Red Bull claim front row and leave their rivals gasping (Hungarian GP qualifying)

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Hungaroring, 2010

Sebastian Vettel will start from his fourth consecutive pole position of the year at the Hungaroring after Red Bull dominated today’s qualifying session.

He and Webber locked out the front row of the grid ahead of the two Ferraris – who were over a second slower than the RB6s.


The first 20-minute session showed how much some of the front-runners were struggling as McLaren and Mercedes had to do extra runs at the end of the session to ensure they progressed to Q2.

Michael Schumacher and Jenson Button made important improvements with their final efforts to spare them from the embarrassment of being knocked out in Q1.

Eventually Kamui Kobayashi fell into the critical 18th place, forcing him out of qualifying at the first hurdle along with the new teams. He was held up by Bruno Senna on his final lap.

The six new cars were headed by the Virgin of Timo Glock, who beat the two Lotuses by a tenth of a second.


Button was clearly concerned about whether he’d reach the top ten from the moment Q2 began. He went out on super-soft tyres while his team mate stuck with the medium compound.

Mercedes also doubted their ability to get through into Q3 and sent both their drivers out on the green-striped tyres.

When it came down to the final laps, Button struggled to improve on his second run on the super-soft tyres. At first it looked as though he’d been let off, as Rubens Barrichello failed to take advantage of his lack of pace.

But Nico H???lkenberg was able to beat Button’s time and relegated him to 11th place.

Only one of the Mercedes made it through and one again it wasn’t Michael Schumacher, who could only manage 14th, 0.8 seconds slower than Nico Rosberg.

Webber was the fastest of the two Red Bulls in the second part of qualifying, beating Vettel by four hundredths of a second having been the last of the pair to set his time.

It looked as though what time the Red Bulls took to the track in Q3 might decide pole position. But it didn’t work out that way.


There was never much chance that anything other than a Red Bull was going to be on the front row of the grid. Fernando Alonso’s 1’19.987 lap was probably the bet his F10 could manage and he was best of the rest – but over a second slower than the pole sitter.

The battle between the Red Bulls was a brief affair. Vettel beat Webber with a lap four tenths of a second quicker than his team mate.

Webber couldn’t improve with his last effort and that left Vettel on pole position for the seventh time this year.

Several drivers couldn’t find more time than their second runs, including Lewis Hamilton, who nonetheless lined up fifth behind Felipe Massa.

Robert Kubica failed to capitalise on Renault’s performance and not only failed to beat Hamilton but was out-qualified by team mate Vitaly Petrov for the first time this year.

Red Bull have lost races from pole position already this year. But they’ve never had a performance advantage as great as this. Can anyone catch them tomorrow?

Full qualifying times

Pos. # Driver Car Q1 Q2 Q3
1 5 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1’20.417 1’19.573 1’18.773
2 6 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1’21.132 1’19.531 1’19.184
3 8 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1’21.278 1’20.237 1’19.987
4 7 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1’21.299 1’20.857 1’20.331
5 2 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1’21.455 1’20.877 1’20.499
6 4 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1’21.212 1’20.811 1’21.082
7 12 Vitaly Petrov Renault 1’21.558 1’20.797 1’21.229
8 11 Robert Kubica Renault 1’21.159 1’20.867 1’21.328
9 22 Pedro de la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari 1’21.891 1’21.273 1’21.411
10 10 Nico H???lkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1’21.598 1’21.275 1’21.710
11 1 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1’21.422 1’21.292
12 9 Rubens Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1’21.478 1’21.331
13 14 Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1’22.080 1’21.517
14 3 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1’21.840 1’21.630
15 16 Sebastien Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1’21.982 1’21.897
16 15 Vitantonio Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 1’21.789 1’21.927
17 17 Jaime Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1’21.978 1’21.998
18 23 Kamui Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1’22.222
19 24 Timo Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1’24.050
20 19 Heikki Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 1’24.120
21 18 Jarno Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 1’24.199
22 25 Lucas di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 1’25.118
23 21 Bruno Senna HRT-Cosworth 1’26.391
24 20 Sakon Yamamoto HRT-Cosworth 1’26.453

2010 Hungarian Grand Prix

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Image (C) Red Bull/Getty images

90 comments on “Red Bull claim front row and leave their rivals gasping (Hungarian GP qualifying)”

  1. Well done Petrov. Not well done Kubica. Half a second off the Q2 pace is rather bad. Why oh why did Renault decide to keep them in the garage for so long – the ‘I drive later than you do’ strategy is way too risky…

    I hope it rains and Vettel doesn’t win.

    1. Petrov did way better than i would have anticipated, good on him, well done that man.

      RBRs are absolutely fast compared to everyone else in qualifying its not funny anymore.

      only hope is Vettel misjudges his swing on Webber and they take each other out at the beginning.

      look forward to the start the rest i presume will be boring. no sure!

      1. Seems both Petrov and Hülkenberg are beginning to shed off their rookie mistakes and start getting to getting the most out of the car. Good job.

        Lewis Hamilton and Alonso also got the most out of what they have available.
        The RBR has so big an advantage, they should be feeling really bad not to be leading both championships by a comfortable marging.
        I just hope for some action at the start tomorrow so Vettel will not lead after the first corner. Otherwise it will be pretty boring up front.

    2. To be honest in Q2 Petrov was on fresh tyres while Kubica wasn’t. In Q3 Kubica killed his tyre by one mistake and that was it. They should release him early on old tyres first and then go for final lap on fresh tyres. Renault mistake.

      1. Exactly, Robert made a mistake in Q3 and Vitaly didn’t. I’m glad to see Petrov getting more and more comfortable with the car. I hope we will see both Renault drivers in the points for the rest of the season.

        1. Especially since Petrov was doing q3 on used soft tyres.

          1. Great result for Petrov! Renault should haul some points tomorrow.

  2. This is brutal!!

    RedBull-Ferrari gap = 1 second

    Ferrari_Mclaren,Renault gap = 0.8~1 second

    Mclaren,Remault – rest gap = another 1 second

    Even in Q3, the field is covered by more than 3 seconds!!

    F1 will become boring if these gaps don’t reduce

    1. I disagree. Just look at the 1970’s and the gaps between drivers at some races. The disadvantage/advantage from race to race kept things interesting and dramatic.

      1. Im with Ellott. Red Bull were always going to dominate this weekend. And thats the beauty of this season, as although Red Bull are amazing in qualifying trim, different tracks suit different cars.

        Fast forward a few weeks to Monza and Red Bull may have issues.

        1. But in the 70’s it was more about the driver than the car… not so much in the late 70s however. Today (almost literally lol) it is totally about the car apart from the very top 2 – 3 there really isn’t much to choose amongst the best drivers in the world.

          1. You don’t even have to go back to the 70’s. Nigel Mansell regularly took pole by over a second in ’92.

          2. And thus, we are back to the big argument that always occurs in F1. Technology or athleticism, its a balancing act. Do I think the current points standings in F1 reflects driver ability? I think not, but name the last season when this way the case.

  3. Nathan Bradley
    31st July 2010, 14:38

    It’ll be difficult for anybody to beat Red Bull, but the run to the first corner is fairly long so that might give Alonso/Hamilton a chance from the clean side.

    Also, watch out for the battle between Alonso and Massa. I don’t think Felipe will defer to Fernando at the start, could be interesting.

    Also, the chance of Jenson being on a different strategy from 11th, maybe start on softs, pit very early, then run the rest of the race on one set of hard tyres?


    1. I’d imagine Button would do the opposite. Start on soft and pit late. Seems to work quite well for him normally. The soft are clearly faster and seem to be lasting.

    2. Looking forward to see how the McLarens perform at the start. With neither Ferrari or Red Bull running an F-duct, I can see Hamilton being right in the mix at turn one, and Button making up a few places too.

      1. Ron in Michigan
        31st July 2010, 19:40

        Yeah, i keep thinking about that too. But the overwhelming pace of the Red Bulls, should he manage to get by one or both of them, means it will only be a matter of time b4 he is overtaken. Then again, this track is constantly changing and it will be difficult to overtake. Factor in how quickly the leaders will start to lap the slower cars, likely b4 the first pitstop, and the will be a very interesting race tomorrow.

        I have to admit F1 2010 season is shaping up to be a real cracker.

      2. mm, I think you are confusing F-duct with KERS.

        F-duct is not going to give you any kind of boost from the starting line to Turn 1 on Lap 1. Rather, it will help you later on in the race.

  4. Vettel won’t win… Even with Mark starting on the dirty side…

  5. Wow, I didn’t realise Jenson was just 0.02 of a second from coming 9th in Q2! Ouch.

    That Hispania car looks even worse than normal on this circuit. Watching Senna and Yamamoto trying to keep it on the road was painful. Must be frustrating for Senna to see the guys he beat in GP2 in 2008 in faster cars in F1.

    1. Great lap from Vettel. Stand out performances, De La Rosa and Petrov.

      Agree with EJ. Mclaren need to stop moaning at Red Bull and build a car that’s quicker.

      Hopefully Vettel will win to close the gap on the McLarens to make the title more exciting.

      1. Hopefully, Alonso can slip into the race lead at the start. That would make an exciting race. Just imagine a car that is a second a lap faster behind you for the entire race.

        1. lol. i dont even want to think about it :P

  6. Let me give a congratulations to the WHOLE design team who have had input and “say” in the concepts incorperated into the RB6. Everyone talks about how great the car is but the team of designers go unmentioned, as great as Newey is, he is head of a team and I think it’s unfair how the “Mclaren Development team” and “Ferrari Design team” get credit for their car’s evolution but the WHOLE group of designers get no mention. Please use “Newey and his team” or “RBR Development Team.”

    1. Well said.

      Newey might say “I’d like to try a blown diffuser again”, but it’s the team that goes away and makes it happen.

    2. Newey is the design guru in F1. This was a long time coming. Remember last year RB were fast and for most of the season they were lacking a blown diffuser.

      What I find shocking is Hamilton’s quote:

      “Our car is the best is it has ever been. I don’t know what the hell they are doing, but it’s incredible the pace they have here.”


      This coming from, in my opinion, the best driver on the grid is something.

    3. Yeah just like we always celebrate the mechanics and engineers who help set the car up and the strategists and computer whizzkids at base and Gary Paffet for his simulator work.

      The thing is we celebrate the people who bring the biggest speciality. That’s people like Hamilton and Newey.

  7. Younger Hamilton
    31st July 2010, 15:03

    Well done Lewis salvaging P5 for the McLaren Gooners but Jenson P11 its slightly dissapointing but i dont blame him, the car this weekend has been terrible Redbull have been aliens and untouchable this weekend 1.7 secs quicker than Lewis in Q3.McLaren has to pull out a lot of things after tommorrow and just get very close to Red Bull as possible.Like EJ said and i totally agree with him,STOP COMPLAINING AND GET ON WITH the Flexi wings if the FIA says its legal its declared Legal alright,then get on with the flexi legal wings design and stop Red Bull.Jesus Christ,Whitmarsh is really using the BBC to complain and thats not right.

  8. Yamamoto just a tenths behind Senna :|…

    1. Yeah, he put in a great lap right at the end there. He is obviously getting used to the car now. Although the Hispania car is clearly very very hard to drive this weekend and maybe a bit of a leveler, normally Senna is within touching distance of the Virgin cars, who have now pulled away.

  9. Younger Hamilton
    31st July 2010, 15:10

    Anyway both McLarens on clean side of the Grid and with F-Ducts onboard i think Lewis might get himself up to 3rd at best he will clear Felipe Easily,but i hope that Lewis gets on the Podium tomorrow.Jenson should get up to at least 7th same advantage as Lewis and its Likely that he’s gonna chose the Prime tyrs and try and go on a long run to cement up some places for himself.McLaren really need to save themselves again tomorrow.

  10. Petrov out-qualifies Kubica – on bad rubber!

    Makes me wonder what he could have managed if he hadn’t done his final lap in Q2; he was very safe then.

  11. Yes, but will the Red Bull be the fastest car to never win a WC? I agree Keith, they are so far ahead it’s a bit scary, except for the fact that they are RB, and they have been a bit inconsistent turning polls into race wins. Ummmm and notwithstanding the fact that I’m a blatant Alonso fan I didn’t pick them to win it.

    I’m so impressed with Rosberg that I’ve quit making excuses for MSC. That kid is fast! I’d love to see what he could do in a RB or a Ferrari.

    @ Christian that HRT was frightening to watch. I’ve never seen anything like that outside of Paris to Dakar. Watching that… I can almost think that Luca makes sense when he wants 3 car teams, but I’m not that drunk yet ;)

    1. The great thing about this year is it remains so unpredictable. Despite Red Bull clearly having the fastest car they’re still not leading the championship. Going into every race there are still question marks over them, will Vettel get a clean start? Will they have the quickest race pace? Will they break down? Will they crash into each other? Will Christian Hornder’s left foot ever stop shaking?

      They should run away with it tomorrow yet I don’t think any of us will be surprised if they completely mess it up

      1. Completely agree Ads21. I don’t get why people are complaining that it’s boring. Red Bull aren’t even leading the title and like you say more often than not mess up an easy 1-2 finish.

        Infact haven’t Mclaren got the last two 1-2 finishes this year?

        1. Ferrari had the most recent 1-2 in Germany last week.

    2. Agreed, that’s a good performance from Rosberg, I’d expected it to be close between him and MSC this year, but Rosberg has performed amazingly well :)

    3. That Hispania is indeed frightening to watch. I would not be surprised to see both cars beached or in a barrier at some point tomorrow.

    4. what about Newey’s own MP4/20?

      that was fast… and unreliable…

      1. The 1991 Williams car was very fast yet unreliable as well. Although with the 1992 car they sorted that out a dominated, they then dominated 1993 as well.

        Can Red Bull do the same?

  12. Was Petrov the surprise delight, or Kubica the surprise disappointment? Perhaps a bit of both. I actually don’t mind seeing Seb on pole now – with the memory of his last two starts fresh in his mind, the tension and pressure will feel like a mountain…on the contrary, Webber could use that to perhaps get the jump yet again, it’s a longish run down to that first corner. Even better if a shower washes away the advantage of the clean side…

  13. If Vettel or Webber do not win both, the WDC and WCC for Red Bull, I think they should be sacked.

    I dont remember seeing a car that superior to the rest of the field (except for a few reliability issues).

    1. The same goes for Christian Horner too.

      I don’t know how long you’ve been following F1, but Ferrari dominated from 2000-2004 with Michael Schumacher. In 2002 they won 15 of 17 races, ironically that had a team order controversy too.

    2. Mummm. Also.

      McLaren days with Prost and Lauda and Prost and Senna.

      1. Don’t forget the Williams heydey with Mansell and with Prost, if not for Senna’s accident it might have continued in 1994 as well.

  14. Jelle van der Meer
    31st July 2010, 16:00

    As mentioned on the blog – to my knowledge is the 1.18.770 the fastest time around Hungaroring since track was extended in 2003.

    More interestingy – adding Vettel’s best sectors together he even comes to a 1.18.636.

    1. No, it isn’t, Barrichello drove a 1:18.436 in pre-qualifying in 2004.

  15. polishboy808
    31st July 2010, 16:12

    Oh god, eager to impress his team, Petrov will be ruthless and wreckless with his attacks, I can see him clipping somebody, or worse, his own team mate!

    1. “Vitaly, Kubica is faster, do you understand?”

      For a guy who still fights for his contract he quite can’t refuse such “suggestion”, which in these circumstances can be given.

      1. I don’t think Kub has a shot at the champ though

  16. Vettels pole lap is simply astonishing!
    If Red Bull continue like this into next year, half of the grid won’t be able to start the Grand Prix because of the 107% rule!

    1. jsw11984 (@jarred-walmsley)
      31st July 2010, 23:32

      I think the exceptional circumstances would cover that one!

  17. If dry…Vettel for the win…
    If Wet…Petrov for the Win for Sure…

  18. Rosberg 0.8 seconds ahead of Schumi… that’s a huge difference. And Niko is very consistent these days, while Schumi is going through ups and downs.

    1. Yes, I agree. Still: says Schumacher actually used a set up geared towards race pace, or something. They gambled that the weather would be dreary, but lost when temperatures rose during the morning.

      Not sure what sort of setup that is, but while it reduces the lack of pace of Schumacher it again shows that he and Brawn are not anymore on top of strategy as they used to be. Maybe lack of testing gives them insufficient knowledge about the car and tires? I guess they are now counting on making good at the start.

  19. Watch Vettel because we all know he’s going to make a poor start and foul everyone up into the first turn meaning more people having to avoid him off the track as he goes wide…like what happened in Germany

  20. Three things worth mentioning:
    – Four of the last five Hungarian GPs have not been won from pole.
    – Red Bull have never managed to convert a 1-2 on the grid into a 1-2 in the race.
    – Not since 2005 has the driver starting 2nd in Hungary managed to retain his position at the start…

    1. …Therefore;
      – Sebastian will definately not win.
      – Red Bull will definately not get a 1-2.
      – Webber doesn’t have much of a chance against a certain someone in P3.

      Of course that’s only if things go by recent races and the history books!

      1. jsw11984 (@jarred-walmsley)
        31st July 2010, 23:34

        Or, Webber will pass Vettel, because it doesn’t say which way P2 goes now does it?

  21. So are they going to clarify the rules regarding these flexi wings? The replays of the cars during quali were crystal clear. Red Bull and Ferrari wings are blatantly “skipping” just off the tarmac, while the Renault and McLaren wings are a lot higher and more rigid.

    I’m sure the other teams are working on their versions of flexi wings but the FIA should clear this up.

    1. I’m not sure it’s the rules that need clarifying but perhaps how they actually test the wings.

      1. I see where you’re coming from. It seems to me that the teams that want to be “cute” when it comes to interpreting the rules, purposely design whatever it is that is illegal (flex-wings, etc) to conform to scrutineering while the car is stopped but when the car is on track the element, wing, etc. then does whatever it is that the teams want it to do that is outside of the scope of the rules.

        I forget which team it was a couple of years ago that designed their rear wing elements to squeeze together at top speeds, so that it would eliminate the gap between the two elements and therefore reduce the rear wings efficiency while going down the straights. If I remember correctly, the wing elements would stay rigid when the stewards hung the test weight off the back wing, but when the wing was under greater stresses, it would squeeze together to get the desired effect.

        1. ‘Simple solution’: a team found to have deliberately engineered a solution that breaches a regulation but circumvents FIA’s test parameters should have all points gained with the implemented technology subsequently removed. There’s an important difference, I think, between using a technology ‘probably’ not allowed by the regulations – and hoping it’ll escape notice (a while) or maybe even be allowed (checking it with FIA for example), and designing ways for known regulation breaches to avoid official detection.

          That just isn’t how F1 works, though, is it?

          1. I see your idea, but how do you calculate how many of their points a team has gained because of one or another component? Unless you take away all their points…?

        2. In 2007 they revised the tests for flexible floors (because of Ferrari’s floor) and rear wing (because of Red Bulls flexing rear wing).

          For instance:

          I don’t see why they wouldn’t change those tests after being confronted with clear evidence that there is so much flex in some front wings.

          Although Red Bull and Ferrari are trying to convince us (lie to us) that the wings are not flexing at all. That it’s just a figment of our imagination or the angle at which a picture was taken.

          1. So were you this worked up over Brawn’s diffuser or McLaren’s F-duct?? – Both of which did not meet the spirit of the rules?

  22. US Williams Fan
    31st July 2010, 16:58

    impressed with de la rosa………….

  23. Alonso to take Webber and Hamilton to take Massa at the start. Button also on the clean side should gain a place or two. No chance for Webber, he’ll do very well to keep Alonso behind and needs a prefect start. Only if Vettel messes the start up big time will he lose the lead (just don’t try and drive people into the wall, again, and all will be fine)

    Its easy to get disillusioned and say the rest of the season will be boring but Ferrari and Mclaren will be closer on the faster circuits, even so it doesn’t look that great teams other than red bull apart from 1-2 races unless something miraculous happens in the development race.

  24. Did Ferrari not run the f-duct? I know it won’t make much difference on a track like this, but could the lack of the f-duct be affecting Ferrari?

    I know Red Bull were thought to be more suited to a track like this (where handling is more important than top speed), but still an advantage of more than a second can’t be explained this way. Just last week Ferrari was only two-thousandth of a second behind Red Bull in qualifying and were superior in the race, and now they are more than a second behind? It’s just weird! Either it’s Newey’s genius or there is perhaps something undetected in the Red Bull that’s giving them such performance(just a presumption).

    I hope Alonso gets a better start, but Massa could again spring a surprise. But I have a doubt – is the track dirty on the odd numbers side (1st, 3rd…)or on the even numbers’ side (2nd, 4th, etc.)?

    1. As far as I know, Ferrari tested the cars in the practices with and without the F-Duct and they found the car performed better without it so aren’t running it for the weekend.
      Odd numbers are clean and even are the dirty side. I doubt Massa can spring a surprise since he’s on the dirty side of the grid, but who knows? I think it’ll depend how good a start Alonso and Webber have if he’s to have a chance and I’d say he’s more likely to get nabbed by Lewis at the start if anything.

      1. But still, how things change! A week ago two-thousands of a second behind and now more than a second behind?

        In an ideal grid where all the teams are close in terms of pace, that would translate to nearly ten cars behind! Surely Red Bull has some gimmick which the FIA isn’t able to detect (not just the flexing front wing). OK it’s handling is better, but that still doesn’t account for this massive difference in just a week’s time. It’s almost as if Red Bull is in a different league – Formula Super-1!

        Red Bull pioneered the exhaust blown diffuser and the controversial active ride height, if I’m not mistaken. There must be something else too that is benefiting them, inspite of having a relatively underpowered engine.

        Or it could be Adrian Newey’s brain that’s making the difference.

  25. Now i cant figure out whats going on with the Mercedes Gp team. Is Rosberg just a better driver this year and shows what the car can really do, or is that schumi can’t match what he does in the car and just makes the car look worse then it is?

    Because I feel Rosberg is one of the few drivers this season who is making their car go faster then it’s meant to, and really grabbing that thing by the scruff of the neck with both his own hands.

    Maybe Mercedes should concentrate on helping Nico having a better car rather then suiting to all “Michael’s needs”. Nico is nearly 60 points infront of Schumi and looking to extend it again after tommorow.

    If they put the effort in, at the end of the season he could still catch up to Alonso and Co. All Rosberg needs is 1st two/three times and he would be back in the hunt.

  26. Yes a round of applause of Yamamoto for this answer to his critics. Watching him drift that unruly thing around the final corner like a World of Outlaws car you have feel for those last few guys on the chart. It must be like driving in a rain storm with slicks at all times for them.

  27. Is there any reason to believe Vettel won’t have a terrible start tomorrow? He has some kind of issue with the RB6 starting system. If he starts like he did in Germany, with this long run to turn one, he’ll be P6 by lap 2. Webber is doomed, I’m afraid and will likely end up behind Alonso and Hamilton before turn 3. The dirty side here is horrendous.

    Hamilton is now trying to put out a house fire with a garden hose as far as the WDC. He has to consider getting Webber behind him, and delaying at least one of the circling sharks, an epic victory tomorrow. Button’s second lost-the-balance-in-FP3 sob story and failing to get out of Q2 in three races is not good enough. The team is in straits and they need both drivers to be supernatural now and he is just not transcending the car, ever.

    Whitmarsh’s long face talking to Buxton about the diffuser-wings was too grim. The shot on Speed of an RBR mechanic getting on the ground to inspect the underside of the front wing endplate tells you all you need to know. How is a wing, that is by rule supposed to be several inches off the ground, that needs to be checked for wear on the bottom between qualifying sessions, within the rules? Whitmarsh must rightly feel crossed because with regard to the F-Duct, instead of playing dumb he told everyone, explained the concept, and had the FIA come check it first. That good deed was punished brutally.

    1. Good comment. I agree all the way around.

      The start is going to be crazy tomorrow.

      As for the wings, I couldn’t agree more. McLaren was straightforward with the FIA about the F-duct and Red Bull have been and still are lying about their wings flexing.

      I have to tip my hat to Ferrari though for copying the flexi wings. They saw the advantage of them, they figured out how they worked, added the wings to their package… and most importantly, they know that even if the FIA some how decides that they are indeed illegal, that both Red Bull and Ferrari will receive ZERO punishment for breaking the rules and lying about it. They will simply have to take off the wings and enjoy all the points they scored with them.

      Just like last year with the double diffuser. If the FIA had decided that they were illegal, they couldn’t have punished Brawn for it. It was way too late for that. And Brawn, toyota, et al. would have had to remove the double diffuser. Brawn might not have won the championship if it had played out like that, but the FIA surely wouldn’t have taken all their points from those first 4-5 GPs.

      So basically, Red Bull and Ferrari are in a win win situation here. If the FIA clears the wings, then they are both ahead of their rivals in terms of flexi wing development. If the FIA bans them, oh well, they benefited for a couple of races with them and get to keep the points b/c the FIA isn’t going to take a bunch of points off of both and let McLaren coast to the championships. Fans would be ****** off.

      1. Someone’s oblivious to the realities of F1.

        McLaren did not come out and say about the F-Duct until the suspicions were strong enough that the majority of interested people knew how the system worked. No F1 team will release information that will help rival teams for nothing, the only little giveaways are stuff that the rival engineers have already worked out.

        The F-duct is, IMO, a far ‘worse’ technology and should have been banned, it’s an ‘active system’ not defined in and clearly against the spirit of the rules, but that’s history now.

        Whitmarsh is just playing PR mind-games, and in your case they seemed to have worked.

        1. Uhh…McLaren consulted with the FIA when they first developed the F-duct. FIA cleared it.

          When the other teams became suspicious and said it was illegal, McLaren told ’em to take it to the FIA.

          Now if you are suggesting that McLaren lied to the FIA during F-duct development, and when the other teams asked for clarification and the FIA wouldn’t/couldn’t deem it illegal for whatever reason…i’m down for some conspiracy theories.

          I like stories.

          1. Oh, the same people that cleared RBR’s wing?

            So why are you complaining? Not McLaren enough for you?

  28. Electrolite
    31st July 2010, 19:06

    Everyone scoffed at Petrov coming in 5th in practice – but it was obviously not a fluke. Good luck to him tomorrow!

    Who else is betting on Vettel making a hash of a start again? Me.

  29. Horner explained that Vettels clutch had a little oil on it last race and that they have fixed the problem, so if that is true Vettel should have fine start tomorrow.
    His pole time was faster than the standing track record of Schumis from 2004: 1:19.071 – Impressive, but lets see what FIA verdicts re the front wings.

  30. something should be done about the ineffient fia test done on flexible wings… if its 85mm then it should 85mm at all times no matter what the load???

    1. The load test must be representative of the conditions during a race or qualifying, not more. It is difficult for the FIA to blame the teams from developing to pass the tests, regardless of the intention behind the tests. From an engineering point it is smart to try to bring forward a wing which is very stiff within the loads applied during tests, but much more flexible at higher/other loads.

  31. Many surprises today most important of them is Button failing to go to Q3, but what bout the Red Bulls once again they are on pole & again like Spain they just blew their rivals.

  32. I bet Vettel does his normal “try to run somebody off the road” start. Just who will it be this time?

    1. What Seb need to do is drive in a straight line regardless of how good a start Webber gets. If he tries to pinch Webber then Alonso will eat Seb’s lunch.

  33. Massa might make yet another great start and might be able to overtake Alonso, same thing geos to Vettel. It might be a good race.

  34. I am a Schumacher supporter, ever since his Senna days. Regarding his performances this year, I simply can’t explain it too, and its a bit confusing, amusing and stressful at the same time.

    On one hand, there were the majority of races where he was extremely slower than Rosberg, 4 tenths, 6 tenths or 8 tenths – consistently slower! Naturally, at first everyone assumed it due to him being rusty (Lauda, Prost), then perhaps that he simply wasn’t used to the tires (Sutil, Hamashima), perhaps that the car totally opposes his driving style (Button, Herbert) and everything he tries to set-up around it simply makes it extremely worse (Schumacher), or perhaps he’s simply lost the fire and the determination he had before (Hamilton), and so on. However, then eventually as the races pile up and the bad results pile up, people start to give up and concede, – yeah, perhaps he’s simply ‘lost’ it (Stewart, Irvine, Moss, Webber, et al).

    But then, what about the races when he’s equally quick or even quicker than Rosberg? Australia, Spain, Turkey, Monaco, Germany, where either he was faster, or else the difference was simply 0.00XX of seconds between them? I mean, – what happened here? What went right here that went so wrong in the other races? Did the car transform itself? Did Rosberg have a poor day? Did Schumacher have a good day? Did he catch up with the tires situation? Was it a fluke? Considering that Australia was only just the second race of the year, and only Schumacher’s second race in four years, and he was only 0.014 seconds slower – which is almost a hair’s width. How quick is that?

    Now there are also a group of people who think that Schumacher is actually doing a pretty good job, hasn’t lost it yet and just don’t write him out (Vettel, Hakkinen, Haug, Hill, Alonso, etc) and that the true gap is actually much closer that it seems (Rosberg) and soon it will become more and more difficult to beat him.

    Therefore I can’t explain the logic and actual causes behind all this. But given all my experience with him, from reading all about his biographies (Hilton, James, etc), and trying to study the man in detail, the only conclusions I can give at the moment is that..

    1) In terms of the driver – Schumacher hasn’t lost it. He’s pretty close to what level he was before (Brawn). F1 is highest level of motor racing in the world, and to quantify it in numbers, considering before he even turned a wheel in the Mercedes, in his retired, dormant form, lets assume his driving ability dropped down to 80% (of maximum), then it took him fifty laps (in March) to reach 85%, another hundred laps (in April) to reach 90%, (which I think is his present level), it would probably take him another thousand laps to reach 95% and another five thousand laps to reach 99%.

    2) In terms of the car – I’m pretty certain that it is like some kind of ‘cultural shock’ to Schumacher. He never drove such a car like this in his life before. It is not perfect for Rosberg either but I think suits him more than it suits Schumacher. Moreover, I believe Rosberg’s engineering team are doing a better job of setting-up the car for Rosberg (Jock Clear), and that Schumacher’s team are still unable to set things up for him (Andrew Shovlin), or else I won’t blame his engineering team, but it is Schumacher himself who is trying out extreme set-up settings which often just makes the car worse for himself (Gary Anderson). And I think Schumacher doesn’t mind it himself too, he simply wants to experiment, try out things he never tried before, enjoy, have fun, and take his time to ease into his return.

    Although it is true, that Schumacher drove brilliantly in the under-performing 1996, 97 Ferraris (Eric Bernard), but at that time he was at his peak driving ability. I don’t believe that Irvine wasn’t good, because Irvine drove with Barrichello at Jordan and they were equal, and Barrichello then drove with Button and they were equal too. Therefore in summary, to conclude things ..

    This is a 41-year old, 90% ability Schumacher, less ruthless and lesser ambitious, driving in an under-performing car, without the benefits of testing, and he’s still ABLE to match Rosberg – 5 out of 10 races, (50% of the time).

    It is a scary thought, – but just think how good he must have been, and how good he CAN still become.

  35. @Tom

    Tom said:

    “Oh, the same people that cleared RBR’s wing?

    So why are you complaining? Not McLaren enough for you?”

    So you’re telling me that RBR told the FIA: “hey we have this wing that will pass scrutineering as far as ground clearance and rigidity, but it flexes when its on track. That’s cool right?”

    I highly doubt it. They lied to the FIA about what the wing does and how it behaves. Great it passes muster when it’s parked but it sure as hell doesn’t pass when its on track. So if they told the FIA that it flexes against the spirit of the rules and the FIA shrugged and said “ok”. Then I have no problem with it. Problem is, I doubt they told the FIA exactly what it does.

    1. ‘but it sure as hell doesn’t pass when its on track’ – what are you on about?

      It flexes in the test, by an acceptable amount (and the FIA have the right to change what is acceptable, but have deemed it not required).

      It’s impossible to have an infinitely stiff wing, and the FIA has tests to mandate what is acceptable. RBR’s passes, so there is no issue.

      Whether there is a system actuating changes behind it is irrelevant, it meets the regulations (and IMO is far less significant than F-Ducts/double diffusers that the FIA has ruled acceptable).

      1. I never said anything about it being “infinitely stiff”. It’s stiff enough to pass the tests and its obvious on camera that it is flexing on track in excess of what the rules deem acceptable. Apparently, then the FIA needs to come up with a better test.

        “Whether there is a system actuating changes behind it is irrelevant”

        Irrelevant? Really? So you are basically saying that you don’t care if a team is cheating. Good to know. So I guess it would be cool if say Lotus decides to put on an active suspension and maybe even a turbo charger b/c you know…who cares what the rules say.

        Anyways, I’m done with this. We just disagree on it and that’s that.

        Congrats on your team’s win today.

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