??We don?t manipulate things like Ferrari??

F1 Fanatic round-up

Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz has spelled out his team’s policy ahead of the season finale. Here’s today’s round-up:

Links

Red Bull boss: No driver favouritism, I don?t care if we lose (James Allen)

??Let the two drivers race and what will be will be. if Alonso wins we will have been unlucky. I predict a Hollywood ending. Worst case scenario we don?t become champion? We?ll do it next year. But our philosophy stays the same because this is sport and it must remain sport. We don?t manipulate things like Ferrari do.??

Dieter Rencken previews “Senna” film (TopCar)

“Despite cutting it to 147 minutes the producers remained dissatisfied. Ultimately the production was edited to 104 minutes as demanded by Universal. In the process many gems were discarded, but the production trio compensated by retaining priceless moments and copious quantities of previously unseen/behind-the-scenes footage, including key incidents he was involved in, enquiries drivers? briefings and more intimate moments.”

David Hunt Exclusive On Team Lotus (The Race Driver)

“When they bought Group Lotus in late 1996 a lot of Malaysian dignitaries flew over to see the new purchase at a launch event. They were taken completely by surprise when they learned that their new trophy asset did not include an F1 racing team. It?s a bit like the Americans thinking they?d bought Tower Bridge only to find the old London Bridge on their doorstep. It seems the Malaysians had been lacking in their Due Diligence.”

Fernando Alonso ‘100%’ confident of winning F1 title (BBC)

“I just need to finish second. It doesn’t matter who wins in Abu Dhabi if I finish second.”

The Art of Simulation (Williams)

“Chris Partridge has been given rare access to the Williams Formula 1 team’s simulator.”

Paddock life: Interlagos edition (Autosport)

“Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali joked with the media that he had been ‘trembling’ with worry that the local fans would berate his team over what happened at Hockenheim, but instead they simply heaped all their antagonism on Fernando Alonso instead. It was amazing seeing Ferrari-shirted fans booing one of the Maranello drivers before cheering on the other one.”

Russia?s Vladimir Putin gives F1 car a whirl

“Vladimir Putin just cannot stay away from manly pursuits.”

Comment of the day

Lewis Hamilton anywhere other than McLaren is hard to imagine, but so was Michael Schumacher in a car that isn’t red. Chris P wonders if it could happen:

If you are at McLaren or Ferrari you know a championship winning car will come along every couple of years. Question is now with Red Bull having the quickest car for two years (challenging for the championship up to the wire in both years) will they continue to thwart the established teams? Will Mercedes be in the mix next year?

Hamilton should have won 2007, he won 2008, 2009 was impossible to win and this year without his run of three DNFs he probably should have 20-30 more points than he has. So in his four years in F1 he has gone into the last race with a chance of winning the WDC on three occasions. No one else has been in the same position. Should he seriously consider changing teams?
Chris P

From the forum

Wanted: your ideas for improving the F1 Fanatic live blogs.

Site updates

We’ve had some problems with spam in the forum recently, thanks to everyone who’s warned me about spam threads and thanks also to TommyB89 for getting rid of some of them.

I’ve made some changed to the anti-spam system which will hopefully help alleviate the problem.

Happy birthday!

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On this day in F1

Back in 2000 Ricardo Zonta and BAR parted on angry terms, the Brazilian telling the press:

Instead of finding support and comfort with Jacques Villeneuve and Craig Pollock, I found critical remarks which were unjustified. And from there the personal errors multiplied. I felt lost. I could not work as well as I fought to earn some points and return myself to the top.
Ricardo Zonta

After that Zonta made a handful of starts for Jordan and Toyota in 2002 and 2004.

He was deployed a substitute in Ralf Schumacher’s place at Indianapolis in 2005, but of course he never got to start the race.

Read more: United States Grand Prix 2005 Review

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214 comments on ??We don?t manipulate things like Ferrari??

  1. Alonso fan said on 9th November 2010, 2:59

    Lmao! Red Bull Racing should get a Darwin Award…

  2. Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 3:10

    Mateschitz’s policy is laudable, but hopefully it doesn’t cost them a title. I like that Christian Horner has said that what happens in Abu Dhabi will be because of the decisions the drivers made, but it would be quite poetic if Ferrari lost the title because someone used team orders against them.

    That said, it would be great to see a situation where Vettel winds his engine down and lets Webber through with ten laps to go (so that it at least looks legitimate), only for Alonso’s engine to vomit itself across the circuit or to have him tablge with a backmarker. You’d then have Helmut Marko trying to order Webber to move over for Vettel, Webber ignoring it, Vettel kicking himself and trying to catch Webber and a brawl on the podium when the Australian comes through.

    • f1yankee said on 9th November 2010, 3:13

      back under your bridge, you!

    • if Vettel doesn’t let Webber through and Alonso is 3rd behind Webber i hope next year they cant compete and it all go’ tits up for them.

      i will NOT be happy if Alonso wins this title because of the fact he was gifted those points way back when it was illegal to do so.

      im with you Prisoner Monkey give it to the Ozzie while they can, at least then they have won everything there is to be won.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 6:23

        If I were Vettel, I’d have gone up to Webber and said “Okay, I’m Red Bull’s man through and through. So if I win in Brazil and give them the Constructors’ Championship, I’ll back you up at Abu Dhabi”.

        • Francuis said on 9th November 2010, 7:58

          Every time you comment, the same thing comes out of your mouth. Don’t you have any other point of view apart from poor Massa that has been screwed by Alonso and Ferrari? That poor donkey your riding back is broken by now as the “IMPRISONED MONKEY” is shackled on it with a one track mind, shouting “Alonso cheating” and “down with Ferrari”. Look like your day is going to be spoiled on Sunday and Alonso comes to mind.

          • infy (@infy) said on 9th November 2010, 9:11

            You get used to it. Its his own little bit of Russian propoganda :P

            Just hit him in his weak spot. Hamilton is out because he is worse than Alonso.

          • Icthyes (@icthyes) said on 9th November 2010, 10:04

            I love the irony of you posting that in reply to his one comment that doesn’t involve Ferrari at all.

            Between your comments and infy’s incorrect assumption he’s a Hamilton fan, together you really ballsed that up!

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 10:15

            I love the irony of you posting that in reply to his one comment that doesn’t involve Ferrari at all.

            I love the irony that people think Hamilton is my weakspot …

          • Icthyes (@icthyes) said on 9th November 2010, 10:26

            Well it just gives an insight into the mindset, doesn’t it? They love Ferrari and hate Hamilton, you hate Ferrari, therefore…

            It chuckles me, it really does. We get people who come on here and complain about UK bias and they don’t see the irony that their assumption it’s all down to who you support or where you’re from is just as ignorant.

      • Rahzam said on 9th November 2010, 10:00

        You are not happy for Alonso. So Vettel should let Webber through so Webber can win. Is this your point?

        • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 10:17

          If one driver moves over for another, then I have no problem with it – provided that the driver who moves over does it by his choice and his alone.

          • Mr. Wrong said on 9th November 2010, 17:14

            Massa had the choice not to move, but he did anyway.
            This does not mean there were no team orders, they are issued every single race by every single team. Some have to do with strategy, some with driver position, some are coded into messages as to make them less conspicuous, some are not. Whatever the case might be, no amount of bile will make a difference in the standing at present.
            Also, you do seem to be quite outspoken about your hate for Ferrari, are you, by any chance, Nigel Stepney?

    • You just hit the nail on the head!

    • Regis said on 9th November 2010, 7:26

      you can be sure that if Vettel moves over for Webber it will be in the final corner of the final lap.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 10:19

        Will it? What if we have a repeat of Abu Dhabi, where Alonso is catching Webber in the final few laps? There’s a very real chance that if Vettel has a sizeable lead and is forced to slow, Alonso will be able to sneak through. No, if Vettel lets Webber through, he’ll do it in a way that makes sure that he can preserve second place for Webber. Just to be safe.

        • monsol said on 9th November 2010, 10:37

          you must surely mean a repeat of Interlagos…

          It’s going to be tricky anyway. And if they switch and Alonso can’t zero on Vettel, he may be tempted to stall the car in the last lap just to give him food for thought.

  3. Anthony Davidson former F1 driver stated on the 5 live Brazil review podcast. The very thing that we have all known for some time. That Helmut Marko, who is in charge of RBR, has done everything he can to block Webber’s title chances so that Vettel can have every chance of winning the title.
    It is absolutely insulting to have Deitrich, Helmut and Horner tell us they treat their drivers equally. They have every right to favor Vettel and get behind him at the expense of Webber.
    It is their team they control it. I have just lost all respect for them because of their disgusting display of hypocrisy toward Ferrari and the way they have treated Webber as inferior to Vettel. Wasn’t WWII fought to put an end to this secretive German/Austrian superiority attitude.
    Helmut there are a lot of Australians that pay your check by drinking Red Bull. You have a funny way of thanking them.
    I now drink Rockstar energy drink instead of Red Bull. As of late Red Bull just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    • Daniel said on 9th November 2010, 4:01

      “Don’t mention the war.”

    • We should start a campaingn to boycott Red Bull drinks and make this company go belly up as a way to protest the disrespecful way they have treated Webber for the whole year.

      • I already started.
        When I go into a liquor/convenience store. I tell the person ringing me up why I am not buying Red Bull. In small stores like that the person ringing me up is usually the owner or the person that puts the orders in for the different kinds of energy drinks they sell. Trust me it gets back to the Red Bull salesperson. I worked for a beverage distributor a few years back.

        • I don’t drink energy drinks, but I live in Australia, and I see Red Bull around the place, but I never seen any sort of mention of Webber on Red Bull advertising or packaging or anything. I remember seeing a picture from the UK with a picture of Vettel on the packaging. In Australia I dare say Webber would be more associated with Canberra Milk than Red Bull. Which brings me to another point, say it was Coca-Cola Racing, instead of Red Bull Racing, there would no way that Coca-Cola would let Webber do an ad for Canberra Milk (unless of course they owned Canberra Milk). Given that milk is a drink it is a competitor to Red Bull.

          • TommyC said on 9th November 2010, 6:49

            go to your local servo. most seem to have a 6 pack of red bull with webber in an RB5 on the cardboard packaging. but that’s about it. no posters/bilboards that i’m aware of…

      • Stretch said on 9th November 2010, 4:56

        Monster Energy drink sounds appealing. Don’t mind supporting the likes of Ken Block or even Mercedes GP.

        • Stretch once again I like the way you think. Ken Block grew up about 15 minutes down the road from me. We use to run in some mutual circles.

          Here is the plan, you and Ozzy run the official campaign. Our slogan is Drink Monster Because Red Bull is Trying to Cheat Mark Webber out of the WDC.
          You guys can work out my office in Newport Beach. We encourage all reasonable F1 fans around the world to switch to Monster because of the way RBR has treated Webber. In 8 months Red Bull stock plummets.
          We get Ken to buy the team for pennies on the dollar. Ozzy you take Horners job, Stretch you take Helmut’s job, Ken is the new Deitrich and we get Kobeyashi to take Vettels spot and we keep everyone else. As for myself, I will spend all my time at the FIA explaining why Kobeyashi in every race has to hit every car he passes while working his way up the field.
          I need to come back down to reality. For a second there like deitrich, Helmut and Horner I started to believe my own B.S. LOL

          • infy (@infy) said on 9th November 2010, 9:17

            lol XD

            I dont drink energy drinks. They are terribly unhealthy, and all they do to me is make me twitch XD

          • Stretch said on 9th November 2010, 11:37

            Jeez, running is some mutual circles with Ken Block, life doesn’t get much better.
            Sounds like a plan apart from I’m Aussie, a bit hard to travel to Newport Beach every day. And if I had Helmut’s job, Webber would have Vettels ‘better’ front wing. ;) And I’ll miss schoolies being overseas, and I can’t miss schoolies after 13 years of schooling.

            But apart from these set backs, it will show the marketing power of not “equally” supporting the RB drivers.

            On the other hand, Red Bull does support ALOT of other sports (motorcross, BMX, rallying, motoGP, surfing and other niche sports I cannot think of atm) that I enjoy (even though F1 is probs the most enjoyable) and they would be the first to go when RB start losing profits.

      • I already do! I never buy anything that is square headed. Period.
        As far as Webber, I can imagine I difficult must have been to wade all year in such hypocris.
        It shows the true character of an Ozzie: let’s stop the crap and let’s go a win us a WDC.
        GO Webber GO!!!

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 6:27

      Helmut Marko, who is in charge of RBR, has done everything he can to block Webber’s title chances so that Vettel can have every chance of winning the title.

      Marko might want Vettel to win Red Bull’s first WDC, but there’s not much he can do about it anymore. Mateschitz wants the race to be a race even if it costs them a title, and Horner has said he’ll support whatever play Webber and Vettel decide amongst themselves.

      The only problem is that if Vettel wins, there’s going to be talk of conspiracy against Webber. And if Vettel lets Webber through – even if he does it completely off his own bat – Red Bull will look like hypocrites.

      • TommyC said on 9th November 2010, 6:52

        they just can’t win. maybe a double retirement would be the most diplomatic solution…

        • monsol said on 9th November 2010, 8:38

          Yuppers, let them not show up at Yas Marina

        • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 10:21

          They can. There’s a reason why Ferrari sent a coded message in Germany: because they know someone is listening. And they knew the world could very well hear it. If Vettel gets on the radio and says “Okay, guys, I think I should let Webber through” and the team replies “It’s your choice” (or words to that effect), they’ll be in the clear.

          • monsol said on 9th November 2010, 10:45

            Anything on team radio, no matter how innocent it may sound, can be a prearranged coded message. So, people may read those lines differently. “It’s your choice” might mean “Yield or else…” and people would never know.

            BTW, Ferrari’s “coded” message was awfully coded. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to prearrange any message like “your brakes are overheating” or whatever to mean “OK, you MUST yield now”

      • Maciek said on 9th November 2010, 10:40

        And you actually take what they all say at face value? Rather selective in your cynicism, eh?

    • Mr. Wrong said on 9th November 2010, 17:16

      You’re missing the vodka, it makes it taste much better.

  4. goWebber said on 9th November 2010, 3:24

    We now know who’s camp the boss is in.

  5. funny how no one thinks Webber will out qualify Vettel, because he has been able to do it some of the time and im quite sure he is going to this coming Weekend.

    by the way teams are aloud to change positions, in the rules this late into the championship to effect the outcome of the title, even if Vettel lets Webber through he will not be punished for doing so.
    when Ferrari did it, it was against the rules hence the fine.
    yeah i know stupid isn’t it.

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 6:29

      It’s not stupid at all. A driver should have the right to compete for the championship. Massa was still a possibility of winning at the time, however remote. Ferrari shouldn’t have robbed him of that; he might not have dropped out of the running entirely with that second place, but it only make his job harder.

      • Astonished said on 9th November 2010, 9:39

        I respectfully but completely disagree. Why do you have the right to deprive a driver of a Victory if you do not have the right to deprive him from a championship?
        This is not a discrete function, it is a continuum. Quantitative and not qualitative.
        Either Team or driver should be clear to everybody from day one, then as an employee (a driver) you have the right to choose the company (team) you work for.

        • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 9th November 2010, 10:24

          Why do you have the right to deprive a driver of a Victory if you do not have the right to deprive him from a championship?

          But they weren’t depriving Alonso of a championship. Even if he finished second at Hockenheim, he’d still be leading the championship. And Alonso was not being deprived of a race win by finishing second because the natural race order saw him in second. If he was deprived of a race win, it was because he could not pass Massa on his own.

          • Astonished said on 9th November 2010, 10:28

            It was a rhetorical question :-)

            Anyhow, I am reffering to the right to deprive VETEL of a victory at Yas Marina. And I understand that you are ok with this.

          • Astonished said on 9th November 2010, 10:29

            Sorry for double post. Monsol, just below, goes to my point in a much clearer manner.

    • monsol said on 9th November 2010, 9:05

      The rules ban team orders that affect the race outcome in every circumstance. They are exactly as forbidden now as they were in the Hockenheim GP.

      That said, a 100.000 fine would surely not stop a team from doing it. And if they do in a subtler way than Ferrari did they’ll probably avoid the fine anyway, as it will be harder to prove.

  6. I find it quite suspicious that Webber engine ‘heated’ having being run only 19 laps before in Korea. I think there is some sort of manipulation here as to stop Webber passing vettel.

    • rubin said on 9th November 2010, 8:42

      I do too, however when you look back it would be easy enough to see why:
      traffic, and the high altitude and reduced oxygen means the engine is working harder to produce less. I seem to remember the BBC guys mentioning earlier in the year the turbulent air is effective out to about 2 seconds gap, which WEB was running at for most of the race.

      Having said that, I couldn;t think of a more deserving person to win than WEB, and by all reports he is one of the most respected drivers in the paddock and deserves a WDC. I would hazard a guess and say if he did win, he won’t come back.

    • That was just as sudden as Vettel’s massive engine blowout in Korea. A perfectly fine engine, well inside the mileage lifetime just disintegrated over 20 seconds.

  7. COJones said on 9th November 2010, 4:34

    Since Alonso supports Ferrari’s anything-goes-to-win philosophy he’ll have no complaint when Vettel knocks his ass into the wall in turn one and Webber or Hamilton grab the title. Eh?

    Also, was that an electric F1 car that Putin was, supposedly, doing 150 mph in? I couldn’t hardly hear a sound and the video must’ve been in triple slo-mo.

    • monsol said on 9th November 2010, 9:11

      Yes of course, they are installing machine guns in the Ferrari nose to blow up everything in front of them. Is that what you mean by “anything-goes?”

      • COJones said on 9th November 2010, 16:35

        No, I was referring to one driver giving a position to another. That is hardly ethical and certainly isn’t in the definition of racing. F1 should return to single car teams and eliminate this entire controversy.

        • monsol said on 9th November 2010, 20:52

          Taking out a driver on purpose is quite in another league. Not that it hasn’t been done before, anyway. But it was worth a full-year DSQ for MSC in ’97 (Estoril) even though he never admitted having done it on purpose. It might mean 0 points for the full year for both RBR’s. And anyway Vettel would probably not want to ruin his race and reputation for the benefit of Webber. They probably would use ALG as a rear gunner, he seemed overly keen to block both ALO and HAM at Interlagos.

          Ferrari will have nothing to complain about if the RBR’s switch positions. People may not like it but it has been done any mumber of ocassions you can think of, and by almost every team. And it will continue to be done so get over it, the most you can expect it that it will be subtler.

  8. Mel Hutchinson said on 9th November 2010, 5:22

    Red Bull racing’s Dietrich Mateschitz actually said “We don’t manipulate things like Ferrari do.” Really? Does he remember the British Grand Prix? I’ll remind him that after Sebastian Vettel’s front wing broke in the final free practice session they took the front wing off Mark Webber’s car and put it on Sebastian Vettel’s car. Christian Horner said ” the team had a duty to hand the wing to the driver who was leading the championship.” Maybe people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

    • Spot on! Perfect analogy.

    • DavidS said on 9th November 2010, 7:49

      The actual quote is:

      Therefore it came to me to make a difficult decision as to which car it went on. A situation like that is not ideal and it doesn’t happen very often. It went to Sebastian based on Championship position, his performance in P3 and the drivers’ feedback on the different front wings from yesterday.
      Christian Horner

      From this article.
      http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/07/10/should-webber-have-got-red-bulls-new-front-wing-instead-of-vettel-poll/

      • Palle said on 9th November 2010, 21:50

        Yes, and the analysis before the qualifying showed that Webber didn’t benefit from the new front wing – his mechanic said that Webber didn’t even want it. So naturally RBR decides to put it on Vettels car. After the decision Webber or his fans and the British press use the event to create a situation where the team must give him better conditions in the future to make it look equal…
        But for most of You it doesn’t matter what Red Bull does – You hate them anyway. Even if they strongly favoured Webber and succeeded in getting him a championship after he himself threw his lead away in the wall in Korea, You would still hate Red Bull. You would somehow twist the events to fit Your scheme of Webber being almost always treated unjust in that team…
        Some of You are also criticizing Red Bull for not favouring Webber more in order to increase odds to win the WDC, but admit that if Vettel had the most points of those two, You would demand them to do exactly what they are doing now. So who is the hypocrites?
        I think it is the best medication against Ferrari lack of sporting morals to show the bravery to declare its “better to lose than to do a Ferrari”. This declaration sets Ferrari and the FIA’s scandalous small punishment in a blazing light;-)

  9. Kenneth said on 9th November 2010, 5:53

    I hope all u guyz against the NO TEAM ORDER Red bull policy, understand this, Ferrari & Red bull as brands have a critical difference of objectives as to why they are in this sport, Red bull is a mass appeal brand and driven more less by marketing & Brand decisions whereas Ferrari (forget Santander & Shell) are driven by win a race regardless decisions.

    That’s why all this debate and word of mouth generated by team orders, ironically benefits both Red bull and Ferrari, in their respective markets, Red bull have proved beyond reasonable doubt to its consumers that they are sport, kool, fair and energy. On the other hand Ferrari consumers are like their brand, they are ruthless, gross, show offs, and don’t care about anything but winning, look at your neighbor who owns a Ferrari? U think he or she cares about sport, morals or fair play
    Red bull is 99.9 marketing…….THEY HAVE ALREADY WON
    The real losers are us the McLaren’s we have missed out on word of mouth and debate all of a sudden we don’t exist

  10. Rahim.RG said on 9th November 2010, 6:23

    I Love Red Bull
    It gives you wings…
    No Wait….sometimes it takes away too…
    but i still love it….
    Go VetBer Go Webtel…

  11. Fantastic, Ferrari will have more opportunities. But I do not think they (Red Bull) will act like that.

    • “Fantastic, Ferrari will have more opportunities.”

      After being beaten to the constructors title by a soft drinks manufacturer, they certainly need to be making the most of any “opportunities”, illegal or otherwise.

      Go Massa! But don’t forget those immortal words: “Fernando-is-faster-than-you”

      I can hardly wait for the: “If it wasn’t for blah blah blah” arguments on Sunday. LOL

      • monsol said on 9th November 2010, 10:56

        Of course there will be plenty of “if whatever…” arguments next Sunday, it’s simply human nature. And in such a contested championship there’s plenty of food for it. Any of the four present contenders would have the WDC several races ago if their driving mistakes/mech failures/arguable penalties had been avoided BUT not their rivals’.

        But anyway, give it enough “ifs” and “buts” and even Sakon YAmamoto could have won the present WDC.

  12. Regis said on 9th November 2010, 7:04

    I hope everyone understands that he is only saying that because Vettle is second to Webber.

    We all know that his man is Vettel and that’s who he wants to win.

    Should Vettel be leading the championship i know for sure he would keep his mouth shut…

  13. Hairs said on 9th November 2010, 7:05

    in an exclusive interview with Peter Windsor.

    Even though I’ve been a Lotus fan since the early 1960s I was always a bit nervous about the whole “Lotus returns to F1” story this year because nothing – in the early months – seemed to ring true.


    Says Peter Windsor.

    It is to laugh.

  14. Aussie Fan said on 9th November 2010, 7:34

    Relax everyone he’s just saying that to save himself being slapped with a $100000 ‘bill’ when they swap places at the next race. :-)

  15. Kenneth said on 9th November 2010, 8:27

    Aussie Fan,
    THERE WILL BE NO TEAM ORDERS I can guarantee U THAT, RB(corporate) has achieved, its core marketing objective, however, what we need to watch out for is weather the RB racing team, has been sold into the RB(corporate philosophy) This is where the problem might be for team Red Bull. The internal customers i.e. the engineers etc might not be on the same page with the corporate mgt group and we can’t underestimate this conflict, marketing group Vs racing team…
    Ofcos the best scenario would be them winning the world championship as well…BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF the Red bull brand ideology…remember Red bull is in so many other sport events esp extreme sport, this is only part of their overall strategy so they can afford to risk it (the f1 world championship)

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