two RBRs may have had something to do with his “keeping up.”

  54. I love this. I dislike him, but this time, hats off, Mr. Webber. The germans at Red Bull really want to have the little german champion holding the trophies – I bet they didn’t count on the old australian dude to use the machine better and just simply race his way to the top of the WDC. Go Webber!

    1. Mansell is back in a different guise! Seriously, Webber needs a Moustache !! :D

  55. hamilton will be at mclaren for life i think ron dennis favoured him more thow

    1. Adam b – wanna bet?

  56. In any case, I think that VET’s gestures after leaving the car, suggesting Webber was crazy, wont help improving the environment inside RBR….

    1. Jhonnie Siggie
      30th May 2010, 18:46

      Animosity in the team helps Webber. With Vettel’s screw, he will know that even if he wins the next 2 races and have Webber finish second, he will still trail Webber the championship. A racer hustling to make up places is more likely to make mistakes. Mark Webber needs to find a way to remain in the zone and let the youth eliminate himself :)

  57. Vettel’s antics after the incident showed immaturity, and he has really gone down the scale in my eyes.

    1. He’s got a bit of a silver spoon in his mouth at Red Bull.. he’s a bit spoilt. That’s how his actions seem to play out to me.

  58. Vettel binned it and ruined a chance for redbull to grab more points for the team whilst they still have a performance advantage.

    someone should give him a good pat on the back for that one.

    1. Lol, yeah at least he keeps the championship exciting.

      The top 8 are just about within just one race win (between Webber and Rosber are 27 points)

      Compare that to last season where Jenson was about 3 race wins clear of the other 3 contender after 7 races.

  59. Vettel seems to be thinking too much about what he wants right now, instead of concentrating on where he (and the team) wants to be at the end of the season. His tangle with Webber, and his failure to shoulder any of the blame, just show immaturity.

  60. Oh my goodness, look at the herd going toward ‘hey vettel’ dont race for a position, help the team, and get 2nd, my ass.. he was trying his best to beat everyone including his team mate which wasn’t by any chance a fault, one who’s content with 2nd should never race, that was why i loved senna, and some of schumi..
    ppl talking about ‘sense’ and for the team, also were the ones complaining half the races didn’t have overtakings, drama, whatever crap even when there were awesome defenses last few races. I’d never give up vettel for this incident, like what button did to lewis at the first corner, webber could’ve avoided the race, and he could’ve gotten the place back by raw merit, but what he did was also good, he defended aggressively.. so its just a plain racing incident involving two good hot blooded racers giving everything for the no.1 position which is by no way wrong. yeah, hamilton got the victory on a plate and red bull lost 42 points, but thats how keke and senna have described racing, never back down even for a sec.
    I am happy I see hot blooded race today, including brilliant duel between petrov and alonso.. i hope turkey stays next year, and am planning to visit it.

    1. No, it’s about Vettel causing an avoidable accident.

      If Vettel had simply kept his line and took the corner from Webber there wouldn’t have been any problem.

    2. I would agree with you if the circumstances were different, but in this case Vettel simply threw his nose in with a sense of entitlement to the position (possibly reinforced by the feeling within the team) expecting Webber to move over.

  61. Hatebreeder
    30th May 2010, 16:30

    Sucks. Itz obvious. Such stunts are to be tried only when there is no one behind the 2. when there is an attacker like hamilton who looks for such chances n mistakes from the ones in front itz best to not take a risk. worst it wudve put vettel a few points short of webber in the championship leads. now with a DNF its even worse.

  62. I think Vettel was caught between a rock and a hard place.

    This is how I saw it:

    At about 47 seconds in the video you see Webber twitch the steering wheel to the left (even though Vettel was alongside him by this point). Vettel had gained from the slip stream and easily went past him however was now being driven essentially off the road by Webber. As they approached the breaking zone Vettel was brushing the white line and instinctively cut right hoping that Webber was going to do the same for the left hander. He obviously did not.

    I wonder if they would still have come together if Vettel had’nt had gone right, Vettel could easily have done an Alonso from quali and get out of shape as a result of touching the white line.

    Racing incident for me (50-50), just unfortunate it was two team mates.

  63. Just look at how much Vettel’s front left tyre moves from the white line on the side of the track after initially running parallel to it. I think the bumpy track can take a small part of the blame, but clearly seb moved across on Mark way to early

  64. Umm is it just me but in that video towards the end do you see Horner saying ‘move, move’??

    Guess there’s evidence he wanted Mark to open the door for their no 1… hehe

  65. Hearing Vettel’s explanation I think less harshly of him than I did at the time, but it was still his fault. Understandable that he was angry at the time but his hand gestures were not impressive.

  66. Re: VMM, who else thinks the low fuel biz was a canard to keep the cars from racing? Not a lie—-Maybe they had some concern, but just made a big deal of it after seeing the RBR fail. The fact that Button trod to sneak one at the end was pretty conniving. The way Hamilton slapped him back summed up hamiltons domination of his teammate this weekend.

  67. What I would love to know is how come Jenson was able to catch up with Hamilton if they were both nursing low fuel. Something funny going on there!

    Note to the other G: choose a different name, it is very confusing seeing two different G’s!

    1. No u change yours! ;oP

      1. No, BOTH of you change it.

        I am the real G. Any other is an imposter, not even worth an H.

  68. I’ve always been a bit of Vettel fan, but it’s ridicilous he can’t admit his mistakes. Surely Webber could’ve given him more room, but he gave Vettel enough “team mate advantage” by not blocking him in the first place.

  69. Cesar M. Martin-Saez
    30th May 2010, 17:14

    That’s why some are calling Vettel “Mini-Schummi”, I’m afraid. Same flag, same ego, same bad manners…

    CAESAR (S.P.Q.R.).

  70. give webber a nascar!

  71. This is ridiculous honestly… Vettel is always critical of his team when he isn’t pole, critical of other drivers when he instigates contact or crashes. Vettel is immature and far too agressive for F1… Nascar would suit him and his crazy, over agressive, egotistic attitude. I know I’m really having a go at Vettel here but 2 months ago he was my favourite F1 driver… But after this he has shown he is nothing more than a selfish egotistical driver who can’t ever declare he’s made an error. How low of him to do that to the team and teammate! I’ve had enough of defending him, you can’t defend this incident. Completely his fault & Red Bull just lost a fan because of him (not that they’d care as long as their pretty boy doesn’t leave then all is good right?).

  72. And Horner now says that it was Webber’s fault.

    From what happened and the rumours it appears the red bull team tried to speed Vettel up relative to Webber and then wanted/expected Webber to give him the victory.

    Personally I just don’t think Vettel is all that although he certainly thinks he is.

    Everyone always said how Hamilton was dangerous in the beginning and even still now but Vettel is much more dangerous, that move and the one on Lewis earlier shows that now he’s feeling the pressure because he’s not quite as good as people and himself thought he was and now he’s starting to crack.

    That said I think there’s something going on in McClaren – I’ve got a funny feeling the team prefer Jenson and so does Lewis and that’s why he was so glum when winning. I can’t imagine why as I still think he’s proved he’s much faster although Jenson has shown himself a worthy champion.

  73. IMO Vettel’s fault.To me it’s clear, Webber gave enough room and hold his line perfectly straight, Vettel “lost control” on the straight? No, he moved to the right to take the corner, before the overtake was even finished. He should have sticked to the inside line, overtake or racing line, in that case you can’t have it both ways!

    Vettel’s fault, but Webber is going to take the blame from Horner.

  74. The vote shows it — mostly Vettel’s fault. Mark was entitled to hold his line… Vettel is immature – lets face it he has “randy mandy” stencilled on his dash – is he 16 or what? What next – furry dice?!!

    1. No, a nodding dog on top of the dash. He can talk to it and get advice during a race.Maybe he can call it Christian!

      1. MouseNightshirt
        1st June 2010, 0:27

        Yes Ohhhhhhh Yes!!!!!

        1. MouseNightshirt
          1st June 2010, 0:28

          (For anyone who didn’t get that – UK TV ad)

  75. I think they were both extremely lucky as it could have been a collosal accident. Just imagine if Vettel had flipped it, dosn’t bare thinking about. Lucky, lucky boys.

  76. Just the kind of fireworks 8-10 very talented drivers are likely to produce.
    I’ve got one over the top comment. Seb we know you are fast. You have world champion in your future, and everybody knows it. Be patient … no need for desperation. Mark is definitely at his peak and he didn’t get there without a team effort. Protect him if you have to … protect the team. I can guarantee the team will protect you when it’s your time. And bro … yours is comming.

  77. The lap before the accident, Ted kravitz said Webber was the slowest of the front four, Vettel obviously thought this too, took a chance and failed, i think thy were both at fault, Vettel tried to block Webber, Webber was having none of it, they crashed, Webber won Vettel lost…. just my opinion :o)

  78. Mark in Florida
    30th May 2010, 17:46

    That scene at the end of the race with Horner petting Vettel on the back like he was a three year old that just broke Grandmas vase was sickening.What he should have done was took him to the van and chewed his a$$ for being impatient and throwing away the points lead.Vettel is a talented driver but over and over his impatience has shown that he still has a rookie mentality.He will not be a true winner or world champion until he learns to look at the whole season and not just one race.

    1. Totally agree. Horner has been letting Vettel off way too much. He needs to ride his a$$ back into line. If Horner hasn’t the cojones to do it, Mateschitz needs to put someone in there who can. Shame, because I like CH, but he badly needs to step back and manage this situation properly. Team first, and right now Webber is pulling in the results.

  79. Vincent1972
    30th May 2010, 17:52

    i dont blame any of them. i want to see racing even between team mates. things happens. what i hated more is the instruction to save fuel. this prevents drivers to go racing. mclarens radio instructions should be investigated. if their cars proven to have enough fuel, penalize them. fans were deprived of great racing. i am more against the strategy of mclaren than redbulls even the crash lost me 18 precious ponints in my prediction :(

    1. exactly … totaly agree

    2. Charles Carroll
      30th May 2010, 18:41

      I agree Vincent.

      And about the fuel thing, I guess they wanted no refueling this year to improve the show. That is debatable. Perhaps it would have been better instead to require all cars to start with a full tank, but allow refueling during the race if they’ve driven so hard as to empty their tanks.

      Maybe with that option, some drivers would be “rabbits” and increase the pace so as to drain the tanks of their rivals and force pit stops. Could be interesting.

      1. Paper Tiger
        30th May 2010, 21:20

        They wanted refuelling to save money, not to improve the show.

        1. Paper Tiger
          30th May 2010, 21:21

          Idiot. “…to STOP refuelling…”

        2. Charles Carroll
          31st May 2010, 0:37

          Ah, I see. Isn’t it a bit of a wash though, since they built larger tanks and fill them to the brim?

  80. This is not a teamsport….. it is about who is havving the biggest ####. Alonso gaining a position on Massa in the pit lane, Jenson atacking Hamilton……. That is wat racing is all about and i want to see that…….

    And in Vettels defence….. Marc was closing Vettel to the left even when he was beaten
    .

    1. You want to see guys with big ***** racing each other but you think Webber should have just stayed right and let Vettel cruise past and take whatever line he wanted. Make up your mind.

      1. Webber reacted exactly like my mind and that is what i want to see. Only almost everybody is blaming Vettel and for what….. He was racing and trying to win the GP.

        There are no ghostcars in reallife racing and collisions will happen.

  81. I think that Vettel is definitely seen as “the future” by many in the sport and many in RBR’s management, however I think that they are resigned to loosing him to Mercedes once they develop as a team and Schumacher goes. Therefore I reckon that they believe that if they give him a title, he’ll stay.

    I find it hard to believe that there is favouritism by Horner (and the team), despite hints otherwise today. Mainly because Horner and Webber do get on quite well and they are currently working together with Mark Webber’s GP3 team.

  82. Vettel is a spoiled brat and people will eventually fathom that! ME – I always knew it. Thanks for the crash – Great 1-2 for McLaren and Hamilton’s return to the victories and nice places in Drivers and Constructors Champs. !!! :D

    1. always thought he was overrated

  83. This was 100% vettel’s fault, he did not need to be there. The team had a 1-2 in the bag. If he was not in that place, no accident. Also reminds me of when he turned right into hamilton in the pitlane, as I said then the guy is dangerous and needs to be reprimanded.

  84. First of all, I’m surprised that the stewards don’t appear to have chosen to at least investigate the scene between Webber and Vettel. It was a dangerous collision, under the circumstances that they both risked a lot, racing each other at the fastest part of the circuit, well to the left off the usual racing line, all the while leaving each other just enough space to maybe still be able to get it right going around turn 12. A contact at these speeds might as well have led to a much more severe crash than what it turned out to be.

    The way I’m interpreting what was shown on the replay, Webber made his intentions of defending his position clear by moving off the racing line to the left (inside) for turn 12 — and by making that one steering move to the left as Vettel is going alongside him. Vettel, however, chose to ignore those signals, so he stayed to the left of Webber, keeping his top speed (slipstreaming) advantage. Then, apparently, he misjudged his proximity to Webber, as his small corrections — although he would appear to have had enough space to keep going straight on the inside — appear to result in him inching closer to Webber. Webber, on the other hand, doesn’t appear to push even more to the left after the initial move.

    From that, I’d say they’re both somewhat responsible for the outcome. The team does have a point in suggesting that Webber may have just appreciated Vettel was going faster and, thus, could have decided to yield his position. However, naturally, that’s not the only possibility. Vettel may as well have appreciated Webber was defending his position into that corner and could, therefore, have decided to back off once and try again at the next opportunity. I would consider it to be an incomplete analysis of the situation if the option of Webber moving over was the only one that was mentioned.

    My personal call (with the benefit of hindsight, mind you) would be that Vettel should have backed off there. Whether or not the team claims Webber could have known (or should have been told, which may easily have led to subsequent accusations of team orders) Vettel was faster and yielded is irrelevant. What was important was that in that moment, Vettel had clear signals to expect his team-mate not to let him overtake. He didn’t not have a choice but to pursue his intentions of overtaking him into that corner right then. He chose to risk it and it backfired.

    Under such circumstances, I would be delighted to see a bit more self-reflection and criticism from a top driver there. However, as hardly any other driver seems to be able or willing to deliver that, I haven’t been expecting it since a pretty long time now.

    1. i disagree about stewards investigating this incidents, because if anything they are all racing incidents.

      But i agree about Vettel choosing that line anyway even if Webber had already decided to go on the inside. It’s a common thing to do, if someone is faster than you, you stay on the inside. It’s the other job to get you round the outside.

      But somehow Vettel still decided to go on the inside, where it’s very dirty and there’s less room for mistakes.

      Webber had no need to turn right and make more room. Had he done that, he’d have effectively let Sebastian through.

      I blame Sebastian. It was his fault. The move was badly started, just when he chose that inside line. He completed it by turning right (or correcting the car as he was on the dirty side) and touching Webber who was clearly going straight ahead.

      You could see Sebastian was visibly frustrated after Barcelona, Monaco and yesterday’s qualifing. Maybe he was getting too frustrated about Webber beating him once again?. Who knows. But i think he overcooked it all by himself.

  85. @ Jhonnie Siggie
    “Sri… You are obviously a Button fan so just say you want your man to win. The ambiguity of the Mclaren pit wall instructions complicated things so we won’t know for sure if Jenson would have had the shot he had if they were simply instructed to go flat out.”

    Well, if i’m rooting for someone, it is for Michael. I’ve been posting here for about 3 odd years and most of the guys who’ve been posting here for sometime know as much. Now i also root for Webber, quite sad really what happened in this race. Nothing better than seeing a talented and determined driver conducting his business.

    About Button, i just resent that people are readily willing to write him off, even though he has constantly fared better than his team-mate through 2009 and so far during this year… I said as much that we don’t know for sure what happened and that Whitmarsh should be fired for being as incompetent as he is (read my written word mate and not in between the lines). Oh, just so you know mate, i’m not a Button fan, but i do believe that he could drive the current spec car better than Hamilton (which is a thought concurred by several others in the paddock), which he has proved over a fair few races now and with consistency. Again, just so you know, i’m a big fan of team Willy and Ferrari and have massive respect for Adrian Newey.

    My advice to you is to perhaps raise a query than instigating/ accusing, as people wouldn’t treat what you say on merit. Perhaps you don’t care… is it?

    1. Jhonnie Siggie
      30th May 2010, 19:10

      Maybe I was wrong to publicly declare your Button “fanhood” :). How about we agree that whoever finishes the 2010 season ahead (between BUT & HAM) be declared the better of the 2. I say that BUT will never win the WDC while in the same team as HAM and I know you disagree based on your earlier comments. I will write a note to myself that I will apologize to Sri on this forum if BUT finishes ahead of HAM in 2010. I’m putting my money where my mouth is…

      Oh and I think the Webber story is great. If he can beat Vettel in 2010 they should make a movie about it down under. I’m rooting for that outcome.

  86. Vettel saying that webber should have given room is a fair call. However, in my opinion if that had been a car of a competitor there would be no doubt that vettel was at fault. So with that in mind why should Webber have yielded the position.

    To me im also THINKING he had over shot his braking point. To me it sounded like webber was only just letting off the throttle as vettel turns into him.

    Call me a biased Aussie, but if that had been Mark behind i would be surprised if he made the same type of move and didnt run shotgun to vettel. But Webber strikes me as that type of guy and i wonder if his loyalty to teams has resulted in some of the bad drives which he has had.

    But with how close those guys were running and i assume they were getting some tow (obviously excluding mark. Vettel mustve been in a tough position, but i would guess he was more concerned with taking first as opposed to Hamilton being behind.

    1. Vettel had plenty of room on the left… and the next turn was a left turn… the guy can’t overtake without creating a dangerous situation… he tried the same move on Lewis which he mentioned during the BBC Forum, fortunately he didnt take out the McLaren… and then Lewis took the position back from him…

  87. The more I think about the supposed favouritism towards Vettel by the senior members of Red Bull, the more I am reminded of (not that I have a memory of it!), Denny Hulme’s title win against Jack Brabham, in a Brabham!

  88. Mohamed Sakr
    30th May 2010, 19:30

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050

    What does this mean!!??? It’s CLEAR favoritism towards Vettel. If Webber had to save fuel on this lap, they had to LET VETTEL BEHIND HIM!! To save him from the McLarens! And if vettel knows that he’s now faster than webber, way start moving onto him sooooo early?? This discussion and debate could go on forever guys..

  89. I voted Vettel guilty as charged. But there was no excuse for Webber to take his teammate to the paint at 200mph when he was obviously going to get by or get position for the next corner. Webber’s habit is to drive extra “wide” and this time it ends in tears for him and the team. Webber doesn’t have to play by Marquis of Queensbury rules for anyone, but when the man writing your checks owns the other car, you put away the brass knuckles.

    1. webber apologised after the hamilton accident in melbourne… he has respect for other drivers… vettel seems like a spoiled brat who needs some learning to do on and off the track… only lucky to have a quick car but the guy isn’t a racer if he’s trying to overtake and then take out the guy who’s saving fuel… button did the job giving more space to lewis and then backed off when he saw lewis on the charge… that’s a gentleman’s club, and if you’re not a member, you wont have friends in f1

  90. I guess I voted wrong, but it seemed to me (after a close inspection, Webber touched Vettel first on the side-pod causing Vettels car to swerve and make contact with the back wheels. Hope this doesn’t happen again between them, but what really enraged me more was handing the victory to Mclaren. Although I would have loved to see Button and Hamilton take each other out in those maneuvers that followed after the Red Bull self-destruction

    1. After a close inspection, Webber didn’t touch Vettel first.

  91. Helmut Marko is a weird guy, basically he says: “we do not favour Vettel, but Mark should let him by”.

    No, the guy who initiates the manoeuvre must plan ahead a little bit. His explanation was, that obviously Vettel had to turn into Webber, after all “he cannot brake on the dirt because for sure he knows what happens”. Yeah, “for sure” he knows.

    Vettel “for sure” knew that this overtaking attempt would put him on the dirt side of the track. That was the risk he was taking. Mark gave him enough room on track. Yes, it was the dirty side, but there was a plenty of room and Seb “for sure” didn’t have to crash into Webber.

    1. there was lots of room if you watch the stuff unravel from a normal side view (in replay)… what was he thinking…. and he never apoligises.. very unsportsmanlike, noone will like him on the paddock

  92. Good old Redbull. Laugh, I nearly got the Beers In.

  93. Seriously though, It was Webbers fault, Vettel was through an on to Him, To squeeze another car is one thing but to do it to your team mate is unforgiveable. Theres a word Iam looking for an it ryhmes with cat.

  94. to sum up,as those guys on TimesOnline said:

    T H wrote:
    “Vettel was alongside Webber when he took him out.
    Webber held position whilst Vettel drifted to the right.
    …”

    and

    Some Guy wrote:
    “Nice work Button glad to see someone trying to keep the fans happy.. Lewis held firm and gave him as good as he got. Well done guys.. Unlucky webber.. You desereved the race.”

  95. I won’t wait for Keith to post the headline: RedBull Been Caught. Since Spain, it has been clear that McLaren had the race pace to keep RBR honest, and here we saw Webber holding Hamilton up from the beginning. It was wishful thinking to imagine that this team could be hauled in, etc. Let’s remember that last year, Turkey was Button’s last win, and it was the end of Brawn dominance. So it is again.

    RBR lost the titles due to persistent bungling last year. This time, they are the quarry. Only now, they have squandered their speed coming in to this inflection point and built no points advantages, despite taking each pole position, and their bungling shows now sign of ending. Stick a fork in RBR. They have to hope VMM self-destruct as their drivers clash.

  96. Vettel is clearly Red Bulls Darling.

    I think Christian Horner was expecting Webber to give away the position to Vettel.

    Webber held his line. Otherwise he would have lost the lead and would have come under from Hamilton for straying off course. I quite like Red Bull but the way Horner was siding with Vettel, I have lost respect for him. If Mark was in Vettels position at the time of the incident and came to the pitwall I dont think he would get the same treatment as Vettel. Vettel was at fault by not treating Webber with enough respect. Vettels Fault

  97. *sorry meant to add “Pressure” between under and from.

  98. I am sorry for Red Bull F1 racing team and members, sorry Webber and specially for Adrian Newey whom provided one the best design of F1 cars of 009 and 2010. The presion on Seb was huge and the error was even bigger!!
    I am not on favor of team orders but someone must put some directions within Red Bull team.
    In the old days (10 for 1st …) 1 point was around 1.000.000 euros so …
    Red Bull could have 45 points and McL just 25 but McL got 45 and RB just 15 … 50 points lost over the table.
    Seb … that not the way to do it!!

  99. David Johnson
    30th May 2010, 21:07

    Really dissapointed with Red bull management seeming to blame Webber for not letting the faster Vettel through…people watch f1 primarly to watch racers race…loads of respect to the efforts the teams put in…but when a driver can be cold and calculating over whats best for the team when racing wheel to wheel with his main rival for the championship at 180 mph…is when robots take over the world and when I stop watching f1…

    p.s. Can Vettel consistently make a proper pass stick on a relatively fast car ? Or is he just a very quick time trialer.

  100. Well i guess we’ll never know where vettel saved his fuel. But you have to wonder….

    He was slow for the first stint, and Webber was holding back hamilton on his own. As a result Vettel is able to take back second position due to hamilton’s slow pit stop.

    Nice team strategy for Vettel to use the extra power to take on Webber.

  101. For what it worth, and I don’t know if someone else did mention it, but watching the video through Vettel’s onboard camera, it is possible to see that he approached Webber and first he tried to overtake on the right side, but suddently choose the left one, where there was enough place to go…

  102. Captain Caveman
    30th May 2010, 22:29

    I think we may be missing a trick here, as the fact that the incident is not being investigated by the stewards indicates that no driver operated outside of the rules and thus it is just a racing incident.

    The issue now is due to it being an internal team investigation as to how they lost 45 odd points to Mclaren. and from their (RBR) perspective both driver are genuinely at equal fault.

    One driver got the jump on the other, and was partially ahead. other driver applied pressure which could be regarded as futile and only going to lead to an incident. ( crashing or both cars missing the apex)

    i am content that both drivers know they could both have backed out and are claiming innocents as per the FIA rules….. which is true they are……

    BUT BUT, They both know they screeeeweeed up as far as team tactics are concerned. RBR see the constructors as priority and then drivers and secondary…..

    1. Its 44 points, actually.

      Also, it clearly WAS a racing incident. None of the drivers made a deliberate move to crash into another, and while Vettel was the one ahead, he was also the one to hit Webber, not vice versa.

      I fail to see what kind of pressure did Webber apply. He was driving in a straight line. If you watch replays closely, its Vettel who moves his steering wheel.

      Gotta agree though, they failed bigtime. When you’re heading for 1-2, you do not drive like this without 100% certainty you will be able to back down.

  103. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CniP2hpXx7Y&feature=related
    This link shows the racing line Webber should have followed or would have followed had Vettel not been there. Other race simulations by other drivers also show that Webber did not follow his racing line, but drove defensively against Vettel.
    Clearly Webber did not move over towards the right side of the track as Vettel would have expected him to do. Instead he was leaving Vettel less and less room to brake but on the dirty side and enter the turn correctly.
    And as RB indicated that they had instructed their drivers to give each other room, the incident was mostly Webbers fault.
    Also if your team mate is half a car in front of You, probably You should give him room.

  104. Captain Caveman
    30th May 2010, 22:55

    excellent vid, especially as webber states on turn 12 there is an opportunity to overtake on the inside :-) ……

    i believe the incident happened on turn 12… but may be wrong

    1. Yes, it happened exactly there, where Webber says it is possible to overtake on the inside, and You can see that he dosen’t follow the race line, but squeezes Vettel to the right instead:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIc-A–iNU
      Only by comparing the two videos, can we get rid of the widespread misunderstanding that Webber just “held his line” – he did not. If the other car had not been a team-mate, then maybee OK, but in this case I fully agree with Horner: Move!

      1. Webber did hold his line.His i]line at this particular time just happened to be a defensive one. he is perfectly within his rights to defend his position. He has defended much harder in the past (Abu Dhabi 2009) without crashing because the driver following him (Jenson Button) was talented enough to know how to race! Mark Webber is brilliant defensively, probably his strongest attribute.

        Vettel messed it up by trying to intimidate somebody who can’t be intimidated!

      2. good grief, Palle. You’re clueless. “Holding your line” doesn’t just mean the racing line. It means staying in the same spot on the track, relative to the edges of the road. And that’s what Webber did. Vettel turned right, Webber had his wheel straight and even turned right himself to try and avoid the accident.

        1. If You were paying the two gentlemens sallery You would probably not see it that way. They are teammates, Vettel is faster in this situation, Webber should have given him space to avoid the dirtiest area and then tried to overtake him, when and if Vettel would overshoot at the turn. As the team clearly has told the drivers to give each other space, Webber is at fault in this case – if you are a teamboss, and not a Webber fan.
          Case Vettel vs Kubica it was clearly Vettels fault – just to state that I’m not taking Vettels side in any case.
          I’m sure the two McLaren drivers also knew they were up for a serious talk with their boss, which is why the 3 didn’t nook overly happy at the podium.

          1. MouseNightshirt
            1st June 2010, 0:15

            No he should not have just given way.

            Mark had track position. The pass is not complete until Car B has completely passed Car A. So what if Vettel was “faster” (which he wasn’t until the whole fuel thing happened) – that’s no reason to let someone by.

            They’re racing to become world champions, not be everyone’s best mate.

            Mark was perfectly within his rights to hold that line. It’s Vettel’s responsibility to be sensible. Nothing was stopping him from braking on the line he was already on rather than trying to barge across.

  105. The accident with RBR should be blamed on the team manager responsible for the race strategy of both drivers. Think simple: you have two highly competitive drivers who, for different reasons, badly want to win the championship, kind of two 3-yr old girls fighting for the lollipop. The team manager should have given explicit directions regarding racing strategy (i.e. if second driver outperforms first driver for 5 consecutive laps, he should be given priority to pass). Obviously this strategy was missing or lacking or incorrect. The result was the two drivers doing their own thing, which is, stubbornly try to stay on top. They created a mess. Before we blame either one, we need to have insights on what had been discussed/decided. Till then, the team manager is responsible.

  106. the whole button-being-favoured argument is totally invalid.. mclaren are too professional to waste their time and resources by effectively paying for a talented young driver in an underprivileged financial position to go racing and become world champ with them and after 3 seasons in the top flight of his career to switch attention to a driver who’s been around the best part of a decade and has only just come to form as a grand prix driver because he was handed a decent car for the first time in his career.. what we are witnessing at mclaren is someone who is mature and ‘been around’ knowing all the right (excuse the pun) buttons to press and things to say and do within a team to make himself comfortable and to bring aspects of the team around himself, if anything its button making the team work for him and not the other way round (damned clever of him eh?)

    Now to my point about Seb V.. what i think happened was a total racing incident as by his onboard i didn’t notice him intentionally steering towards webber (may have to re-watch that) and if this is a case nobody was to blame but sebs lack of spatial awareness and over-eagerness which seems to have caused most of his incidents. They were both racing each other for the same spot and two cars can’t occupy the same spot at the same time unfortunately, something gave and vettel went into webber taking himself out of the race, 100% nothing sinister about it and its unfortunate they happen to be team mates. Webber fans should realise he’s done mark a favour by dropping out of the points and quite a few places in the drivers standings by his moment of madness.

    1. Gosh reading that got me out of breath!

      1. sorry about that :P I read too many conspiracy theory type comments that don’t make sense if you take mclaren’s situation into perspective.

      2. also, punctuation flies out of the window when i go off on one, which reflects the way i speak IRL too.. and it didn’t feel that long when i was typing it!

  107. So, if I understood correctly, there is a new rule in F1 now: when you are leading the race and there is another guy behind you, just MOVE AWAY, let him pass.
    Is that it?
    Then I guess is better if we all go to watch some bowling or chess.

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 0:16

      Sadly, according to quite a few readers here, that indeed should be the new rule.

      Does no-one appreciate racing anymore?

  108. Blind Freddy can see from the replays that Webber doesn’t move his steering wheel at all and Vettel just moves right on him. Vettel is an immature goose who threw a tantrum when things didn’t go his way. Maybe Red Bull should start selling dummies (pacifiers) in their merchandise tent. I think Vettel keeps spitting his one out

    1. In fact they’ll get even more cash for the ones he spits out. That might pay for the tubs he writes off.

  109. How the HELL can you call Webber Rubbish VXR? Back to back wins in Spain and Monaco, 3 poles – your an idiot!

    I dont know if ANYONE watched the reply – But in case you didn’t – Vettel pulled his car into Webber! Vettel could’ve ALSO backed off! Everyone forgets that. You would think that people, such as Vettel, would have enough SITUATIONAL awareness to know when to pull in front of Webber! That makes me think that Vettel EXPECTED Webber to back off. Who the HELL does that when they are in P1?!

    Vettel is feeling the pressure now too! He doesn’t like being beaten and he isn’t use to. Lets not forget that Mark had his a$$ handed to him ever since Vettel arrived. Now the tables have turned and he cant hand it – its so clear.

    What disturbs me most is that i heard the BBC stream, im from Aus, reported there were radio transmissions telling Webber to turn down his engine and Vettel to turn his up…?! Is this correct? Aussies dont get the BBC stream here – well the full one. We only get the commentary during the race…

  110. The move by Vettel was one of the dumbest I have seen in a long time. However I am not one who thinks he should not try to pass, it’s a race, and they must fight each-other or the sport is just a farce.

    Too bad the McLarens didn’t race to the end because of fuel, it was looking like it was going to be a great race and the first time we could see Ham and Button fight it out.

  111. Dean Yamasaki
    31st May 2010, 2:10

    I’m usually one that sees the various shades of gray in an argument, but in this case I think Vettel is definitely at fault.

    Experienced racers say they take into account the reputation of the driver they are racing against, and that going up against someone they’ve never raced before is often a bit scary. Mark Webber is well known to be among the toughest drivers to overtake and one of the most defensive as well.

    Vettel’s youth, competitveness and insecurity about the resurgent Webber created a risky situation in which he relied on the other driver to bail him out. That’s often just a result of good old fashioned racing, but doing that with a teammate is irresponsible and selfish.

    He should have radioed in his intention to ovetake or stayed behind Webber and protect his position so Red Bull could finish 1-2.

    He and his car lost the race in qualifying.

    But his actions during the race hurt the entire team.

  112. Stupid Incident for RBR Renault …

  113. Why does nobody blame the team for this? The guys on the pit wall obviously was Vettel catching up to Webber. Did they not advise their drivers on what to do? Why do they sit there anyways? This is entirely Horner’s fault for not managing his drivers. Vettel was quicker and was correct to overtake but should have ensured there was more space. Webber should not have defended by strictly not moving off the line. This is 100% a team management issue. These are racers, they are supposed to compete.

    1. The guy on the pitwall didn’t turn into Webber, that’s why.

  114. Hamilton put the same move on Massa on 2008 at the same place. The only difference is that he stayed on his course until the curve.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViPY7bIEh8

    1. Good point! The moves are pretty much the same in concept, though i think at one point Massa gives Lewis even less space. Great racing.

  115. I think it worked out much better for Webber than having a Redbull 1-2. 15 point advantage over his closest competitor for the driver’s championship – PRICELESS!

  116. I dont know whether I am imagining things or not, But I clearly hear Webber lifting off when he was alongside vettel, and if you look at the incident from vettel’s camera, you can also clearly see that he did no veering to the right it was only after wheel contact with webber that you can see a clear wheel angle and he was countersteering then(turning to the left not to the right)

    I therefore think that webber hold a big chunk of the blame, He was unnecessarily bullying vettel off track to the right in the braking zone while leaving a very huge space to his right. He was not anywhere near the normal racing and his liftoff seemed suspiciously too early. Of course it would be nice to get webber’s telemetry to know if indeed he was just braking early or he caused the incident knowingly by making contact with vettel’s rear.

    Isn’t it suspicious that webber was able to park his left front on the flow separating board thing on vettels car, give vettel a rear puncture, do all that damage on the suspension components on vettel’s right rear and emerge from the whole incident with only a damaged front wing?

    Vettel said: “I’m not in the happiest of moods. If you look at the pictures it was clear I had the inside. I was ahead and just going down to focus on the braking point and honestly, you can see we touched and he touched my right rear wheel and I went off.”

    1. Yes you are imagining. Or drunk

      1. It’s the teams fault and vettel’s inexperiences in these conditions. vettel drives like his in a go-karting race and deserves zero points which mark handed him NJ

    2. “you can also clearly see that he did no veering to the right it was only after wheel contact”

      No, you can clearly see that both are driving side by side, with very little room for Vettel, but enough. In the video link below at 0:25 you can see his car parallel to Webber’s, and just one frame later, still at 0:25, Vettel’s car is pointing towards Webber’s (before contact), and then the drives into Webber. Webber drove his line, left room for a car to his left, and was driving straight. Please people, stop being so stupid, I know it is the internet and you can be anonymous with your stupidity, but there are a lot of people on the internet that are not blind sheep, and will rip apart BS propaganda and childish conspiracy theories.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUsafUQGNA

      1. it was the Wheel contact that made vettels car suddenly point right. Look at the replay from vettel’s car and you can see there was no steering to the right. None at all! Plus they were less than half a car length from the left edge of the track

        I am not trying to propagandize anybody, Im just saying that From the whole thing does not seem as clear cut as many are saying.And I still have this nagging suspicion that webber is not innocent

        remember also that the one who profited most was Webber,he was able to remain in the championship lead, the guy who was closest to challenging him in championship standings is now fifth, and if he wasn’t the number 1 guy in red bull, He is now much more closer to that goal.

  117. If you look at distance signs during the on-board video, it is easy to notice that the cars touched even before reaching 150 (meters before the corner) board, which is a bit early to start braking, even considering being off line, with ~20 laps of fuel and on the used tyres. This makes lost-the-car-under-braking argument even a less sound one.

    I think Sebastian just lost it due to serious misjudgement and the only thing he is right to do now is to repeat his childish hand gestures in front of the mirror.

    At the moment, the way RBR and Seb are handling the situation is awful in my view. Mark hasn’t said a single word wrong, being a great team player, though he has every right to give his team mate a really hard time through media. On the other hand, Christian Horner and Helmut Marko laying the blame on Mark, which is really frustrating. Why would you blame a racer for leaving enough space to make a pass and holding his line afterwards?..

  118. I blame both as Vettel shouldn’t have moved right that quickly & Webber should have left some space for Vettel as they should remember that they are team-mates of each other.

    Now I want to talk something different in those five years of Schumacher’s WC days no wonder why Todt, Ross used to have team orders, it will be the Red Bull management that will be responsible for this incident they should have avoided this, can they bring things good between the drivers I doubt.

    1. I liked what Hamilton said after the race about Webber & Vettel’s incident

      “It was like watching the action on wide-screen TV” joked Hamilton on the Red Bull

  119. well, for what it’s worth I think Webber is more at fault. Vettel was in front – I don’t think anyone will argue about that, and you would expect your team mate to give you enough room in those circumstances. It is normal for the guy who has his nose in front to move across rowards the racing line and Webber knows that. I think Vettel was absolutely right to go for the move, it was a good move and he deserved to be in front. By the way, if Red Bull mngmt prefer Vettel, so what? It’s a private team people, they can specify what they want, does it say in the FIA regs that team mates MUST be treated equally? Interestingly Schumi said in an interview that in the Mercedes team they are not forbidden to overtake but are forbidden to collide.

  120. Vettel’s nicer than nice persona out of the window, the idea that webber should have left more space is nonsense, Vettel turned into him , no way he could get out of th eway.

    His gestures and angry rhetoric afterwards shows his real character.

    He had the corner anyway, i dont know why he didnt just veer across more gently.

    1. “His gestures and angry rhetoric afterwards shows his real character”

      as with his silly carry on in the press conference after qualifying. a lot of growing up to do i feel

  121. They’re both stupid. Remeber Vettel and Kubica crash? Similar should of given right then and he didn’t. Mark did the same on Lewis this year too, both drivers are hooligans and should use their head rather then brute force, this isn’t the last of this I expect more team mate crashes later in the season regardless if there is room given or not.

  122. When Vettel was in front of Webber he could no longer see him, and as he was in front, he simply asumed that Webber will pull back to the racing line to try and get Vettel back as you normaly see, like in Button Hamilton situation later in the race, but Webber stayed to the inside of the straight which is foolish, even if they had not collieded. The fact that Webber gets himself and others in trouble very often placing his car on the road badly(in my opinion) speaks for it self!

    1. I watched some replays of many different moves into turn 12 an Webber was basically closer to the inside than other cars actually on the inside is to the iside. And that is super silly squared, especially racing with your teammate when he has no view of you.

      1. Agree with you here mtss. Webber is definitely sticking longer to the inside. He has the right to hold his line and yes, Vettel moves to the right, but I can’t imagine he could not avoid this collision or foresee Vettel moving towards him. Some frustration from both sides here?

  123. Well after reading quotes from Horner and Dr Marko, it would appear there are no team orders at RBR, just so long as Vettel is allowed to lead!!!!!!!!!!!

    Question is, why with only approx 2/3 race distance gone, was Webber told to conserve fuel? Sounds like a poor race strategy there ………….

    1. Horner did expect Webber to yield the position.

      Just watch the video again .. 1:33-1:36 . You can clearly see Horner say “Come on Mark.. MOVE.”

      I personally think Seb is the more talented of the two drivers, however, he is incredibly immature and not so great at pulling off overtaking moves. Mark is pretty careless too, as shown in Australia this year.

        1. That’s a great spot! I missed that.

          You have to assume the mentality at Red Bull, based on the this and comments afterwards is that Webber should have given way.

          Telling ya, the boy has a silver spoon in his mouth, they want him to be like Hamilton. They ultimately want another Schumacher in camp, a poster boy. Can only imagine Dietrich Mateschitz lusts after the reverence Schumacher had in the years he won.

          To that end, Webber is a bit of a thorn in their side. I love it! :)

    1. Ah yes, an even more scientific approach than my own. The use of the red line illustrates perfectly what I was saying, that Webber was moving to the right & giving Vettel plenty of room.

      Perhaps Horner & Marko should have looked at that before shooting their mouths off.

    2. Nice stills but you have to ignore the last one because there vettels car is no longer straight because they already had made contact. But these pictures show to very important things:
      a) Vettel is in front.
      b) He can no longer see him(Webber)
      But also it very clearly shows how unnecessarily Webber was to the inside of the track and Vettels move to the right was as gentle as possible at 200mph. I understand why Webber didnt do what everybody else does – taking the racing line to try and cut back, he was hugly frustrated that vettel was faster than him. And to do so on your teammate in an 1-2 positions is unforgivable.

      1. “Unnecessary”? It’s called racing! Webber saw Vettel coming down the inside and made it hard for him.

        No doubt Christian Horner would prefer his drivers to remain 10ft apart at all times, but you can’t hire a racing driver and then tell him not to race.

  124. Mr Pink & I have watched it again in slo mo, and from every angle available. We also applied some scientific calculations by using Mr Pink’s fingers as calipers to see if there was any truth to the rumour that Webber moved accross. The end result was, that Webber was indeed moving to the left. But, as soon as you see on the onboard camera Vettel come up along side of Webber, Webber moves to the right. So he *was* giving Vettel room to complete the manouvre. Then when he is about halfway past, Vettel clearly steers over to the right in between Webber’s wheels. Webber then steers harder to the right, clearly in an effort to avoid contact. Vettel did touch the painted line right before the contact happened, and I know there were a few specks of rain so it may have been slippery. But it doesn’t look like the tyre lost grip on the kerb. It looks like he just tried to barge his way past. And as for those who seem to think that it is the overtakee’s responsibility to ensure that the overtaker can complete his move, are you for real? Vettel was the one trying the move, therefore the onus was on him to make sure he could get the job done. That includes expecting the person in front to defend, perhaps vigourously.

  125. Fact: vettel was clearly going faster than webber, and would have been far past him had the collision not taken place. Vettel was in front when the collision took place.

    opinion: seeing vettel would comfortably overtake webber, being a teammate webber should have not stayed far left squeezing vettel when the racing line sweeped from the left to the right of that straight. vettel was following this racing line like a normal driver would, and marks inability to accept his teammate was probably going to leave him for dead caused the accident. In my opinion, webber should have yealded the line cause he behind (marginaly) and it was his teammate, fair enough if it was a maclaren, squeeze them, but not a teammate. notice button never went all the way across to the pitwall when lewis came back at him down the start/finish?

    1. Vettel would have overtaken Webber, but Vettel for some reason turned right far too soon, which obviously caused the accident with Webber. If he didn’t turn right, he would have made the pass and there’d be no problem. Webber squeezed but gave Vettel enough room to get by, which is fair.

  126. Close thread!!! the votes speak for themselves!!!
    I dont think Senna, Prost, Schumacher or Mansell would have yeilded !!!

  127. I keep looking a the replay over and over again for the smallest details and a few things are clear.

    Mark did hold his line and was as steady as a rock. Vettel was very unsteady and I don’t know if he turned in as much as he did not have good control of the car.

    They were well outside the braking zone (look from Marks cam) so it was not braking that unsettled Vettel, he just struggles with overtaking and making clean moves.

    He is young and he will improve, but Mark really showed him up today. I hope they can salvage something of their relationship and get the team across the line at the end of the year.

  128. It is extraordinary that most of the comments ignore the fact that a corner was coming up and both Mark and Vettel had to negotiate it. Mark did not go onto the racing line for the corner , instead he held a line to push Vettel into the dirt and off the track, or, crash into him. When Vettel moved for the corner as the video showed Mark should have done the same.

    1. Webber was pulling a classic Sheuy move, forcing Vettel onto the dirty part of the track and slowing him much more that he would normally have too, as they came thrugh the corner Webber would have been able to get back on the power earlier and keep Vettel of line through 10. He would have had much more speed as they entered the straight. Vettel couldn’t handle the pressure.

    2. Paul, can you quote the rule saying you have to take the racing line into a corner?

      If you want to drive up to the corner on a line thats a car-width away from, and parallel to, the inside edge then that’s your choice. And Webber’s choice.

      That Vettel is in a bad position to brake for the corner is something Vettel has to deal with.

      1. “can you quote the rule saying you have to take the racing line into a corner?”

        I think it’s covered by 40.14:

        “If your team wants the other guy to win, don’t do anything that might be considered racing.”

  129. but webber was defending his position, as if he’d just hand the position to vettel, regardless if he was a team mate or not.

    1. But they are team mates Tom.

  130. I would love to hear the team radio before the incident.

    We know Vettel was told he had extra revs and would therefore be able to pass Mark. But did they add something like “we’ve told Mark about this”, or “Mark knows about this”?

    To me, the evidence suggests that Vettel was not expecting Webber to give him a hard time. He expected that Webber would concede the place and get out of the way. I wonder if the team was responsible for creating that impression in Vettel’s mind.

  131. I haven’t read all the previous 412 comments so I am probably not adding anything new to the discussion.

    I am in agreement with the majority in that I think Vettel was at fault for the coming together. From the TV footage it appears that Vettel turned right before he was fully in front of Webber.

    Vettel turned right on Hamilton when they were side by side in the pit lane earlier this season so perhaps he thought the same would happen again.

    The main criticism of Vettel in the past has been that he can only win from the front and he can’t overtake, and on this evidence it would appear that his overtaking skills are lacking.

  132. We should be thanking Vettel for providing us with a piece of F1 history. I am sure we will see that clip for years to come. What a great season it has been so far. Now all the front running teams have civil wars to contend with. Roll on Canada!

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