Mark Webber, Red Bull, Silverstone, 2011

Webber ignored Red Bull’s order not to pass Vettel

2011 British Grand PrixPosted on | Author Keith Collantine

Mark Webber, Red Bull, Silverstone, 2011
Mark Webber, Red Bull, Silverstone, 2011

Mark Webber said he ignored Red Bull’s order not to try to pass Sebastian Vettel at the end of the British Grand Prix.

Webber was closing on Vettel in the final laps of the race and was one second behind his team mate with two laps to go.

Webber was told on the team radio “Mark, we need to maintain the gap”.

After the race Horner said: “It’s a team result. Circumstances earlier in the race… Sebastian had a KERS issue that we were dealing with and the last thing you want to do is see the team give away a whole load of points.

“From a team point of view we decided that it was best to hold the positions in the final two laps.

“Obviously Mark disagreed with that. The thing is, I can understand he’s maybe a little bit frustrated, but from a team point of view we can’t afford to give away a whole load of points.

Asked if this meant Webber could no longer fight for the championship Horner said: “No, not at all.

“But you get to that stage in the race we’d managed situation earlier in the race to get Mark ahead, give him the undercut effectively, and with the final two laps it was entirely the sensible thing to do.

“The last thing you want to see is both of your drivers in the fence which is how that probably would have ended up.

“The message was quite clear to him, what the team expected of him – not what I expected, what the team collectively expected.”

Horner said Webber: “should be fine” with the team orders, adding: “It was crystal clear this morning when we went into the race that it was all about getting the most points we can out of this event.

“Obviously we’ve had a rear jack issue with Sebastian that cost him the track position to Fernando. That’s racing sometimes, these things can happen. Ferrari was quick today, second and third is still a very strong team result.”

But speaking in the post-race press conference Webber said he was not happy with the instructions.

He revealed the team had first instructed him to hold position “four or five laps” before the end.

He said: “I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”

Were Red Bull right to order Webber not to pass Vettel?

  • Yes (21%)
  • No (76%)
  • No opinion (2%)

Total Voters: 377

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347 comments on “Webber ignored Red Bull’s order not to pass Vettel”

  1. So all in all, we weren’t robbed of a battle it’s just that Webber couldn’t get the job done. Story of his season.

    1. But thats what he says, probably to try and quell the storm…

      1. …another team order “Mark, lie to the press”…lol

        1. Did Christian Horner really fear a repeat of Turkey 2010?

          1. WidowFactory
            10th July 2011, 22:12

            Yes. And given Vettel’s attempted overtaking record, that was entirely the right thing to expect

        2. ‘Maintain the gap.’

          I know we would never hear it, but I wish Mark said something along the lines of ‘**** you’ to his mechanic. Ridiculous and sickening. Almost worse than Ferrari last year consdering the lead Vettel has- except that of course that order is now ‘legal.’

          1. So you would say that to your employers?

          2. RB look worse than Ferrari to me, as Ferrari weren’t in the press last year saying “we would never have team orders” and “letting our drivers race is the RedBull ethos”, we’d rather come second racing than 1st with team orders”, yadda yadda yadda. Horner = full of it.

      2. Agreed. If this was true, Red Bull never would have needed to say anything.

        1. What on earth are you on about zenman1 and mike?

          “lie to the press” “if this was true”?? you’re saying you don’t think this was a team order? Horner stated it was and he’s the team principal?

          Here’s hopeing you cross the road when it’s red and believe that’s a lie to.

          1. Umm… no… Not quite.

            What I and I suspect zenman are suggesting is that the explanation that Webber tried to pass but couldn’t, is a lie.

            And for future reference, I obey the little red man. But I appreciate the death wish.

          2. Lame. Maybe you should hang out somewhere else for your Internet lulz. Wanting someone to get run over for having a comment is just whack.

          3. Oh, please! Can you really look at the footage and tell me that Webber wasn’t trying?

          4. He wasn’t on the last lap, that’s for sure.

      3. “But thats what he says, probably to try and quell the storm…”

        Agree…Diplomacy at its best.

        1. Mike the bike Schumacher (@mike-the-bike-schumacher)
          10th July 2011, 19:54

          No can’t agree wit u, u cud see webber was trying. Maybe he backed off at the very last lap but he was told 4 or 5 from the end to back off and it was easy to see he was trying hard to pass.

          1. Oh boy, cognitive dissonance is a killer. As the story goes for Mark’s fans and Vettel’s detractors (and that includes the entiry British fan base: 1000 times an Aussi than a Boche ahn?), Mark is the superior driver. But he is being consistently beaten in these 3 seasons. No doubt the team is holding Mark back! So when a message like the one of yesterday comes into the radio, these guys have a field day: confirmation!! But before you get all excited, consider these points:
            1. Mclaren once told Lewis to hold postion against Alonso in the Monaco GP. Reason? They wanted both cars to finish the race. Nobody considered Lewis to be relegated to 2nd driver because of that.
            2. Considering the reason the team gave, if the positions were reversed at that point,the team would have told Vettel to hold position.
            3. Take a look at the pit stops. In the first two, they actually gave the preferrence to Webber, holding Vettel out for longer – in the first round, it cut the advantage of Vettel to the pack by more than half – so much for 1st driver status.
            4. Contrary to what has been repeated, at least on TV, the order came at the hangar straight on the very last lap (in other words, with two curves to the end). Before that Webber was trying his heart out and after they gave the order he ignored it anyway. Conclusion: That is not what caused Vettel to beat Webber yesterday.

          2. Contrary to what has been repeated, at least on TV, the order came at the hangar straight on the very last lap

            According to Webber it came four or five laps before the end of the race and was issued several times.

            The team orders broadcasts you hear on the TV are not in real-time: they are delayed, sometimes by up to several laps.

          3. I don’t know Keith. In theory they could show the radio message with whatever delay they wanted to, but why would they? If we go with this version that they started to talk to him five laps to the end, and considering the lap times, it would have created a gap of around 8 minutes between the message being transmited and the TV guys showing it. Given the potential for excitement (outrage is excitement too) it defies belief, doenst it? When Ferrari asked Massa to roll over, TV showed it fast enough for Brudle to have time to speculate on how long it would take Felipe to obey the order(and Massa obeyed within the very same lap). Why was it different now? And on top of it, Mark is saying that it was not one, but a flurry of messages. Really? And only in the very end somebody in the studio thought it would be a good idea to let the public know what was going on? Call me a skeptic, but I think Mark is milking it.

          4. In theory they could show the radio message with whatever delay they wanted to, but why would they?

            I’m not speculating, I’m telling you they delay radio messages.

            Part of the reason is to avoid them broadcasting any swearing.

          5. Agreed Keith. They obviously control what goes on air and when, but TV has access to the radio messages in real time. Now, explain to me why, given that they were showing the fight between Webber and Vettel for the last 5 or 6 laps of the GP, they decided to delay this piece of information on what they were showing for the best part of ten minutes. Even stranger, if it was not one, but several messages.

          6. I was at the race and heard the message to Webber well before he got to Hangar straight on the last lap. I consider it fairly unlikely that I heard the message before Mark Webber.

            Keith is right, the radio messages on TV are always (not sometimes) delayed. I guess there must be an awful lot of messages and they all need listened to before a decision is taken which to broadcast. They don’t broadcast too many and there have been plenty of times when an interesting pit message isn’t relayed at all on the TV but comes to light only after the race.

    2. John Cleary
      10th July 2011, 15:25

      Well put!

      1. Antifia,

        Can agree with your point one, but not your point 2. Webber would have been compromised somewhere or other to get Vettel past him – maybe they got confused in the Pits and that is why Vettel had the long stop ;-)

        Also do not necessarily agree re the timing of pit stops. Vettel was in front and is leading the WDC, so no need to use him to find out if the track is suitable for Slicks – that’s what you have a no.2 driver for!

        Remember when Ruebens was told to move over for Shuey in OZ and he ignored it and went all the way to the line before slowing? That was him letting everyone know he could have won but for team orders. With Webber pushing up alongside Vettel he was telling the world the same thing.

        1. That was Austria, not Australia.

          But looking back at that race, what upset people so much was not team orders, but rather unnecessary team orders. Team orders have always been accepted as part of the sport. Hakkinen gave way to Coulthard and vice versa. Even Senna gave way to Berger to help his championship. What disgusted people so much about Austria 2002 was that Schumacher at that point had won so many races and had such a lead in the points that most fans felt they were robbed of a victory by someone other than Schumacher.

          In this case the circumstances are quite similar. Both Red Bull and Vettel have such an unassailable points lead at this point that not I nor anyone else I know who follows F1 can understand why Red Bull thought it necessary to tell their driver to hold station. In fact, going back to Senna and Berger, if they were concerned about the their cars coming together, it would have made more sense to tell Vettel to let Webber go.

          After all, if they’re going to make the “It’s for the team” argument, it should be noted that Webber needs the points more, from a team point-of-view.

    3. +1
      Though kudos for Webber for ignoring team orders, that’s what they’re for – the real F1 drivers ignore them.

      Webber’s race with Vettel was lost off the start.

      1. Agreed, Webber had the chance to get one over Seb, and wanted to take it, but couldn’t get it done.

        1. Webber would have been ahead of Vettel after Vettel’s pit lane drama, if he hadn’t had one of his own before hand.

        2. Thats part of what makes this whole debacle so stupid. Webber ignores team orders, which if we are honest wasn’t exactly unpredictable, and they ended up with the result they would have achieved had they said nothing at all. Webber had a go Vettel defended his position and both cars got home safe. The only things Horner has achieved are:
          1) Remove any lingering doubts that Mark may have had about being a number two driver and possibly create instability within the team.
          2) Completely destroy any piece of credibility you have with regards to team orders and in the process tarnish your reputation.

          This has turned out to be almost as messy as the FIA diffuser situation.

        3. Couldn’t get it done because of team orders.

          1. Firstly, being the F1 nerd that I am, Rubens pulled over in Austria ’02 not OZ. Anyway, watching the race live, and I am Australian and a MW fan, I agree with Horner’s request. Seb was in front, tyres were going off, there was no way of catching Alonso and Lewis and Massa were miles behind – hold position.

            I would have said that, everyone who was around at my place watching the race said the same thing. Turkey 2009 was an example of these kind of team orders (which in my mind they aren’t – to me TO are asking a driver in front to pull over for their team mate who is behind, especially nasty when both drivers are still in with a shot of the title, e.g. Germany ’10, Austria ’02) which went the other way – Webber in front of a flying Vettel with a handful of laps to go and no danger of either taking the lead of the race or from being passed for third.

            I hate to say it but Mark is simply being beaten this year and wanted to try and put one over vettel. Unfortunately for him it was too late in the race and he probably would have been in front of Seb had he not run off the track twice.

            So, I’ll say again: as a MW fan, RBR called it right. This is not like Germany last year, but like Turkey in ’09. And I do not remember that version of ‘team orders’ creating even a ripple amongst us fans…

          2. Couldn’t get it done because he ignored the order and didn’t pass anyway.

          3. +1 Clay.

    4. Sadly so. But good one for him giving it a try this time!

    5. streetfightingman
      10th July 2011, 15:37

      How true

    6. Not even Hamilton’s damage was terminal when he was overtaken on the outside by Massa. I’m sure Webber would have made a clean pass, if Vettel wouldn’t have turned into him, something not likely seeing his cautious manoeuvres when battling. Good job by Webber to ingore them.

    7. Isn’t team orders allowed from this year on? Why the fuss and a post to discuss that?

      1. I don’t think people saying it’s illegal.

        1. I don’t think people saying it’s illegal.

          I think the race was great. Theres more interesting features to discuss and praise.

          Hamilton’s and Alonsos’s drive, for example!

          Discuss team orders, and in Red Bull, is a waste of time and space. Sorry!

          1. Discuss team orders, and in Red Bull, is a waste of time and space.

            Clearly a lot of people are unhappy with what’s happened and I’m not going to stick my fingers in my ears.

            It’s not as if there aren’t plenty of other post-race articles for you to discuss other topics on.

          2. The only reason people are even bothered is the hypocrisy. Christian Horner clearly said that Red Bull are a team that allows their racers to RACE.

    8. Oh snap.

      1. Why are people saying Webber couldn’t get the job done?

        He attempted to pass a few times but backed off after assessing the move / risk (i.e. safe overtaking without taking both cars out).

        The impression that I got was that Webber ignored team orders 4 or 5 times before yielding at the end.

        1. When he ignored it for those 4-5 times you claim, did he pass? No. So the assessment that he couldn’t get the job done is right I’m afraid.

          1. It’s hard to pass when you’re nowhere near the driver. The order was “Maintain the gap” i.e. don’t cruise up to the back of him.

            No, he didn’t pass. He wasn’t robbed of a place. But he was told to not go for one, that’s the issue.

      2. LOL @ people that say “oh snap!”

    9. billfenner1967
      10th July 2011, 23:01

      Nah. I think if it had been anyone other than Vettel, he would have dived up the inside. But I think maybe at the end he though if I can’t get him cleanly on the straight then I’ll have to stay behind. So while Webber wants to defy his bosses, I think he also realises that it would have been a nightmare had he touched Vettel in an attempt to pass.

  2. Webber deserves better. I wouldn’t give Horner the time of day.

    1. Webber seeing red in 2011, wearing red in 2012.

      1. streetfightingman
        10th July 2011, 15:54

        And becoming the new Massa. i.e number 2.

        1. Exactly, he’s just not on Vettel’s level. I have no idea how any Webber fan can think he’s on Alonso’s level.

      2. DeadManWoking
        10th July 2011, 16:30

        Yes, you could see how chummy Domenicali and Webber were on the way to the podium today.

        1. Yes, you could see how chummy Domenicali and Webber were on the way to the podium today.

          That’s exactly what I thought. And Webber and Alonso have always been good friends.

          1. Domenicali was pretty chummy with Vettel too. I tried to get my camera out and take a picture but I was too slow.

  3. I’m going to get bashed for this!

    I think the Team Orders were the correct thing to do. The order wasn’t about Vettel and Webber, it was about them taking each other out (which would have been disastrous). Mark had a shot at it, and they came close to ending in a paddock somewhere in Northamptonshire.

    1. I won’t bash, but I’ll disagree vehemently. Horner himself said today was all about getting maximum points for Vettel.

      1. No, he said it was about getting the maximum number of points for the team. Given the circumstances, i.e. Vettel’s jack problem, KERS issue etc. I believe it was the right call. If RBR suddenly find themselves on the back foot, and they lost 33 points as a result of the 2 drivers colliding, they would really regret it. Team orders are back, people may not like it but F1 would just be even more controversial without it.

    2. But they said that Vettel had no KERS, so Webber should have been able to take him, he was almost there and then the radio message came to “Maintain the gap…”

      1. Looked like he was using up KERS according to the onscreen graphic on the last lap…

        1. Yeah I saw that being used by Vettel in defence from Webber too. Unless the graphic was lying- is that what Horner’s saying?

          I was getting a bit sick of red Bull always winning and having a massive lead, but I didn’t care too much as long as the competition between the drivers was fair. But now, seeing a driver over 3 wins behind being told not to go for a position is far too refelctive of the ridiculous team orders issued by ferrari years ago which lead to the banning of team orders in the first place.

          1. Perhaps an over-reaction (never post drunk) as ferrari made drivers give places away rather than just not overtake, but it is still incredibly disapointing seeing a driver prevented from attempting a pass on a much slower driver. And after all the talk from Red Bull about driver equality, it strikes of inconsistency if not hypocrisy.

      2. I do wish they’d say something more like ‘calm down guys, don’t take each other out!’ than something as patronising and transparent as ‘maintain the gap’ ;) It actually results in worse press and cringy post race interviews with team bosses when they code stuff like that. Just be open with it I say!

        1. Agreed, especially since its now LEGAL!

      3. And how many times has Webber had no KERS this season? Too many not to take advantage when he has it and his rival doesn’t.

        If they were going to issue a team order it should have been to let Webber go if Vettel’s car was crippled, because Webber would have been able to get further up the road and therefore be better placed to take advantage if Alonso suffered a problem in the closing laps.

        Teams should be concerned with team points, not an individual drivers points.

      4. Did anyone see an onboard with graphics for Webbers car? I suspect he had no KERS at the start, hence why Vettel was able to monster him off the line.

        I seem to recall plenty of other races this season when Webber has had KERS trouble as well.

        I do not see how anyone can say they are being treated equally.

    3. I absolutely agree. Vettel has a massive lead in the championship and Webber hasn’t exactly been competitive relative to Seb all season, so why risk an incident?

      1. Dan, I agree with you iamS8 100%, what angers me is the Redbull line at the beginning of the year where they said they would ‘NEVER’ use team orders, and the stupid smirk on Helmut Markos face last year when he was bashing Ferrari for doing the same thing, and the stupid Christmas card they sent out last year. Basically, it’s the hypocrisy of the whole thing that annoys me the most.

        1. I agree! It is very hypocritical from Red Bull! Last year they were outraged by what Ferrari did and said up to the last race they would never use team orders. And now, as if nothing had happened, they use them blatantly!!! I think it was the right thing to do, though: I kept thinking “oh, hell, they are going to crash!!!”

        2. Agree with Cacarella. What really gets to me is Red Bull’s hypocrisy. When Ferrari used team orders last year they definitely got bashed for it, and no one had a more condescending tone towards Ferrari’s actions than the ‘holier than thou Mr.Horner’. Mr.Horner obviously is the brand philosophy enforcer of Red Bull in F1, where the ‘right’ thing to do in sport is to let your drivers race it out. That is why Webber and Vettel were allowed to race all the way to the end of the season last year. Instead of the team playing it safe, and securing the title for the driver who was ahead on points, they decided to do the right thing and let their drivers race. I clearly remember Horner saying that if they were to lose the drivers championship in 2010, it would be ok, as they stuck to their philosophy of letting their drivers race.

          Now we come to the British Gp 2011, where Vettel has a comfortable lead in the WDC, and they are actually in a situation where their drivers should be racing. And what do we hear on the radio? Its Mr.Self Righteous Horner playing it safe, and telling his drivers not to race, because apparently the outcome of this race is more important than Webber’s championship chances of last year.

          Horner is without a doubt the biggest hypocrite in the paddock right now. I honestly wouldn’t care if Red Bull said that they were going to adopt team orders… but to sit on you high horse and preach your sporting values, and then just abandon those values to favour one driver in particular is just RED BS.

          1. Very nice point. Agree 100%. Helmut Marku was behind that idea for sure! Horner a hypocrite and big puppet.

          2. It’s true, RB had the right to play it safe, but they shouldn’t claim that they are any better than Ferrari wrt team orders.

            Their hypocrisy is simply a big let down to both their drivers. Webber for being told not to be able to race, Vettel for being made to look like he isn’t trusted not to collide with Mark.

          3. I see no conflict between Red Bull’s decision to let their drivers race each other in 2010, and their issuing of team orders in 2011.
            Last season they were willing to practically hand the title to Alonso in order to give Vettel his last chance at the title (and they were lucky Ferrari got it wrong in Abu Dhabi). What I’m saying is, Webber and Vettel were allowed to race each other as long as it was the former who was leading the championship.
            Red Bull have been consistent in their decisions, which favor Vettel; it’s his team, and has been so from day one.

      2. The point is Vettel has an enormous lead and is going to win the championship regardless barring a miracle, and for the sake of four points they prevented Webber having a decent go. I am fairly sure if Webber was ahead and Vettel was pressing there would have been no such instruction

        Alonso, Hamilton and Button have each won a race, but none of them have a quick enough car to put together a string of victories to take points and the championship away from Vettel, so why intervene. These are meant to be the best drivers in the world, so let them race.

        1. Except Webber did have a decent go, which is the point of this article.

          I am fairly sure if Webber was ahead and Vettel was pressing there would have been no such instruction

          Horner said he told Vettel not to pass in Turkey 2009, where Vettel closed on Webber late on.

          1. Perhaps I should have written ‘tried to prevent’ then. I don’t think he should have given the order today, or back in ’09 either if that did happen.

            I could understand if it were toward the back end of the season, or if Vettel’s lead was less big but it was unnecessary in my opinion

          2. I remember Horner said to Vettel “use your overtake button(possibly aggressive engine mapping not KERS)” when he was closing on Webber. I think you can confirm it from race edit in Am I wrong?

          3. If I am right, it’s almost same situation to 2009 Turkey when Webber was in economy setting.

          4. Sorry 2010 not 2009.

          5. I was indeed referring to 2009, not 2010.

          6. The Radio talk where the engineer says… “For a boost on the straight, use the over take button” from the F1 edit of Turkey 2010 wasn’t actually Vettel’s engineer…….. it was Mark’s.

            His Engineer told him to use it to help defend from Seb.

          7. Thanks Andy Carr

      3. If accidents were that likely when two drivers race cleanly nobody would ever try and overtake anyone. Not risking an accident is a paranoid argument.

    4. if that were the case then the order should have been to vettel to let mark past

      1. yeah right, a faux pass like that would have been popular.

        1. It probably would be popular, without the sarcasm. Anything pro-Webber would be like Christmas to some people on this site.

          1. It’s not just about liking Webber but surely at this part of the season it would be better for the team for Webber to keep scoring more points and start to think about getting him 2nd in the drivers championship.
            It also would have seemed a bit fairer given his great qualifying lap.

    5. Agreed, Webber had a couple of chances to overtake Vettel and couldn’t make it stick – so any more attempts that late in the race would have had to have been pretty kamikaze and it’s a fair decision to ask Mark to back off. I’ll say it again, F1 is a team sport – there’s a whole team of people trying to keep these two cars on the track, not just two people in the car going all or nothing against each other.

      It’s similar to the 2010 Turkey bust up between the Mclaren drivers – let them have at it for a while on the track, but the longer it goes on the more likely someone will get desperate and things go wrong.

    6. I agree too. Webber was faster but not enough to make it certain or even probable he’d pass. That raises the chances of a collision. Then there’s a difference between mid-race team orders and the last lap where one or both drivers could lose places spinning off and be unable to make them up.

      I’m not saying Webber should listen though. It’s one thing for a team to say what they think is best and try to persuade the driver, another for the driver to accept the order. It’s possible for both the team and the driver to be ‘right’ since at the end of the day they’re not fighting for the same thing.

    7. Horner must have a low opinion of his drivers if he doesn’t think they can overtake without colliding.

      iamsa8, didn’t you bash Ferrari for team orders last year?

      1. i wasn’t for the Ferrari team orders, but i didn’t bash them at all.. i kept very quiet actually.

        The difference is that the Ferrari orders were mid-race, and to move one driver ahead of the other.. it was blatant and unnecessary. The Team orders today were to stop 2 drivers crashing into each other.. it wasn’t about deciding which driver should win, it was about making sure both drivers finished

      2. Were you watching last season? Both the RB’s had a bit of history.

        1. i was more active last season than now.. i can’t figure out the argument you’re trying to put forward, but the incident today was completely different from Ferrari @ Hockenheim, and put in place to prevent a repeat of Turkey..

    8. DeadManWoking
      10th July 2011, 16:50

      I’ve been following F1 too long (early 60’s) to be bothered by team orders. Red Bull now lead the Constructors Championship by 110 points with 10 races (430 possible points) to go. If Webber and Vettel had taken each other out in the closing laps that lead would only be 71 points, a no brainer in my view.

    9. Mike the bike Schumacher (@mike-the-bike-schumacher)
      10th July 2011, 20:02

      Agree wit iamsa8. The only problem is that red bull have always given the impression that they don’t use team orders. It was foolish that they thought they could always be against team orders and never use them. Every great championship wining team has used them at one point or another, Ferrari, Mclaren, Williams…. Horner and red bull were right.

    10. It’s the same as Ferrari, there is a number one and number two driver. Why pretend that it’s something different. As soon as that order came in, it had an effect on Webber. There is no way he could have been 100% focused on overtaking Vettel.

    11. I agree. Creating a drama out of nothing.

    12. While I understand the motivation for asking Mark to maintain position I do think this sets an interesting precedent. If you don’t want them to crash into one another at what point in time do you see it fit to give this order. It is inevitable that they will be racing wheel to wheel at some point later in the season. With the diffuser rules going back to normal it is likely that we are set to see Red Bull return to dominance. Is it just the last couple of laps where an order like this goes out? Last 10 laps? Last 20 laps?

      The collision involving Webber and Vettel in Turkey last year is being brought up as motivation for the move. That crash happened on lap 39 of a 58 lap race. If the fear of a similar incident was the reason the team made the call, then we have to wonder if it is possible that Red Bull will make the same decision earlier in the race. Another question is whether the same call would be made if, like in Turkey, Webber is in the lead and Vettel is chasing. Call me a cynic but I really doubt that would be the case.

      1. Agreed Eric, and do not forget what lap Hamilton and Button collided in Canada -about lap 6, so pretty soon we will be back to processional races with no overtaking your team-mate allowed in case cars collide.

  4. So in the end Red Bull makes Webber look even better…

    I don’t like this… they talk about fair chances with the blown diffuser, the engine being worse than the Mercedes and Ferrari, all that stuff… and you are not fair within your team.

  5. I don’t remember that being said in the post race press conference? All I remember is that he was asked about it and Webber said something about how he was going to pass Vettel but “not quite”. I just asked everybody in the stream and nobody remembers Webber saying anything like that either…

    1. The driver’s conference always goes on much longer than what is shown.

      The way it works is there’s an official moderator who throws a bunch of softball questions at the top 3, we get the canned responses, and the TV feed cuts. Then the floor is opened up, the odd interesting question/response comes out, and you have to wait for the transcript to come out.

      As usual, the FIA’s way of organising things ensures maximum boredom and that anything important or interesting gets missed.

      1. If thats true then thats just really, well its a curse word, so I won’t say it, but you know…

      2. Following the initial questions, the drivers from non-English speaking nations get to make a statement in their own language which is the point they cut back to local coverage (except, possibly, in the driver’s local country). If they showed driver statements in German and Spanish on the BBC people would just complain.

    2. Me niether…

  6. Ordinarily I would have voted “yes”, but given RBRs self-spouted “philosophy” of “we let our drivers race” I find it fairly hypocritical. Also where were the team orders to “maintain the gap” in Turkey last year…

    1. There were none, coz they favour Vettel and wanted him to win. Just like Ferrari favour Alonso. Its just the way it is.

    2. That’s what annoys me the most. The fact that Horner stated at the start of the year there would be no team orders yet conveniently changes his mind half way through. I’m sure he knew all along there would be. It’s as if he only said it to keep people happy and to make the team look peachy. Maybe I’d feel different if he said “things may change if Sebastian or Mark become a lot more competitive than each other” for example, although I suppose he’d probably never admit that.

      Having said that, I do understand why Red Bull did what they did today, same as I understand what Ferrari did at Hockenheim, but it doesn’t mean I feel completely okay with it (not that my thoughts make any difference though).

  7. Paul Grainger
    10th July 2011, 15:28

    No. Webber could have passed. Webber being the professional that he is, figured it would be better to say he couldn’t get past and that the team orders didn’t affect the result, than saying that he backed out of a sure pass because the team told him to maintain position. Imagine the uproar (if there isn’t any already) if he said the latter…

    1. Exactly Paul, he made the point that he was in a position to use DRS and pass, but afterwards played it down. After all there aren’t a lot of winning rides going for next year.

  8. there’s no such thing as bad publicity they say…. i might have drank my last redbull+vodka though.

    1. I think that will be more for the benefit of your body than the detriment of redbull. They don’t care if someone puts down the can your body will thank you with the ammount of junk that’s in it though. :P

    2. +1. One of my favourite drinks is genuinely going to get a second thought on Friday/Saturday night.

      1. you actually drink the stuff ??

        1. Yeah.. it is quite a good vodka mixer, and it does keep you up for a long night after a long day of work.

  9. I’m going to get bashed for this!

    I think the Team Orders were the correct thing to do. The order wasn’t about Vettel and Webber, it was about them taking each other out (which would have been disastrous). Mark had a shot at it, and they came close to ending in a paddock somewhere in Northamptonshire.

    I agree. If you were in Christian Horner’s position, with both your drivers having past troubles overtaking each other (Turkey 2010 being the best example) and being on an unpredictable track like today’s, you’d want to avoid them passing each other like the plague.

    1. Fine, but don’t claim the team’s philosophy is “we let our drivers race” after that.

      He’s always saying that but not NOW.

      1. Agree entirely with no.65.

        1. Mr. Horner is hypocrite and a puppet of Mr Helmut

      2. I fully agree with that Fer no.65

      3. Fully agree with both. But it’s a little sad to see that the Red Bull ‘sportsmanship’ bastion fell (i.e. ‘we let our drivers race, we don’t use team orders’, blah blah). If there really was one which I doubt.

      4. Oh, I agree, they can’t claim that philosophy anymore, but I have to stick by my point that it was a safer bet to hold him back than risk a crash so close to the end.

  10. Year ago Horner said a lot of ********* about how drivers are treated equally. Now it’s confirmed…

    1. Just like when Ferrari used team orders.

      I’d hate to have to explain this to the F1 bigwigs, but Team orders are not popular.

      1. Laranja Mecanica
        10th July 2011, 16:07

        But Ferrari didn’t say they would never use TO. what RBR have done today is perfectly legal, even reasonable, but for the record they are a bunch of hypocritic liars forever.

        1. What I said was they are never popular, which in both cases, the vast majority has shown to be against it.

          I wasn’t commenting one which was worse. In which case, I actually agree with you.

    2. They deserve to be blamed because they blame when Ferrari used team order although it’s not notorious one as Ferrari did.

      1. They’re also completely different situations. Massa was asked to pull over. Webber was asked not to challenge.

        1. still It’s team order and surely Horner didn’t allowed them to race each other as he said.

          1. Well he maybe did for 95% of the race.

            Anyhow the good thing for the season is Webber’s closing the gap. And he’ll need to get more aggressive and stir things up with Vettel again to make a real challenge, hopefully this is a start. For all the complaints about RBR, I don’t expect them to contain and tame Webber as Ferrari did Massa if Webber starts to pose a real threat and has a realistic chance. Has to be now. He should have maintained the lead at the start though. But Vettel’s start was superb.

          2. He is? He just lost more points at this race going into the second half of the season.

        2. No, it’s the same. Bo9th where team orders designed to prevent one of their cars from challenging the other. It is still distasteful.

          1. No, they’re different. Vettel’s far enough ahead for the potential point loss to Webber not to be a big issue for Red Bull. Their issue was clearly a collision happening like last year. Alonso passing Massa was another issue entirely, pre-coded and agreed before the race, and put into action when Alonso couldn’t get past Massa on the track. It damaged the race as a sporting event.

            As a McLaren/Ham fan I’d have loved to see them both collide and Lewis take 2nd. But I’d expect McLaren to issue a similar ‘warning’, maybe a bit more subtly. But also I’d want Hamilton to ignore it! (presuming he was chasing Button). I don’t see any point in making out ‘team orders’ are always the same when they have different motives, that’s all.

          2. Or to put it this way. Red Bull or McLaren issue an order basically saying hold position, Webber or Hamilton (say) ignore it and manage to get past cleanly. The teams might grumble with the driver that he risked a collision, but they’d accept the result. But Massa ignoring Ferrari would have been a huge issue, probably the end of his contract.

            That’s the difference.

          3. Okay scrub what I said. That was based on the initial report that RBR warned Webber on the last lap. Having learnt they were warning him over the previous laps, I’ve changed my mind. Bad Red Bull.

            They’re over-protecting Vettel and doing him no favours.

        3. They’re also completely different situations

          The different situation is that Redbull have always claimed to let their drivers race on track, even (supposedly) willing to risk losing the championship last year so they could maintain the ‘fairness’ between drivers.

          Ferrari has always claimed that the TEAM comes first and that they were willing to make these kinds of calls if necessary.

    3. As usual, I think this is another clear instance of the people who should run the team (Horner) being kicked around by the bighead who thinks he does run the team (Marko). Just like the previous times Red Bull have been made to look like idiots, it has not been on Horner’s watch. I think he’s got a very sure touch, and his comment to Ted Kravitz “Not my orders, the team’s orders” was very telling.

      And yet again, Marko doesn’t realise that
      a) Vettel doesn’t need this sort of interference to protect his championship;
      b) Webber is never, ever going to obey a team order;
      c) Marko thinks we’re all as dumb as sheep.

      “The team needed maximum points” is the same cheap, lazy, stupid argument Ferrari used to give one driver a preferred result. Let’s be clear about this: If your team are P2 & P3, and swap positions, then the team’s points don’t change one iota. The only thing that changes is the driver’s points. And in this case, all that they attempted to do was to maintain one driver’s gap over their other driver. The team don’t benefit at all.

      1. What’s also telling is that both Vettel and Webber, in their comments after the race, seem to think that the team order wasn’t necessary at all.

        Vettel thinks the whole thing is amusing – in a way, he’s right, Webber ignored the team order but still couldn’t get past – all it proves in a real sense is that Vettel still had the goods on his teammate. Webber is a big enough man to admit when he’s beaten fair and square. Vettel is grounded enough to know that he’s good enough to win without needing someone to interfere on his behalf (or at least, he should be, and appears to be).

        Yes somebody in Red Bull still seems to think it’s necessary to impose an invisible “1-2” arrangement on its drivers. Yes there’s an argument that following Turkey, the drivers need to be kept in check. I think it’s reasonably obvious that both drivers have sorted that out between themselves, and have managed to race clearly, fairly and sensibly since then. The orders were ignored and “the team” got the result they wanted.

        1. I agree with Hairs 100%. You make some very good points.

          To me, it seems Horner doesn’t trust Vettel in wheel-to-wheel combat with his team-mate, and Mark paid the price for that today. Even if Mark couldn’t get past, they still told him not to race. Very disappointing stuff. To me it seems so strange that Horner was convinced they were going to have an accident should they be left to race. They are the drivers – so it’s up to them to keep it together. If they can’t, the driver who caused it can be slated. But I can’t help but feel Red Bull have done themselves perhaps more harm than good.

          The negative comments made about them reflect badly on a team that prides itself on not employing team orders. Sebastian has an enormous lead in the drivers’ championship, so if they’re not going to be allowed to race when they have not a huge amount to lose, they’ll never be allowed to.

          I know Helmut Marko has a lot to do with Horner’s decisions, but I still wouldn’t trust Christian as far as I could kick him – especially after the nonsense he delivered on the forum.

          1. Damon, you got that smack on to what ive been thinking, that Horner or the RBR management dont trust or have enough faith in either of, or both their drivers in a wheel-to-wheel battle.

      2. If your team are P2 & P3, and swap positions, then the team’s points don’t change one iota.

        The team’s points do, however, suffer a bit if its drivers crash into one another while contesting second place.

        1. To prevent them from crashing, Red Bull could equally have told Sebastian: “Mark is faster than you…”

          1. Sidney Vianna
            11th July 2011, 19:32

            AdrianMorse, you are correct, but the whole sentence would have been: Mark is faster than you, do you understand? :))

            Yes, Horner is afraid of Seb’s stability (also figuratively) on wheel to wheel combat. Do you guys remember Spa 2010 when Seb managed to strike Button’s sidepod with his nose?

            The story here is obviously the fact that Webber is out of RB in 2012. I doubt he will be driving for SF next year as some of you have insinuated. I think he will be out of F1 altogether. His best chance at a championship was 2010 and he wasn’t able to pull it.

            Oh well, Massa too was champion for a few seconds in 2008, until Lewis crossed the line in interlagos….

    4. They are also getting blasted in the comments of their latest status update.

      Three extra points for Vettel are not worth this PR mess.

      1. In Facebook, I mean.

    5. And rightly so after maintaining they would not use TO as they do not fit with the company ethos!

      1. @Hairs

        Agree with your comments, but regarding Vettel’s insistence that team orders weren’t necessary, he’s bound to say that in public.

        No driver will admit, in public, that they wanted team orders to be made in their favour.

        1. “I know Helmut Marko has a lot to do with Horner’s decisions, but I still wouldn’t trust Christian as far as I could kick him – especially after the nonsense he delivered on the forum.”

          But is he forced to talk nonsense as a result of decisions he can’t really defend, because he does not actually have any conviction in those decisions?

  11. All the controversy of Turkey last year, the front wing saga, and now this, and Webber still wants to stick with this team? Maybe Red Bull will slot in the rookie next year now as they know he won’t argue with team orders.

    1. “he won’t argue with team orders.”

      Wouldn’t be too sure about that!!

  12. Good to hear Webber ignored. I don’t think battle between both would make anything wrong. gap to Hamilton is enough so none of both would not lose their position to other team. I want to see Webber has ball to do same thing like Hamilton.(but I don’t like what he did to Massa although there’s no need for penalty.)

    1. 1) Is it team order?
      Of course!! even Horner said it’s an order.

      2) Is it reasonable?
      Fair. but I don’t think it would hurt team’s point hunting.

      3) Is it hypocritical?
      Yes. Hornor didn’t what he said.

      There’s no room for whether it’s legal or illegal because team order is now permitted. but It’s Red Bull who always said they won’t use team order. No penalty or something but deserve to be blamed.

  13. There would have been no incident if they had said “Marks quicker, let him passed, it won’t affect your lead, but will help Mark stay in front of Alonso in the wdc”. That’s looking after the team.

    1. Hear hear. Well put.

    2. Or even, “The points are important to the team, you can fight, but don’t take each other out.”

    3. I’m a Webber fan and completely disagree with the team orders, however if the team had have ordered Vettel to let Mark through I still would have been disappointed. Team orders are team orders, regardless of who the winner and loser of the situation is.

      If Red Bull were so concerned about protecting their points they should have let both Mark and Vettel race but told them not to do anything stupid.

      It would have saved them all this controversy.

      1. Now that is a good comment. It would be every bit as bad if they were swapped around.

    4. Hear hear. Exactly the point and well said.

      I’m gonn struggle even watching F1 for the rest of the year now, because what happens next time my boy mark wants to try and overtake vettel? same story?

      Not really Red Bull “Racing” is it…

  14. Risking an incident? Surely this is not showing respect to neither VET nor WEB to trust them to fairly race each other as drivers? After all, Horner maintains they’re free to race each other. Yes, always until VET is threatened by WEB…

    1. True. If racing each other is too much of a risk, then racing another team’s driver would, by extrapolation, be an unacceptably great risk. In that case, don’t bother with racing at all.

      1. “True. If racing each other is too much of a risk, then racing another team’s driver would, by extrapolation, be an unacceptably great risk. In that case, don’t bother with racing at all.”

        Summed up nicely.

      2. A collision involving both cars of the same team is likely to wipe out both car’s possibility of scoring.

        A collision involving two cars of different teams is likely to wipe out one car of that team’s possibility of scoring.

        So the risk to a team greater if their drivers are racing each other.

        1. Not to say I like TO, but I was just disproving the point about risk.

        2. Even when you’re not the best of pals, still it’s your team mate you can expect to behave the most reasonably during an overtaking attempt; it’s still him you can most trust to give you room etc.

          Or the fact of working for the same employer only figures when a team order is issued, but not when two extremely highly paid über-professional employees should intelligently work out a solution between themselves that does not endanger the employer’s interest? (That’s what doodie111 called “not showing respect” to VET and WEB)

    2. Exactly, this is one thing that really stands out to me. When we see Lewis and Jenson racing (even colliding) we always hear the team saying they will keep letting them race, they’re professionals, we trust them, etc etc etc. Seems very disrespectful and untrusting to say “they would have both ended in the fence”.

      Another thing that stands out from todays race for me was the lack of wheel to wheel racing ability of both RB drivers. First Vettel fails to get past Lewis, despite having the faster car and Lewis saving fuel. Then Mark backs out on the way round Woodcote, where no doubt Lewis or Fernando would have stuck it out and taken the position.

      1. last year at hungaroring vettel had a car that was 1 second per lap faster and still couldnt make it past alonso.
        apart from barcelona this year we havent really seen him in trouble

        1. Nor could Webber pass Alonso until his strategy was changed to help him skip past in the pit stops. Hell, he lost to Alonso two weeks ago!

          Why are people so insistent on criticising Vettel for not being in trouble like Webber always is?

          1. Why go so far back david.. just look at this race. He couldn’t overtake Alonso for a whole lap while the Alonsos front wing was shattered and scraping all over the track..

  15. Keith.

    I’m surprised at your increasing lack of impartiality.

    1. I’ll express my opinion on anything I choose to. I have never claimed to be impartial.

      That said, I don’t know what you’re referring to in this article (as you haven’t said).

    2. I don’t get it StefK.

      Based on the situation that was visible for everyone on TV during the race and in the press conference and described mostly using direct quotes, Keith asked us to give our opinion by vote.

    3. I have reread the article and cannot see the impartiality you are referring to. Actually, I like this site because of its impartiality; many other media outlets in my opinion are much less impartial than this site.

  16. Just do a quick search on Google ‘Horner – team orders’

    No one was more critical last year of the Fez than Horner. The guy is a smarmy hypocrite.

    1. Trenthamfolk (@)
      10th July 2011, 16:04

      In fairness, last year team orders were illegal, and the prancing Ponies deserved all the **** that was thrown at them. A disgrace to the sport. This year, it’s OK, and Horner is free to do what he wants in this regard. Don’t want team orders, lobby the FIA!

      1. Unfortunately, Ferrari DO want TO so you’d be wasting your effort lobbying the FIA

  17. I don’t agree with team orders at all but if I put myself in Horner’s shoes I can understand it (not saying they’re right just as I didn’t with Hockheinem). Vettel’s by far the best bet and Webber has been nowhere in comparison. From a team point of view I can understand Red Bull wanting to wrap the title up as quickly as possible however if Webber ignored him four times I don’t think it was handled at all well.

    1. I can agree with you on this, guess most if not all Team Principles would have done the same.
      That’s why I felt the ban on team orders was right, to prevent many of them from doing so.

    2. From a team point of view I can understand Red Bull wanting to wrap the title up as quickly as possible

      To be honest, I dont see exactly why they are in such a hurry to wrap up the title. It will take a miracle for Seb to lose the title after the gigantic lead he has built up, and I really doubt these 3 points he would have lost to Mark were going to be a game changer in any way.

      If Horner was such a good team principal, he should have kept in mind that by going back on his word, he is more likely to do harm to the Red Bull brand image, and destroy the spirit within the team.


    Horner speaking on Alonso/Massa last year

    “Martin Brundle said that if he were Stefan he would have done the same thing. In that position would you have done the same thing”
    Horner: No, we let our drivers race.

    Horner: It’s wrong, it’s wrong for the sport. The drivers should have been allowed to race.

    Slightly different circumstances, team orders not allowed at the time (by the letter), and ordered to let overtake rather than not to overtake. However I can’t help thinking that his comments then are still valid in this circumstance, although Horner:

    “Obviously… disagreed with that.”

    1. Worst thing is the circumstances for Ferrari made sense from a championship battle point of view, when now it was just as much (not at all) needed as it was in 2002 at Ferrari!

      1. +29


        This was not a dire situation, and I do not know how Horner can justify the importance of this team order. At Hockenheim, Fernando had the slimmest of chances to challenge for the title and Ferrari decided to use team orders to help the cause.

  19. Brilliant race and thank god he ignored the orders. Was at the race and it was a great finish. F1 is all about the fans.

  20. I think Horner made a wise decision. Having both the drivers off the track on the final lap would be disastrous.

    Besides, since Webber chose to ignore the transmission, it shows that he wasn’t able to pass Vettel on that lap anyway. Horner would have let Webber try to pass until they were through the final DRS activation, at which point he just needed to remind Webber not to consider a “Hail Mary Pass.”

    After the DRS zone, there was only really a couple really risky spots for an overtake. The old start/finish only had one dry line, they were in equal equipment on the Hangar Straight, so he couldn’t out-drag him. Overtaking into Stowe, or into Vale is risky (as evidenced by the contact between Hamilton/Massa).

    It was a sound, pragmatic decision, that’s not even illegal.

  21. Typical Webber, always pushing until the end. Vettel had given up and was going slow. Webber was still at it even until the last lap. That’s why Williams signed him in 2005. Great racer.

    1. Vettel had given up and was going slow.

      Webber couldn’t pass a driver doing that yet is a:

      Great racer.

  22. That gave me a bit of trouble to answer. If there had been a “divided on that” rather than “no opinion” I might have gone for that.

    On the one hand, what Eddie Jordan said about not risking a crash in the last lap, and making sure the points were in, would make it the right decision for any team does have merit, even if it is a spoiler for the race itself.

    Last year we had that discussion, more or less, with Ferrari. And Ferrari did a lot worse, making sure the slower driver behind got let past halfway through the race. Clearly, in F1 we have to conclude that at least since this year, the team has to have the right to tell its drivers to stay put to safeguard their points.

    On the other hand, this isn’t just any team, this is a team that has claimed several times that they wouldn’t want to win the way Ferrari did last year, and wanted their drivers to battle.

    Their claim was a bit curious given the earlier events that year between the two drivers/cars they had, so they confirmed it again and again. Ever since those events, Horner has had a big part of some post-race talk directed to very insincere explanations of why. Why it was perfectly fair, and moreover only done for the best of the team, could have been either of the two drivers it happened to, but sorry for Webber it was him this time. And again this time. None of those reasons were there for Webber, and they won’t ever be there.

    Sure, Vettel is doing a lot better than Webber so far this year, and they anyway like him better in the Red Bull management, so I can see why they are fully behind him. But that’s not what they claim, and thus it is wrong and dishonest for this team to act in this way.

    Had McLaren done this, it would equally have been weird and disappointing, although there they aren’t so clearly for or against a driver, so I wouldn’t know for which one they would decide.

    Ferrari, well, it would be a bit sad, but no one would expect otherwise, and I would praise Massa for having a go and showing Alonso he can still do something, but I can’t see it happening now.

    Any other team? Well, with Mercedes it wouldn’t work I would think, same for the Renault drivers. Other teams would probably do it, as is their right.

    1. So, to give a summary: in principle a team would do the smart thing this way, but for a team that supposedly wanted their drivers to fight fairly, it is the wrong thing to do.

      And so it is for Red Bull: despite appearances, they keep saying they back both drivers equally, and want them to fight. No, they should not have done this.

    2. Very well-written post and very reasonable. Like you said, I can understand the rationale behind issuing such a team order. But for Red Bull to have their holier-than-thou attitude towards sportsmanship and then giving out this team order… that’s just extremely hypocritical.

      Plus, if it is true that Webber ignored it, that just further shows how unnecessary it was. Vettel was more than capable of defending his position without incident without any external help.

      1. Pink Pirelli
        10th July 2011, 22:27

        I think Webber ignored it until the last lap, and RBR robbed us of a great finish. As always with RBR, both drivers are equal, but one more equal than the other (apologies to Orwell there).

  23. Disgusting display by Horner & co at Red Bull. Last year they were all over Ferrari for their team orders saying they let their drivers race. Well obviously that isn’t the case and I’m expecting the F1 to penalise them for it just as they penalised Ferrari last year. Completely appalling hopocritical team orders. What’s the point in even watching when you just know that one driver can’t even race against another?? It just defeats the whole point of the sport in the first place! Explain it however you want Horner but we all heard the call “maintain the Gap” means “Don’t pass” which is blatent and disgusting team orders at their worst. You just have to feel for Mark who just keeps rolling with the punches over and over again while the golden haired boy Seb gets whatever he wants. The terms pathetic, disgusting, ashamed, disrespectful, hipocritical and appaling all come to mind when thinking about what happened in what was a great race up to that point. F1 needs to stamp team orders out and make a good example of it trhis time or they are just goign to keep losing fans.

    1. the FIA has only just allowed team orders to be brought back and be legal. Many fans (not me though) was in favour of Team orders.

    2. Team orders are now allowed this season, there will be no penalty for Red Bull merely a debate between fans as to whether it was the right thing to do.

      1. “Team orders are now allowed this season, there will be no penalty for Red Bull merely a debate between fans as to whether it was the right thing to do.”

        …And a slightly tarnished reputation for Red Bull.

  24. for Re Bull it was the best call, but for us it wasnt :(

    1. Best call for Red Bull would surely have been for Webber and Vettel to swap positions. Vettel’s lead is already pretty unassailable, but Webber is not so secure in second place.

      Team orders telling Vettel to let Webber pass, because he had more pace, would have achieved exactly the same result for Red Bull without incident.

      1. But if redbull want seb to win the WDC then he nees to come first, an i think there safe putting all their eggs in one basket, and the team still would have got the same number of points in the weekend for the WCC, even if they let webber through, i doubt he would have been able to both cathc up to alonso and taken the lea, what they id was right for the team, as i said.

        not saying i think it was the right thing to do for us, (and for Horners “we let our drivers race” reputation )

        1. ^^sorry my “D” key is a bit dodgy^^

  25. So Horner on the BBC forum said if there wasnt team orders, it would have ended in the wall.

    So, thats how much faith in his drivers he has. Although the memory of Istanbul still there.

    1. But Webber was all over the back of him, and Horner said he had no KERS…!?!?!?

  26. wonder if Daniel Riccardo will get the call up a year early now…

  27. I voted no opinion, I support the right of teams to use team orders but felt that it was unnecessary today with Vettel having the title lead that he does. But its hypocritical of Red Bull after they strongly criticised team orders last season on principle but now suddenly they support them.

    1. I largely agree with you in this case, but decided on NO due to the hypocrisy (see that large, maybe too long, post above). Maybe it helped me make that decision that I was against team orders being allowed :)

    2. I agree with you. I can see why they did it but I think it was pointless (or had very little point-3 to be precise :P ) and all it will achieve is upsetting one driver and thousands of fans.

      You’re right about them seemingly being hypocrites too and I think that’s the worst part of it.

      1. Pink Pirelli
        10th July 2011, 22:30

        +1. The hypocrisy is the hardest thing to swallow, almost as hard as swallowing a moutful of that poison in can Red Bull market as a drink.

  28. TheVillainF1
    10th July 2011, 16:10

    what I find most striking is Horner seems to claim it could have only ended up in the wall. If both drove sensibly while battling it could have very well been a clean pass. Most telling in all this drama is that Horner simply has no confidence at all in his driver’s racecraft.

    1. Yes, I think we all know Horner’s explantion was disingenuous. The fact is Webber attempted overtakes several times and did so with due caution for the risks, which saw him back off and wait until the next opportunity.

      There would not have been a collision and frankly I don’t think Webber is the one Red Bull should be concerned about when it comes to drivers managing to overtake safely.

      Having said that I don’t think it was Horner’s own decision, a view he expressed on the pit wall. My suspicions lie elsewhere and with Helmut Marko in particular. It seems to be a case of the tail wagging the dog. Seriously though, what does Marko bring to the team?

      1. The “Bull” part of their name. Now who brings the “Red”?

  29. inappropriate title :(

    1. No it’s not, it’s completely accurate. Why do you think it’s “inappropriate”?

      1. i’m webber fan so its inappropriate
        team orders prevent webber 2nd place
        would be good :)

        1. The Last Pope
          10th July 2011, 17:43

          I guess Keith better adjust the Championship table page too and put Webber ahead of Vettel in points so its not inappropriate for you. :rolleyes:

          1. Sarcasm senses not so tingly?

  30. im glad Mark ignored that order because it is team orders. they would not of crashed with Vettel’s KERS issues, so he would be too slow to make contact. i wished Mark had passed Seb.

    1. I don’t think Vettel had KERS issues during the battle with Webber. Horner was referring to an earlier point in the race, in a roundabout way, to try to justify team orders.

  31. I truly, honestly can’t understand those who support that nonsense that we all witnessed today. Those ridiculous team orders are *killing* the credibility of F1. Maybe those orders make sense from the bussines or contractual point of view. But I don’t want to spend an hour and a half in front of the TV while my children playing football outside, just to hear a moronic order like “maintain the gap”.
    Maybe what happened today was good for RedBull and their bussiness. For racing, it was a disaster.

  32. I loathe team orders and am very glad that Webber ignored these ones. However, if I remember correctly from many quotes last season, one person who *doesn’t* have a problem with team orders, at least in theory, is…Mark Webber. I’m looking forward to reading many quotes from him to this effect in coming days!

    1. So what you are saying is that the driver who was leading the championship last year and was told that there will be no team orders in this team has to take team orders laying down this year because he is behind. Oh please

  33. Well it was the most sensible choice from their perspective. Sebastian had KERS issues and he was slower than Mark, but Webber couldn’t catch up with Alonso, so it wasn’t necessary to swap places.
    Besides it was risky, it’s true that Red Bull’s drivers have learnt a lot from Turkey 2010 but you never know, especially beacause they are not best friends and a crash was not impossible between the two. We also have to consider that team orders are now legal.
    Obviously Horner last year claimed that Red Bull was fair to their drivers, and that they would have never done something like Hockenheim 2010. And in fact they didn’t, it was a different situation.

    I mean, I don’t understand all this talk, in my opinion it was a normal thing that everyone would have done.

  34. I am so disillusioned that I’ve just about given up on F1. I’ve certainly given up on Red Bull. After the Silverstone race, including the blown diffuser fiasco, but more importantly the whole Team Orders issue of the Red Bull team during the final stages of the 2011 race I am now determined not to support the Red Bull team and to never buy a Red Bull product again. I know my decision will not make anyl difference to Red Bull, but it is my minisccule protest to what I think was discraceful behaviour by the Team manager Christian Horner in implementing Team Orders, telling Mark Webber to “maintain the gap”. I’ve had enough.

    1. No fair play to you, I completely agree, it was unfair, and if they really genuinely thought they would stack it, then it shows complete distrust of them as F1 drivers.

  35. I am so disillusioned that I’ve just about given up on F1. I’ve certainly given up on Red Bull. After the Silverstone race, including the blown diffuser fiasco, but more importantly the whole Team Orders issue of the Red Bull team during the final stages of the 2011 race I am now determined not to support the Red Bull team and to never buy a Red Bull product again. I know my decision will not make any difference to Red Bull, but it is my minisccule protest to what I think was discraceful behaviour by the Team manager Christian Horner in implementing Team Orders, telling Mark Webber to “maintain the gap”. I’ve had enough.

  36. Mark, Sebastian is Faster than you.

  37. So what will RedBull do with Mark. Replace him?

    1. And knowing that Vettel is golden balls and will get star treatment, who would really want to go there. Apart from a few of the new drivers who it would help propel a bit, and maybe get them in another top team.

      1. The difficulty Webber has is getting another drive that will match Red Bull’s superiority. Better second in a winning team than first in a losing one as they say.

        I think if any team is holier than thou at the moment, it has to be McLaren. Fair play to them for really allowing their drivers to race on track and it seems to have had a positive effect on Hamilton and Button’s relationship within the team.

  38. if he had won this race, Webber could’ve said “not bad for a #2 driver”, again!

    1. Overtaking Vettel would be one thing, and winning the race entirely another one. By then FA had a 20″ gap already.

  39. Absolutely shocking really, I am fed up with people saying about Ferrari favouring Alonso blah blah blah….when in reality any half sharp person can see that infact Ferrari DONT NEED to favour Alonso as he is head and shoulders above Massa. At Mclaren and Red Bull on the other hand the drivers are much much closer so the teams tend to REALLY favour one driver over the other…this has clearly happened today with C Horner favouring Vettel over Webber. You become a racing driver to overtake and win races, not to play second fiddle to your team mate as Kovalainen did for years at Mclaren and Barrichello at Ferrari…..

    1. But can you really say that they are favouring either Button or Hamilton at the moment? They are being left to get on with it.

    2. Kovalainen – years at Mclaren? I recall it was only two year and Hamilton comfortably had his number then. I agree though about your take on Alonso vs Massa.

    3. At Mclaren and Red Bull on the other hand the drivers are much much closer so the teams tend to REALLY favour one driver over the other…this has clearly happened today with C Horner favouring Vettel over Webber.

      I agree that Alonso is head and shoulders above Massa, but I certainly wouldn’t say Webber/Vettel is as close as Button/Hamilton. Vettel has been the better driver since 2009, and as a result, gets favourable treatment, like Alonso.

  40. Webber, get yourself a drive with a decent team!!!
    PS— you would have easily had Vettel if the team had let the both of you race. Silly decision really what does the 3 extra points mean to Vettel…more than what the second place trophy would have mean to Webber?
    One word sums it all up—-robbed!
    Perhaps thats why Vettel has won all these races this year..perhaps he has been favoured all aong..

    1. Come on, do not rain on Vettel’s success this year. Vettel had a poor race today. Webber had poor races in Australia, Malaysia, Spain, Monaco, Valencia. That’s why Vettel is 6-0 up in race wins, and was 8-0 up in finishes ahead before today.

  41. People have been comparing Red Bull’s team orders to the one Ferrari had last year, but I think it is different and Red Bull had a reason to do what they did.

    When Ferrari did it last year, it was to secure more points for Alonso so that he had a better chance of winning the championship. However, Red Bull did it today to prevent a crash of both their drivers which would mean no points for both of them and the team. They didn’t do it because they wanted Vettel to get more points. I am sure if today the situation was reversed, if Vettel was the one chasing Webber down, Red Bull would have told Vettel to do the same thing.

    Red Bull just wanted to prevent a crash of both of their drivers. Once bitten, twice shy. They remember what happened in Turkey last year, and so under race conditions, looking at how things were like, they had to make a decision to ensure maximum points for the TEAM. They didn’t do it to ensure maximum points for Vettel.

    That’s just what I feel. :)

    But perhaps a more tactical way Red Bull should have done it was to tell Vettel and Webber that they are free to race, but to ensure that there won’t be any crashes. Anyhow, I don’t think peoeple should be criticising Vettel if they are displeased with the team orders, because the issue isn’t really with Vettel, but the team.

    1. When Ferrari did it last year, it was to secure more points for Alonso so that he had a better chance of winning the championship. However, Red Bull did it today to prevent a crash of both their drivers which would mean no points for both of them and the team.

      My only reaction to this paragraph is: OMG!!!

      1. Care to explain why?

        1. bib, if that view is correct (we are NOT going to let our driver race, because this is a race and they could crash), then F1 is *very* dead.

    2. People are dissapointed after all the strong words last year after Germany. I clearly remember Mr Horner saying they always let their drivers race. What happened to that?

    3. If they wanted to avoid a crash they should have ordered seb to let webber through. I completely diagree with your point.

      1. Pink Pirelli
        10th July 2011, 22:35

        And it’s not Webber you need to worry about when making a pass. Webber could have done so cleanly, as long as the wunderkid was told not to lose his head.

        1. for sure Webber could have not done so cleanly too, judging from “not bad for a No.2 driver” crashes or you so call lose head in couple of races.

  42. Trenthamfolk (@)
    10th July 2011, 17:00

    Hmmm… ever wonder why some people die rich and lonely? It’s because they put success in front of everything, including their friends! RB are in danger of wandering into the mire of Ferrari territory… and that’s a whole pile of pride, horses heads and prancing ego’s. Shame.

  43. To me Red Bull are the biggest hipocrits walking wasn’t they the team saying Ferrari were unsporting and that Ferrari took the spectacle away from the fans in Hockheim 2010 as well as saying much more about Red Bull being a sporting team with the equality to race but where was the equality today Red Bull ! Would Red Bull of stopped Vettel overtaking Mark ? (NO !) + somebody said Mark didn’t get the job done anyway well yes probably because Horner etc.. was too busy putting him off on purpous over the radio as the order was given to Mark more times than we heard so the ploy to put him off worked ! I used to like Red Bull for there equality + honesty before now but they have clearly just done what they said they would never do ! so why call the kettle black bunch of hipocrits !
    Ps. I’m British but Hamilton no penalty for same as Schumi but if the race was in Germany I firmly believe the stewards woulda penalised both drivers so to be fair to all Fernando deserved the win today + it was nice to see the British fans applaud him even if we wanted our drivers to win so that was nice to see, even if the race was overshadowed by many other things but Silverstone delivered a good race for once + nice to see Silverstone cemented onto the F1 calendar for a further while yet !

  44. Oh yeah was’nt it Red Bull who sent Ferrari a xmas card sying Santa is faster than you ! Maybe Ferrari can now send one back saying Webber is cemented behind you !

  45. StandNThrow
    10th July 2011, 17:33

    Just be fair.

    Let’s look at German GP back in 2009 where Massa was asked to let Alonso pass.

    IIRC, Alonso asked the team to ask Massa to let him pass.

    However, this wasn’t the case here in Silverstone.

    Webber was asked by the cockpit not to pass Vettel to prevent suicidal move to the team. I did not hear Vettel asking the cockpit to tell Webber not to pass him. I think this is still a fair fight that Vettel wants to put up for us who are watching Silverstone here. Fair or not? You decide. That just my 2 cents.

    1. We don’t hear all the radio feed.

      Vettel also admitted his tyres were degrading, so it’s reasonable to assume that all this was discussed with the team. Asking Webber to “maintain a gap” was merely taking the pressure off Vettel (and his tyres). Both drivers were fighting each other and were pretty isolated from positions 1 and 4, so I would assume that Webber was the only threat that Vettel was concerned about at that time.

    2. The Last Pope
      10th July 2011, 17:53

      Marko does Vettel’s talking for him.

    3. The fact we do not get played all radio communications makes your argument worth even less than those 2 cents.

      And does it really matter, anyhow? This is a team that was the loudest one in critisizing Ferrari last year, stating complete equality between their drivers. And it was not as if Vettel needed those few points that badly.

    4. Vettel clearly felt the message to be unnecessary, so indeed Vettel cannot receive any hate or blame for Webber being told to hold station.

  46. The thing that surprised me most was Horner saying that if they raced they would of ended up in the wall, thats why it stopped him.

    Does he not have trust in the drivers talent and judgement? Or there ability to be races and make overtaking manoeuvres that stick?

    The call was made on a presumption that they would bin it. That or its just a very poor excuse which was cobbled together when they realised the team radio was played and they would get called on it.

  47. My favourite TEAM is Red Bull. Fact is I don’t really like Vettel, and I think that Mark is only an average driver. That being said, I still wanna see Mark win some races this year, and I would like to see him finish ahead of Vettel, but today I was a nervous wreck when I saw the last few laps.
    I know Mark really wanted to pass, and yes he tried to ignore the team orders. He could have kept pushing to line and tried to pass, but in the end, he decided to just take the points. Had he dnf’d and Vettel managed to finish… how would that have helped him? At least this way he keeps the points and for all we know, in the next race he may win and Vettel dnf’s and there you go.. those 3rd place points helped him.
    He made the right choice. The Team made the right choice.
    But when it comes right down to it ever team has three groups that want championships.. the drivers, and the constructor’s. The Constructors don’t care where the drivers finish in the standings, they just want the constructors title.

  48. good call by RB, why risk Seb understeering into Mark or contact was Webber lines him up at Stowe for 0 extra points. Of course Webber and his fans will cry foul and in webbers position i wouldn’t have been best pleased but it was the right call for me

    1. StandNThrow
      10th July 2011, 18:09

      I agree. It was a right call. No team would want to see both drivers ended up the dust and bagging 0 points at the end of a hard day.

    2. It’s a bad call because it goes back on their position towards Ferrari last year, regardless of any points befenfit for the team.

      If you’re going to do it then don’t criticise others… that’s hypocrisy.

  49. Hmmm, who once said that RBR didn’t used team orders?
    Christian Horner? :)

  50. why does everybody assume that the pair would have collided??

    1. Guidof1, I asked myself the same question. I’ve been reading the same nonsense over and over and over… suddenly, it became a fact: “yeah, we need to swallow thar order or they would crash…”
      Jeezees, if RBR think their drivers would collide, fire them both and bring someone else…

  51. So much for Horner’s promise of no team orders. With Vettel so far in front, he should be looking to ensure Mark finishes second in the Driver’s Championship.

    Therefore if there was to be any orders it should have been “Mark is quicker than you, let him through.”

  52. So they were 2-3 and Webber was obviously faster. To swap them and allow Webber the extra 3 points to improve his position, would have no effect on the ‘team’ result and wouldnt effect Vettels championship lead. Vettel is almost certainly going to take the WDC given his form so to have him allow Webber past would not cause too many troubles. I find it incredibly insulting when Horner says ‘it was for the team’ as ther is no benefit to Vettel being ahead or Webber being ahead. When will Team bosses understand that we are not stupid, and we can see when they are trying to cover the fact that despite their insistance, there is a clear 1/2 driver hierarchy!

  53. If i was team boss i’d have it written in the contracts that after the final pit stop hold position! Unless the team manager says otherwise!

  54. 2 laps to go, tyres on their last legs, 2 drivers who have hit each other before, yes red bull were right, anyone who says they weren’t really doesn’t understand F1.

    1. Webber was outpacing Vettel during those final laps.

      The two have crashed before but why…

      It’s clear from the clip that Vettel completely misjudged how far ahead he needed to be before turning in.

      Vettel’s inexperience when it comes to overtaking, due to the fact that he’s usually out in front and doesn’t get much practice, means he’s not very good at overtaking.

      However, the same cannot be said for Webber and given the speed advantage that Webber had during the final stages of today’s race, it’s more than likely he would have gotten away cleanly after passing.

      The only distraction for Webber being the constant radio messages telling him to back off.

      1. Pink Pirelli
        10th July 2011, 22:39

        +1. COTD mwh farrer.

  55. Two issues with this.

    Firstly is Horner’s banging on about how important the team is, ‘no driver is bigger than the team’ etc etc etc.

    Well Mr Horner, do you really think one drinks company is bigger than F1? Bigger than 120,000 fans who have paid more than £100 to watch the worlds most skilled drivers have a race?

    The second issue is his assumption that it ‘probably would have ended in the wall’.

    If he honestly thinks that I suggest he finds some new drivers. Utter nonsense as usual coming out of a team principal’s mouth.

    1. I would like to have written this. Can’t agree more.

  56. Took me a while to get this:

    Mark for whatever reason was slower. He was getting lap by lap slower, and Vettel was getting faster and was coming under enormous pressure from Hamilton. So if he would have stayed behind Mark, he would have been overtaken. So he had to do something. And Mark knew that he was slower, so he should have let him past.
    Helmut Marko

    1. Thanks for taking the time to find it. If only the tables were turned, so we could find out whether there was any bias within the team.

    2. Yes, we know why Mark was getting slower, he had a commanding lead and was managing the race from the front, they could have told him to speed up but instead they told him to save fuel and thereby slow down.

  57. i belived that webber COULD have pass vettel, if you watched the race he back up few times and on the breaking he has “made an effort” but he follow the orders….he is “turning into barrichello”

  58. if ferrari would have act like this…..everyone would have been so MAd.

  59. If Hamilton is still thinking about driving for fizzy drinks he needs to take this into account.

  60. I don’t for one minute believe Mark disobeyed team orders, he is in the middle of contract negotiations, for me the question is did he make another “bad” start or did he make a million dollar start. I’ve said before when it’s going to be a Red Bull one-two Mark will not be allowed to be the”one”, same for 2 & 3 apparently.
    For all those people saying they both would have crashed if Mark had tried to pass, Mark has managed a lot of passes this year 2nd without crashing out, why would he not be able to make a clean pass on his team-mate?

    1. If Mark’s willing to accept being a number 2 driver then that’s exactly where he’ll end up and deserve to end up.

      I think this incident literally came down to Seb vs Web on track at the end. I don’t completely buy Horner’s arguments but then again Hamilton and Massa went bump at the end so he has a point. I’m cyncial but I think the only reason was to give Seb the points because he has such a lead and they just want to wrap the title up but that’s just my own speculation. The big problem with that is all the tosh Horner came out with after Germany last year.

      1. Steph, at Marks age and in the middle of contract negotiations he has no choice but to accept being a number two driver and be number 2 in the championship, Mark has served his time driving dogs,he doesn’t want to go back to that again.

        1. Mark has served his time driving dogs,he doesn’t want to go back to that again.

          Indeed, Mark has had a hard slog to get into a good car, which I have no issue with. The problem for me, is how in 2009 and 2010 he squandered his opportunity by not beating his teammate. Then the (understandable) favouritism kicked in.

          In contrast, Jenson Button grasped his opportunity with both hands in the first season he got a championship winning car. Now, he’s even giving Lewis Hamilton a consistently hard time.

          1. tattsbrah (@xbarrettmatex)
            11th July 2011, 10:35

            He hardly squandered it really, I mean in 2009 it was already known that Vettel was the favoured son in RBR, as he was a rare ‘success’ of their young driver program. As such, Webber always had to contend with Vettel and at times his own time, and also hit a stroke of bad luck towards the end of the ’09 championship with gearbox failures and crashes etc.

            When you look at 2010, it was announced by CH in 2009 that the 2010 car would be based around Vettel’s driving style, i.e. that of a maniac, so Webber had to contend with that, and the now blatant favouritism within the team for Vettel. When you reach 2011, you can now see that yes, the favouritism has kicked into top gear, but it’s not Mark’s fault – It’s a common case in his career – Wrong place at the Wrong time.

          2. Apparently, Senna was slightly favoured over Prost, but in 1989, Prost won.

            In 2007, it was expected that Hamilton would b the number 2 up against a reigning double world champ. Lewis matched Fernando anyway.

            That’s what Mark Webber never did over the course of a season (back to back seasons). Quite simply, Vettel is favoured because he has proven himself as by far the better bet for championships and wins within the team.

    2. i think horner knew the little spoiled german would have made it go tits up with the clumsy overtaking/defending he does, clear track the kid is untouchable but i think he lacks racecraft seems to be getting better though, i have to say as a maca fan of 10+ years but they are fluking up to often me thinks.

      1. Yeah that’s probably right right cause we saw the spoiled little Brit crash into Massa on the last lap.

        I can never see what nationality has to do with a drivers skill or personality. Hamilton’s behaviour is the most ugly of any driver while Jenson is the most positive and inspirational driver BOTH are Brits.

        Seriously when will Hamilton stop punting people off track. Lewis record makes him the crash kid.

  61. This makes Vettel looks even better!!!
    So all the talk about him doing better than Webber because Red Bull favoring him is baseless. As it turns out, Mark is indeed trying as hard as he can, but Vettel is simply better!!

    1. I don’ty quite understand that Sumedh! Sorry! :) Personally I think it gives Vettel a bad press -even though he had nothing to do with it- because it looks like he needed Horner to call Mark to leave him alone.

    2. or maby the car is designed to suit seb??? glad we never got to see that anoing finer today i bet thats the one he had up bernies rusty starfish when they decide he would be the new shumi

      1. What’s an anoing finer?

        1. my mistake i meant finger

  62. Of course they were justified asking Mark not to try to pass Seb. But then mark was equally justified in ignoring it. How anyone can think differently is baffling.

  63. well said steph

  64. Horner had every right to say what he said… He was trying to get maximum points for the team. No-one in the Red Bull garage wanted to see a repeat of Turkey ’10, Horner was warning Webber not to risk it, he was thinking about the team. If Webber overtook Vettel, they’d have still got 33 points, but the points difference between the top 2 would have been 6 points less (Vettel losing 3, Webber gaining 3) therefore it made more sense for Horner to tell Webber to stay in 3rd and bring home the points in the constructors championship. I can’t see what the argument is all about!

    Bad point to all of this? I’ve never in the past 3 or 4 years, agreed with Eddie Jordan so well. The Schumacher incident is another matter for me though.

  65. Massive fail from Horner admitting he didn’t trust them not to make contact. That means he’s either trying to cover something up or expresses a lack of confidence in his drivers. I’d be fuming if my boss told me I couldn’t be trusted to pass someone without hitting them.

    And even if it’s totally innocent, it’s still stupid. A collision would be far worse than fuelling the old favouritism rumours from last year. Besides, why say “maintain the gap”? Why not “give each other extra space if you want to race?” Then it’s the driver’s fault if anything happens.

    I don’t know about anyone else but every aspect of Horner’s order and then justification offends me as a racing fan.

    1. A collision would be far worse than fuelling the old favouritism rumours from last year.

      A collision would be less worse than fuelling the old favouritism rumours from last year. Bad grammar and bad choice of words ;)

      1. Try “better” before PM jumps on you.

  66. Jagogen (@)
    10th July 2011, 21:43

    I think that team orders make to motor racing a preset reality show.Every driver is noble in his way of racing,and their efforts make this sport so special.Webber wasn’t particulary fast during the race.But he is seating in that seat to race and not to cruise to the finish line.Probably webber wouldn’t pass him for another 3 laps if the race was longer,probably he will never win a championship,but he should have been left to race his team mate,at that exact moment,otherwise he will be highly demotivated for the rest of the season.Today I would be much proud if I was Hamilton which defended his place the way he did and finishing fourth,than vettel finishing second as his team mate is told not to race him.I would only understand a team order if it was last race of the season,and definitive for his team mate to win the championship!No excuse for what red bull did today cosiderning vettel’s lead and their critics to ferrari last year.

    1. Spot on, sir.

  67. I’d greatly agree with you Steph in the above 2 comments and as an f1 fan would add, Webber did chose to be #2 after having mechnical problems at the beginning of the season.
    only now he wants to show he can drive prety well and it’s that time of the season when drivers are fishing for new contracts and as far as I remember, Mark does not have one.
    Horner just as most of the principals are huge manipulators, hurts my intelligence. Webber’s pass on Vettel would hurt Vettel’s unstable psyche and there good be tons of other reasons.
    Iam more sorry for Mark than for Massa because he gives us better fights.

  68. Team orders make fools of F1 fans. I hate seeing it and I hate being part of a so-called sport that cheats its fans. I hate watching Vettel glorying in his victories while knowing he’s being handed them on a plate.
    The whole thing’s a complete farce.

    1. I agree with you in that the team orders are disturbing as a fan. The race was pretty good up until Webber was ordered to backed down. The fact that they would order a racer to do such a thing is appalling. It is extremely unfair to Webber who earned the right to compete for his spot. He was clearly in position to make a pass. It makes me less excited as a fan. It goes against the spirit of competition which is what F1 should be about.

    2. He isn’t being handed wins on a plate, he earns them like everyone else.

  69. a quetion for someone more knowlagbe than myself eg, keith,shurly they have some sort of manual spanner to put on wheel nuts could they have not legged it up the pit lane and got that wheel bak on even if jenson was far far back they could have useds him as a buffer for lewis by delebritly but not delibtly hold ind the bulls and the we cant be trusted to race guys?? and if any one says you cant move around an active pit lane there was at least 5 ferrari guys runing the entire length when massa decided to take the hose with him in singapore a few years back.

    1. Sadly they are only allowed to work on the car in the pits.

  70. woner wich lucky person went to that last corner when they where alowed on track and got lewis’s endplate that would be the firt place i would be going.

  71. This just proves that Red Bull prefer Vettel, Webber could have easily got 2nd position, He’s a great driver so he knows that if its too dangerous to pass he wont attempt it. Just a lame excuse Red Bull have made up to cover the fact that they want to give Vettel the higher points to give him the boost towards the championship AGAIN!!
    Personally i feel sorry for Webber.

  72. This just proves that Red Bull prefer Vettel, Webber could have easily got 2nd position, He’s a great driver so he knows that if its too dangerous to pass he wont attempt it. Just a lame excuse Red Bull have made up to cover the fact that they want to give Vettel the higher points to give him the boost towards the championship AGAIN!!
    Personally i feel sorry for Webber.

  73. Horner must think we are all fools, (although I see some people have bought his propaganda nonsense)!

    He and/or the team, clearly wanted Vettel to take the most points as he has the chance to win the drivers title.

    Anything can happen in F1 and a couple of retirements from Vettel would put the title back in doubt, so they need to favour him to get the drivers title asap.

    It seemed more to me that they didn’t trust Vettel not to crash into Webber if he tried to pass, rather than the other way around and that Vettel would be very unhappy if the team allowed Webber to pass him with no team orders.

    I think keeping Vettel happy and giving him the most points, rather than the team, was the main purpose of the team order.

    1. i could not agree more my freind like damon hill said people come to watch the drivers do battle not the team decide whos wining finaly thought we got rid of that when shumi went in 06 but clearly not if i was webber id find a good drive somewere and do as much as he can to wreck vettels dominence while still in the team.if he can mage on track sand in tank lol

      1. Problem is, your “friend” Damon Hill benefitted at Spa EXACTLY in the same way Vettel did on Sunday.

        1. very critical of me arnt you

          1. Sorry mate. I didn’t realise it was the same person. I don’t look at the names just the comments themselves.

  74. Just watching the podium on a roundup program and the announcers comment made a light bulb go on in my head. No doubt having failed to give Sebastien a new record as the only driver to finish 1st. in every race, they are now trying to get the record for the most wins without being worse than second. It would have been pretty selfish of Mark to spoil Sebs chance of another record.

  75. I have no problem with a slower teammate being asked to cleanly and safely let a faster teammate pass. I feel very differently about asking a faster teammate to not pass a slower teammate, unless it’s critical to the slower winning a championship and the faster is not in contantion.

  76. If “the team is more important” then Horner should have told Vettel that Webber is faster. That would have been both sporting and sensible in terms of avoiding one or both drivers taking each other off.

    The overall benefit to the team in view of the current (at the time of the call) point standings would have been greater than the eventual outcome. Increasing the risk of loosing second place in the championship to Alonso and Ferrari surely isn’t in the teams best interest which exposes Horners assertion that “the team is more important” as… ********, imho.

    If… the points gap was significantly smaller I think the call made by Horner would have been understandable, if not sporting in the true sense, and the “team is more important” reasoning could be half way justyfied.

    But the call in the name of the greater good of the team just doesn’t stack up as things stand at the moment.

  77. For those (particularly David A) who says he couldn’t get the job done; Mark might say he ignored the radio messages, but in the back of his mind, he knows that the few gaps he had were just too risky. For the lead, and against a different car, I have no doubt he would have attempted to outbrake once or twice, and risked a lockup or running wide; but it can’t help your state of mind if you have saint Christian shouting in your ear to back off. Seb shouldn’t cop anything for this, his tryes were older, he defended well, Webber had a few half-hearted attempts to pass, but decided against it. There was maturity from both drivers.

    Then again, I haven’t heard any radio messages from Seb to the team; can anyone clarify if he asked Rocky to get Mark to back off?

    1. It is valid to say that the messages did not help Mark’s state of mind, but all things aside, it comes down to a simple yes or no. He didn’t get the pass done.

      Not to say his pace wasn’t very good in the latter stages of the race, it’s long overdue that he at least matches Vettel.

  78. Also, it’s a huge shame that Schumi hit Kamui; entirely his fault of course, and clumsy in that weather, but for the rest of the race he still seemed to have great pace and sharp overtaking skills. Praying that Merc can produce something half decent sooner or later!

  79. Mr Horner – You are a hypocrite.

    But I would have made the same call.

  80. “We didn’t stop them racing at the start.” says Horner. Then prove to us that the start engine maps were exactly the same and have been the same all this year and last. Prove to us that the software controlling the off throttle has been exactly the same all season. Red Bull gives you ….. The way that line is completed is their franchise and their brand’s means and ends.

    1. Horner may have come up with some rubbish, but all that would be taking it too far.

  81. A true Aussigrit Webber,why will I listen to my team? I would have been happy if he would have got pass Vettel cutting Seb’s front wing.Vettel have a comfortable margin in front of him so why will you do things like this? I want to see Webber do racing of his own,just come on Thursday & the do the race weekend & fly back home in Monday.The next races from here will be interesting.

  82. Do I agree with the order? No.
    Could Mark have passed Vettel if it weren’t for the order? Probably No. Because as we have seen, he clearly tried and there simply was not enough time and laps remaining.

    As we all know, the ban on team orders has been removed so teams are now entiteled to make orders and they did just that. The rule to prevent team orders is impossible to implement under the current system.

  83. I’m just curious what would the reaction be if the order was for Vettel to surrender the position, something like “Webber is faster than you, please confirm you understood the message”… ;-)

  84. If REDBULL(horner) asked mark on the last lap to stop racing and maintain the gap – fair enough. But the requests started apprantly 4 laps to go, that seems very poor judgement. But I agree, Vettel can just let mark pass by, since they both had no chance of catching alonzo. Should have let em be men on the track and race. Horner tried to protect his IMPETIOUS Boy behind the wheel.

  85. For sure Webber could have not done cleanly too, judging from couple of crashes he has done.

    1. I guess you mean all the crashes he had coming from 18th to 2nd in China.

  86. Webber is starting to be my favourite driver, so cool and so smart. I can feel he intimidated Vettel from the way Vettel answered the questions at the press conference.
    Should not have lost his pole at the start…

  87. With the kind of lead Red Bull has, they ought to encourage Webber to go for it. They only look like point-greedy driver-biased jerks. It’s a race. Webber is in second place!

    Webber has the best chance to give Vettel a battle and would do nothing more then give more camera time to watching two redbulls. But instead they would rather play it safe, and let Vettel run ahead. Because of this the cameras focus on other teams. Redbull needs to rethink their basic intentions. I would have a lot more respect for the team if they let them race each other.

  88. The problem with this situation is we’ll never know if Webber could have passed Vettel. It really ruins things!

  89. The best thing Mark can do is get out of Red Bull at the end of season,it’s clear to me Vettal is the blue-eyed boy and Mark plays second fiddle,no matter how many times Horner protests things are equal.
    But under the rules now Red Bull have done nothing wrong,the only wrong doing is cheating the fans out of a possible battle between them.

  90. Lets face it, this is a clear sign that the current F1 rules are flawed. If you have one team with the fastest car the only challenger to the leading driver is his team mate. If the rules allow teams to stop the 2 front runners racing then F1 isn’t worth watching any more.

    If I was Webber next time I would go banzi on the first corner…..there isn’t time for team orders to be given then !

  91. Mark has been having bad starts since the beginning of the season, why dont they emphsize the problem and sort it out like Alonso and Ferrari did???!!

  92. Webber to Williams Renault next year?? hmmmm nice thought..

    1. Been there, done that. It was a disaster, car totally outclassed and totally unreliable.

  93. had a 5 large on webber to beat vettel / please let me know how i can recoup the loss , or does match fixing only apply to Pakistans cricketers

  94. If RBR offers him a contract, he’ll take it. Notice he has not complained once this year (not as obviously as last year). No “Not bad for a number 2 driver” and such…

  95. cool its back

  96. Like most people I find team orders hard to take. We would like the drivers we support to win, fair and square. But I fully understand why team ordered are given. Teams consist of hundreds of people, not just 2 drivers. The old “four legs of the table analogy. Sponcers/fans/team/drivers. The drivers are the easest to replace. from one race weekend to the next a drievr can be replaced. a million fans or a team of skilled technicians nor sponcers can be obtained or replaced with ease. We like our hero’s, the drivers but they represent hundreds of people in the team and sponcers and at the end of the day, I can understand why team orders are given. All the money spent and all the work but hundeds of people would be wasted and worth nothing if 2 drivers, in a points winning position, take each other out. We remember the try scorers in rugby, not the 14 other people without whom the try would have been impossible. In this case I do think Vettel is slightly better than Weber( not just because like most South Africans, I am an “ABA’ supporter “anyboby but australia), just like Schumi was better than barrichello. They cry about races they could have won (which is true) but the team is backing the driver who has PROVEN to have the most chance of winning for the whole team.

  97. I understand why Red Bull told Webber to maintain the gap although I would have preferred it if they hadn’t.

    I hope now we won’t hear Horner preaching about how Red Bull don’t issue team orders and let their drivers race as he has done many times before this race.

    Weren’t Red Bull quite vocal about what Ferrari did at Germany last year as well?

    Also the way Horner was defending the order after the race was that if Webber had tried to overtake Vettel then it was virtually guaranteed that they would crash into each other.

  98. I support Webber on this, he showed character by not bending over although this situation is nothing compared to Massa/Alonso I wonder if roles were reversed would Vettel be told to stay back and listen?

  99. The team are just saying that to save embarrassment for vettel, Its pretty clear that webber could have overtaken vettel if he’d have really gone for it. Vettels got it easy, the best car out there and a teammate who is not allowed to race him.

    1. Damon, I not sure how it was pretty cleat that webber could have overtaken vettal. the guys are tv are ALWAYS saying “catching is one thing, passing is another”. its not like vettels car was breaking down. Marks tyres were alao old. on average over the season vettel has been better. Mark will like barrichello always have the excuse ” i could have won if i had been allowed to”
      All he needs to do is prove it. get the poles , win the races and with a lead over this team mate it will be in the teams best interst to support him. it is a team sport afther all. (see my comment above) frankh

      1. +1. And getting pole then giving it away at the start (like the last three poles Mark has had) isn’t good enough.

      2. Have you guys heard of DRS, that’s when the car on your gearbox gets another 15k top speed on you going down the straight.

        1. That facilitates, rather than guarantees an overtake.

  100. During the canadian race, vettel had no problem letting Button pass through wiht a fast car, whitout being held up in the last few laps. But apprantly has issues when he races his team car. Webber should have ripped the rear tire out of the swaying vettel in the front. Make hime pay the price for not giving enough racing line.

  101. Oh, the times, they are a-changin’!

  102. Oh look at the polls.


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