FIA rubber-stamps 2014 engine rules

2014 F1 season

Honda V6 turbo F1 engine, 1984

Honda V6 turbo F1 engine, 1984

The FIA has formally approved the change in engine regulations for the 2014 season.

In a statement issued on Wednesday the sport’s governing body said: “Following a fax vote by its members, the World Motor Sport Council has ratified the engine regulations recently drawn up in consultation with the main stakeholders in Formula 1.

“The new power plant will be a V6 1.6 turbo unit with energy recovery systems. This new formula will come into effect as from the start of the 2014 FIA Formula 1 world championship season.”

The current normally-aspirated 2.4-litre V8 engines with Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems will remain in use in 2012 and 2013.

Turbocharged engines were last used in F1 in 1988.

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151 comments on FIA rubber-stamps 2014 engine rules

  1. BasCB (@bascb) said on 29th June 2011, 22:39

    So we will have Turbo’s!

    Hooray to having more scope for technical development. Lets hope the rules get implemented in a way to allow yearly engine spec homologation, but new things coming in on a year to year basis.

    • HoHum (@hohum) said on 29th June 2011, 23:16

      I’m wondering if any team will take the risk of building a 179 degree V6, and if they do what will the FIA do about it.

      • JustAnF1Fanatic (@justanf1fanatic) said on 29th June 2011, 23:54

        i think the degrees of the V will be specified, IIRC i think its 90 degrees? ill look for the link…

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 0:16

          Yep, spect your right.

          • Jay said on 30th June 2011, 2:13

            Remember Renault came up with the 110 Degree V a couple years ago? It significantly improved their traction I remember due to the lower centre of gravity.

            Doing a flat 6 would be pretty awesome! The flat 4s on Subarus sound awesome in my book, I wonder how a flat 6 will sound?

          • @Jay Ever heard of a car named Porsche 911?

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 4:52

        I’m wondering if any team will take the risk of building a 179 degree V6, and if they do what will the FIA do about it.

        Why on earth would any manufacturer develop an engine with an incredibly risky and untried concept just to spite the rules?

        • Calum (@calum) said on 30th June 2011, 6:10

          To gain an advantage over the competitors and ultimately beat them over the course of a season.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 6:37

            To gain an advantage over the competitors and ultimately beat them over the course of a season.

            But there’s no proof that a 179-degree engine will even work. I know that a manufacturer’s first priority is to make the most reliable and compeititve engine they can, but that’s not what HoHum is suggesting. He’s been a very vocal critic of the 2014 engine regulations because he thinks they are only making Formula 1 a spec series. So I know exactly what he’s doing by suggesting a 179-degree engine – he’s not encouraging teams to try and make something competitive, he’s encouraging them to spite the FIA first.

            A 179-degree engine is a stupid idea because the engine itself will be wider than if it were 90-degrees or modelled on Renault’s 110-degree design. This will force the bodywork of the car to be wider to accomodate it, and will spread the weight out across the rear instead of concentrating it in one place to form the optimal centre of gravity. 179 degrees will also make parts of the engine harder for mechanics to access, meaning that if the car is in trouble, it will take them longer to make repairs.

            Is all of that really worth the trouble of manufacturers raising their middle finger at the FIA?

          • F1Yankee (@f1yankee) said on 30th June 2011, 9:11

            flat, boxer or 180 degree engines have a poor form factor for f1 cars, as well as having poor load-bearing performance.

            a v6 is properly balanced at 60, 120 or 180 degrees, although the mp4/4 had an 80 degree honda v6.

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 16:27

            Prisoner Monkey, I will leave the spite to you, my concern is only to allow the engineers to develop the best engine they can for a given capacity and to see a car be able to overtake another car because its power output is superior at that point, whether it is better low-down torque for accelerating out of a corner or better top-end power for top-speed on the straights.Bring back different engine concepts and cars will have different strengths and weakness’ on the track.

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 16:38

            F1 YANKEE, you may be right about the structural rigidity of a flat-boxer engine but for sure the center of gravity will be lower than a 90 deg. V6 and as for width at 1.6 L. and 6 cyl the stroke will be very short and the engine much narrower than the sidepods. Didn’t we discuss this before?

          • F1Yankee (@f1yankee) said on 1st July 2011, 10:13

            actually, the overall center of gravity would be higher with a flat engine. the lower the clutch, the lower everything else is. a v always provides the lowest clutch.

            packaging the external components would be a performance downgrade for f1, especially the exhaust manifolds which would be super wide and end up raising the motor to get clearance on the floor anyway. with a v, the whole thing fits into the smallest, tidiest package.

    • Tim said on 30th June 2011, 6:35

      this is ridiculous, f1 has slowly degenerated into this giant exploitation scheme where fia dont give 2 craps about what the fans think. we want v10. remember the cars of 2004

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 6:54

        we want v10

        No, you want V10s. There are some fans out there – myself included – who do not. You do not speak for the majority (and if you did, this is not the place to be doing that because the FIA don’t visit the blog).

        remember the cars of 2004

        I do. I also remmeber than 2004 was one of the most boring seasons in the sport’s history. Remember 2010? That was one of the best seasons in Formula 1. I’d happily sacrifice big, bruiser engines if it means that the racing was closer and the emphasis was on driver skill.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th June 2011, 7:47

          the FIA don’t visit the blog

          Says you.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 8:00

            Keith, how many times has your name (and the name of the blog) come up in FIA statements? When was the last time Jean Todt said “That keith Collantine guy knows his stuff, so from now on, we’re just going to listen to him.

            My point is that if the FIA do visit, they don’t make their presence known.

          • GameR_K (@gamer_k) said on 30th June 2011, 8:15

            @PM contradictions at it’s best :)

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th June 2011, 8:21

            My point is that I’m far better placed to know who reads this site than you are.

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 16:48

          PM if you want the racing to be closer and the emphasis is on driver skill there are any number of one-design series out there for you to watch and follow eg,GP2.F2,F Atlantic, Indycar. If that is what you want go to sites that follows those formulae and leave F1 to the fans who want to see their team build the best possible car and engine.

        • David-A (@david-a) said on 30th June 2011, 18:22

          I do. I also remmeber than 2004 was one of the most boring seasons in the sport’s history. Remember 2010? That was one of the best seasons in Formula 1.

          I don’t really care whether we have V10ss or V8s, but swap “2004” for “2003” and “2010 for “2009” and you’ll suddenly find the V10s looking as if they produce better racing.

      • Gwenouille said on 30th June 2011, 8:18

        I do not want V10.
        I’d prefer a nice, efficient, compact and powerful V6 turbo please.

        • Adrian J (@adrian-j) said on 30th June 2011, 11:49

          Me too…though it might be a squeeze getting it into my little VW Polo..!!

          OH! You meant in F1. Yes please to that as well!!

          • topdowntoedown (@topdowntoedown) said on 30th June 2011, 13:24

            I’d love a V10 in my car. Preferably the one from the Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4. I’d quite like the outside of the car to be a Lambo too.

        • Douglas 62500 said on 30th June 2011, 13:30

          Me too, but what I do not really understand is that people are saying that the current NA engines inefficient. How !?!? 750hp+ from a 2.4L inefficient ? Yes it does only 4mpg but 4mpg for that kind of speed should mean that it is incredibly efficient. What’s more encouraging the engine manufacturers to make the engines rev higher mean that they could develop ways of making them withstand stress better, which could be used to good effect on road car engines. Anyway I guess things would settle if the 1.6 V6T develop at least equivalent performances to the current 2.4L V8.

  2. F1Yankee (@f1yankee) said on 29th June 2011, 22:39

    to celebrate, i’m bringing something else back from the 80’s:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmcA9LIIXWw

  3. lundis (@lundis) said on 29th June 2011, 22:40

    Do we know if rev limits were included? I’d have expect that they’d have to be for the regulations to be ratified.

    14000, 16000?

  4. Klemen said on 29th June 2011, 22:52

    Approximately how much horsepower will these newely agreed engines have?

    • Herman (@herman) said on 29th June 2011, 22:57

      Overall power is 750 bhp, but I think that includes KERS power so you have to subtract the power of the KERS units which will have double power, so I believe that is 750 bhp – 160 bhp meaning the engine will have about 590 bhp.

      • BasCB (@bascb) said on 29th June 2011, 23:04

        exactly.

      • sato113 (@sato113) said on 30th June 2011, 1:41

        that’s not very much is it? how much do we have atm?

        • Calum (@calum) said on 30th June 2011, 4:19

          750bhp + 80bhp KERS I think.

        • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 6:59

          that’s not very much is it?

          You don’t simply get more power by putting more horsepower in. The trick is in how effectively you get that horsepower into the wheels. You can have a 500bhp engine out-strip a 750-bhp one simply because it has a better power-to-weight ratio and more torque.

          • bertie said on 30th June 2011, 7:49

            Utter nonsense

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 7:58

            It’s only a vague illustration. The point is that more horsepower does not automatically mean more speed. It’s like the suggestion that Formula 1 should go back to V12s because they are noisier and more powerful … well, sure they are, but they’re also twice as big and twice as heavy as a V6.

          • Adrian J (@adrian-j) said on 30th June 2011, 12:03

            Utter nonsense

            Not entirely. A V6 will by it’s very nature be smaller and hence lighter than the current V8’s, so won’t need as much power to perform equally.

            For example, the Aston Martin Vantage is available with either a V8 or a V12. The V8 has 425bhp (some models do have less) and gives a 0-60 time of 4.3 seconds. The V12 has 510bhp and gives a 0-60 time of 4.1 seconds. The top speed of the V12 is 190mph, a whopping 1mph faster than the V8. Not a huge gain for nearly 100bhp extra.

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 15:20

            Well at last PM you are beginning to understand what I am talking about although your example is way to simplistic.

    • Huron (@huron) said on 30th June 2011, 2:27

      People still measure engine power in terms of horsepower?

  5. AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 29th June 2011, 22:55

    Looking forward to turbos.

  6. HoHum (@hohum) said on 29th June 2011, 23:02

    Sorry to be a Cassandra but the FIA are just taking us back to the policy that forced Max M out in 2008 albeit in a round about way. For those of you who do not remember, the FIA wanted all teams to use a Cosworth engine of FIA approved design and power output (modest), if teams wanted to they could build and badge the engine from the cosworth design but could not improve its power output, max revs etc,By limiting the rpm and power output to about half that of 30 years ago they are effectively making the engine irrelevant, and if they were really concerned with being green they could switch to Ethanol fuel a renewable resource used for racing in the USA. Or they could limit engine size to 750cc turbos with hybrid powertrains, using the standard of 30 years ago a 750cc turbo should produce a reliable 500 hp with additional kers power in a smaller lighter package than that being proposed and which will be limited to 500 hp with additional Kers power.
    Once the engine has been standardised the front and rear wings will be next.

    • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 1:27

      Try selling a 750cc F1 engine to ‘the fans’.

      Even MotoGP is going up from 800 to 1000cc for next season.

      In order to have something that ‘fans’ can relate to, I’m afraid that its going to get limited in some way.

      • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 2:58

        Yes but you have to admit it would give the green angle a bit of cred and 500hp is still 500hp.

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 3:17

          And personally I think I would love to see each team building 200 mph cars with its own unique 750cc engine doing around 25000 rpm and putting out 650 to 750 hp, a lot more than I am going to love watching them use virtually identical strangled 1600cc engines with restricted revs and less power.

          • ivz (@ivz) said on 30th June 2011, 11:02

            Gee, how F1 has become a play thing for the FIA. Too bad there can’t be a series of F1 made for the fans! lol.

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 7:10

      Sorry to be a Cassandra but the FIA are just taking us back to the policy that forced Max M out in 2008 albeit in a round about way.

      No, the standardised engine is not what forced Mosley out. In fact, standardised engines were never a part of the proposed 2009 rules.

      There are two things that sent Mosley packing: 1) he wanted to implement a strict budget cap, one that would limit the teams in how much they could spend in a season; this was designed to dramatically cut down costs, since Honda at Toyota were spending $400 million each in a single season at the height of the worst recession since the Great Depression. And 2) Mosley wanted to encourage teams to run under the budget cap by allowing them greater technical and design freedom (includng, bizzarely, four-wheel drive …), and intended to do this by writing a second set of rules for teams that nominated to run under this scheme; the teams didn’t like this because it created what they called a “two-tier” championship.

      Standardised engines were never a part of the FIA agenda. It’s true, Mosley did propose a “world engine” that all cars competing in FIA-sancitioned championships would use, but the idea never took and it was dropped well before the 2008 maelstrom.

      I get that you don’t like the 2014 engine regulations, but if you are going to persist in arguing your case, please make sure you get your basic facts straight before you post. All you’re going to do is make yourself look silly and reduce the credibility of your argument.

      • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 15:27

        ” it’s true Mosley did propose a ” world engine” that all cars competing in FIA-sanctioned championships would use,”
        Well here’s some news for you PM, F1 is a FIA-sanctioned series. My facts are straight.

  7. MVEilenstein (@mveilenstein) said on 29th June 2011, 23:27

    I see the FIA has agreed to parrot Indycar a year later. Way to stay on the cutting edge!

  8. Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 30th June 2011, 2:45

    Nice!

    I don’t like the idea of having 6 years old engines by 2013, though.

    • Fixy (@fixy) said on 30th June 2011, 9:55

      Agreed.

      • Quin10-10 said on 30th June 2011, 18:30

        Agree also. What’s the big holdup? Indycar’s new engine rules were first proposed about a year ago and Honda is saying theirs will be testing in August if the new chassis is ready. Lotus(Judd) and Chevrolet probably are on a similar schedule. Come on FIA, you flip-flop all the time on rules, could you please shave at least one year off the introduction date?

  9. Valentino said on 30th June 2011, 3:20

    I don’t see why everyone is liking this V6 engine idea,..?!
    Ferrari should step out of F1, this is ridiculous,..
    Imagine a V6 Enzo Ferrari, or a V4 Ferrari Scuderia,…just plain stupid,..
    And also turbos?! This is for 15 y.o. kids who have a Golf GTI,..give me a break,..
    Whats next?! They are probably going to introduce an Electric Engine F1 car,…this is destroying the concept of F1,..
    i thought that F1 was the king of Motorsport,…

    • Boomerang said on 30th June 2011, 6:39

      With your technical knowledge I think you should run for FIA presidency.

      Someone intrinsically ignorant would give advantage to atmospherically aspirated engine over a turbo.

      • AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 30th June 2011, 8:20

        Frustrating, isn’t it?!

      • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 15:38

        OK Boomer, thems fighting words,.Do you not realise that to get the best “turbo” engine you have to start with the best atmo engine, then if the bottom end is strong enough and you can dissipate the heat you can virtually have any horsepower you want simply by increasing the boost and fuel flow. Forced induction is crude bolt-on hp effective,yes,
        adjustable, yes, the pinnacle of motor engineering,no.

        • Boomerang said on 30th June 2011, 15:59

          Efficiency defines what is or what isn’t pinnacle of motor engineering. If you can build normally aspirated engine with better efficiency then turbo I’ll kiss you wherever you wont me to :-)

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 30th June 2011, 7:17

      Honestly, I think that by now over 60% of European motorists have an engine with Turbo in it.

      From the powerfull Audi’s and Nissans down to the tiny turbo Fiats, Citroens and Cevrolets with 0.8 l turbo’s to get solid power from lightweight engines.

    • Dr. Mouse said on 30th June 2011, 12:10

      And also turbos?! This is for 15 y.o. kids who have a Golf GTI,..give me a break,..

      Why?

      My car has a turbo. I’m nearly 30, and it is a car chosen for reliability, practicality and economy (FYI VW Bora 1.9TDi PD130, lovely car).

      There is nothing wrong with a V6, I4, V4, V2, or W16 engine. All have their pros and cons. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with turbos. There is nothing wrong with KERS (except it’s regulated limitations in F1, IMHO). What matters is is how the teams choose to implement them.

      Whats next?! They are probably going to introduce an Electric Engine F1 car,…this is destroying the concept of F1,..

      The concept of F1, in my oppinion, is to be the most technically advanced motor racing formula in the world (others may have different ideas, each to their own). On this matter, a V8 engine is a very old concept. F1 should be pushing the boundaries. A KERS system, for instance, is a very advanced peice of kit offering significant advantages. Running a smaller, lighter engine putting out similar power has very significant advantages.

      Personally, the only thing I don’t like about the new regs is that they have specified a V6. I would have set a 6-cylinder limit, and a 2.4l displacement limit, then left them to design the best engine possible.

      Ferrari should step out of F1, this is ridiculous,..

      We can all hope…
      (joke, in case anyone didn’t realise…)

    • SoerenKaae (@soerenkaae) said on 30th June 2011, 17:10

      I don’t see why everyone is liking this V6 engine idea,..?!
      And also turbos?! This is for 15 y.o. kids who have a Golf GTI,..give me a break,..

      I don’t see why anyone is against it either. Turbocharged engines have and always will be the best engine for racing. Atleast, that is, if you know how to use it.

      In all racing the key to success has always been light and powerful cars. A turbocharged engine is exactly that: light and powerful!
      And on top of that it has various other advantages over naturally aspirated engines.

      Yes the sound is different but seriously. Would you have rated last years championship battle any lower, just because the pitch of the engine noise changed down two octaves?
      That argument is IMO useless.

  10. Jack_Burton said on 30th June 2011, 3:45

    I am rooting for some sort of engine development war to take place. I enjoy the sport being defined by the constructors more than the constraints of the FIA.

  11. wasiF1 (@wasif1) said on 30th June 2011, 4:32

    Good to see that Fota & Fia are doing work together as they need to.

  12. Snow Donkey said on 30th June 2011, 4:36

    In my opinion, this engine format seems to stradle the fence. It’s not really innovative and cutting edge, and it’s not big engines. Kind of meh.

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 10:07

      What is this fixation with big engines, as if they are automatically better? Back in the 1980s, Peugeot Sport (which was being run by Jean Todt at the time) was experimenting with the Peugeot 205 T16 E2 rally car under Group B rules. They decided to put the biggest and throatiest engine that they could find into the car. Juha Kankkunen said that when they fired it up the first time, they blew the head gaskets off. And it’s not like the head gasket just split – it literally blew up and cracked the chassis. You read that right: the car was unable to handle the first engine they put into it.

  13. Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 7:01

    Apparently these are the full parameters for the next generation of engines:

    – 1.6-litre, six-cylinder turbos with energy recovery and fuel restrictions to replace current 2.4-litre normally aspirated V8s.

    – Fuel efficiency to increase by 35%.

    – Maximum revs of 15,000rpm.

    – Power of energy-recovery systems to double.

    – Overall power to remain at approx 750bhp.

    – Checks and balances to ensure costs are contained and performance across all engines remains comparable.

    – Plan for advanced ‘compound’ turbos to be introduced in subsequent years.

    Although I’m not 100% certain of the source; it’s a report from another forum I frequent.

    • Dutch_Alex said on 30th June 2011, 8:21

      Is that power output with or without KERS? Because the in the proposed 2013 rules the engines had only 600bhp, with a 150bhp KERS unit. I hope this has changed, but I fear the worst.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 8:39

        I don’t know. And once again, raw horsepower figures don’t really mean anything. After all, people have been calling for a return to V12s, and while V12s might produce more power than V6 engines, they’re also twice as big and twice as heavy as V6s – and Formula 1 is a sport where teams are always doing everything they can to reduce the weight of their cars. Raw horsepower is only half the equation.

        • Jim said on 30th June 2011, 10:38

          You’ve made this assertion more than once, but is a “standard” V12 really twice as big and heavy as a V6 with turbocharger and ERS? Batteries (or flywheels) are heavy too, and turbochargers are not trivial.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 30th June 2011, 11:25

            Can you see the sport abandoning energy recovery systems?

          • SoerenKaae (@soerenkaae) said on 30th June 2011, 17:20

            Of course it isnt twice as heavy, but I support PM in this issue. People dont seem to understand that simply adding cylinder does not add infinite amounts of power.

            The goal is to create a high performance engine with low weight and a low centre of gravity.

            Lets start with the current V8 engine:
            You cannot create a lighter engine by adding more cylinders, that is a fact. So if you are to be under a certain weight but want maximum power you try to increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine as much as possible. This is easily done by shaving off some of the cylinders lets say 2, you reinforce the block, the cylinderhead etc. Then you add a turbo, and increase the amount of fuel that can be burnt in each cylinder.

            VOILA, a V6 turbocharged engine.

          • javlinsharp said on 30th June 2011, 20:57

            Lets have a nice juicy V/W10 @20k rpms with Turbo, and for extra boost, swap the KERS for Nitrous Oxide. Now *thats* an engine combination :-)

            Anybody want to argue the Power to Weight Ratio now?

            fine print: probably will need traction control, muuuuuch more downforce and wider rear tires WHEEEEE

        • Dipak T said on 30th June 2011, 12:11

          I dont know, I think its that more people have been calling for the mandated engine on its own to be able to have a similar power output as the current NA V8’s. I would hope most have realised that the V12’s fell out of use because they were not competitive, as opposed to what happened with the V10’s.

          I think this is a good compromise, but ultimately, this homologation cannot last for long. Maybe by the time the compound turbos come in, they will be an open component, along with a max fuel restriction?

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 19:10

            True, for the same capacity the V12 was to long, pity we never got a chance to see how a W12 would have worked.

        • topdowntoedown (@topdowntoedown) said on 30th June 2011, 13:34

          A two-litre V12 and two-litre V6 produce exactly the same power for a given volume of fuel and air put into them.

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 15:47

            But the rotating mass of each individual cylinder will be less in a V12 allowing higher rpm and thus more air and fuel can flow through.

  14. VXR said on 30th June 2011, 11:32

    It should be noted that the new V6 turbo engines will be gifted with far more torque than the current V8 2.4 litre engines could ever dream of.

    The V8 Toyota F1 engine was reputed to develop just over 200 ft/lbs of torque at its peak, very high up in the rpm range. That is just slightly more than a 1.6 turbo petrol engine in a road going car!

    Todays F1 drivers are only complaining about the gutlessness of current F1 engines and not about the total peak power that they produce.

  15. VXR said on 30th June 2011, 11:53

    There was also some talk that the cars would only be powered by KERS (engine at idle) when entering and leaving the pit lane.

  16. Adrian J (@adrian-j) said on 30th June 2011, 12:11

    Remember when the sport moved from V10’s to V8’s, everyone said it was the end of F1?

    2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010 are all seasons that would beg to differ…especially 2010.

    Suppose, just suppose, that the introduction of these Turbo charged V6’s actually improves the racing…

    I for one can’t wait!!

    • AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 30th June 2011, 13:45

      That’s the point right there. People come on here spouting off that the engines will lack power.

      For one, I seriously doubt they actually know what they’re talking about, they just see smaller numbers than they’re used to and jump to conclusions. It’s all about the efficiency.

      • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 15:02

        Back in 88 the best turbo engine was used in the McLaren’s, it was Honda’s RA168E turbo 1.5 V6 engine, providing just 685 bhp @ 12,500 rpm in qualifying trim.

        I don’t remember thinking that those cars were slow, even compared to the more powerful turbos from the previous year.

        For comparison. Fords V8 3.5 litre engine of the same year, produced 585 bhp @ 11,000 rpm.

    • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 15:56

      It’s not the noise, it’s not the power, it’s the absolute sameness, the restrictions on power development and technical innovation that will harm the racing, as it already has, only PM thinks he knows which of the current engines is substantially the best.

      • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 16:58

        Why does restriction on power development and innovation harm the racing? The racing has already been harmed? How long have you been watching F1?

        The absolute ‘sameness’ is a safety net to keep what engine manufacturers there are still left in F1, staying in F1.

        Nothing will make an engine manufacturer leave faster than a manufacturer who comes up with the ideal solution to more open engine regulations. The appetite to spend loads of money on catching up, just isn’t there any more.

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 17:15

          A couple of manufacturers left because there was no longer a research and development factor for their engineers to gain knowledge from.

          • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 18:27

            Because the limits of power had already been reached some time ago with both naturally aspirated and turbo charged engines. You can only go so far with either. The only recourse left to the FIA was to restrict capacity, turbo boost and rpm limits.

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 17:42

          How long have I been watching Formula 1? Since 1964 on and off, how about you?

  17. VXR said on 30th June 2011, 12:17

    If these guys can do it….

    http://www.torquestats.com/modified/index.php?car_id=45

    Look at the torque figure, the bhp figure, and the rpms.

    • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 16:04

      EXACTLY, there are going to be Honda Civics driving around Los Angeles with the same power as the 2014 F1 car, the biggest problem the engineers are going to have will be keeping the power down to the FIA approved figure and they will never get anywhere near the rev limit at that hp.

      • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 17:13

        There are already a few cars driving around in many places with more power than an F1 car. But that’s not the point.

        The point is to make the engine provide the most amount power for the least amount of fuel used. Remember that the new engines will be subjected to a fuel flow limit.

        The engine revving to 15,000 rpm will mean that not as much boost from the turbo will be required in order to make the required bhp figure. Meaning that a smaller, more efficient turbo could be used to increase the ‘drivabiliy’ of the engine.

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 17:18

          That smaller turbo will either lack torque at the bottom end or run out of steam at the top end.

          • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 17:35

            Smaller turbos will take less time to spool up and will therefore provide more boost at lower engine speeds. The extra rpm given to the engines will mean that less turbo boost is needed at the top end of the rev range in order to achieve the required maximum power.

            Remember that the FIA have set a limit to maximum power. It may not be in the best interests of the engine designer to try to achieve that limit in order to have the ideal power plant.

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 30th June 2011, 17:50

          Yes, but to get that efficiency you mention they will need to run the turbo in its most efficient range and the engine also, so while the powerband will be broader than in the atmo engines it will still be concentrated over only a couple of thousand rpm. and less revs equals less friction.

          • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 17:57

            Modern variable vane, hybrid and twin scroll turbos are capable of operating over a very wide range of rpm. Together with 500 bar fuel injection, there should be no problems at all.

  18. George said on 30th June 2011, 13:19

    Have they said anything about DRS cus if KERS is twice as powerfull wil they really need DRS

    • VXR said on 30th June 2011, 13:46

      Yes, they will probably keep DRS if KERS can be used to cancel out an attack from the driver behind. The use of KERS normally cancels itself out as an overtaking aid, because most will use it at the same time and at the same places on a given circuit.

  19. Pato Milan said on 30th June 2011, 13:33

    They wanted Audi with the 4 cylinder turbos, now they must want Porsche and Nissan

    • Quin10-10 said on 30th June 2011, 19:07

      If Audi still wants to race an I-4 maybe they should try Indycar. That configuration is legal within their new rules package. I follow both series and would love to see them throw their hat in the ring. The more the Merrier!

  20. Pato Milan said on 30th June 2011, 13:35

    Ooops not Porsche those are straight

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