McLaren told Hamilton Button wouldn’t pass him during the Turkish Grand Prix

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Hamilton asked 'Is Jenson going to pass me?' and was told 'No'
Hamilton asked 'Is Jenson going to pass me?' and was told 'No'

McLaren told Lewis Hamilton that Jenson Button would not pass him during the Turkish Grand Prix.

New footage of the Turkish Grand Prix posted on the official F1 website reveals Hamilton asked the team “If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?”

He was told “No Lewis, no.” This audio clip is shown before the footage of Button overtaking Hamilton, suggesting the exchange took place before the pass was made.

The exchange – which was not aired during the race broadcast – is as follows:

Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis, no

After the race Hamilton said he was “surprised” Button had passed him. Now we know why.

The question now is, was Button ordered to hand the place back?

The following radio exchanges from McLaren were broadcast during the race. We do not know what the time gap was between them being said to the drivers and being broadcast on television:

Lap 44: Hamilton told to “save fuel” and advised that both cars received the same instruction.
Lap 50: BBC reported that Martin Whitmarsh and Phil Prew were on the radio to both drivers.
Lap 52: Button told “We need more fuel saving. Fuel is critical. Save tyres in turn eight.”

Button passed Hamilton at the end of lap 48 and Hamilton re-passed him at the start of lap 49.

Read more: Hamilton ??surprised?? by Button?s pass (Turkish Grand Prix team-by-team)

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269 comments on “McLaren told Hamilton Button wouldn’t pass him during the Turkish Grand Prix”

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      1. The link is in the second paragraph.

    1. Poor article.

      [quote]The question now is, was Button ordered to hand the place back?[/quote]

      Both drivers were given identical instructions to save fuel and were given identical target lap times according to Tim Goss, the chief engineer. This was interpreted by Martin Brundle as there would be no more racing to the finish line as the cars have to save fuel. This is how Hamilton understood it. Which is why he wondered why Button was on his tail and asked if he was going to overtake, so that he had a chance to defend his position. He was told twice “NO”, Button won’t overtake. Then Button sneaked past him. It should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about racing that Lewis fought for that position back with wheel to wheel, wheel touching racing. It was AFTER Lewis retook 1st position, that the team radio said fuel was critical, because it probably was by then after all that extra racing. Lewis was only overtaken by Button after instructions were given to him to slow down and that he didn’t need to defend his position.

      Shouldn’t the question being asked be:

      Who was deceiving Lewis – his team or his teammate?

      This article is a very strange and perverse interpretation of events I must say.

      1. I agree, it was obvious Lewis thought they were both crusing to the line so when Button passed him Lewis flicked into racing mode an retook him, there is no way there was any radio contact during their battle, but after they were both reminded to save fuel to save a redbull style exit. I think its great thi happened though as Lewis now knows the score, I think he will better for it.Great race.

      2. I totally agree with you. It was very obvious to me that Hamilton EARNED his position back by forcing himself on the inside of Button. Bumping his front right wheel against Jenson’s to hold the spot.

        If Jenson really “gave back” the position, trust me, it wouldn’t have happened like that.

        The way I see it, both drivers were told to back off, and Jenson tried to pull a fast one on Hamilton and Hamilton was having NONE OF IT!

      3. Also agree, and love how Lewis can flick into “racing mode” and have the lead of a Grand Prix back within 1 corner of doing so. Awesome.

  1. I guess Button was told something else. Either way it seems they are cool.

  2. I taught so from the second i saw it, button overtook lewis too easily and was given orders tog o back to 2nd place.

    They are not so different from the redbulls afterall!!


    1. Red Bull tell Webber to turn his engine down and Vettel overtakes.


      Mclaren tell Hamilton to turn his engine down and Button overtakes.


      How does this make sense…

      1. Exactly. But hey, it’s British F1 journalism at its best.

        1. Hey S Hughes

          You know we British know how to shoot ourselves on the foot all the time. We do it in all sport by compromising ourselves.

          Let McLaren go on ahead and favour the less talented Button. It can only end in tears. As someone said already, its good this happenend early as Lewis now know the score. SOME AT MCLAREND IS DECEIVING HIM.

    2. Sush Meerkat
      4th June 2010, 14:04

      I read your comment in an Irish accent Paddy.

      The whole “fuel is critical” bit said in a strained voice does sound like it meant “give the place back! FOR GOODNESS SAKE GIVE THE PLACE BACK!”

      1. Or maybe it just meant “Jenson, we did mean it when we said you had to save fuel, we DO want to finish the race please”.

        1. Really? “maybe just mean () we Do want to finish…” Please.

          They altered the race by not allowing drivers to race each other. Its rubbish. There is no point in not allowing team orders when they so obviously subvert the rules with some pretty obvious radio calls. I find it a disgrace really. At least Vettel and Webber raced it out. Man the FIA just make it too easy to hate them.

          1. But they DID race each other, for a bit. The only reason Vettel raced it out was that he was out at his 1st attempt – had he gotten past, we don’t know what would have happened.

            Have you read James Allen’s blog about fuel strategy today? He makes a good point that McLaren and RBR both have been getting on the edge with fuel. While we have no final evidence one way or the other (and we will not ever have that), it seems plausible that teams have been cutting it closer and closer.

            But it is always easy to hate a team, if you want to.

        2. yes yesyesyesyes
          5th June 2010, 18:48

          I would rather see close, wheel to wheel racing and have them running on fumes rolling to the end; somewhat equivalent to a Ricky Bobby -esque sprint to the taladega finish line. Than to have team orders have the race come to a dull end. In my humble but fun opinion.

      2. They said the fuel situation was critical AFTER Lewis over took Button. Button overtook Lewis easily because Lewis (and Button according to the team) was told to target lap times, but Button took advantage of a slowing Lewis (either off his own back or part of a team plan). When Lewis overtook Button, it was not Button handing the place back. I cannot understand how anyone could think so. The instruction about fuel being critical was no doubt because it was critical.

        Fascinating that something that so clearly wronged Hamilton has been construed on this blog as team orders to benefit Hamilton.


        Explains why Lewis looked so unhappy on the podium.

        1. Yeah, I found this earlier an posted in the round up but this does expalin it.

          The reason we were giving before were kind of weak, “he inherited the win” doesn’t explain the total lack of fist pumping and smiling.

          I think he looked relived when he found out Button hadn’t a clue what had happened and just took his chance. An they seem to have sorted it under misunderstanding without any bitterness but what he must have been thinking on the way to the podium. No wonder he looked kinda miffed. Almost makes me felt better, I was quite disapointed when my driver won an didn’t seem happy about it.

        2. Radio transmissions are time delayed. How do you know for sure when that transmission went through?

          1. I can’t believe anyone can think Button was told to let the place back.

            1. He’d have looked annoyed at the end of the race.
            2. He wouldn’t have blocked Lewis to the pitwall.
            3. They wouldn’t have collided into the corner if he was being “let through”.

          2. When the race is broadcast live they are delayed, in these race edits they are in real time

        3. Mark Hitchcock
          4th June 2010, 19:18

          If the team wanted to get Button in front of Hamilton they would not have done it like this.
          If the theory is that Button was told to race and Lewis was told to slow down so that Lewis wasn’t expecting a move…then that’s just asking for a Red Bull style accident.
          We saw how close Button and Hamilton got into turn one when Lewis took the place back, the team would not risk a 1-2 just to trick one driver into letting the other win.

          Same goes for Red Bull, if they wanted to let Vettel through they would not have done it by tricking Webber into slowing down when he didn’t have to because as we saw, passes on track can lead to accidents and the teams don’t want that!

        4. Mate! we are the British aren’t we? i’m not suprised

        5. Fascinating that something that so clearly wronged Hamilton has been construed on this blog as team orders to benefit Hamilton.

          I don’t believe I have “construed” anything. And how was Hamilton “wronged” – he won the race, didn’t he?

          1. @ Keith Collantine

            Please dont insult our inteligence with your “he won the race didn’t he?” or “how was he wronged”?

            LH has to force his way almost doing a red bull take 2 (the two cars bumping each other) for him to retake the position. Does that seems to you like some sort of order?

            Secondly, since you’ve known LH as a racing driver, when have you ever seen him so downcast after a win?

            The fact that you dont think Hamilton was wronged speaks volume about you. How would you have felt being in Hamilton’s postion where you were told to slow down as your team mate was slowing down also only to be overtaken by that same team mate? huh?

          2. LH has to force his way almost doing a red bull take 2 (the two cars bumping each other) for him to retake the position. Does that seems to you like some sort of order?

            No I don’t think it was. But the fact of the matter is Hamilton won the race and I don’t see how any of the conspiracy theories explain that.

            I think conspiracy theories have sprung up to fill the huge gap between what we know and what we don’t know.

            We don’t know what target lap times were given and when. We don’t know if McLaren told Button not to pass Hamilton before he did. We don’t know if, when the McLaren engineers get on the radio and tell their drivers to “save fuel”, that is code for “hold positions”. And so on.

            As I wrote in this comment, based on what we’ve seen so far I think this was an attempt to get both drivers to slow down and hold position which went wrong:


            Never mind that the idea that a team with a multi-million pound budget would hire two world champions and then try to nobble one of them using public radio transmissions is complete madness.

          3. lettucefolk
            7th June 2010, 15:28

            That is not a satisfatory answer…

            He being wrong has no relation whatsoever to winning the race, and that argument is indeed very poor.

            But in any case, you failed to offer your opinion on the matter, at least directly, something you usually do.

            Should we acknowledge this as your way of defending Button or defending McLaren?

          4. haha, seems you can’t win. I swear people were saying the other week that you were using headlines to make Hamilton look good, but now you’re supposedley ‘ignoring the fact that he was wronged.’ Seems that people are in 2 camps- people who are looking for the conspiracy and people who believe the simple answer. And unfortunately, neither party can understand why the other is thinking the way they are, and assume they are biased for/against McLaren/Hamilton/Button. I’m glad it isn’t my job to keep the internet happy!

    3. I dont think so…Jenson’s move was easy and it looked like Lewis was caught off guard especially after the fact that he was told:

      1- slow down

      2- that he will not be passed by Jenson

      presumably, Mclarern ‘forgot’ to tell Jenson ;) ;)

      On the other hand, Lewis is pass was a racing pass. He rode his slip stream down the straight and out-braked him at the 1st corner…

      …”The tangled web we weave…….”

  3. That exaplains why they started talking then stopped in the prescence of cameras just before the podium

    1. Yeah definaterly. I think Jenson knew nothing about it and that the pit wall was trying to control them without explicitly saying it. Hamilton clearly felt lied to and hence the long face. Button had no idea and was probably why he was surpirsed at hamiltons action. Either way I think that in this situation both drivers wont blame each other.

    2. No, Hamilton was talking about Vettel also nearly taking him out.

      He was saying that Vettel did the exact same thing to him (suddenly veering to the right to scare off an opponent), then Button thought he was talking about him when he overtook Hamilton. Then Hamilton explained “no, no, no Vettel”.

      1. Yes, I heard that as they were changing for podium. It just shows you how jumpy these drivers are “Were you talking about me….” and how easily they can jump to the wrong conclusion.

        I think Jensen and Lewis are sound though, good British banter between young British men who share the same culture ie. they understand each other. The problem in the past with two great team mates was different cultures and super size egos.

  4. Everyone kicking off at the Red Bull thing? Looks like Mclaren are just as bad, only problem is people went mention it because people think the team favours Lewis even though this and other races suggest they don’t.

    1. The two situations are not alike. If Button had driven into Hamilton, and the team had then said it was Hamilton’s fault, you’d have a point. This can still be explained as a mix-up from the pit wall. Red Bull’s disgraceful handling of the Vettel/Webber collision cannot.

      1. I meant crash aside. Just leading up to the crash…

    2. Red Bull basically gave a team order by telling Webber to slow down and Vettel to boost up.

      That’s completely different from telling your drivers to take it easy and finish the race a 1-2.

      Also, Red Bull keeps on lying about what exactly happened. They also keep blaming the wrong person for it. Or at the very least they act like Webber should have simply let Vettel past (with a lie as the explanation why).

      1. It is different really, but really that “push the overtake button” line on the Turkey Race Edit makes what’s happened at Redbull even worse, they told Vettle to boost past Mark, while they’d told Mark to turn his engine down, despite the fact both drivers had broken clear of the McLarens, who had come on the radio with instructions to start fuel saving.

        So to clarify, Redbull tried to manipulate the order of their drivers, to prevent the wrong man from taking the championship lead alone, when the danger of Hamilton had faded, an then when said wrong man wasn’t having any of it and Golden Boy caused a car crash, they blamed the car crash on the wrong man, despite clear evidence that it was Golden Boys fault, using Hamilton as an excuse for the moove when they must’ve known he’d started fuel saving by the way he’d started dropping tenths, an only know they’ve realised that they’ve been clocked for all this, have really started to look a little sorry.

        McLaren on the other hand, who operational efficiency is becoming increasingly farcical if we’re honnest, especially by their standards, made another gaffe, an apoligsed for the umpteenth time this season to their drivers, themselves, their fans and the man on the Clapham Omnibus.

        Who really comes off worse?

        1. Actually it was Mark’s race engineer you heard on the race edit saying “push the overtake button”

          1. Everyone needs to realise that it’s a “race edit” with emphasis on the word “edit”. The timings of the radio messages and what we are seeing on screen do not necessarily correlate.

            It would be super cool if we could have a full length race edit. with all the in car footage and radio traffic being available to the editors. The live edit often misses critical things and obviously when your doing stuff live you can’t always choose the best camera angles. That race was so good I have already watched it twice. I might even watch it again.

            What happened between Hamilton and Button is pretty much what I suspected. The only thing I don’t know now is what Button knew and when he knew it. I assume it was a team balls up and he knew nothing. I also think the overtake by Hamilton on button at turn 1 was a real overtake like some other people on here. It was a bit too desperate and lungy for it to be a team orders thing.

    3. There are three differences. First the team did not tell Jenson to “push the overtake button”, second Jenson did a clean overtake, not crash into his teammate and the last point, McLaren did not hide their suprise at Jenson having a go at Lewis and go on to blame Lewis for that.

      The background of these two situations was similar, but Red Bull wanted to switch their drivers and blamed the one who did not blow it, while McLaren did not stage an exchange and admitted there were some miscommunications.

  5. Rubbish Dave
    4th June 2010, 13:20

    Well, given the contact between the two when Hamilton retook Button, I doubt that was orchestrated by the team.

  6. They did tell Jenson to give the place back:

    “Jenson Fuel is critical you must save fuel”

    That sounds to me like “back off”

    1. I don’t think that means let him past. More like ease off and slow down during the race, I don’t think the radio message would have been at that exact moment.

      If Button was to let him through they wouldn’t have made contact would they.

    2. They told him “fuel is critical” three laps after Hamilton took his place back.

    3. Imoldgreg, they said that after Hamilton had re-passed Button so I don’t think it tells us anything about giving the place back. If they had said it when he was still ahead of Hamilton, then it would make sense.

      1. The told Button that 3 laps after Hamilton retook the place back for anyone whos posting without knowing the facts.

        1. How do you know that? We don’t know what the time difference is between when something was said to one of the drivers and when it was broadcast in the race coverage.

    4. Hamilton took P1 back from Jensen on L49 turn 1. The “Jenson Fuel is critical you must save fuel” signal went out on lap 52 some 2.5 laps after the overtaking move by Lewis.

    5. back off after LH RETOOK the place by force almost doing a red bull take 2! how is that giving back?

    6. How could Jenson give back a place he didn’t have. This instruction was given on the 52nd lap. By then Hamilton had already retaken the lead(Begining of the 50th lap) and their was about a second between them.

  7. Here we have a situation of team orders. Wonder how quickly we would have had 300+ posts if it was another team.

    1. So true, people forget that Hakkinen was let through and given the lead by Coulthard long before Ferrari did it.

      1. The drivers had agreed on that situation BEFORE the race though. Hakkinen lost position to Coulthard because of team error.

        Barrichello obviously didn’t agree that he should let Schumacher take his win away.

        1. Barrichello agreed on that situation BEFORE the season though. :P

      2. It’s a lot easier to forget than the infamous and indisputable phrase that was: “let Michael pass for the championship!”

      3. People also ignore the fact that Massa let his teammate through in Brazil ’07. This didn’t just effect the race outcome it effected the WDC.

    2. In 2007 after the Monaco race, McLaren was investigated for team orders keeping Hamilton back in favor of Alonso.

      In the verdict the FIA stated that team orders in the sense of easing off till the end of the races is common practice and does not constitute a punishable offence.

    3. That goes to show, how popular that other team is :-) . Also it would be a lot more for McLaren if most people would not have been tired of arguing about these things after 3-4 days of Red Bulls..t (those threads were up to 300+ pretty fast as well)

      1. I don’t think the Webber Vettel incident received such a reaction because of team orders, at least not to start with.

        Firstly you had two Championship contenders colliding while fighting for the lead, this would mean there would be lots of posts no matter who the two drivers in question were, but as there are teammates it adds something else to discuss.

        Then the thing that irked a lot of people and kept the story going longer was that even though most observers thought Vettel was responsible Red Bull blamed Webber, when the usual thing for a team to do is not to blame either driver even when it is a clear and cut case of it being just one driver’s fault.

        Finally it seems some believe it is a case of team orders with Red Bull telling Webber to slow and telling Vettel to push because they would prefer Vettel to win.

  8. they should ban radio chatter in the last 10 laps.

    1. That’s the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard not to mention dangerous. Drivers need to know what is going on around them and around the track. There could be debris or changing weather, drivers need to be told about these things.

      1. Ther’re reasons for race marshals on the track you know. They don’t just stand there waving yellow flags for fun, more or less “telling the drivers what’s going on around them” that’s why they are there…

        so whats the point having radio chatter for the last ten laps if all your going to hear is: “Conserve fuel.”, “Jenson won’t pass you Lewis” pointless I say. These people should be smart enough to put the right amount of fuel in a car to last the whole race.

        1. The “conserve fuel” phrase is the coded, tv-friendly way to say: “don’t pass your teammate”.

          1. I’d refer you to the strategy guide on James Allen blog if his site wern’t bugging right now.

            Says basically since the first race, the way teams have been running the races they’ve been using less and less fuel, same fuel consumption roughly as Bahrain has Turkey, but the teams put in about 15kilo’s less fuel because there’s an assumption that the places will be more or less settled after the first tyre stop. So they all race super potent mixtures up to the first fuel stop, an then lean out the mixture if they feel their position is assured.

            This race though was by far the quickest of the season, with four cars running nose to tail for 40 laps, an any of them could have won it. The Mercedes is a bit thirstier than the Renault so it’s no suprise that the McLarens got slightly critical on fuel.

    2. maestrointhesky
      5th June 2010, 22:45

      They should just ban radio transmission. That would kill team orders with a single act!

  9. It was interesting that you could also hear Vettel’s engineer telling him he could use his overtake button for a boost on the straight, which is presumably what helped him pull alongside Webber who had already been told to turn his engine down.

    1. Makes it even more disgusting. Red Bull pretty obviously admitted to giving team orders. Seems FOM now wants to cool that down a little and get us hooked on a McLaren discussion.

      But it does give a little bit clearer background to some unanswered questions about Lewis and Jenson after the race.

      1. That’s a little conspricacyeiy man. The Race Edit gave us facinaiting infomation on both McLaren and Redbull.

        1. I agree with Scribe, and there’s nothing ‘disgusting’ about it. They do have different race engineers ya know…and they try to beat each other. move on.

  10. BBC website reports an Autosport Magazine claim that Webbers engineer was ordered by Horner to tell Mark to allow Vettel past but “could not bring himself to do so”
    Anyone got any more on this?

    1. Makes perfect sense yes.

      Vettel wasn’t suddenly pushing like crazy for those last 3 laps just because he wanted to take a better look at Webber’s rear wing.

      He must have been told to overtake. Them telling Webber to slow down and Vettel to boost basically constitutes a team order.

      1. Because team orders have been banned, an the favouritism in the Redbull camp, this form of manipulation seems to be how they’re gonna do it.

        I really hope Webber beats Vettle in the end of year standings, that’ll throw a spanner in the works.

  11. Actually if the team are telling him fuel is critical, and at the end of the race, the car is dry, then they’re not doing anything wrong at all.

    The conversation above could just as easily be Hamilton’s engineer thinking “Jenson doesn’t have enough fuel in reserve to catch and pass Lewis and make it stick over the rest of the race”. It’s a question asking for an opinion, and an opinion was given. The team are not allowed to tell Button not to pass Hamilton, and Lewis would be aware of that.

    Horner actually telling Webber’s engineer “You must let your teammate past” is a completely different scenario. That’s a direct team order to change places, which I don’t see standing up under the rules.

    1. I compltely agree with you Hairs.

      If there was the order from RBR and it seems there very well was then it is a very different situation. It takes away any battle for position and swaps ‘fixes’ (I wanted to use a better word there) the result. I also agree that it’s probably going against the rules too and I wonder if anything will be done about it.

      1. How can you be so sure, have you seen RBR’s data? Can’t it just be the opposite of McLarens situation as Hairs described it above? In other words, Mark had less fuel than Seb and needed to conserve more and the team told Mark this info. Seb has better fuel and is currently faster, he is going to (try) to pass. There is nothing wrong with that, especially with the McLarens constant attack. Everything else seems like rumors from the press. I don’t really care either way, but everyone seems to be making it into such a huge conspiracy, but the teams and drivers from both RBR and McLaren don’t care AT ALL and have moved on (trust me, Webber of all people would let us know if he really cared = he’s very outspoken for an F1 driver) ….I think I’ll do the same.

        1. If Webber’s fuel was critical, all they had to do was tell him that – but instead they told him to move aside. If, by turning down his engine, he gets to the end but ends up getting passed, that’s one *potential* consequence. But it’s not something the teams are allowed to actual dictate to the drivers.

          1. When did they tell him to move aside…I must of missed that. So, he hadn’t turned his mixture down???

    2. Best analysis so far, the “no” to the question about button taking the position is just an opinion based on what the engineer thought at the time.
      Then when button unexpectedly takes the position Hamilton goes into full race mode where very very few in the field, if any at all can match him in identical car’s.

  12. as I said in another post, there are shades of Pironi and Villeneuve

  13. I dont think Button was told to give the place back. Seeing as they both touched and Jenson went very defensive on the straight; doesnt look like a guy who was told to give a place back. Plus the FIA can hear all the messages transmitted from pit to car and Mclaren would have had a fine of some sort by now wouldn’t they?

    However I am pretty sure that Jenson was told to back off after Lewis got the place back.

    1. I think you’ve called that right Zahir.

    2. I was thinking exactly the same.

    3. yeah i disagree when people say hamilton inherited the win. no he didn’t! he ahd a battle with button for 1st!

  14. I’m sorry is this not proving that Mclaren are using team orders which they strongly denie and is looked down on in modern f1. “Subsequently after the 2002 season, “Team Orders that could influence the outcome of a race” were banned in F1 regulations”, bold McLaren!

    1. No, it does not ‘prove that McLaren are using Team Orders’, as if there were what most people think of as team orders Button would not have made a move in the first place.

      The rule is so vague as to be almost useless if the wording you quote is true – orders that ‘influence the outcome of the race’ could include anything from advising a driver to speed up while others are in the pits, bringing a driver in to pit earlier than originally planned to try and jump their team-mate, or telling a driver to change the fuel mix or to save fuel. And how would you decide whether these things are team orders or one race engineer managing to outsmart another?

      If the FIA had been straight when they made the rule they would have worded it to say that teams cannot order a driver to let another on the same team pass purely to affect which order they cross the line in, as that is the specific incident (at the Austrian GP) which inspired the rule change. They did not want to allow another ‘formation finish’ where the No.1 driver in a team was gifted a position by their team-mate.

  15. What I noticed which was very strange was Hamilton’s demeanor as he got out of the car and when he was on the podium. He didn’t look particularly happy at all that he’d won the race. It was very strange, as it was his first win of the season. He didn’t celebrate at all when he got out of the car.

    At first, I thought it was because it was his dad’s 50th birthday and Hamilton was missing him, feeling emotional about the win, maybe wishing his dad was still his manager. All just my own speculation at the time).

    But now I wonder whether he was simply incredibly disappointed because he knew he’d only won the race because Button had been ordered to let him pass?

    To me, though, it looked like he really had to fight Button to get the position back. But maybe they just made it look good. I was surprised how quickly he managed to retake his position.

    Then again, Button looked pretty happy on the podium. So nothing really adds up here!


    1. Yeah, but the fight looked to good not to be true.

      A shame about the speculation really. The one thing that got me bouncing on the sofa has to be real for c… sake

    2. I think Button was making a show of being happy for Lewis to show how he had no hard feelings about being retaken, and that it was just a racing thing rather than the team trying to trick Hamilton.

    3. Typical that you think that Button was ordered to give the place back but I suppose that is what this article implies.

      Lewis and Button were both told to save fuel and target lap times, which means in effect that no overtaking would take place.

      Then Hamilton noticed Button on his tail and asked if he would overtake if he continued his slower pace. Lewis was told categorically “No, Lewis, no” only for Button to overtake him. This is completely unfair and is why Button found it so easy to overtake – Lewis was slowing and not defending as he was TOLD there was no need to. Lewis had to fight to get that position back, bumping wheels at the same time.

      It was AFTER Lewis overtook Button that the critical fuel saving message was given, because the fuel situation was probably critical by then.

      I find it unbelievable but also typical, sad and unjust that this shameful incident of Hamilton being wronged by his team or his teammate is being construed as favouring Hamilton, when the opposite is true.

      1. Button passed Lewis because he made a fantastic move and Lewis had no answer. Lewis returned the favor straight away. Lewis was unhappy because Button sent him a message that Lewis is not in vulnerable. Hamilton won the race. However, Jenson took another bite out of him psychologically. Good show JB!

        1. You’re not well BeenDun. The only way Jenson could have affected Lewis’s psyche is if he could have made the pass stick, which he didn’t. Team orders or not he wouldn’t get another shot for the balance of the race. Jenson don’t possess the skills to overtake Lewis in a equal car when Lewis knows he is coming. That’s a fact!

          1. Not well? Did you see the look on Lewis face ? Jenson was the one celebrating. Lewis got his first win of the season and Jenson robbed him of the joy of victory. One thing Hamilton fans are is loyal and the other thing is dumb.

      2. Electrolite
        4th June 2010, 15:24

        No offence S Hughes, if this were the other way round you wouldn’t have said any of that, though, would you? It was most likely a big misunderstanding in the team, a mix up of signals, and when the two drivers were fighting on the track they were probably just as confused! These things happen!

        As for the tone of Keith’s article you mentioned (a Hamilton article, again) he is simply stating the facts, that’s all of what the article is made up of. The article ASKS if Button was told to give the place back, it doesn’t “imply it”. The misunderstanding led to the overtake, I think it’s safe to establish.

        And I agree, Button was being as defensive as he could on the straight without making any illegal moves, so Hamilton wasn’t just LET past. But no need to be so overdramatic about it…

        1. Overdramatic? Just stating facts.

          1. Electrolite
            4th June 2010, 16:00

            “I suppose that is what this article implies.”

            “I find it unbelievable but also typical, sad and unjust that this shameful incident of Hamilton being wronged by his team or his teammate is being construed as favouring Hamilton, when the opposite is true.”

            Those are opinions, not facts! The rest of the post was fine, and definitely I see what you’re saying – but it could have so just been a misunderstanding, where a die hard Hamilton fan such as yourself interprets it in the most extreme and biased fashion.

            Again, I pose the question – if it had been the other way round, and Hamilton had ‘crept up on an unsuspecting Button’ would you be making similiar accusations?

          2. Don’t know about Hughes, Electrolite, but yes obviously.

            Have you watched the race edit? Hamilton clearly says, if I slow down will Button pass me. The team answers catogorically in the negative, next lap, theres Button making a crack at him. Seriosuly unfair, wrong infact. An if that had happened to Button it would have been just as bad.

            I don’t see how the article implies anything either, pretty nuetral as usual with keiths news posts. Calling someone a die hard Hamilton fan, an I must admit I’m a Hamilton fan, but as a McLaren fan first I can tell you that Hamiltons mood on the podium was completley justified, how worried and baffled would you be, if the team tells you not to worry about your teamate then he nearly sneaks by and steals the win.

            Facts are, McLaren made a screaming mess of their drivers instructions an it’s not being a blind fan to point out that hamilton was seriously wronged.

      3. I agree.

        No wonder Hamilton was somber on the podium. He had been lied to by his team after all.

        I think what this article doesn’t ponder upon is – are Mclaren favoring Button instead of Hamilton?

        The team tells Car no. 2 that he won’t be passed by Car no. 1. If you look at both the overtakes, you can see that Hamilton was caught completely off guard by Button’s move, whereas Button tried as hard as he could to keep Lewis behind, but was unable to.

        To me, it seems that Button passed Hamilton thanks to the team’s help (which is clearly true – cannot be debated upon) whereas Hamilton passed Button without the team’s help (and perhaps – highly debatable, against their wishes too).

        1. “To me, it seems that Button passed Hamilton thanks to the team’s help (which is clearly true – cannot be debated upon)…”

          Okay, let’s not debate that, seeing as you have decided to make it fact!

          I wonder, though… Miscommunication? Or 8 races in, not THAT many to go, and the team thinking that seeing as Button is already ahead…

          McLaren have made the mistake before of having 2 great drivers. Maybe they’ve learnt and are already wanting to secretively make one driver (with the most points) their number 1?

        2. “Lied to” Sumedh? – no, it was a screw up, and button had other ideas. No big deal.

        3. It’s funny how the only people who care about this are Hamilton fans. Hamilton gets passed by Button and it’s the end of the world. Button made a clean pass and took Hamilton clear and simple. It wasn’t because Hamilton had slowed or any other excuse you can conjure up. It was a pass of one driver by another plain and simple. Lewis returned the favor at the next turn so what is the problem? Clean fighting by two world champions. To Button fans it was just good racing. To Hamilton fans it’s like some horrible, unspeakable event took place that has to have an explanation. Hamilton can be passed. Button can pass him. It’s not the end of the world.

          1. It’s funny how insults about Hamilton fans (calling them dumb, etc) don’t get removed from this site, but other insults do. Hmmmm.

          2. Because in this case it’s not an insult. It’s a fact. Let’s see some more 1000 word posts from you rationalizing why Button was able to pass Lewis. Just like the rationalizations created to explain why Hamilton is not destroying his teammate like everyone said he was going to. Hamilton isn’t destroying Button because he can’t. If he could, he’d already be way ahead by now.

  16. I don’t think it was team orders, more like miscommunication between the team to Hamilton and the team to Button

  17. Or it could just be that Button saw an oppertunity to make a name for himself! Sly and Devious!

    1. I assume this is a joke.

  18. I once again have this constant feeling in F1 that I’m missing something. I’ve seen some comments that Button is being favoured and I’m at a loss. Yes, this could well have benefitted Jenson had Lewis not fought back. However, I read this (I reiterate I could well be wrong) as a case of just plain and simple miscommunication/ wires crossed between the two garages.

    There just doesn’t seem to me, to be any concrete proof of favouritism. Mclaren want to win obviously but to covertly fix their own 1-2? I don’t think so.

    I get Hamilton’s anger I really do, I;d be fuming as he so easily could have lost but I think it was a situation that arose out of clumsiness. I do think the order for Button to save fuel was mostly legitimate but possibly Mclaren trying to get back no top of the situation after the confusion and not wanting to crash.

    1. Well, said, I feel quite similar about it.

      I tend to believe in clumsiness and miscommunication over clever scheming; maybe I am naïeve.

      1. Well we are in the same naive boat :P I like to think of it as just looking on the bright side myself.

        There is one bit I don’t really like
        “Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
        McLaren: No Lewis, no”

        I don’t thnik there is favouritism at all but that doesn’t really make things look good. Obviously it was wrong anyway but the idea of maintaining position is good for a team etc but robs Jenson of a fight if he had been cleverer with fuel. Similarily I’d say this if it was the other way round. Although even when there was refuelling I suspect that many times 1-2 positions were encouraged to stay in the same order so I think it is perhaps about a wider issue than just Mclaren possibly.

        1. There is nothing wrong with teams not wanting their drivers battle till the finish line.

          They had 30 seconds to Webber’s damaged car and well over 40 seconds to Schumacher.

          If they allowed Hamilton and Button to race then both would have had to continue at max pace. Unnecessarily stressing all the components. This could result in failure or the drivers taking each other off.

          From the team’s perspective that’s pretty much unwanted.

          Again, the FIA already said that nursing the cars in formation to the finish is OK.

          1. I know there’s nothing wrong with it from the team’s point a view. Hell, if I was manager I’d want them to cruise to the end and maintain order but it is something I don’t really like that’s all I’m saying. In an ideal world, well in my little dream world, they’d all be battling it out right across the line but with the risk of crashing and/or fuel issues that isn’t possible. I understand it but I’m not a fan.

        2. Well you tell the truth to the driver. Lewis wasn’t explicitly asking for Jenson to be held back, he wanted to know if the fight was still on. He wanted situational awareness from his race-engineer.

          The response should have been “You are critical on fuel, you must slow down or fail to finish, we can’t make any promises for Jenson, watch your back”.

          Then at least Hamilton would know where he stood, and he could have driven accordingly, slowly but defensively.

          To tell him “No” (twice in one sentance), left him out on the track bent over, wide-open and ready to be done-up and done-in. His quick understeering, dirty-side braking, cut across the Turn 1 kerb saved that whole McLaren team from exploding Sunday night.

          Poor judgement call by the McLaren pitwall … again. Imagine if Hamilton had someone like a Smedley in his corner, instead of a procession of innacurate, analysis-paralysed McLaren droids.

          1. “. Lewis wasn’t explicitly asking for Jenson to be held back, he wanted to know if the fight was still on”

            I’m not critising Lewis, he had every right to ask that I’m saying Mclaren should have got their facts right.

          2. That’s what I’m saying as well.

            If there wasn’t a deal, and Jenson insistes no-one said anything to him, then why tell Lewis something which is fundamentally not the case.
            What on earth were they expecting to happen, what’s their thought process, one driver told the race was over and the other still going full-bananas?

            That whole pit-wall seriously needs to have their heads clanked together. They badly need to raise their game, they are falling down on the job.

          3. definatley, McLarens supposed Leigon of super efficient muticulousotrons are making screamer after screamer, it’s a new system an all, but team management and race controll are getting a little to amusing for their own good.

          4. Indeed. McLaren need to think about how to get their drivers (or just Hamilton?) the best information, without leading them to wrong conclusions, such as happened here, or with China pits for Hamilton based on unclear info on weather/tires.

            And Hamilton needs to learn from Button: do your thing, and let the team tell you if you misunderstood.

          5. I agree, he needs a competent engineer to cover his back on the pitwall. The one he has now has show himself to be lacking under stress in a number of races.

    2. There is something strange going on at McLaren between Hamilton and the pitwall. At practically every race they seem to be at each others throat. Bad pit stops, wrong tires, bad communication,etc. I think he can forget a WDC this year and should either consider requesting a new engineer for next season or moving on to something else.

  19. Untitled258
    4th June 2010, 13:42

    Its bugger all to do with Mclaren lying.

    Its more likely that the team told them both to save fuel, presuming they would settle in place and they wouldn’t do anything stupid, but Jenson saw the opportunity to over take and took it, hes a racing driver, what do you expect?

    People are always way to Happy/Quick to cry foul when it comes to anything done to Hamilton.

    1. My thoughts exactly. If it was the other way around I have no doubt that Lewis would have had a pop at the lead himself.

      1. I hate ‘ifs’!!!!
        How about this: If Hamilton hadn’t passed Webber & Vettel while they lay on the side of the road, he wouldn’t have won!!
        Rubbish, innit?

        So, Dan Thorn, take your conditionals out of here!

        1. I hate ‘what ifs’ too, particularly when it applies to unique scenarios. This is different however – Hamilton had no hesitation in passing Button at Melbourne, and I’m sure that at Shanghai he’d have had a go if (yep there’s that dreaded word again) there were 10 laps to go and not 2 when he caught him. In the future there may well be a reversed scenario to Turkey and as long as there isn’t a definate “hold position) call going out to boths drivers the I’m 100 certain Lewis would try to pass Jenson. The greatest racing drivers don’t get anywhere by bending over for team mates!

    2. Untitled258, and how about ‘people are always way too Happy/Quick to have a go at Hamilton when it comes to anything he’s done’.

    3. I agree, Jenson stated afterwards that he “had to have a go”. Although Lewis was rightly surprised, the team did not lie.

    4. Spot on. Jenson stuck Lewis with a solid move and Lewis had no answer. Lewis gave it back to JB immediately. Exciting racing from both of them. Jenson was fine and happy on the podium while Lewis looked miserable.

      1. DeenDun. Lewis was miserable because he was specifically told Jenson wouldn’t try and pass him, an then he did.

        He must have felt lied too, he must have felt like his beloved McLaren team who he’s been with since the age of 13 were slipping away from him, he must have been really quite angry.

        Why is it weird that people say Lewis was hard done by, we’re not saying it was malicious but clearly something went badly wrong within McLaren, an it nearly robbed Lewis of his third big points haul of the year at the hands of his team, due to operational error, again!

        1. Scribe, Lewis got one upped by his teammate. He may have taken the victory, but Jenson had the final word. Lewis was supposed to crush Jenson this season. The crush never came.

          1. You’re just a complete and utter idiot.

          2. S Hughes. The truth hurts mate. Reality seems to be the thing Hamilton fans hate the most. Keep talking and thinking your right. Lol.

          3. Possibly one-upped if the move had stuck, but Jenson was re-overtaken almost immediately.

            You’re also extrapolating fan predictions (Lewis crushing Jenson) and pinning it on the drivers themselves. I’m sure Lewis always thought he could beat Jenson (vice versa as well), but one driver “crushing” another is fan talk.

          4. Simon, the move stuck. Were you watching the race? Lewis had to follow Jenson down the main straight. The Lewis made his move and took the place back. The message was sent regardless of whether or not Lewis won or not. All a thinking fan had to do was look at Lewis’s face on the podium. Jenson was hopping around like a kid at Christmas. Lewis won the race but Jenson communicated his point.

          5. BeenDun, you’ve got a biased perspective on truth mate. Button probably received the message, even with his teamate unsuspecting and and due to a team assurance not deffending. He still couldn’t make a move stick for more than a mile. Were you watching the race?

            An Hamilton had every right to be annoyed, his team had told him exactly the opposite of what was true, regarding his teamate.

            You clearly can’t be argued with, your points are illogical an your language insulting.

          6. Err, in what exactly did Jenson have the final word????
            He overtook Hamilton due to Hamilton slowing down as per team orders, and managed to lose the place!

            Crush or no crush, apart from points haul, Lewis has beaten Jenson this year by every other parameter – and we are not even halwfay through the season yet!

          7. @BeenDun – you’re arguing semantics here. By “not sticking”, I was referring to the fact that Jenson was almost immediately overtaken again.

            What I’m saying is that it’s hard to put a convincing case together for Jenson having one-upped his team-mate in such circumstances, unless you want to argue that Lewis only managed the subsequent overtake because Jenson backed off and let him through again.

            Sure, you could also argue that Jenson might have passed again had he not been told fuel was critical (ie. back off). On the flip side, Lewis said “if I back off, will he pass me” just before the dual took place – so it’s a circular argument. If neither one backs off, there is little chance of an overtake.

            As for why Lewis looked the way he did on the podium, I don’t think you’ll find that every thinking fan came to the same conclusion as you did.

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