Petrov penalised, Massa spared (Poll)

Vitaly Petrov has been handed a five-place grid penalty for the next round of the championship at Korea for his collision with Nico H?‚??lkenberg on the first lap of the Japanese Grand Prix.

However Felipe Massa has not been punished for his collision moments later with Vitantonio Liuzzi.

All four drivers retired from the race.

Massa went off the track at the first corner, rejoined and hit Liuzzi. The stewards said:

The stewards after hearing the explanation of both the competitors representatives and the drivers decided that the incident requires no further action.

Petrov was given a penalty for “[Causing] a collision with car 10, Nico H?‚??lkenberg.”

Who should have had a penalty?

  • Just Petrov (22%)
  • Just Massa (13%)
  • Petrov and Massa (39%)
  • Neither (26%)

Total Voters: 1,049

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87 comments on Petrov penalised, Massa spared (Poll)

  1. Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk) said on 10th October 2010, 10:50

    I’d swear that I saw a Pet smack Massa’s front left on the start… I hated the Jap TV coverage as I saw only one replay of the start a right angle.

    • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 10th October 2010, 11:01

      The replays were terrible I agree. Showed us nothing at all. No onboards whatsoever.

      • wasiF1 (@wasif1) said on 10th October 2010, 11:07

        Agree they didn’t showed anything of what happened, they could have showed it when they were behind the safety cars. EVen they missed the moves of Schumacher on Barrichello & Nico going out at 130R while trying to overtake a Torro Rosso.

        But looking at what I saw I think Massa should also been penalized as he was over ambitious.

      • BasCB said on 10th October 2010, 16:02

        first they missed part of what was happening at the start and then the replays showed nothing much as well.
        Another missed opportunity by the TV crew.

        I think Petrov went between the Hulk and Massa, then went to the side as Massa wanted to get further from the wall, and hit H√ľlkenberg, as Massa swiped back towards the edge of the track, where he probably lost control on the still damp kerbs / grass and harpooned Liuzzi.
        To me it’s probably a racing incident.

        Might be they are harder on Petrov, as he is a rookie and has to learn from it and it is not the first time at the start as well. Also, without Massa swooping a bit off track after those two hit, he might not have lost control.

    • Alex Bkk (@alex-bkk) said on 10th October 2010, 11:26

      As I think I saw it… Pet was coming up the middle and smacked Mass on the left front wheel. Massa seemed very unstable and then the rest happened. But I only saw one quick replay of it.

      • magnafw07 said on 10th October 2010, 17:09

        I live in Japan. For some reason the whole country has an aversion to replays.

        The native TV coverage cuts away to commercials at the wrong time (despite it not being live) at baseball and soccer games, they have giant screens they only use for shots of the crowd, and when they get a chance to direct and F1 race they completely screw it.


  2. I don’t think Petrov should have been penalized, he was punished enough with his race finishing before the first corner (and I’m a Williams supporter). I think it was a racing incident…

    • It’ll be interesting to see the results of f1fanatic poll.

    • No it was extremely poor judgement, he basically drove over the front right corner of Hulkenberg’s car. That’s how I see it anyway.

      • But does it really need to be penalized with grid penalty on next race? Imagine if Webber received penalty for his crash at Valencia, this is similar racing incident in my book.

        • glue (@glue) said on 10th October 2010, 13:22

          it was as much of a racing incident as Vettel and Webber in Turkey

          • @gabal & @glue, you might be right, I’d have to see an onboard to decide.
            However, incidents mid-race should be treated different to those at the race start, it’s not just a simple case of two drivers crashing.
            Petrov did appear to drive for a gap that wasn’t there.

    • his_majesty said on 11th October 2010, 0:50

      Nobody should be penalized, nobody tries to take themselves out of the race. When was this trash of punishing drivers for being aggresive. I thought they wanted passing, not follow the leader. F1 is just retarded, I’ll say it again, I watch because the cars are cool. I know, I know if I don’t like it I don’t have to watch it, you sound like a broken record. I’m just waiting for the revert back to the 80’s and early 90’s. It’ll happen sooner or later.

      • Adam Tate said on 11th October 2010, 7:14

        Your Majesty, I agree, they were just racing incidents, just rather large ones. In Massa’s case, He had no other choice but to take to the grass, he was on the inside and was pushed out by one of the Mercedes not leaving him any room. It seems no one got a good look at it on TV, but that’s how it appeared to me.

    • Anagh said on 11th October 2010, 6:27

      i guess itz more like penalized for getting someone else out of the race due to his poor judgment.

  3. I don’t think either should be penalised really. There were innocent victims in both but it was an accident. Maybe the worst was slightly Petrov but only because the Williams was so close whereas Liuzzi was in the wrong place at the wrong time. They both were 100% at fault and responsible but with a first lap at the start and it wasn’t that serious I just think it’s a bit harash on Vitaly although I understand it.

    I’d like to thank the coverage again for missing everything at the start, taking forever with replays and no onboards. I must be boring you all to death but this has been a classic season and we’ve only seen half of it due to poor coverage. It’s getting increasingly annoying. Watch the DVD be about 5 hours long just with bits we didn’t see live :P

    • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 10th October 2010, 11:02

      Couldn’t agree more. I have said more than a few nasty things about FOM this year…

      • I already said this at other thread – this race wasn’t broadcast by FOM but by Fuji TV. And the quality of the broadcast was much lower then usually.

        • True but they don’t use FOM at Monaco either and that was terrible too. It doesn’t seem to matter who boradcasts it we still miss crucial footage and camera angles

          • Part of this surely is that it is live, and having the cameras in the right place at the right time is probably more luck than skill…

          • what about the onboards though?

          • Daniel said on 10th October 2010, 13:23

            I think Channel 10 in Australia does the Australian GP. That coverage was pretty good if I recall correctly.

          • US_Peter (@us_peter) said on 10th October 2010, 21:16

            Steph, we did see a few onboards (I think both Kubica’s crash and Rosberg’s), but I know what you mean, they should’ve shown some onboards of the start from the drivers directly behind the crashes. That would really be the best angle to see it from. There’s a vid up on YouTube (until it gets pulled) that shows the Petrov incident pretty well. There’s still no good angle on Felipe Baby.

        • BasCB said on 10th October 2010, 16:06

          But Bahrain was FOM and there we did miss any of the action that was actually happening.

    • BasCB said on 10th October 2010, 16:05

      fully agree, both on the penalties as well as on the great quality of the director to fail to show us most of what happened at the start and then spend a lot of time with Sakon.

      Good thing at Kobayashi made those overtakes, had it been any other driver (save Sakon :-D) we would have probably missed those as well.

  4. Unless Petrov has the best 3 races of his life in the upcoming races, I don’t see Renault retaining him. He’s way too far behind Kubica in the championship, he is costing Renault 4th place in the constructors championship.

  5. Icthyes (@icthyes) said on 10th October 2010, 10:57

    Seems harsh, but then again it could have been dangerous. But how is this a deterrent to future situations? It’s not like Petrov wanted this to happen. It was a stupid mistake but a mistake nonetheless.

    • Todfod said on 10th October 2010, 12:38

      Well if there was a quota of stupid mistakes allowed for rookies in their first season, Petrov would have doubled that figure by now. While Kobayashi has also made his fair share of rookie mistakes, Petrov has taken it too far. I hope he isn’t retained at Renault next year, as he is probably the worst of the rookies with the best team.

      • magnafw07 said on 10th October 2010, 17:13

        Also Kobayashi has had more than a few races like today. When has Petrov carved up the field to grab a couple of points for the team?

  6. Damon said on 10th October 2010, 11:01

    Petrov had just too much of a speed advantage over others due to his great start. An accident could happen to anyone. He shouldn’t have been penalized.

    • Magnificent Geoffrey (@magnificent-geoffrey) said on 10th October 2010, 11:06

      I think the clincher here was that it took Hulkenberg out of the race. If you make a mistake and you’re the only one who suffers for it, fair enough. But if your mistake ends up costing an innocent second-party, apparently that’ll set you back even more.

      • BasCB said on 10th October 2010, 16:08

        and it possibly set the circumstances for Massa hitting Liuzzi as well.
        Still i think no penalty was needed.

      • US_Peter (@us_peter) said on 10th October 2010, 21:21

        @Geoffrey, then why didn’t Vettel receive a penalty after Turkey, or Webber after Valencia? There are probably a handful of other examples this year as well. Personally I don’t think they should be penalizing drivers for mistakes. I do think they should be penalizing for things like Schumi’s stunt on Barrichello at Hungary.

        • Magnificent Geoffrey said on 11th October 2010, 5:37

          No idea mate. I think there’s a degree of stupidity used in determining when a penalty is given – clearly Vettel’s mistake in Turkey wasn’t deemed as stupid as Petrov’s.

  7. TommyB (@tommyb89) said on 10th October 2010, 11:03

    Petrov was too aggressive. Weaving in the middle of the pack was always going to end that way.

    Massa should have just backed out of the Rosberg move instead of trying to break on the grass.

  8. hawkfist said on 10th October 2010, 11:09

    It looked to me like Heidfeld (I think) veered slightly left and Petrov mirrored him, it’s not obvious on the overhead replay but the camera at the end of the straight shows it pretty clearly. Petrov himself said he was just reacting to a car in front and it looked pretty plausible from that angle.

    The speed differential between Petrov and Hulkenberg probably seemed so huge from within the cockpit at that point he thought he was well past.

  9. Jelle van der Meer said on 10th October 2010, 11:18

    Massa more than Petrov should have been penalized, Massa went on the inside/grass knowing he could not keep the corner.
    Following the team order rulling I do start to believe that Jean Todt is moving forces to protect his old team.

    • Jean Todt is seperate from the stewards. He isn’t in the room with them. Massa just made a mistake and was over ambitious. It was bad but loads have done the same like Liuzi at Canada etc. It’s first lap mayhem

      • magnafw07 said on 10th October 2010, 17:15

        While I in no way think that Todt had anything to do with Massa being let off, I think with modern communication and the like, it is not at all necessary to be in the room with someone to get them to do your bidding.

  10. I’ll say it again, are penalties supposed to punish people breaking the rules? or doing something stupid? Again I’ll add that I think it should be the former and not the latter.

    On the other hand, it was right at the start, and a crash there could be very, very bad… Spa 98 style perhaps… So this time, I think the penalty can be easily justified, Just as in Canada…. Petrov there as well coincidentally.

  11. I found Petrov explanation (via Renault on Twitter – somewhat not very clear. He was quoted as saying:
    “I made a good start then a car in front moved left, I had to as well, and I got hit at the rear”.
    Apparently he wasn’t hit – it was him who misjugded the space when moving to the left and he touched the front wing of Hulkenberg.
    On the other hand Massa’s drive in Liuzzi looks to me more punishable than Petrov’s manouvers.

    • Massa didn’t drive into Liuzzi. He lost the car after trying a move on Rosberg and ending on the grass. Liuzzi was just wrong place and wrong time unfortunately

      • Magnificent Geoffrey (@magnificent-geoffrey) said on 10th October 2010, 12:00

        I haven’t seen a replay from Massa’s car yet, but I have to see that trying to get past Rosberg on the inside was not Felipe’s most intelligent decision ever.

        • Steph said on 10th October 2010, 12:12

          I’ve watched the onboard. Frankly it was thick and he does sometimes play with fire at the start but I didn’t think it was worth a punishment but I’d understand if he got one.
          Petrov clearly took Hulk out whereas Liuzzi just kind of got collected by an out of control Felipe I think and maybe that’s the difference or just Vitaly’s movements. I’m slightly baffled to be honest to me they should both be punished or let both let off and I’d go with the latter.

          • Petrov had a truly ridiculous start, from the heli-cam it appears he gets off the line about twice as fast as everybody around him.

            When you’re besides (but not yet ahead) another car you simply have no choice to avoid it. Petrov might have done this to an extend more than was necessary, but it definitely had nothing to do with attacking aggression. It was clumsy, but a racing incident. Just like Massa probably couldn’t do much about the collision his car caused.

            In my opinion neither should have been punished, but I’d love to see an on board replay of Petrov’s and especially Hulkenberg’s car.

          • Obviously this stuff’s been on youtube for a while (halfway they show the replays from different angles):


            I’d say it’s close for Petrov, but definitely his fault. His start is insane, Massa, himself, Heidfeld and Hulkenberg are very close and he half-avoids Massa and tries to follow Heidfeld.

            On this replay Massa’s action really looks way too optimistic, he tries to pass the slow starting Rosberg (I think) before turn one then simply forgets to break and drives onto the grass taking out Luizzi. If his car was damaged before that point he’s admittedly a passenger, but from those replays it looks like Massa was by far the more reckless driver than Petrov was.

            Still, I would have penalized neither.

      • macahan said on 10th October 2010, 20:43

        Love my DVR checked the replay in 1/15th speed. It seems pretty clear on the side and overview of the grid that Petrov started to move left way to early in responds to Heidfield closing him off and hit the Williams with his rear tire when he is barely half past the Williams. A bit immature driving, should tucked in behind heidfeld and tried if he was given more room there was no way he would been able to squeeze himself between Heidfield and Hulkenburg. A more season driver wouldn’t pushed his luck. Penalty seems appropriate.

        Massa had great speed but got squeezed hard into first corner. He had nowhere to go besides give away to the right he had a clear line and was half up on driver to his left when the driver closes the window and already at braking point pulling to the right (of track) was his only option and as soon as he hit the grass he just became a passenger. He couldn’t lifted or braked because he was already at brake point. In return Massa got squeezed because his squeezer got squeezed in his turn so the other driver couldn’t/shouldn’t been penalized because there was nowhere for him to go then right and well Massa was there and tried to do the only sensible thing by going right. Normally things would probably been fine or resulted in some touching, maybe a couple of broken front wings but due to all the rain the day before the grass was probably very wet and ground very soggy.
        Game over.

        I feel the stewards made the right call here.
        Also I wish people would compare rulings done now with other stewards rulings or failed rulings in races YEARS past when some rules where different and steward ships where different then currently.
        Don’t make comparisons like ohh in 1989 XYZ driver did the same thing but wasn’t penalized so ABC driver today shouldn’t be penalized.
        Personally I think Stewarding this year been far superior to anything else we seen in a long time a few a bit questionable calls but all in all pretty decent and agreed with most of them even when hitting “my team/drivers”. Some that I didn’t agree with but across THIS years races things been far more consistent then past years where one incident wasn’t given penalty while another identical incident in another race THAT year was given penalty (mind you no warnings or back flag for the first incident).

    • Daffid said on 10th October 2010, 13:12

      I’ve looked at it a few times and from the first helicopter shot it looks as if Massa touches Petrov’s back wheel – but it doesn’t look like that from the other 2 angles we get. So hard to say but I wonder if there was some small touch that Petrov over-reacted to, because the way he suddenly swerves seems totally weird. might also explain why Massa was out-of sorts as he went into the corner. Gotta feel for Tonio Liuzzi, he’s having a miserable time.

      • macahan said on 10th October 2010, 20:47

        he tries to squeeze his way past Heidfeld who is moving into position in front of him and Hulk whom he is about to pass but there is just not enough room, Heidfeld fair and square blocked/cut Petrov off and Petrov tried to muscle his way past Hulkberg and Hulk didn’t move over because there was no time to react and notice the Renault that had a super start (he was completely out of box by the time Massa and Hulk was half out of theirs but he didn’t move any sooner then they did).

        I been very impressed by Petrov this year and rate him as one of the best Rookies but this was a stupid move and surly a bad Rookie mistake.

        • Daffid said on 10th October 2010, 22:43

          Yeah, he definitely has speed and tenacity, and he’s been unlucky (e.g. Alonso giving him a puncture), but he’s also been far too rash at times. Maybe he needs a year or two somewhere else, like Lotus maybe, earn his spurs. Renault need a more finished article like Sutil after the string of rookies they’ve been through.

          Ever since Hamilton arrived everyone has gone rookie crazy, but even Alonso had a year at Minardi and a year testing before getting the Renault drive, I just don’t think he’s ready.

  12. James said on 10th October 2010, 11:42

    Massa should have been penalised as well. He cut the corner, went of the racing track is defined by the white lines and caused an avoidable collision. If I had done that on the F1 2010 game, I would have a drive through!

    Even I, a Ferrari fan, feel a bit miffed at this one

    • To be fair the F1 3010 game has the most annoying penalty system after :P I don’t think he cut it just he ran out of room and then crashed. His Hockheinem one was a clear cut but went away fine.

      Keith do you know if Jaime and Kobayashi are being investigated? When Kobayashi was pretty much alongside Jaime he seemed to think “no, you’re not going through” and smash!

      • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 10th October 2010, 12:27

        Doubt it – they tend not to bother if no-one’s race was ruined.

        • Icthyes (@icthyes) said on 10th October 2010, 12:39

          That’s the clincher, isn’t it. Say in Sinagpore, Hamilton did not retire but was relegated to 5th, we probably wouldn’t have had an investigation. It’s like the event is more important than the potential.

          • Steph said on 10th October 2010, 14:01

            That’s something I don’t get if it’s just one of those things like Seb and Jense it gets punished but something that looks like intentional ramming doesn’t because noone retired? That’s not really enforcing driving standards :p

            Thank you very much for the reply though Keith

      • Steph, F1 3010 won’t be released for 1000 years…

  13. kimster46 said on 10th October 2010, 12:00

    what a loser Felipe Massa is … it seems only reason ferrari keeping him is, Nicolas Todt is his manager … that won’t help in 2011 though ..

    its funny today massa slapped luca di montezemolo in his face by intentionally retiring in first lap ..LMAO

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 10th October 2010, 12:09

      its funny today massa slapped luca di montezemolo in his face by intentionally retiring in first lap

      That’s a ridiculous idea. If he wanted to do that he wouldn’t have done it by having a violent crash with another driver.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 10th October 2010, 12:12

        And what on earth did he have to gain by crashing into Liuzzi?

      • kimster46 said on 10th October 2010, 14:09

        i appreciate your thoughts , but am sure everybody expects Massa to bring points to the team so it helps in constructors …again not many ferrari drivers crashed like this in first lap , as common sense demands him to drive safe , so it helps team … as his boss demands :):)

  14. Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 10th October 2010, 12:10

    Neither should have been penalised. Massa’s was clearly a racing incident, but Petrov had to go left to afoid hitting Heidfeld. If anyone should have taken the heat for that one, it’s Hulkenberg – he was slow to start, and Petrov was all but past him when contact was made. Consequently, he should have backed off and let the Russian through.

    • Maciek said on 10th October 2010, 15:17

      There’s no way Hulkenberg being could have reacted quickly enough to “let him through”. Neither can you really blame Petrov, but if we have to point the finger at someone it’s him since he didn’t make sure that he had cleared Hulkenberg. But a penalty is ridiculous. These are split-second reactions and accidents will happen. The stewarding still needs some improvements it would seem.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 10th October 2010, 23:24

        Hulkenberg was in Petrov’s blind spot, and the road immediately in front of him was filled with cars. Like he said, he went left to avoid Heidfeld, because to the best of his knowledge, he had already cleared Hulkenberg. Both were at fault, but I think Hulkenberg could have done more because he could see Petrov when Petrov couldn’t see him. On a side note, Hulkenberg’s starts have been terrible this year, whilst Petrov has been spectacular off the line.

  15. Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 10th October 2010, 12:28

    I don’t see why Vettel was penalised at Spa for hitting Button but Massa escaped a penalty today. Both were attempting overtaking moves, lost control of their cars, and took another car out.

    • Icthyes (@icthyes) said on 10th October 2010, 12:37

      We need at least permanent stewards as well as clear rules i.e. when you’re more than 50% in front of a car the other guy has to give way, which would make this one more Hulkenburg’s fault. Maybe we could still have the three volunteers plus driver but have them joined by a permanent set of four.

      • Skett said on 10th October 2010, 20:17

        Theres no way that could ever be claimed as Hulkenburgs fault; it was on a straight why would he back out, he didn’t know anybody would cut across him!

    • US_Peter (@us_peter) said on 10th October 2010, 21:25

      I think most people that weren’t/aren’t biased against Vettel thought that was a gratuitous penalty in Spa. It was unfortunate for Button, but it was really just a racing incident.

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