2012 Bahrain GP, British teams and overtaking statistics

Your questions answered

Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso, Bahrain, 2010

Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso, Bahrain, 2010

Will F1 race in Bahrain next year? How many F1 teams are based in Britain?

It’s time to tackle another set of F1 Fanatic readers’ questions.

2012 Bahrain Grand Prix

Robin Prior has doubts the Bahrain Grand Prix will go ahead in 2012:

Can the 2012 Bahrain race take place? I think it looks very unlikely.

The front page of the New York Times today [16th September] features a story about the brutal repression still going on in Bahrain. Big western firms are moving out. How long can it be before people start asking difficult questions? Will some F1 sponsors decide that they don’t want to be associated with this dreadful regime and ask to have their logos pulled for that race?

Even if the regime capitulated today and allowed the dissent that it is so brutally crushing, how realistic is it to think that after so many killings and disappearances all would be sweetness and light so quickly?

The fact that no one in F1 has mentioned Bahrain since this year’s race was pulled is intriguing – what is everyone so frightened of?
Robin Prior

I think the lack of F1-related news on Bahrain since the race was cancelled is merely because this year’s race has been definitively cancelled and attention hasn’t turned to next year’s race yet. Expect that to change during the off-season.

As for whether the race will take place, at this early stage it is possible we could go through exactly the same uncertain situation as last year. But that’s seven months away at the moment and a lot can happen in that time.

Two-hour time limit

The 2009 Malaysian Grand Prix was stopped early

Andy has a question on the two-hour time limit:

How come the Canadian Grand Prix this year ran over four hours, yet 2009’s Malaysian Grand Prix was only 50 minutes?

I know the Malaysian Grand Prix had the race stopped, and the clock continued. Yet at the Canadian Grand Prix, they didn’t stop once the two hours had completed.
Andy

F1 races are run to a distance of 305km or a time limit of two hours, whichever comes first.

The way the rules work when a race is suspended is not entirely intuitive. Basically the time spent under the red flag does not count towards the two-hour time limit. However it is included when the total race duration is quoted – hence the confusing situation of the Canadian Grand Prix lasting more than twice the two-hour time limit.

In the case of the 2009 Malaysian Grand Prix, the race was stopped and then not restarted as visibility was to poor due to the rain and decreasing light levels at the track.

See here fore a more detailed explanation, and the unusual example of a 20-lap race that took over five hours to complete:

Newsletter

Good news for Christopher – you can get F1 Fanatic in your inbox:

Have you considered a weekly email newsletter? I’d find that useful.

Many thanks,
Christopher

You can subscribe to F1 Fanatic by email via the daily digests which include all the articles published each day. Sign up here:

British teams

Williams F1 headquarters

Williams F1 headquarters

A straightforward question from Errol:

Can you please tell me how many of the teams are British run?

Errol Stagg

Of the 12 teams currently active in F1, eight are based in the UK. These are Red Bull (Milton Keynes), McLaren (Woking), Williams (Grove), Mercedes (Brackley), Renault (Enstone), Force India (Silverstone), Lotus (Hingham) and Virgin (Dinnington).

You can view the locations of their factories on their team information pages which are here (and linked at the bottom of every page):

Overtaking statistics

Lewis Hamilton, Nico Rosberg, Singapore, 2011

Hamilton takes Rosberg in Singapore

We’ve seen a lot more passing in 2011, prompting this question from Marko:

Hi Keith,

I have a question. Do you have info or know someone who have that sort of information, how many times did every driver pass (overtake) in race in his F1 career?

Thanks for an answer.
Marko

Overtaking statistics are a tricky business because you need very detailed information from the race to compile them.

A lap chart alone is not enough, because you risk overlooking drivers who swap position twice in a lap, or overtaking moves that happen on the same lap as pit stops.

The teams have access to GPS data to work out overtaking moves more accurately. Before the German Grand Prix, Mercedes determined 623 passes had been made this year, of which:

  • 175 were made on Lotus, Virgin or HRT cars
  • 43 were between team mates
  • Of the remaining passes, 180 were “DRS-assisted” and 225 were not
  • At this point, Canada had seen the most passes (136), followed by Turkey (123) with the fewest in Monaco (22) and Silverstone (29)

Without the same data available to the teams, I can’t produce the kind of detailed and accurate analysis of overtaking statistics you’re looking for.

I have seen statistics on overtaking quoted from a range of different sources but they often contradict each other, most likely because of the difficulty of obtaining useful raw data.

Keeping track of your comments

Woolford is looking for his old comments:

Hi Keith,

I attempted to review my past posts on your site, so I did a search of my name but it turns up nothing. I get the impression that this feature is absent or not. Please update me on this, thanks.
Woolford Hopkinson

At the moment it’s not very easy to keep track of your previous comments on the site. This is definitely a feature I intend to introduce in the near future.

Favourite drivers and teams

Hi Keith,

I have a couple of suggestions for posts: A quiz asking visitors “which driver do you support?” and “which team do you support?”

I believe it could lead to lots of discussion since the one who we support is not always the one we consider the best.
Luis

I have been considering something along these lines. But rather than conduct individual polls, I’d rather allow everyone in the community to see who supports which drivers and teams.

As with the previous comment, this is a feature I hope to introduce to the site.

F1 race programmes and posters

Keith,

I was in Monza last week for the Italian Grand Prix and was impressed at the quality of the race programmes available on sale.

Do you know if it is possible to get hold of the official programmes either in the days prior to each race or even in the week after at regular price?
Simon Hull

Hi,

I am looking to buy the official 2011 Singapore Grand Prix poster. Do you know where I could do that?
Grant Manny

To my recollection, there was a time when you could buy these through the official F1 website. But it seems this is no longer the case.

That being so, your best is probably going to be the inevitable eBay.

If anyone else knows a good place to get F1 programmes and posters, post your suggestions in the comments.

Got a question for F1 Fanatic? Send it in via the contact form. Please include your real name.

Your questions answered


More of your questions answered

Images ?é?® Mercedes, Toyota F1 World, Williams, Singapore GP/Sutton

Advert | Go Ad-free

61 comments on 2012 Bahrain GP, British teams and overtaking statistics

    • Not the kind of move that gives hope “all will be fine” in a couple of months, right :-(

      I had just wanted to post a link to just about the same story from the BBC.
      It also includes the information that

      In a separate case, the special security court sentenced a protester to death for killing a policeman.

      Now, I won’t go into a debate on the death penalty. But how come this protestor was sentenced to death already, while not a single officer of the security forces has so far even been accused for the numerous killings done by them.

      I must say this really makes one desperate and feel bad about how much the commission investigating the whole episode will be able to really do their work and be able to publish it.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 13:17

        But how come this protestor was sentenced to death already, while not a single officer of the security forces has so far even been accused for the numerous killings done by them.

        If they had orders to use lethal force, can the individuals reasonably be held accountable? They were, after all, just following orders. The guilt rests with someone higher up. Wasn’t that your argument throughout the entire uprising – that the government was accountable?

        • I agree with that post PM.

          I wrote about officers of the security forces, meaning that to include those giving the orders (+responsible ministers). Certainly not limited to the guys ending up shooting the actual shots who were out there in the streets probably terrified as much as the people they were attacking.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 13:51

            The only way to successfully prosecute a security officer would be to prove that they either a) ignored specific orders not to kill civilians, or b) were never given orders one way or the other, but killed civilians regardless.

            Even then, a charge or murder would be very difficult to prove. They were security officers responding to large-scale protests that have already been demonstrated to be violent (as a protester killed a police man; whether or not it was actually murder is open to debate, but the point stands – there was violence).

    • gwenouille (@gwenouille) said on 29th September 2011, 13:14

      This is unbelievable…

  1. I would really like to see who supported what teams. It would be especially useful when you get these jubbs ranting on about how everyone on this site supports one person and show favouritism.

    • bananarama (@bananarama) said on 29th September 2011, 13:21

      Yeah, I wish I could somehow show what team I like best .. :-P

    • AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 29th September 2011, 13:49

      Many of us don’t have any particular allegiance, myself included. Of course, we can always make that point, but I do like how things are at the moment, getting to know people and ask these questions is much better.

      • What if Massa retired (far away may this day be!)? I’d have to change my favourite driver and vote again. I do not find Massa is the best driver out there, nor is Liuzzi, but I support both.

    • It’ll be complicated. I for one like more than one driver, and sometimes change from season to season. So I’m not sure how could this be done.

      • verstappen (@verstappen) said on 30th September 2011, 9:15

        Here as well. Sometimes a driver grows on you. At first you think ‘meh’, but then you get some respect and even more appreciation.

        It’s what I had with Button. But maybe I’m just opportunistic.

        To solve this, maybe you could introduce a scale, so you can like or not like a driver from -5 till +5. If you then also keep the historic data you can track these changes of thought.

        I really would like to see that data on Massa, Hamilton and Schumacher to give a few examples.

  2. On Bahrain, I fear we will see the same movie in months to come. The thing is that people feel that monarchs are far away from their demands and I don’t see positions getting closer anytime soon.

    • Kiril Varbanov (@kiril-varbanov) said on 29th September 2011, 11:59

      Personally I would suggest that Bahrain is replaced with Turkey immediately, in order to stop that meaningless theater.

      As for the other topics on that article – very interesting stuff.

      • Turkey?! Just because the racism and intolerance towards the Kurdish people in Turkey is not headline news doesn’t mean it inst there.

        If F1 decides to replace the Bahrain GP on moral/ethical grounds than Turkey certainly wouldn’t be on top of my list.

        Just shows how powerful mass media is in forging public opinion.

        And purely on sporting grounds, why Turkey? there are much better tracks out there with a bigger public interest in F1. there is a long waiting list and limited slots in the calendar. I just don’t see Turkey returning. And especially not to make a moral point. That would be almost comical.

        • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 13:28

          Just because the racism and intolerance towards the Kurdish people in Turkey is not headline news doesn’t mean it inst there.

          More to the point, the Turks cannot afford their race.

          If F1 decides to replace the Bahrain GP on moral/ethical grounds than Turkey certainly wouldn’t be on top of my list.

          Every country has something that would disqualify them from hosting a race on moral and/or ethical grounds:

          – Bahrain quelled an uprising of the population through lethal force.
          – Turkey is intolerant towards the Kurds.
          – The Australian government attempted to force through legislation that would give them the power to deport asylum seekers to a country (Malaysia) where illegal immigrants have no rights and are subject to arbitrary detention, legistlation that would have removed the government’s legal obligation to offer protection to anyone seeking asylum.
          – China is attempting to force the Dalai Lama to declare a successor in China (which is not how it works), which would give them the power to tighten their grip on Tibet; Beijing describes the Dalai Lama as the single biggest theat to China’s culture and security, when he is the spiritual and political leader of an entire nation of people whose beliefs are founded on principles of non-violence.

          Under your logic of not holding a race on moral or ethical grounds, everyone is disqualified.

          • I agree that if F1 wants to race purely on ethical grounds it shouldn’t go to China, Malaysia & UAE also. If those countries face similar problems as Baharain..they would be more oppressive than Baharain. Most of F1 sponsors are already doing business in many dreadful regime places..so why they feel ashamed to go to baharain..if it brings more money..

          • to your first point. we are talking about a hypothetical scenario proposed by Kiril. so not sure what you are trying say here.

            to your second point. Not holding a race on moral grounds is not MY logic, but that of the person I was responding to. I was making a point that if you DO take the moral stance, then Turkey would surely not be the perfect example. Why would I have to disqualify all countries on moral grounds? That’s not my logic but yours. Are you seriously suggesting that all countries are equivalent when it comes to morals and human rights? That is a very strange world view to have. Even the examples you listed are not morally equivalent.

            I was pointing to the irony of Kiril’s choice in Turkey. I am not saying all countries have to be squeaky clean to hold an F1 race. Not sure why you interpreted my comment so.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 14:58

            Why would I have to disqualify all countries on moral grounds?

            Because you end up being a hypocrite. You’ll say “Okay, Bahrain, you can’t have a race because we have moral issues with the way you run your country, but China, you can have a race despite our moral issues with the way you run your country”.

          • 1. The Japanese whale catching habit is a moral issue isn’t it?
            2. Silvio Berlusconi is a big moral problem for Italy…
            3. Death penalty in the US? Gitmo prison? Sure!

            Let’s have 20 races in Canada and we’re good.

          • PM,
            But surely not ALL countries are on the same level as Bahrain and China. You don’t have to be a hypocrite to recognize that, and chose a different country with enjoys more freedoms and rights.

            You’re referring to the situation as it is, with Bernie in charge (hypocrite). I am postulating a hypothetical scenario.

            The original point being – in this scenario – saying: “lets not race in Bahrain because of the way the government is acting. Lets move the race to Turkey” is just absurd. But I wouldn’t say the same thing if one were to substitute Turkey with the Netherlands for example. I don’t see what would be hypocritical about that.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 15:41

            But surely not ALL countries are on the same level as Bahrain and China. You don’t have to be a hypocrite to recognize that, and chose a different country with enjoys more freedoms and rights.

            But as soon as you go making a political point about one race, you have to start making a political point about other races. And the whole thing just starts getting convoluted, because what if the FIA decides that one race can be held, but the teams or drivers disagree with it?

            The only reason why a race should ever be cancelled because of local violence is on the grounds of safety, not for the sake of making some foolhardy political statement. Arguably, if things are at the point where the sport would be in a position to make that statement, the the situation is so bad that the point where entering the country becomes unsafe has long since passed.

            Formula 1 is wracked by internal politics often enough as is. It doesn’t need to go getting involved in local politics.

          • i agree with you. but it is funny when someone who DOES believe F1 should make political statements then suggests Turkey as the alternative.

            that was the only point i was trying to make.

        • Shrieker (@shrieker) said on 29th September 2011, 23:49

          Racism and intolerance towards Kurds ?!? What the hell are you talking about. There are over 10 million citizens living in Turkey with a Kurdish background. You surely tried to mean intolerance towards PKK terorists, who are responsible for over 30.000 casualties in the last 25 years. Terorists get no tolerance, period.

          And talk about mass media deceiving people. Is that what they are telling you over there ? “Turks are oppressing Kurds”. Sad, but expected.

  3. Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 11:10

    I have been considering something along these lines. But rather than conduct individual polls, I’d rather allow everyone in the community to see who supports which drivers and teams.

    Perhaps some kind of profile page is in order.

  4. Although lot of teams are based out of britain.. they shouldn’t be considered as British teams as they participate in F1 through different country Motorsport associations. I remember when RedBull first won race, Britain national anthem was played but then from next race they changed to Austrian one (Even Dietrich made some comments about that). RedBull – Austria, Force India – India, HRT – Spain, Mercedes – Germany?

  5. The only three teams that are in my view British are McLaren, Williams and Renault (the latter now races under a British tie up). I stopped supporting Red Bull after their owner moaned that our national anthem was played. Don’t like it Dietrisch? Move your team to Austria then.
    I’m a proud Brit and I’ll always support the British drivers and British teams. That’s why I was sad Marussia bought our Virgin and Mercedes bought out Brawn.

    • Brawn was basically the Honda team. so i’m not sure why you were sad when Mercedes bought them. In your own admission you don’t consider them one of the three true British teams anyway.

      • Honda was just a re-branding of BAR, who were Tyrrell before that.

        • i wouldn’t call it re-branding.

          Honda invested billions of dollars, developed their own engine and brought in hundreds of Japanese employees. They had two bases one of which was in Tochigi, Japan. Seems like more than re-branding to me. the team was morphed into something completely different (no pun intended).

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 15:07

            the team was morphed into something completely different

            A four-hundred-million-dollar-per-year black hole?

          • Yeah but hadn’t they been pouring money in for a while? Did a lot actually change between 05 and 06? I thought that it was the same case with Benetton-Renault being a slow takeover where the name changed but the majority of team running remained the same.

      • They were British in 2009 and I did ‘support’ them in the Honda years because they had a British driver and I always back the Brits (yes that does mean I’m backing one of the Force India’s too – Paul di Resta). In 2009 I felt so proud. A British driver winning the title in a British and independent team.

        • And the money for that British and independent team comes from where?

          • unoccprost said on 30th September 2011, 8:00

            I believe it came from Honda.

            Renault isn’t really British.. it has a British title sponsor, some Russian sponsors and the money is lent from a Russian Bank (snoros) and some Brazillian sponsors, and with a French name (Renault).

            Deits had every right to be anoyed when the wrong anthem was played, most teams are based in England for technical reasons, but with the money and branding and the reasons behind the team coming from elsewhere.

            Modtl, I think your foolish for getting anoyed at Deit for being anoyed. It is his team and it flys under an Austrian flag and so the Austrian anthem should be played.
            If you can’t accept that other teams are involved and need to have bases in England then you are completely lost to the world.

            In your world is every team bar Sauber, Torro Rosso, HRT and Ferrari British?

            In your world, and since think all teams based in England should be happy to hear the british naitonal anthem whenever they win, should he hear the British anthem at all times except when Ferrari win?

            And the order is
            Britain’s RB
            Britain’s RB
            Italy’s Ferrari
            Britain’s Mclaren
            Britain’s McLaren
            Britain’s Renault
            Britain’s Renault
            Britain’s Williams
            Britain’s Lotus
            Italy’s Torro Rosso
            Britain’s Williams
            Britain’s Virgin
            Britain’s Virgin

            DNF
            a Ferrari, a TR, a Lotus and both HRT’s

            That’s stupid. Now I’m tend to support people because of their nationalities and then go form there. I do support Webber more than Ricciardo though as I like Webber more. He gives time to charities and I like that. I also like Raikkonen and a few others.

            But almost demanding teams play the British anthem because of where they have to have their base in rediculos

  6. Dicarus said on 29th September 2011, 12:48

    I think the best overtaking stats are on cliptheapex.com, because they use all the feeds available (even fan footage if it helps) and lap charts.

  7. Hi Keith or anybody who can answer.

    If a race fail to start on Sunday due to bad weather can it be shifted to Monday? What if we have back to back races?

    • AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 29th September 2011, 13:54

      I think the race would just be cancelled.

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th September 2011, 14:55

      Fuji 2007 was the closest thing we’ve seen to this. Torrential rain and fog are common issues at the circuit; it’s right in the rainshadow of its namesake, Mt. Fuji. The race was run under safety car for quite some time until Tonio Liuzzi pitted and they realised visibility was actually pretty good when the cars weren’t banked up behind one another. I can’t imagine that there would be a rainstorm heavy enough to stop a race for the four or five hours from the sceduled 2pm start until dark, short of a hurricane.

  8. Well done for highlighting the Bahrain issue. The Guardian today is reporting that the Bahraini government is jailing doctors and nurses for 15 years (!) merely for treating injured protesters. There must be acute discomfort in some of the teams – sponsors won’t want to be associated with this sort of thing.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/29/bahrain-protester-death-sentence

    If this, along with other recent news, isn’t grounds enough to boycott the race, it begs the question: to what depths must a regime would sink before F1 says no thanks?

    • F1Yankee (@f1yankee) said on 29th September 2011, 22:59

      with the exception of force majeure, like a nutural disaster or war or something, there are stiff penalties for teams that fail to attend any round of a season, from both the FIA and FOM. pretty much the FIA would have to give the OK before anyone pulls out without killing the team.

  9. Err Bob said on 29th September 2011, 22:41

    I tried to read the previous articles but the bile keep rising, PM how can justify not guilty by ignorence of the fact, when the shisters know what goin down.

  10. F1Yankee (@f1yankee) said on 29th September 2011, 22:42

    Of the 12 teams currently active in F1, eight are based in the UK. These are Red Bull (Milton Keynes), McLaren (Woking), Williams (Grove), Mercedes (Brackley), Renault (Enstone), Force India (Silverstone), Lotus (Hingham) and Virgin (Dinnington).

    somebody inform ted the cheerleader about this

  11. F1Yankee (@f1yankee) said on 29th September 2011, 22:53

    I have been considering something along these lines. But rather than conduct individual polls, I’d rather allow everyone in the community to see who supports which drivers and teams.

    As with the previous comment, this is a feature I hope to introduce to the site.

    would this be a tag under the picture or something?

    \o/
    fav. team: abc
    fav. driver: 123

    i’m a fan of the sport, and of any 2 or more drivers fighting at high speeds.

  12. Wooolfy said on 30th September 2011, 4:33

    Thanks Keith for your response to

    Keeping track of your comments

    .

    It’s a great idea for the site and would allow me to review my state of mind at the time my comments were made and hopefully adds some accountability to some of the ‘hate and childish’ comments we withness so often.

  13. MagillaGorilla (@magillagorilla) said on 30th September 2011, 10:56

    Since this is the only time I almost 100% agree with PM. So I will propose my space dome track to you good people. F1 in SPACE, surely then we can get around the human rights debate anywhere the F1 or any other racing sport goes. Also with the morphomatic limited system over 250 international tracks can be set up and raced upon…now including old and new silverstone!!!

    DISCLAIMER: This is not a real thing, 120% satire for the great people of F1 Fanatic!!!

Add your comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

All comments must abide by the comment policy. Comments may be moderated.
Want to post off-topic? Head to the forum.
See the FAQ for more information.