F1 Fanatic round-up: 9/9/2010
9th September 2010, 0:01 by Keith Collantine 68 Comments »
The FIA says it will publish a full explanation for the Ferrari decision today, which of course will be on the site when it becomes available. Here’s today’s round-up:
Links
Ferrari accuse McLaren of secret team orders (Daily Express)
“Ferrari have spent a lot of time since Germany briefing against other teams, claiming McLaren told Lewis Hamilton in one race that the “cat was out of the house” to get him to pass team-mate Heikki Kovalainen.”
Comment of the day
The World Motor Sport Council’s decision yesterday not to punish Ferrari any further for using team orders in the German Grand Prix leaves us in an odd situation for the rest of the season, as John H explains:
It’s a dangerous precedent. So you can have team orders but it will cost you the measly sum of $100K. Any other team that does it now this season will have to get exactly the same punishment or it makes even more of a mockery of the council.
John H
From the forum
The funny F1 videos thread has been running for over a month and is still going strong.
Happy birthday!
Happy birthday to Mark Hitchcock and Prashanth Bhat!
On this day in F1
Ayrton Senna won the Italian Grand Prix for the first time in his career on this day 20 years ago.
The McLaren driver led home championship rival Alain Prost’s Ferrari, with their team mates Gerhard Berger (McLaren) and Nigel Mansell (Ferrari) behind them.
But the race is most famous for Derek Warwick’s violent crash at the start where he rolled his Lotus at the Parabolica:
studi06 said on 9th September 2010, 0:09
Hopefully we will see the team orders ban removed as it is now clear that it can not be policed so it is no use having it in place.. I would like to see some provisions to protect all the ’2nd’ drivers out there so there is fair competition between the two drivers on each team..
Mike said on 9th September 2010, 2:11
I think can not, and they do not want to are to different things…
The history of the sport stems rudimentary from nationalism, so If I heard the argument that team orders are right, because it is for the teams benefit, I would accept that.
But… When the event happened, A rule was in place… So unless the rules are more like guidelines (again the pirates code) this isn’t a very good precedent.
Any provision to protect second drivers has just gone out the window…
Hairs said on 9th September 2010, 7:43
“Can’t be policed”?
No, in this case, it was policed, the stewards found them guilty, the WMSC upheld the judgement, they just didn’t bother punishing them.
That’s not the same thing at all.
DC said on 9th September 2010, 8:36
Well, $100,000 plus lawyers’ fees is a punishment.
Whether it was a just punishment or not is a different question.
Hairs said on 9th September 2010, 7:44
And the “protection for 2nd drivers” is … what? They already have it, in theory: a ban on team orders that prejudice their race.
Red Andy said on 9th September 2010, 8:21
In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice they are different…
Jason said on 9th September 2010, 9:47
Leaving teams free to undermine the spirit of competition if it suits them, thus negating the entire point of racing in the first place?
If anything, the team orders ban shoud be tightened with the stewards given the power to stip any points received during the race for any team that does it.
mateuss said on 9th September 2010, 12:34
They can police the rule, but they didn’t.
Ned Flanders said on 9th September 2010, 0:12
Happy birthday to my fellow Newcastle fan Mark Hitchcock, and Prashanth too!
BasCB said on 9th September 2010, 6:51
I second that, happy Birthday!
Mark Hitchcock said on 10th September 2010, 0:37
dragon said on 9th September 2010, 0:15
Regarding the comment of the day – that won’t happen. They won’t really make a definitive rule change, like they did when Hamilton ran out of fuel on his in-lap after the Canadian qualifying, but they will enforce it more strongly. If you can get away with it once – and all the big teams push the limits of what is allowed – then do it. There’s no prizes for the most law-abiding constructor.
Ned Flanders said on 9th September 2010, 0:16
Sorry for the self indulgent one news but I have to share my excitement… I’m going to Monaco today! In fact I got a brief glimpse of the track while stopping at Monte Carlo train station today, walked out the station and realised I was at St Devote! So so amazing to see somwehere I’ve always wanted to go
US_Peter said on 9th September 2010, 0:36
Congratulations. I’d love to go there myself.
KateM said on 9th September 2010, 3:27
I had a similar experience in Monaco last year…I was crossing a road with my Dad when I suddenly realised that we were on the starting grid!
Have a great time, be aware that most things are hideously expensive though!
Ned Flanders said on 9th September 2010, 8:42
Oh yeah, I don’t intend to spend a single cent there!, I’m going to make myself a nice big pack lunch!
TimG said on 9th September 2010, 9:23
I was there last week – it’s an amazing place.
Make sure you allow at least an hour to walk round the track. It’s fairly easy to spot where it goes, just look for the small hatches in the ground which provide the supports for the armco barriers. Don’t follow the road round to the left at what looks like the top of Beau Rivage – the track goes on a bit further towards Casino Square. It’s easy to lose track of the circuit when you emerge from the Tunnel but just follow the line of the harbour round and you’ll soon find it again.
They were setting up a yacht show when I was there but hopefully it will have gone by now. Check out the statues at Anthony Nogues and Ste Devote.
If you want a reasonable value lunch there’s a place by La Rascasse (can’t remember the name, something de la Mer), a little along the harbour – two courses plus wine for 23 Euros, which wasn’t bad for Monaco. Alternatively, there’s a sports bar next door to it which boasts a Thierry Boutsen Jordan-Hart from 1993 and various other memorabilia. Hopefully you won’t have to pay for parking, which is extortionate.
If you get time for anything not F1 related, it’s worth a wander up to the Aquarium just for a look at the outside of the building – it looks like it’s carved into the rock. Amazing.
Icthyes said on 9th September 2010, 21:41
Hope you had a great day!
Ned Flanders said on 9th September 2010, 0:21
Sorry for the triple comment, but reading John H’s take on FIA fines makes me think… I wish fines in F1 could actually mean something.
With the glaring exception of McLaren’s quite ridiculous $100 Million fine, no F1 team ever seems to be fined anything more than a token amount. 100k is peanuts to any F1 team… even HRT wouldn’t get worked up about that! With Todt doing a pretty good job at the helm of the FIA atm I hope he can sort this out soon too
Ned Flanders said on 9th September 2010, 0:23
Sorry for starting my comments with the word sorry too!
US_Peter said on 9th September 2010, 0:35
That’s true. Ferrari only have to sell half of one of their lower end models to make up that fine. I’m really not sure any monetary penalty will ever make a difference though to a team like Ferrari. That’s why I’m particularly disappointed in the FIA’s decision as it does essentially set a precedent that points are just up for sale. Something like a race ban or a stripping of all points from that race would have been felt much more deeply by the Horse Whisperer.
studi06 said on 9th September 2010, 1:05
The decision would indicate that they are acknowledging they can not enforce the team orders ban and that it has been and will always be a part of formula 1 racing.. I expect that the review of this rule will see it scrapped for the better of the sport.. They simply can’t stop it happening so why even bother
Mike said on 9th September 2010, 2:22
” for the better of the sport”
No, For the better of the sport would be better associated with teams playing honestly enough to let their guys race, even if it hurts the team overall, that would be better for the sport.
The fact that they can’t is only enforced by this ruling, If this isn’t team orders, what is? If they had clamped down now, and hard, it would send a message… but they did the exact opposite.
US_Peter said on 9th September 2010, 7:14
The “it’s always been” argument doesn’t hold water. Deaths have always been part of the sport as well. Some things we should strive to do without. I know F1 is not a meritocracy as everyone drives different cars, but team orders are very unsportsmanlike and should be left in the history of the sport. It may be hard to enforce, but that doesn’t mean the FIA should just roll over and give up. They should at least attempt to enforce it.
John H said on 9th September 2010, 0:42
Personally I think the loss of the constructors points for the race would have been the sensible decision. This would have stopped future occurrences this season, and sent out the correct message that the sporting code is there for a reason. It would have also sat better with the majority of F1 fans I believe, although I cannot speak for everyone of course.
If McLaren were doing the same at Turkey (evidence would be communications not released to public) then they should also have their constructors points taken away from that race too. I have my suspicions because Lewis was explicitly told Jenson would not pass – how could have that statement been made by the race engineer if it wasn’t checked with Whitmarsh first? I think the fuel saving bit was something different and actually not manipulation at all, as it was proved they were running on empty at the end of the race.
I do not dislike Ferrari, I’m actually a bit of a Felipe Massa fan to be honest. I think there can be a kind of McLaren vs Ferrari mentality in these debates that sometimes means looking at things as objectively as possible is quite tough. But I do think yesterday was a sad day for F1, and I hope that it will not happen again with the new look FIA.
macahan said on 9th September 2010, 1:04
I wish they made ALL communications open. Then people can pick it all apart and know more what is going on. Supposedly Alonso had radioed in that he was faster the Massa a bit before the infamous message to Massa. However we never heard it and TV didn’t have access to it.
US_Peter said on 9th September 2010, 7:17
Agreed. Ultimately teams that choose to use orders are only accountable to the fans since the FIA won’t enforce their own rules. Hopefully with the opening up of radio communications that will make teams think twice before pulling a Ferrari.
Patrickl said on 9th September 2010, 13:46
This is what baffles me. From what we heard on TV we could already understand that illegal team orders were at play.
We can only imagine what was said during all the discussion before that final coded message.
For instance Smedly told Massa that if he kept setting fastest laps he “could” stil win. What on earth could be the justification for a sentence like that? there must have been some sort of compromise where Massa was told he needed to show that he was actually faster than Alonso or else …
manatcna said on 9th September 2010, 0:43
Ned, you’ll love it!
Fer no.65 said on 9th September 2010, 0:52
Top Gear already said it “So… Fernando is faster than you, do you understand?” isn’t a coded message at all…
if you want to do it, do it well… at least put some thought on it…
“Duck hunt season is open”… “my granny made some cookies”…
perfect team orders
macahan said on 9th September 2010, 1:02
the cuckoo is coming through the doors
fly is open
BasCB said on 9th September 2010, 6:55
According to that daily express link Keith added McLaren used a nice frase like that in 2008 to tell Lewis he could go past Heikki without problems.
Really pathetic by Ferrari. As if anyone really cares about a team letting one of their cars past to give that car a chance of winning the other never had in the race.
luigismen said on 9th September 2010, 12:56
“The cat is out of the house”
f1yankee said on 9th September 2010, 1:07
“you nicked that for 10,000 pounds yesterday. what a magic result on your behalf.”
eddie jordan to martin whitmarsh, on hamilton’s fraudulent qualifying for the 2010 canadian gp.
Patrickl said on 9th September 2010, 13:48
Yeah that was weird too. Either punish them or not.
Same with all those stupid reprimands that they were handing out at the beginning of the season. I’ve never understood what a reprimand was supposed to do anyway.
All these non-punishments just make the sport look ridiculous.
Icthyes said on 9th September 2010, 1:24
Martin Whitmarsh wants the teams orders ban overturned. Of course he does, he wants the option for himself for the future.
I just wonder, is no-one really that bothered because, let’s face it, Ferrari look unlikely to have a driver win the world championship? If Alonso was level on points with Webber, would we see more of a fight about this?
It’s clear team orders are going to go, I just wish they’d replace it with something like the ability to switch points and not positions*. So Massa would have still got his win and trophy but the points would go to Alonso. Better than nothing and the farce can’t be seen on-track. Even I who am against team orders can understand the justification for them, so why not make them as palatable as possible?
*Of course, only if they are fighting over the same position. You can’t do it if they’re 1st and 5th.
luigismen said on 9th September 2010, 12:57
I would be a little bit complicated
Icthyes said on 9th September 2010, 15:20
And wrong, actually, now I think more about it. Manipulators should not be allowed an official fig leaf of cover.
Shaun Field said on 9th September 2010, 2:05
I have to laugh at the bitter complaints from ferrari re mclaren using ‘cat was out of the house’. This the way things are supposed to work guys. I propose that teams should be allowed to use team orders, but they have to use the most rediculous term they can think of to pass on the message. I would use ‘Your wife is here with a rolling pin’ for get out of the way
BasCB said on 9th September 2010, 6:56
And then post it on their website, so Fans can have fun during the race spotting wich rediculous phrase it was this time!
That would be a fun contest
US_Peter said on 9th September 2010, 7:20
That “cat was out of the house” line cracks me up. At least McLaren had a sense of humor about it.
LAK said on 9th September 2010, 3:02
Lol at Ferrari pointing the finger at McLaren, the thing is we all know that teams do have team orders from time to time, and if it’s in the last races and clearly affects the championship then it doesn’t seem to matter to anyone. The fact that Hockenheim was in the middle of the season where both drivers still had a chance at the championship made it so much worse. They didn’t even try to hide it, they did it in such audacity, and that is disrespecting the rules. They need to agree on when team orders are allowed and under what circumstances specifically. We as fans are bored of having rules that are constantly overlooked and ignored!
Happy Birthday Mark Hitchcock & Prashanth Bhat!
Ned hope you enjoy Monaco it’s great!
US_Peter said on 9th September 2010, 7:23
You hit the nail on the head. If it’s at the end of the season, the #2 driver usually WANTS to help their team mate clinch the championship, but so early in the season as Hockenheim it’s just insulting to everyone. It’s been said hundreds of times already, but if Alonso really was so much faster he should have been forced to take the lead. That was not a win.
Lord Stig said on 9th September 2010, 3:46
At this point the only thing that can be done is to repeal the team orders ban. While I do not agree with the WMC ruling, what is done is done. John H makes a very valid point. For the big teams $100,000 USD is not much money considering their massive expenditures.
Joey-Poey said on 9th September 2010, 4:15
“We won’t apologize for or admit to breaking the rules but we’ll happily point out and whine about other teams doing it!”
MtlRacer said on 9th September 2010, 5:20
“Ferrari have spent a lot of time since Germany briefing against other teams, claiming McLaren told Lewis Hamilton in one race that the “cat was out of the house” to get him to pass team-mate Heikki Kovalainen.”
If the message had been to Heikki in order to let Lewis pass, there would be an issue, but in my opinion, being told to pass the car in front of you is to be expected, regardless of it’s your teammate or not.
dragon said on 9th September 2010, 6:50
except when Heikki obligingly moves aside for you, then it’s not really a pass, is it
BasCB said on 9th September 2010, 6:58
I would more love to know what they said to Massa and Piquet to make them move aside almost as fast as Heikki that race.
And what would have been the message to Lewis about that?
Red Andy said on 9th September 2010, 9:17
“Felipe, Lewis is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand? …. Oh no, I didn’t mean….”
Patrickl said on 9th September 2010, 13:49
Yeah I’ll bet they were told that Lewis was coming up fast behind them too.