Hamilton and Perez given grid penalties

2011 Indian Grand Prix

Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, Buddh International Circuit, 2011

Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, Buddh International Circuit, 2011

Lewis Hamilton and Sergio Perez have been handed grid penalties for the Indian Grand Prix.

Both drivers will be relegated three places on the grid for Sunday’s race.

The stewards judged both had failed to slow sufficiently when passing double waved yellow flags at the end of the first practice session.

The explanation for the two drivers’ penalties differed slightly. The stewards said Perez, “ignored double waved yellow flags at turn 16 whilst a car was being recovered in close proximity to the track.”

Hamilton’s penalty was for, “ignoring double waved yellow flags at Turn 16 whilst marshalls were in close proximity to the track.”

Both were deemed to have broken appendix H, article 2.4.5.1(b) of the International Sporting Code. This says that under double waved yellow flags a driver must: “Reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/or marshals working on or beside the track.”

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224 comments on Hamilton and Perez given grid penalties

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  1. Rob Wilson (@rob-wilson) said on 28th October 2011, 9:05

    Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Is how i just reacted to that headline.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 9:10

      @rob-wilson I don’t think you can argue with the penalties though. If the yellow flags were out and they didn’t back off sufficiently, that’s a straight penalty. Doing so under double waved yellows is more severe.

      As it happens, these are the two drivers who’ve had the most race penalties this year:

      Race penalties

      You think that might make them more circumspect but it seems not.

      • Rob Wilson (@rob-wilson) said on 28th October 2011, 9:18

        Whether this penalty is deserved or not, it must be doing hammy’s head in! He can’t seem to take to the track without getting some sort of penalty, i wonder what his reaction was when they told him that, i definitely wouldn’t have wanted to be the one to tell him.

        • Bleeps_and_Tweaks (@bleeps_and_tweaks) said on 28th October 2011, 9:35

          @Rob Wilson – I’m a big Mclaren and Hamilton fan, so when I read the headline initially I felt the same.

          But unfortunately we have all seen how dangerous motorsport is recently, in some tragic circumstances. So the desire to push the boundaries of the regulations and your cars performance for a glory run at the end of FP1, particularly if there were martials near the track, is reckless and pretty pointless as well.

          Another glum weekend to come for Hamilton I imagine.

        • martin (@marti) said on 28th October 2011, 10:26

          Haha,Lewis gets the news, runs out into the pitlane ,drops to his knees,rips open his racing suit to show a t-shirt”y always me” then gets another penalty for obstructing the pitlane..haha.. lol come on Lewis u and JB for the win

      • Jelle van der Meer (@jelle-van-der-meer) said on 28th October 2011, 9:21

        Not sure if it was such a clear situation as even the BBC commentators were confused.

        As I was watching the YELLOW disappeared from clock and live timing prior to Hamilton starting the final sector.

        Therefore you can question is a single marshall waving flags compared to central system indicating clean track is not conflicting information.

        THere is no gain at all for a driver not to slow down in practice 1 so do not see Perze nor Hamilton having done this deliberaretly and likely were incorrect advised or confused by conflicting info.

        • BasCB (@bascb) said on 28th October 2011, 9:24

          It seems @jelle-van-der-meer, that the biggest trouble for the commetators was, that FOM did not show what happened and the timing screens were inconclusive.

          But if a marshall is waving double yellows, its just short of a red flag. Now that is something any driver should take seriously any time.

        • KeeleyObsessed (@keeleyobsessed) said on 28th October 2011, 23:33

          @jelle-van-der-meer … It seems to me that if they were confused by conflicted information, the last thing they’d do is speed up.

          I do, however, think the grid penalty is pushing it slightly. I think these are the first ‘3-place’ penalties to be given out since the new Quali system, does anyone know when the last ‘3-place’ penalty was given? I’ve got an imaginary cookie for anyone who answers correctly..

          Of course, I don’t know the answer, but I’m sure someone can look it up for me :P

      • Simon999 (@simon999) said on 28th October 2011, 9:42

        We need more information, before making a judgement on whether either driver needed to be more circumspect. Most people (myself included) may not have seen anything to do with the incident.

        1.) Sector times on the lap in question, and a comparison to the fastest sectors he did during the session.

        2.) Preferably some video evidence of the incident(s) – was there any conflicting information, as has been suggested by some (marshall waving yellows, onboard system turned green)?

        Obviously the penalty stands either way, but that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss how deserved it was. That can only be done with some decent evidence at our disposal, otherwise it will always degenerate into “Hamilton sucks” vs “Hamiton is persecuted”.

        • Simon999 (@simon999) said on 28th October 2011, 20:50

          Having now watched it, I’m in a better position to answer myself!

          Was it a penalty?

          Yes, by the letter of the law what Hamilton did broke the rules.

          Can he feel hard done by?

          I think so, having seen the footage. There’s a good chance he never saw the yellow flags, especially as the track light was green at the end of the same straight and the in-car warning had gone.

          If he saw the yellows, then it was a bit stupid. If he didn’t, he was just plain unlucky – his previous penalty count is also irrelevant.

      • Jake (@jleigh) said on 28th October 2011, 14:42

        Keith. What about in Aus when MSC continued to fly round under a red flag and didn’t recieve any penalty? Reprimand at most I think, especially for Ham as the electronic Yellows had gone

      • SupaSix-1 said on 28th October 2011, 16:29

        Wait Keith – Surely button should get a penalty too for overtaking another car whilst in the waved yellow-flagged zone??

        Button blatently broke the rule and then he as usual jumps on the radio to make out that someone was trying to kill him – and then also his buddies in the bbc 5 live crew also started to grovel to johnny herbert to let jenson off.

        He shouldve been investigated and this whole steward inconsistancy thing stinks as usual.

        Also keith why have you not made any mention of the confusion of yellow flags and the green light situation?
        -Its not exactly telling the full story is is?

        Even you & the rules have said it above yourself:
        “…appendix H, article 2.4.5.1(b) of the International Sporting Code. This says that under double waved yellow flags a driver must: “Reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop”.

        …please note again where it says: “….DO NOT OVERTAKE”!

        …unbelievable how a very few get carried by friends in high places.

        NO consistancies whatsoever!

        • Wonderduck (@wonderduck) said on 28th October 2011, 17:45

          You did watch P1, right? If Button was going, and I’m making up numbers here, 150mph, the HRT he passed was going 50mph and still slowing down.

          Yes, Button passed the HRT, granted. But the HRT is not the safety car, and short of slamming on the brakes, throwing out an anchor, dragging his feet, and intentionally running into a wall, he wasn’t going to be able to NOT pass in that specific situation.

          I suspect the stewards noticed that.

        • lewymp4 (@lewymp4) said on 28th October 2011, 20:39

          SupaSix…..this video seems to support your opinion regarding Button, and the confusion with the use of green lights, and yellow flags.

          I also would like to know, why were the double flags even being waved at Lewis, even after Maladanado’s car was removed?

          lhttp://vimeo.com/31262768

    • Franz said on 28th October 2011, 9:31

      On the BBC even the commentators sounded confused. I heard them saying the green light was on even though the double yellows were being waved. I really would like to hear more about this… it just doesn’t seem as cut & dry as it sounds.

      • IceIcePenguin said on 28th October 2011, 11:24

        1) The possible cause can be written down to “it’s India”. Everybody warned us about the chaos.
        2) Whenever the yellows pop up somewhere, I’m guessing the guys at the paddock should be well aware of the fact thus delivering the info to the driver stat
        3) Probably that lovely smoke for good old Bob minutes before the practice didn’t go too well for Lewis

  2. Magnificent Geoffrey (@magnificent-geoffrey) said on 28th October 2011, 9:09

    This is typical. The stewards must have something against him. He always seems to be the one getting penalties and I’m sick of it.

    Oh, and I’m sure Hamilton won’t be too pleased either.

  3. supernicebob (@supernicebob) said on 28th October 2011, 9:09

    When was the last time someone got a 3-place grid penalty? Don’t they usually go for 5?

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 9:17

      @supernicebob I think Heidfeld had one at Singapore, possibly in 2008.

      • supernicebob (@supernicebob) said on 28th October 2011, 9:26

        I thought it seemed a bit of an unusual number, but it looks like the standard penalty for impeding someone in qualifying.

        Buemi got one at Belgium last year apparently. Seems all the penalties I can find for ignoring yellow flags are 5 places. Consistency still a big issue for stewarding in F1.

      • Slr (@slr) said on 28th October 2011, 10:08

        Heidfeld got a three place penalty at China later that year also.

    • Dphect (@dphect) said on 28th October 2011, 11:54

      I think they should also fine the driver/team for something as dangerous as what’s happen.

      I am struggling with my opinion on this though, if the marshalls were on track and he didn’t lift off then fine I can accept it. But what is a confusing thing for me is why the light wasn’t on his steering wheel (or have I missed something?), showing him that there’s a yellow flag out. If he was in the zone, he could of easily missed yellow flags being shown as he wouldn’t of been keeping an eye out for them with the yellow flag light off.

  4. dam00r (@dam00r) said on 28th October 2011, 9:10

    This is just ridicilous..

    • KaIIe (@kaiie) said on 28th October 2011, 9:18

      Nothing ridiculous about it. Double waved yellows mean you back off, not set the fastest lap.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 28th October 2011, 9:22

      Exactly. Its just rediculous for any race driver to ignore seeing people working on a car right next to the track and double yellows being waved.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 13:24

      @dam00r Why? You don’t back off when you go through yellow flags, you get a penalty, we all know that.

      So does Hamilton and he’s not complaining about it.

      • mcmclaren said on 28th October 2011, 13:42

        so…tv presenters announce end of yellow flags

        yellow warning lights turn to green

        marshal way off the edge of track, hiding behind a fence waves his flags poorly, facing near vertical

        …and you expect lewis to see it?

        do you think every driver should drive around looking 20 meters away from the track just incase some one chooses to wave a flag around or should they keep their eyes on the track?

        surley its clear the way the marshals are positioned and acting is dangerous…no?

        surley if marshals are going to go close to the track in a non-emergancy situation they should radio race control and yellow flag the session…no?

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 13:54

          …and you expect lewis to see it?

          Yes.

          That’s what they’re there for. That’s why they’re bright yellow. That’s why they’ve been using them in motor racing for decades.

          I doubt he could hear the ‘TV presenters’ very well though.

          • mcmclaren said on 28th October 2011, 14:47

            but you have clearly missed the point keith,

            watch it again…is the marshal and flag NOT a long way off track? is the flag NOT hard to see…especially when travelling that fast sitting that low?

            has the session NOT been restarted?

            the yellow lights didn’t cancel them selves did they? the marshals MUST canclled them and green lighted the session

            to be quite frank I am shocked you are just ignoring this keith

            surley marshals on the track when race controll were obviously not aware of it is very dangerous indeed…no?

            sorry if you think im arguing for arguments sake but how can all this be ignored?

            as someone else said…lewis had nothing to gain from this, he didn’t sudenly think i’ll go get a penalty now because im bored driving this slowly past these yellow flags

            clearly he was not aware of it was he

            clearly if he’s not aware of it and neither are race control then it dangerous…no

            lewis getting a penalty or not doesn’t even come into it does it

            the marshals are clearly failing at their job…that’s the story here

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 14:56

            has the session NOT been restarted?

            The session had not been stopped at this point.

            I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. There was a yellow flag where the danger zone began and a green light where it ended. Hamilton and Perez failed to slow sufficiently between the two.

            As for “Hamilton had nothing to gain” – of course he did. He wanted to get another quick lap in at the end of the session for testing purposes. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been on the track, would he?

          • The Edge (@the-edge) said on 28th October 2011, 15:48

            if yellow flags are so great they have been used in motor racing and are always clearly visible…

            why do they now have lights on the steering wheel…which were turned off?

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 15:52

            @the-edge To supplement the flags and increase the chance of drivers seeing the warnings. They do not make the flags redundant. That’s why the rules refer to the flags.

          • BBT (@bbt) said on 28th October 2011, 16:13

            There were NO flags when Hamilton came onto that stretch of the track (straight). It was a single yellow just before Hamilton past it and double when he was about level. No as clear cut as I first though. Very poor Marshalling.

            Still a penalty though, as strictly speaking he past a double waved yellow and set his fastest lap.

          • Simon999 (@simon999) said on 28th October 2011, 20:55

            Hehe, has anyone else noticed that over time, Keith’s replies to comments have become increasingly sarcy? :P

  5. SafirXP said on 28th October 2011, 9:14

    There were yellow flags waving, a penalty is in order. Lewis fan (like myself) or not, those are the rules and that’s that. I really hope this comments section doesn’t go on & on into multiple pages!

  6. McGregski (@mcgregski) said on 28th October 2011, 9:15

    Such a **** take! I hope he nails pole tomorrow in Quali just to show he could have

  7. Jason (@jkstewie) said on 28th October 2011, 9:17

    Lewis keeps getting penalized because he keeps making mistakes. Simple as that.

  8. Joseph94 (@joseph94) said on 28th October 2011, 9:18

    Rules are rules. It’s fair. If it was Glock and Trulli we would not complain, so the same applies to the rest of the drivers on the grid. Simple as A,B,C.

  9. FullSpe3d (@dryyoshi) said on 28th October 2011, 9:18

    Shocking. They’ve got something against Hamilton, I’m sure of it. This was only free practice, jesus…

    • Whether its free practice, qualifying or the race if the stewards are on the track and the flags are being waved then the rules say back off.

    • Thecollaroyboys (@thecollaroyboys) said on 28th October 2011, 10:27

      Marshalls can end up just as dead in free practice as they would on race day.

    • David-A (@david-a) said on 28th October 2011, 12:20

      In Hungary 2006, Schumacher got a 10 place penalty for passing g under yellows.

    • Maksutov (@maksutov) said on 28th October 2011, 13:30

      They’ve got something against Hamilton

      It is hard to judge this situation about the penalty. Both drivers could have got away with it easily, and im sure some have in the past, but they didn’t.

      However, you don’t just get penalized all the time for being a good boy and obeying the rules. Trust me. If you think you do, then why don’t you try it with some aspect of everyday life and see what happens. To add to that, the more penalties you have the more likely you the center of attention to the stewards.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 13:52

      @dryyoshi

      hey’ve got something against Hamilton, I’m sure of it.

      I’m so bored of hearing this now. I don’t see any reason to believe they’ve got something against Hamilton.

      The majority of his penalties this year have been indisputably deserved, and this is another one.

      I thought maybe he was a bit unlucky in Monaco (in the race), but that’s it. The weaving in Malaysia, forcing Di Resta to take avoiding action in Hungary, hitting Massa in Singapore – these were all pretty clear-cut.

      • mcmclaren said on 28th October 2011, 14:18

        I though the rules prevented you from making more than 1 move to block some one from over taking…nothing about weaving

        lewis was moving OUT of the guys way in malaysia and the other guy kept following him no?

        now scumacher at…was it spa?…that was illegal AND he crowded lewis of the track…penalty? I think not

        sorry if you bored of hearing how the stewards have it in for lewis…maybe you should take it up with them though, cos something sure stinks here

        • David-A (@david-a) said on 28th October 2011, 14:35

          I though the rules prevented you from making more than 1 move to block some one from over taking…nothing about weaving

          More than one move to block is considered weaving.

        • David-A (@david-a) said on 28th October 2011, 14:41

          At Malaysia 2010 with Petrov, his explanation was that he was “breaking the tow”. He wasn’t punished. This year, he weaved to block Alonso and was punished (much like FA being penalised for hitting LH).

          At Monza, Schumacher made the legal onemove, and regained the racing line. No penalty was applied, which was correct, although the FIA have since clarified the rules about leaving room when you regain the racing line.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 15:06

          Regarding Malaysia, Hamilton was specifically told last year not to repeat his weaving.

          But he did it again this year, and he got a penalty. How can anyone possibly have a problem with that?

          What Schumacher did at Monza (not Spa) was not the same. Hamilton deviated from the racing line twice to defend his position, Schumacher did so once. That’s why Hamilton got a penalty and Schumacher didn’t. All of which I explained at the time.

          • The Edge (@the-edge) said on 28th October 2011, 15:36

            beg your pardon…i did mean MONZA

            and for the record schue didn’t get a penalty cos the stewards denied seeing it

            http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/09/14/fia-steward-daly-schumacher-penalty/

            your words not mine

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 15:49

            @the-edge There are three stewards in the room, not one, plus the race director. It’s by no means a given that Schumacher would have had a penalty under some different circumstances.

            Besides which, this is a red herring as far as the Hamilton argument goes.

            We’re talking about the difference between making two moves away from the racing line versus making one. Schumacher’s driving at Monza was contentious because some felt he did not give Hamilton sufficient room after making one move. But he clearly never made two moves – that was never an issue – and that’s what Hamilton was penalised for in Malaysia.

  10. JK (@justingt5) said on 28th October 2011, 9:18

    not happy but thats the rules i suppose they just want ot be the fastest!!

  11. Joe Szpara said on 28th October 2011, 9:19

    All you Lewis Hamilton fans should be quiet about this penalty.

    If he didn’t slow down enough as EVERY other driver did excluding Perez then thats his fault. The rule is there for a reason.

    Only himself to blame..

    • Theoddkiwi (@theoddkiwi) said on 28th October 2011, 9:28

      EVERY other driver did excluding Perez. Well then thats not EVERY other driver then is it?

      That assumes EVERY other driver was on track and EVERY other driver was going past that area at the time, and EVERY other driver were on a fast lap.

      • HxCas (@hxcas) said on 28th October 2011, 9:42

        Perez also got a penalty, and there were marshalls very near the track for goodness sake, a penalty for actually speeding up in those conditions is fully deserved for both drivers.
        Why is it so hard for Hamilton fans to accept that he sometimes just makes mistakes?

  12. ngwe23 (@realstig) said on 28th October 2011, 9:19

    Why wasn’t Vettel given a penalty 2 weeks ago for ignoring a blatant rule. Seems to me that more drivers are equal than others.

    • raymondu999 (@raymondu999) said on 28th October 2011, 9:23

      It’s a safety thing – Lewis and Sergio were potentially endangering marshalls

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 9:23

      @realstig What would that be then?

      • ngwe23 (@realstig) said on 28th October 2011, 9:32

        Vettel cut a corner in Korea during qualy. This after having been explicitly warned against doing so.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 9:34

          @realstig The stewards investigated it, they concluded no advantage was gained and no breach of the rules occurred.

          There was clearly no safety risk in what he did, unlike what Hamilton and Perez did today.

          • sato113 (@sato113) said on 28th October 2011, 9:56

            if no advantage was gained, why did he do it?

          • ngwe23 (@realstig) said on 28th October 2011, 10:13

            …and LH didn’t get any advantage from what he did today

          • Of course there was an advantage gained, he wouldn’t have made it back to the pits in time to set his final lap if he didn’t cut the course.

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 28th October 2011, 11:41

            That not what the stewards said and the times from qualifying seem to support them.

            @realstig Even if that were true the point is that what Hamilton and Perez did was a clear safety risk. What they are expected to do is specifically written down in the international sporting code.

        • TimG (@timg) said on 28th October 2011, 10:22

          Advantage or otherwise, Lewis failed to slow down with marshalls in close proximity to the track…

          • The Edge (@the-edge) said on 28th October 2011, 15:23

            i think @realstig ‘s point was that whether an advantage was gained or not, he did it for a reason

            that reason was because he didn’t think he would have time to get back to the pits to do another lap if he didn’t

            therefore he broke the rules even if he didn’t have to

            not

            he didn’t break the rules cos no advantage was gained

            that is unless you think he just wanted to destroy his tyres, as Brundle pointed out…driving through there was akin to driving over central reservation chevrons

  13. Dev (@dev) said on 28th October 2011, 9:21

    not fair on Perez, he does not deserve this dunno what must be going through his mind… ridiculous penalty.. come on he jus a kid!!!

    • TimG (@timg) said on 28th October 2011, 9:50

      He’s a professional racing driver at the highest level. Even amateurs competing at the lowest levels of club racing are required to know about yellow flags.

  14. Scribe (@scribe) said on 28th October 2011, 9:21

    Oh sodding mouth breathers! LEWIS! WILL YOU STOP IT NOW PLEASE? 50% of his bad season has been bad luck, but 50% has definatley been these burst impetuosity. Sometimes the boy does his talent no favours.

  15. sprks1 (@sprks1) said on 28th October 2011, 9:22

    Typical Hamilton and typical Hamilton fans, if he didnt break the rules he wouldnt get the penalties. These flags are there for a reason SAFTEY he has a tribute to simoncelli on his helmet, its about time Hamilton gave a bit of respect to Formula 1, its rules and safety.

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