“I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders

Felipe Massa, Fernando Alonso, Hockenheimring, 2010

New video of the German Grand Prix published by FOM reveals how Fernando Alonso urged Ferrari to order Felipe Massa to let him pass.

Alonso said to the team “I am much quicker than Felipe” and was told “we got your message”.

Because of the editing of the video it’s not clear how much time elapsed between that and the infamous coded instruction to Massa ordering him to let Alonso pass.

When Alonso tried to overtake Massa on lap 21 Rob Smedley told his driver, “he’s pretty close, he’s going to go, you’re going to have to defend.”

Massa was later advised, “you need to pick up the pace because Alonso is faster.” After the race Massa sounded thoroughly unimpressed when he told them, “so, what I can say? Congratulations to the team.”

Ferrari were handed a $100,000 fine for using “team orders that interfere with a race result” and “bringing the sport into disrepute”. The World Motor Sport Council will decide next month whether they will face further penalties.

The move was widely condemned by fans, with 78% on this site calling for Ferrari to be punished.

This is not the first time material published by FOM online has shed new light on the discussions between teams and drivers during a race. After the Turkish Grand Prix FOM published a new portion of McLaren’s team radio showing Lewis Hamilton was advised Jenson Button would not overtake him, shortly before Button did.

Ferrari team orders controversy

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315 comments on “I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders

  1. RobertsLV said on 4th August 2010, 11:39

    Keith, when he was behind Alonso, Red bull flex wing wasn’t working as good as in clean air.
    Ok, 2 seconds – i was exaggerating, but sometimes he could lap almost second faster. The point is, that in dirty air his speed advantage dissapeared, and he couldn’t overtake him, so he decided to back off to set the fastest lap of the race.
    The same was in Hockenheim. When Alonso got close behind Felipe, he was slowed down.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 4th August 2010, 11:53

      I appreciate that. Still, Alonso took advantage of traffic to have a pop at Massa, and he didn’t make it work. He might have had another chance with the Virgins later on (innuendo ahoy!) but he went off the track trying to keep up with Massa. So I don’t think it was clear-cut.

      • CLK_GTR said on 4th August 2010, 12:06

        Alonso could have made the move stick if he was more aggressive but he had to give more room as Massa is his team mate.

        Ferrari does not have much of a chance of the WCC so what is wrong pooling their efforts for the WDC. It is the second half of the season and Massa and Alonso are not 1 and 2 in the WDC.

        The spirit of the team order rule is till one driver is out of the championship running. Why should theoritical chance be the basis for this? Massa is on life support in the drivers champonship, it is fair for the team to make the call that his 2010 is done for him even if all the fans against (80% of this blog)Alonso do not agree with it.

        • DASMAN said on 4th August 2010, 13:36

          Agree with this post – also for everone calling for Alonso to rather overtake if he’s quicker, note that there was scarcely an overtake that day. If the bulls couldn’t do it, how much harder is it against your own team mate in the same equipment? Hamiltons retake of Button in Turkey required then to bang wheels remember? Ferrari can not afford another DNF. Was the only thing ferrari could do IMO.

          • tharris19 said on 4th August 2010, 16:57

            So they banged wheels, they were racing! Isn’t that what it’s suppose to be about. DNF are also part of racing.
            Ferrari had a choice and they chose to manipulate a results and not to race. Notice I didn’t say FA or FM, just Ferrari.

        • Felipe F1 said on 4th August 2010, 15:39

          I do agree with this post as well. This whole thing is a lot of nonsense but it keeps us entertained :).

  2. BasCB said on 4th August 2010, 11:45

    Not really good music. All of this situation at Ferrari it really looks like they had some sort of agreement about the slower one letting the faster guy past with some parameters (gap smaller than 3 or 5 secs, the one behind closing up the gap, etc.) and all of them were pretty much aware what was going to happen when Felipe was not able to drive away from Alonso constantly.

    If not team orders, it was clearly team tactics to arrange who was in front, no excuses about it. I doubt Massa did let him by from his own conviction, even if he had a theoretic possibility to just ignore the teams wishes.

  3. Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 4th August 2010, 11:54

    What was said —

    Alonso: “I am much quicker than Felipe.”
    Ferrari: “We got your message.”
    Smedley: “Fernado is quicker than you. Can you confirm that you understood that message?”

    What I heard —

    Alonso: “I’m stuck behind Felipe. I told the Spanish press yesterday that I could still win the title, but I’m going to look really silly if I don’t win this race when I’m faster than Felipe.”
    Ferrari: “We got your message.”
    Smedley: “Felipe, Fernando is more worried about his public image than the team’s. Do you think you could move over, and we’ll show him what it means to be a Ferrari driver?”

    • Gill said on 4th August 2010, 12:07

      Stop this nonsenscical hypocritical nuisance. Its a team game.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 4th August 2010, 12:35

        I’m sorry, hypocritical? Ferrari are the hypocrites here: they attack everyone in sight for allegedly manipulating a race outcome in Valencia, but when they go ahead and interfere with the racing, it’s perfectly justified! That’s hypocracy for you. Formula 1 might be a team sport, but that doesn’t give Ferrari the right to go and brazenly manipulate the outcome of a race because to do so would give them a better championship standing. I can understand that and would even support it if we were in the final phase of the championship and Massa was no longer a championship contender, but Ferrari have simply gone ahead and done whatever they felt like and expect to get away with it because they’re Ferrari and they’re under the mistaken impression that they’re entitled to play by a different set of rules. Ferrari need to be slapped down and put in their place as hard as possible. Hopefully this will come in the form of a ban from the Italian Grand Prix, with the FIA making it absolutely clear that Ferrari’s failure to show is a direct result of their actions. If Alonso were to win the World Championship this year because of what happened in Hockenheim, I think I’d stop watching the sport. So who’s the real hypocrite here? Me, or Ferrari?

        And in case you hadn’t noticed, the above post is intended as a joke.

        • chris said on 4th August 2010, 12:55

          if this race you think that manipulated then what mclaren done in Hockenheim 2008??? That whas not manipulation -team order- to heiki deliberately give the position to the FASTER then hamilton…Heiki whas mathematical out of the championship there?? NO!!! Some people just remember what they want to remember… That is hypocritic views….

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 4th August 2010, 13:42

            I don’t remember Hockenheim 2008, because I didn’t watch it. My entire 2008 was spent doing something much more important that staying up until midnight to watch the races. As a result, I can only comment on what I know.

            Whatever the case, the FIA cannot retroactively change the results of a race that happened two years ago, just as Ferrari cannot be allowed to get away with it simply because there is an histoical precedent. Starting now, teams need to be called into account for their actions.

          • dragon said on 4th August 2010, 14:14

            RE Hockenheim 2008: Lewis drove a storming race to victory, but part of that was a lovely concession of position by Heikki. The perfect number 2 driver.

          • Becken Lima (@becken-lima) said on 4th August 2010, 14:29

            McLaren used team orders in 2007 to stop Hamilton chase Alonso at Monaco — because of that they received a penalty and that could be the same one to Ferrari this year…

            So, McLaren was “hypocrite” too and used team orders well before Germany 2008, but clearly to favor Alonso against Hamilton…

            A collateral effect os this mess is that because of Massa fail and Alonso demonization by our press and world press — and by the fans, as we can see here —, there’s an interesting phenomenon happening in Brazil: Hamilton is strongly increasing his fan base among F1 fans here.

          • DaveW said on 4th August 2010, 14:49

            Not Hockenheim 2008 again. Let’s go to the film. Hamilton blew by Kovalainen, just like he did everyone else on the track(twice), including Felipe Massa, like he was chained to a post. Are people really suggesting that Kovalainen should have made a drama out of it by making Hamilton pass on the outside instead of the inside or whatever was contrary to Hamilton’s first choice? What joke. Did Kovalainen come to virtual stop on the track to let Hamilton by? No, he just failed to do the only thing that would keep him back—hit him at the apex of turn 4. If you examine the defense of Massa against Hamilton’s move, the only difference was the Massa chose to pointlessly drive off the track after he lost the line in turn 4. What about Piquet, was he under orders from Dennis to yield to Hamilton? It seemed that Piquet all but drove off the track to get out of the way of a pointless clash and preserve the best possible position for him, 2nd. So any analogy between these two situations is reduction to absuridity, so to speak.

            Let me make the filing now required by Tifosi: I’m not British.

        • bananarama said on 4th August 2010, 13:27

          Maybe Ferrari felt like: when others manipulate and cheat, thats ok. So lets try cheating, maybe it will be ok too.
          I’m just guessing though.

          • DASMAN said on 4th August 2010, 13:41

            I think many confuse manipulating a race result and manipulating the order of your cars in a race. The former will most likely (should)get you thrown out of F1, the latter has been happening since the beginning(legally and illegaly).

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 4th August 2010, 13:46

            Ferrari have always felt there should be one set of rules for themselves and one set for everyone else. Remember 2007, when they prosecuted McLaren? It wasn’t the first time someone was caught with their car designs – Toyota engineers had access to Ferrari documents several years earlier, but no action was ever taken. And why not? Because Toyota weren’t racing Ferrari. Ferrari have consistently proven that they will do whatever they feel like to win a race, and the rules be damned for it. Rules are for lesser mortals. They’ve convinced themselves that they are Formula 1 and that the sport would die if they left tomorrow. The problem with that statement is that they need every single Formula 1 fan to feel the loss – and I already know that if they announced their intention to quit, my initial reaction would be “Nice knowing you”.

            And in the case of Valencia, that wasn’t McLaren interfering with the rules. It was a result of a late steward ruling. But in Germany, it was all Ferrari.

        • chemakal said on 5th August 2010, 15:33

          I see Prisioner, you have a very selective memory. Remember 2007 but not 2008 (much more important things to do). Anyway, lets stick on 2010. Team orders by Ferrari ended up with FA in front of FM: NO HARM TO OTHER TEAMS, NO POINTS STOLEN TO OTHER DRIVERS. Manipulation races I call when: Hmilton changes 4 times direction so Kubica cant overtake: no penalty. Hamilton finishes Qualifying pushing his car: no penalty. Hamilton races in the pit stops twice against SV and FA: no penalty. And of course Valencia, Hamilton deliveraty stops when he sees SC approaching to leave Alonso behind it, misscalculating and ilegally passing the SC. Gets the penalty 20 laps later to hold position. ALL THIS IN 9 GPs, STEALING POINTS TO OTHER DRIVERS. THIS IS THE maFIA MANIPULATING

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 5th August 2010, 16:13

            This talk of the FIA “manipulating” things to favour Hamilton bears no relation to the facts.

            The FIA have not shied away from punishing Hamilton when he deserved it – Europe 2010, Australia 2009 and France 2008 are just three examples.

            Hamilton’s line-changing in front of Petrov (not Kubica) in all likelihood did little to prevent Petrov passing. Hamilton was trying to brake the tow, not weaving to stop Petrov getting alongside. Still, the stewards want to discourage that kind of driving so they gave him a reprimand. That was exactly the right response: we haven’t seen anyone do it since, have we? (More on that here: Drivers as stewards make presence felt as Hamilton gets black-and-white flag)

            And ‘racing in the pits’, as you call it, has been done by other drivers including Alonso (Germany 2008) and, just as with Hamilton, has gone unpunished.

            Returning to the point – because this article is about Alonso, not Hamilton – the test of whether something is considered a team order is not whether other teams were ‘harmed’ or other drivers lost points. According to the regulations, team orders which affect the result of the race are prohibited.

            Clearly, without reference to what may or may not have happened at other Grands Prix, Ferrari affected the result of the race at Hockenheim by using team orders. I don’t think anyone can seriously dispute that.

    • Manu said on 4th August 2010, 20:00

      Totally ridiculous and definitely not funny.

    • Steph90 (@steph90) said on 4th August 2010, 21:24

      ” “Felipe, Fernando is more worried about his public image ”

      To be fair, right then I think Alonso was thinking of the points not if he’s going to get any TV time and magazine deals.

      Becken you make a good point but

      “McLaren used team orders in 2007 to stop Hamilton chase Alonso at Monaco ”

      I can actually see why they did that. It was a strategy call which is perfectly fine but throughout the year Fernando and Lewis were allowed to race. I think it was wise they didn’t at Monaco because it is well Monaco and if Seb and Web can crash in Turkey then God knows the carnage that could happen at the principality :P

  4. mikee said on 4th August 2010, 12:06

    The FA fans that turn their back on him because a TV presenter blasted cheat on BBC after the german GP and lier regarding Singapore 2008 are not real fans
    it is widely noticed that the british reporting team BBC who are Ex ITV F1 are pro Hamilton and Anti Alonso
    Ferrari have done nothing wrong
    it is the presenters that started a hornets nest
    if it had been Hamilton or Red Bull i doubt we would have heard a thing said about it
    still this is my opinion
    Maclaren cheated Alonso out of a back to back WDC in 2007 to back Hamilton that was team orders wasent it
    Denis said after the China GP we are racing Alonso as well as the Ferraris
    problem is that Alonso was in the other Maclaren F1 car
    Funny aint it

    • LOL, so those are not real fans/not real Alonso fans, so what???

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 4th August 2010, 12:38

      Ferrari manipulated a race outcome. They brought the sport into disrepute. Tell me again that they did “nothing wrong”.

      And McLaren did not cheat Alonso out of a title. Alonso was the architect of his own demise. He assumed he would lead the team and that Hamilton would be subservient. He lost the championship in Australia, not Brazil. By the time the 2007 Chinese Grand Prix came about, Alonso had already distanced himself from the team.

      If Alonso can do no wrong, perhaps you can answer me this: how come he hasn’t won a single race without help since traction control was banned? He won in Singapore 2008, but only because Piquet crashed to benefit him. He won in Bahrain 2010, but only because Vettel’s car gave up. And he won in Germany 2010, but only because Massa moved over for him. Explain that, please.

      • bananarama said on 4th August 2010, 13:34

        In fact, he also won in Japan 2008. Don’t remember the race, so maybe you can tell me how it was cheated there.
        (Just want to mention that I’m not an Alonso fan)

      • Charlie said on 4th August 2010, 13:47

        Erm *cough* Japan 2008 *cough*

        Though that was also because everyone fell over themselves at the first corner.

      • monsol said on 4th August 2010, 21:59

        Yes, of course Seb broke down his car in Bahrein on purpose, just to help Fernando (because Botin bribed him, that’s why)

    • BasCB said on 4th August 2010, 12:57

      Actually if McLaren had given Button the instruction to let Hamilton pass at this point of the season, the uproar would have been much greater.

      First of all, Button is just as popular as Hamilton in Britain, and secondly McLaren is very focal about giving equal chances.
      They wouldn’t hear the last of it for another couple of years from fans and the british media.

    • tharris19 said on 4th August 2010, 16:47

      Be careful Mikee, you are presenting your feelings as fact; they are not the samething.

    • michael mair said on 4th August 2010, 17:39

      absolutely spot on ! ps anyone wishing to join the we hate fernando club should contact mr E Jordan . c/o BBC television

    • tharris19 said on 5th August 2010, 0:30

      I didn’t need the british press to confirm what I saw and heard nor did most people who watched the race. Ferrari manipulated the outcome of that race in Alonso’s favor because Felipe did as he was told and then had the nerve to poo poo about it for the rest of the day.
      And as for Alonso getting cheated out of WDC by McLaren in 2007, that’s an illusion to people unwilling to face the fact that a rookie was his equal. McLaren told him (Alonso)if he wanted it then win it. Kimi won it, by being the best in Brazil, it’s as simple as that.

      • Carl27 said on 7th August 2010, 0:28

        Correction, Kimi won it by being left to pass by his Ferrari team mate Felipe who was the best and fastest driver that day. So it may not be as simple as that. Otherwise FA should have been the winner that year while LH was “hanging around” the circuit with his Mclaren.

  5. AgBNYC said on 4th August 2010, 12:20

    This is WAY overblown. Ferrari was punished with the fine. Alonso was faster – it wasn’t like they impeded other drivers and let a SLOWER Alonso past! If you can’t be a little careful with your teammate, what’s the point? Also telling Hamilton that Button won’t attack – that is not a team order to tell Button “not to attack”? Telling a faster driver he must hold station is much worse than making it quasi safe for the faster driver to get through!

    Alonso may or may not have been able to scrap his way through – but he was faster and not a single other driver or team was affected (unlike the Hamilton SC incident or Vettel holding up the entire field in Hungary – that he shot himself in the foot doesn’t matter). Again, Ferrari was punished – why should it not be enough for them – when reprimands and feckless penalties are enough for other teams??

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 4th August 2010, 12:40

      Ferrari was punished with the fine.

      Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute. The last time someone did that, they got banned for life. So tell me again that a fine of a hundred thousand dollars is punishment enough. At the very least, Ferrari should be banned for a race or two.

      • AgBNYC said on 4th August 2010, 13:27

        The only time Massa was faster than Alonso was at the start when Vettel pushed Alonso against the wall. The faster car won the race while minimizing the risk to eachother. They were punished – no not black flagged by the marshalls or banned thereafter which could have been done.

        If you’re talking about Singapore and Renault – and really believe deliberately causing an accident, risking the lives of people and totally changing the outcome of the race (Alonso was what 6th?) are equivalent to this… Well, that pretty much says it all.

        Disrepute? Yes, for the stupidity of an unenforceable rule, a rule that is flouted every race Sunday and applied selectively – and a rule will be scrapped.

        Having Button (or anyone else) “hold” station is much more “manipulation” – than allowing a faster sister car through.

        • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 4th August 2010, 13:32

          I doubt the team orders rule will be scrapped. Not when audiences react so poorly to a team using them.

          • DASMAN said on 4th August 2010, 13:46

            It should be – I say screw the audience who don’t like/understand team orders. They can watch tiddley winks or something. Maybe then we can stop messing with F1 for the sake of “the show”, *gag reflex*

          • monsol said on 4th August 2010, 22:27

            Not true, most of the time at least. Certainly, there are team orders pretty much in every race and every team. And of course they affect the results of the race, but only rarely there is a reaction from the audience.
            The problem with the Schuey-Rubens affair in 2002 and the recent Fernando-Felipe thing (beyond the anti-Ferrari bias in British media) is that both Rubens and Felipe (or maybe I should say Rob Smedley) complied with the TO quite grudgingly, making a big show of it. Audiences do accept TO but they don’t want them to be so blatant.
            It sounds cynical, I know (go ahead with TO but don’t make it obvious), but the point is that the rule is unenforceable and should go.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 5th August 2010, 11:14

            Sorry, DASMAN, you can call me old-fashioned, but I’d rather see good racing decided by a driver’s skill rather than a race outcome decided by the teams because it suits them better.

        • “The faster car won the race while minimizing the risk to eachother”…

          “Yes, for the stupidity of an unenforceable rule, a rule that is flouted every race Sunday and applied selectively – and a rule will be scrapped.”

          So you are saying scrap Sunday and racing all together, we know from qualifying who’s fastest anyway, right?

          • AGBNyc said on 7th August 2010, 17:20

            IF people like things black and white – F1 and many, many other things are not for them.

            Qualifying is NOT the race and there is a reason “they play the game”… does it really need to be spelled out? The fastest car in qualifying isn’t always the fastest car in the race – breakdowns, SC, weather etc. all have a role in the outcome of a race. But to say all team orders are the same, or it’s always cheating is unbelievably naive. It’s like comparing Singapore ’08 and Ferrari easing a faster sister car through. Currently the rules prohibit ANY team orders… Ferrari were caught and penalized. IF the penalty was not enough… each has their own opinion – and they may still face further sanctions. But the “fanboys” will insist that team orders, masked or not are ok when told to “hold” station etc. when it involves “their” team.

            I don’t know if any of us are in F1 – I’m certainly not – but look at the comments from say Mark Webber – I think his thoughts carry a bit more weight than any of ours on what REALLY happens. The “holier than thou” attitude held by many… is the definition of hypocrisy…

      • David-A (@david-a) said on 4th August 2010, 16:19

        “Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute. The last time someone did that, they got banned for life.”

        Comparing Singapore 2008 and this incident is nothing but silly. Ferrari’s actions swapped the order of only their two cars around, with no danger to spectators or marshalls. Renault’s actions not only endagered lives, but jumbled the order of the whole field, heavily disadvantaging Massa, Raikkonen and even Hamilton, while allowing Alonso and Rosberg (blameless guy) to magically lead the field.

      • Carl27 said on 7th August 2010, 0:32

        #Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute# where you born yesterday? the sport has been brought into disrepute SO many times before this…1989, 1990,1994,1997,2002,…. the list could never end.

  6. Patrickl said on 4th August 2010, 12:22

    The clearest indication of team orders form me was the radio message when Smeldey told Massa that he “could still win this”. This was when he was in the lead, 6 seconds ahead of Vettel and Alonso obviously unable to pass him.

  7. Hmmm, surprising amount of people who are defending FA…

    Either you can overtake or you can not, what’s with “I am much quicker”??? No wonder he got kicked out of McLaren, he probably shouted it every lap when he’s behind LH.

    Racing is about risk taking, what Ferrari’ve done is totally the opposite direction and unnecessary. Yes, RBR raced and crashed, but they are still in a better position/have the best chances in the championships, and they can be proud to be a true racing team

    • chris said on 4th August 2010, 12:37

      The surprising thing is that some people have short memories…and forget what ALL the teams have done ALL these years…And believe the reporters and what they say… What DC told to the bbc: “team orders take place IN EVERY RACE”-“That is not the first time this year that we have team orders”…. What Brundle said: “team orders rule is just unworkable because the TEAMS ARE USING TEAM ORDERS EVERY RACE”… They are former drivers, they know from the inside what the teams doing…. RBR true racing team??? You can ask Webber’s feelings after silverstone qualyfing….

      • Not going to discuss TO. I said it was unnecessary, just like Ferrari in 02′. let’s say all team have done TO, but the fact is: the TO ban was created only after what Ferrari have done, Ferrari is the first to get it banned. It’s not a random effect IMO.

        Who care about how Webber felt/feels??? Racing team means they go racing, RBR may favor Vettel, but with RBR Webber still can race, will have more chance to win more races than Massa finishing right in front of Alonso, well just about everything is more likely to happen than that.

        • chris said on 4th August 2010, 13:20

          If it was unnecessary you can say it only in the end of the championship… If alonso win this year championship for less than 7 points…then you can say what was necessary and what not… The same done mclaren with hamilton in germany gp 2008 (heiki gave his position to lewis)…that whas unnecessary??? I don’t think so…Lewis win the championship for ONE point….So why massa’s move was unneccesary??? What you say is a random effect…because if ferrari will take a ban in the WMSC then must hand back ALL the championships from 02 and after when the rule exists because all these years the teams are using TO…So the ferrari ban will not be a random ban??? I share the opinion of DC and Brundle TO RULE MUST BE SCRAPTED!!! Why some people think that the teams must be use coded messages to give team orders (what is not good??? the TO orders or the way you give them??)??? If we have a rule that force the teams to cheat to us is better (because we the fans don’t understand this as team order) than have not have a rule and the teams done what they think is good??? F1 is a team sport and all the teams want to win the WDC and not give to an other team… Think in a football match one teams gains a penalty…if the score is 0-0 who is going to shoot the penalty?? The player that they have the MOST chances to score a goal or that that the coach-team- thinks that he has the most chances…

          • Well, maybe it was necessary for Alonso to win the WDC if Alonso isn’t good enough to do it all alone. Alonso thinks every win is special, so if he is happy to win that way so it’s fine by me, but I for one do not support it.

            DC and MB are just one side, there are also people in F1 with the opposite oppion, I guess we have to live with it.

            BTW I see 2008 as a fully deserved WDC for LH, nothing more deserving than that! I have to leave now haha.

          • tharris19 said on 4th August 2010, 17:09

            You listen to DC and MB and I will listen to Niki Lauda who called it what it was, bs.

        • mateuss said on 4th August 2010, 13:22

          I think driver favoritism and team orders have to be considered as two completely different things.

          • Harv's said on 5th August 2010, 6:36

            Then again at the usgp07′ alonso did ask the team to tell Hamilton to move aside for him.

            He did the same thing a few races ago, and this time the team listened.

            … it brings me to question if Fernando was really one of the masterminds behind the Singapore GP or not?

  8. Roger Carballo AKA Architrion said on 4th August 2010, 12:32

    Keith, why don’t you find and publish McLaren’s radio transmition on Hockenheim 08 between, when Hamilton and Kovalainen played alike Alonso and Massa, even at the same turn?

    After all, Hamilton won WDC thanks to that few extra points. So, I’m a little confused here. Was it a team sport then? Isn’t it now? Was Hamilton a dirty champion who won a dirty race at Hockenheim 08? Is it Alonso now?

    Please, bring me light in this dark hour

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 4th August 2010, 12:42

      I’ve already covered the Kovalainen thing here:

      Why the team orders rule must stay

      I’d love to hear the team radio from that too.

    • not comparable at all, then you had Hamilton who had fresh tires… very much faster… he overtook Kovalainen… and moved ahead and overtook Massa & Nelson Piquet…

      If Kovalainen had the pace to beat Hamilton… he would have won the race… and not finish 4th then…

      • Roger Carballo AKA Archtrion said on 4th August 2010, 13:32

        Absolutely the same issue, no matter how you want to look at it…. even more… if Hamilton was so fast he could have done it easily…. the same it’s been said about Alonso.

        In fact, both are like two drops of water.

        • not at all, in hamilton’s case he was clearly fast not only he went ahead and overtook another two cars ahead… but he pulled away from Nelson by 5.5 seconds…

          the times between Alonso & Felipe was not much… at that pace it was impossible for Alonso to beat Massa on track… unless a mistake…

          in Hamilton’s case he overtook his teammate and Kovalainen…. now had Kovalainen been as faster as Hamilton on that day, he would have overtaken Heifield, Massa & Piquet to finish second or even first… the fact that he could not means he was slower than above three drivers… and Hamilton beat Massa & Piquet fair n square to win the race…

          this simply does not compare… unless you suggest that Massa & Piquet too let Hamilton go ahead under team orders…

          • chris said on 4th August 2010, 17:01

            oh my dear!!! The fact is that the team gave a team order to heiki to let lewis pass!!! Like it or not this is the fact and not how faster the guy behind was or how slow the guy in front was!!!!

        • tharris19 said on 4th August 2010, 17:15

          He did do it easily, first overtake HK, then FM and finally NP Jr for the win. People tend to forget the last two overtakes, particularly the one with Massa at turn 4.
          In other words, you can’t compare 2008 with 2010.

          • chris said on 4th August 2010, 17:31

            WHY??? Because lewis had 2 more cars to pass??? or because the pace was greater??? I say that: and others team gave or give team orders and DIDN’T FACED THE WMSC….. The two moves (lewis-heiki,fernando-felipe) is exactly the same thing!!! Their teams in this two occasions gave team orders to help the faster guy and the guy that they think than CAN WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!! Stop saying that it is not comparable!!!!

      • Regis said on 4th August 2010, 23:01

        Still, he let him through without putting up a fight which enabled Hamilton to catch the others, Exactly the same thing !!!

        • Dev said on 5th August 2010, 2:25

          so did Massa & Nelson Piquet… they too easily gave up positions…. Hamilton was that much quicker on that day.

          it’s not the same thing..

    • Icthyes said on 4th August 2010, 14:21

      You mean how Massa was given extra points by Raikkonen that year too?

      To suggest 2008 is similar is a pure joke. Was Hamilton tucked up behind Kovalainen and unable to get by? Or did he come straight out of the pits on superior pace (far superior to Alono’s over Massa – you know, the pace that took him about a dozen laps to close up to his team-mate) and the team wanted to make sure nothing happened in a moment of stupidity?

      The analogy is so false on so many counts it’s ridiculous. But ridiculous is exactly the theme of this whole sage, from the “agreement” to its defence.

  9. Alejandro said on 4th August 2010, 12:40

    Well he’s been telling his team that he’s quicker than his teammate since at least 5 years ago



  10. Hamish said on 4th August 2010, 12:46

    Racer vs driver – thank you for showing which one you are.

  11. Jack Peekoc said on 4th August 2010, 12:59

    I want to know why all the drivers have to speak to their teams in English. Why dont they just speak their first language?

    • BasCB said on 4th August 2010, 13:04

      It might be a case of having problems to actually find the engineers able to communicate (Smedley in Portuguese, would love to hear Jock Clear speaking German, where do HRT find engineers for Portuguese, Indian dialects, German and Japanese).

      That would not work.

  12. johnny said on 4th August 2010, 13:02

    u know whts also funny? is that after d race Alonso asked ‘wht happen with Felipe? did he lost a gear or st? wow

  13. troutcor said on 4th August 2010, 14:00

    The issue is passing, or to get to the point, the lack of it. If a clearly faster driver is able to pass a slower one, as common sense would dictate, then team orders don’t come into play here at all. I mean really, how many passes do we see on the track (among top 10 cars)?
    Bring back the days when F1 was not decided solely in a wind tunnel. When was the last time anyone even mentioned engine development? Are these supposed to be cars, or inverted airplanes?

  14. Icthyes said on 4th August 2010, 14:16

    Oh my, the Ferraristas have really gotten defensive over this haven’t they? You’d think that over the past 11 years they’d have gotten used to people calling them out on their team’s chea…I mean, the blatantly unfair picking on them by the British.

    Face it: your team and its drivers would rather win by cheating and lying and playing everyone for fools than not win at all. I’m not saying that’s a reason for you to stop supporting them. But stop acting like you can justify what happened with ridiculous arguments and irrelevant false analogies.

    If you want to be Ferrari fans, do so by saying you wished the passing had happened legitimately but you’ll stick by your team. Just like Hamilton fans didn’t try to justify Australia 2009 with accusations of jingoism and excuses of “well you have to win the title somehow” (let’s not forget McLaren though they’d be winning again by Barcelona, for some reason).

    The best part of all this is Alonso won’t be world champion and all of this rage and self-righteousness will be rendered invalid by his inability to win in a straight fight. That will be the last laugh.

    • David-A (@david-a) said on 4th August 2010, 16:36

      “If you want to be Ferrari fans, do so by saying you wished the passing had happened legitimately but you’ll stick by your team.”

      This is what I had been wishing tbh…

      “The best part of all this is Alonso won’t be world champion and all of this rage and self-righteousness will be rendered invalid by his inability to win in a straight fight.”

      At least with Schumacher, the criticisms were that he would have won the 2002 championship without Barrichello moving aside at the A1-Ring. Alonso isn’t in a very good position to win it this year, but I guess that as a Ferrari fan I have to support him, even if I don’t want to.

      • dyslexicbunny said on 4th August 2010, 18:43

        You can always support Massa while pulling for Alonso to get severe vertigo so he can’t race. I suggest vertigo because although I’m not an Alonso fan (and not British), I don’t wish significant misfortune on other drivers.

        If Massa somehow (this is a loose usage of somehow) loses the WDC by less than 7 points, it’ll be even greater!

    • Eric said on 4th August 2010, 22:02

      do you really want to know why they (Ferraristas) are on this F1Fanatic forum?
      its because they cant write anything at Ferrari’s Forum unless its (i love Ferrari) anything else it gets deleted.
      the forum is so one side they cant see passed there nose…
      they have discounts of 30% at the moment.

    • Alif said on 5th August 2010, 4:56

      No no, the ferrarista is great (lots of my friends are ferrari fans), just like other teams fans. I just dont understand alonso’s fans..

    • Steph90 (@steph90) said on 5th August 2010, 11:38

      I really get your anger Ichtyes and it’s a sorry state that F1 fans are upset but at least it shows that they hold sporting integrity in the highest regard.

      However, I have to argue against you bunching us all together. I think it was immensely painful for many Ferrari fans to see their teams and drivers do such a thing. Most people watch F1 for the sport first and their favourites second.

      Yes, there will always be people who put their favourites first. Fansboys or girls or whatever. We get it with Ferrari, Kimi, Lewis, Fernando and Felipe etc.

      The majority aren’t like that though and are just sad at what happened and won’t attempt to justify it. I know some who have stopped supporting Ferrari all together.

      This was a one time thing since the rules changed. It doesn’t make it any better but to say that Ferrari are inherent cheats is a bit unfair I feel. I like to watch F1 for the sport and I wouldn’t support any team or driver I thought would only ever cheat.

  15. qazuhb said on 4th August 2010, 14:25

    (Nearly) everyone has taken a pee in the pool once or twice, but Ferrari chose to do it from the highest springboard…

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