Massa disagrees with penalty for Hamilton collision

2011 Indian Grand Prix

Felipe Massa, Ferrari, Buddh International Circuit, 2011

Massa retired after colliding with Hamilton

Felipe Massa said he shouldn’t have had a drive-through penalty following his collision with Lewis Hamilton in the Indian Grand Prix.

Massa said after the race: “I can only say I do not share the opinion of the stewards who inflicted the punishment.

“I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?

“It?s the umpteenth time that Hamilton runs into me this year and it seems it?s some sort of fatal attraction. In the past, I tried to talk to him but he did not seem to be interested in doing so.”

Ferrari believe the collision with Hamilton contributed to the suspension failure that put Massa out of the race.

Hamilton said: “I tried to overtake and I tried to come out of it because it didn’t look like he was going to give me any space, and we collided.”

The McLaren driver said he’d tried to talk to Massa before the race: “We had the one-minute silence before the start of the race and me and Felipe were standing next to each other. He hasn’t spoken to me since… a long, long time. So I made an effort, I put my arm around him and said ‘good luck for the race’.”

He added: “It’s a disappointing day I’m very, very sorry for my team. They worked hard all weekend as they always do a deserved a result.”

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333 comments on Massa disagrees with penalty for Hamilton collision

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  1. Andy Redden (@andyredden-on-f1) said on 30th October 2011, 14:19

    I think looking at the footage and seeing his helmet looking in his left mirror at least 4 times just before contact is quite damning.

    Massa’s sloppiness shown by being the only one to make the mistake of hitting the sleeping policeman and recking his suspension. Adding that making the mistake TWICE.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 14:33

      @AndyRedden-on-F1 Indeed. He knew exactly where Hamilton was and positioned his car accordingly. But Hamilton got alongside, and despite that Massa turned in as if he wasn’t there. What did he think was going to happen?

      Massa was blameless in a lot of their previous collisions this year. But not this time, and I’m glad the stewards came down hard on what was a cynical piece of driving.

      • Bleeps_and_Tweaks (@bleeps_and_tweaks) said on 30th October 2011, 15:26

        @Keith Collantine – I can’t say I really agree that Massa has been blameless on other occasions to be honest.

        I think in Suzuka he was needlessly close to Hamilton in the breaking zone for the last chicane, and that contact could have been avoided. But then again Singapore was 100% Hamilton’s fault. At Silverstone Massa was never going to get round the outside with out contact as well, so I’d say it’s closer to 50:50 really.

        I have to say I was quite glad Massa got the penalty to be honest, because there have been several occasions over the last couple of seasons where his defensive driving has been totally over the top. I can’t remember exactly the race but there was an incident with Jenson Button where there were too many moves in defending a place.

        As soon as I saw the incident today I immediately thought of the way Webber and Alonso have tussled this year in much more dramatic circumstances (Eau Rouge!!) and there has been little to no contact. If Massa had approached the situation in the same way the contact would never have happened, and we might have been treated to a longer period of battle. Instead he turned in recklessly and probably presumed the stewards would penalise Hamilton instead.

        • I agree. Massa has been forcing incidents on Hamilton for a while now (Although lewis is at fault for some). In Monaco, Massa turned in on Hamilton purposefully at the hairpin as proved by the earlier identical move by schumacher on hamilton in which hamilton showed that two cars could fit around the turn as long as one did not turn in to tight. Instead Massa turned in early.

          Then in singapore although hamilton misjudged the undercut, massa had again braked very late and turned early forcing hamilton to back off.

          Then the race (Suzuka I think…) where massa for some strange reason tried to go around dive down the outside of hamilton at a chicane where it was clear only one car could get through. Hamilton hit him but understandably did not expect him to be there.

          Massa seems to be very bitter about something and I have a feeling he is simply taking his frustrations out on Hamilton. After all Massa is not allowed to win so crashing and blaming others is surely a good excuse when he can’t blame the circuit for breaking his car. Just happens today he has blamed both…..

          • Charlie said on 30th October 2011, 23:01

            Massa could of backed out and still of stayed on track!when are people going to realise, when a car is up the inside of you, you can’t just turn in like nothing is there! Oh look, there’s a car on the inside of me, quick turn in!! Oops to late!!!

          • Dragon (@dragon) said on 30th October 2011, 23:21

            Ridiculous. Suzuka was purely Hamilton’s fault, don’t go down the whole ‘didn’t expect him to be there’ excuse. This is a race, not free practice. You don’t go weaving about the braking zone not expecting another car who was close behind to be in the area.
            India’s incident was far more Massa’s fault, hence the deserved penalty; however, it’s a strange place to attempt a pass, especially considering the volatile situation between the two drivers. Lewis should have recognised this.

          • @Dragon,

            Somehow managed to reply to the wrong post…. (it is late…)

            On another point why was it a stupid place to try a pass? Surely the corner is not very tight and it was plenty wide enough for two cars not to mention the fact that he had all but made the pass by the corner?

          • Gerry said on 31st October 2011, 13:10

            He’s still smarting about him losing the WDC to Hamilton in 2008

        • @Dragon,

          Hamilton did not weave at the suzuka chicane, he moved across to the natural line of the corner. Massa was not alongside (although obviously far enough to be hit) and schumacher tried to go around the outside at that same chicane in quali and ended up off the track!

          • Dragon (@dragon) said on 31st October 2011, 8:31

            Not a stupid place to try a pass; but certainly a questionable one if you’re Lewis Hamilton, and the driver you’re trying to pass is Felipe Massa. There are passes that require the cooperation of the other driver you’re tangling with, and I doubt we’ll ever see that if those two are involved. Massa was deservedly penalised, but the whole thing could have been avoided.
            As far as suzuka is concerned; weaving was just my exaggeration, it was indeed Hamilton moving towards the natural racing line. Except that Massa was in that space. It’s not clear Massa was trying to overtake on the outside; maybe he just had more speed into the corner, maybe he wanted a better turn in to get a better run down the start/finish straight. Point is, he was there, and it’s his bit of road.

      • infy (@infy) said on 30th October 2011, 15:27

        Lewis was equally in the fault here. He threw his car down the inside, hoping the other driver would jump out of the way to avoid conflict.

        For his move to have stuck, he needed to be ahead before the corner. Instead he was barely along side Massa’s rear wheel. If he was so far along side as you make it out to be, he would have hit Massa’s front wheel, not rear.

        Shortly after, a torro rosso was trying to overtake another car at the same corner. He backed out of it like any sane driver would.

        Had Massa not have turned in, he would have been forced to go off the track and retire. As a result, Lewis would have received a penalty and his race ruined as well.

        The smart thing to do would be to simply wait for a safer opportunity.

        • infy (@infy) said on 30th October 2011, 15:32

          With penalties like Massa’s today, I dont doubt more drivers will begin shoving their noses down the inside of corners they know they wont make passes on. They now all know that the other driver has to dive out of the way or face a penalty.

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 15:37

            Good. If drivers are going to turn into drivers who are alongside them then they should get penalties.

          • David BR (@david-br) said on 30th October 2011, 16:37

            @infy

            corners they know they wont make passes on

            But the whole point is Hamilton would have made the pass without incident had Massa taken a different line through the corner! So the pass was possible. Look carefully at Hamilton being passed and you’ll see he almost invariably gives room. He’s condemned, someties rightly, sometimes wrongly, for being ambitious in his overtaking, but it’s always seemed to me that he just ‘expects’ the same space he gives other drivers. Unconventional opinion, I know.

          • So if we regulate racing according to your points infy, it basically means that any overtaking attempt has to be complete before the next corner…. or rather just banned entirely since nothing is certain until proved.

            Hamilton has never been to clever at giving room but this is just plain silly!

            Perhaps you should go back to YouTube and check the epic 79 battle between Vileneuve and Arnoux. It’s called “racing” and it’s what we’re all here for in the first place!

          • andrewf1 (@andrewf1) said on 30th October 2011, 18:57

            @ poul i suggest you look at how beautifully hamilton and webber danced with their cars in korea for a whole sector, not just one corner – showing respect for each other, giving each other room and racing wheel to wheel.

            massa on the other hand strikes me as a very hectic defender, couple that with all the frustration he has for being alonso’s number 2 and going backwards in almost all of his races, the only result you get is someone not willing to give room or show some respect when being overtaken. and of course, especially to hamilton.

          • JCost (@jcost) said on 30th October 2011, 20:21

            C’mon! Massa was already eaten and should keep his car on the outside and try to fight back for position right after.

          • skodarap (@skodarap) said on 30th October 2011, 21:30

            @David BR

            I completely agree with you. Only Hamilton and Schumacher tend to give room when being passed, at least from what I’ve noticed recently. Just remember the pass Hamilton made on Schumacher in Monaco.

            Funny though, accident was almost the same as the one in Monaco between Massa and Hamilton, and after seeing the notification on the telly that it’s being investigated I was already pretty furious that Hamilton’s gonna get penalty again for something that’s not his fault – so seeing Massa get it was a surprise.

            Finally, a decision in support of gentleman’s racing instead of defend the defender we’ve got used to recently.

          • Charlie said on 30th October 2011, 23:11

            And that would make for a much better race!!!!!!!!!! Instead of Lewis and every other driver scared to make a move incase someone like massa turns in on him.

        • Bleeps_and_Tweaks (@bleeps_and_tweaks) said on 30th October 2011, 16:17

          @Infy – I agree with what you say in part, Hamilton placed his car and expected that Massa would give him room, but this is what I was eluding to. It’s about giving the other driver enough room, and Massa didn’t, he turned in when he clearly knew that Hamilton was there and just expected or presumed he would be in the right.

          The reason why I mentioned Alonso and Webber is because there are several examples of world class drivers going toe-to-toe without turning in on each other, and the battles we’ve been treated to are the product. If you want another example think back to Hamilton passing Button in China. Jenson could have easily carried on turning in to Turn 1 and made contact but he gave him enough room and the pass was clean (granted this was between team mates, so he may have been more cautious, but I think it would have been the same with a driver from another team).

          Also I would probably advise you to watch the footage again, because at one point Hamilton’s front wing was approaching the splitter/cockpit of Massa’s car. So the idea that he was only ever alongside the rear wheel is wrong.

          • Douglas6250 (@douglas6250) said on 30th October 2011, 17:44

            You’ve got a good point actually. In that case of the Chinese Grand Prix if Button was Massa then I guess he would have simply kept turning into the inside and wait for Hamilton to disappear.

        • matt90 (@matt90) said on 30th October 2011, 17:26

          Saying he threw the car down the inside sounds like you need to re-watch the incident. He got better drive out of the previous corner and slip-streamed Massa, pulling alongside him almost level while both drivers were still on the throttle and before either committed to turning into the corner. He actually fell back under braking/lifting for the corner, but Massa both kept his foot in more and drove across/into Hamilton.

          If you are no longer allowed to pull level with a car on a straight because the other driver is entitled to drive into you once you arrive at the corner, then I’m not sure overtaking can exist in any other way than slipstreaming or DRS.

        • Kenny (@kenny) said on 30th October 2011, 17:40

          Lewis was even with Massa when they reached the apex. Massa had three options- 1) lift and let Lewis through, 2) carry on at speed and go off, and 3) take the corner and collide with Lewis. Massa chose option 3), Lewis saw it and braked to avoid a collision, hence his front wheel hitting Massa’s back wheel. Felipe suffered major brain fade here…the only legit question is why he only got a drive through penalty…should have been a stop and go at the least.

        • @ david
          lewis would not of made the pass. look at it, he backed out of it before contact. If he remained committed he probably would of evenly banged wheels and both would of bundled their way through like they did at silverstone.

          But lewis changed his mind as he realised it was a silly place to pass. and cos of that contact was made.

        • ben sharpe said on 30th October 2011, 20:27

          *** is that guy talking about only at his rear wheel? he had the racing line, there was plenty of room for massa to move over and still get a decent run out of the but he didnt. nothing but wreckless driving

        • The move on the Torro Rosso was not even slightly the same. Hamilton was nowhere near alongside so he backed off correctly, In the massa incident He was alongside and massa put the breaks on very late in order to try to force hamilton to back off. If hamilton is at fault then every driver should be banned from overtaking anyone!

        • F1Sidewinda (@f1sidewinda) said on 31st October 2011, 8:46

          How can people keep calling this move a “dive” or saying HAM “threw” his car down the inside? Ham was faster out of the previous corner he was CRUISNG up nearly along side MAS but obviously lifted. How is that a DIVE?
          Any other two drivers on the grid could have both gone round the corner together and took the fight to the next corner look at WEB and HAM last race, look at WEB and BUT all season long making moves into corners you “SHOULDN’T” overtake round but all drivers involved took care and raced hard, even MAS, when BUT DIVED down the inside of the last chicane at Spa (now that was a dive) but MAS didn’t turn in to take his optimal line then.
          Massa has not been the same man since his big accident. I don’t think he ever will be.
          He makes a good whipping boy though.

      • Solo (@solo) said on 30th October 2011, 15:33

        Massa was blameless for the last two times nothing more. In Monaco he did the same thing he did today but unlike here he managed to fool the stewards.

        I would have been surprised if he accepted the blame. He never accepts his mistakes and he always complains.
        He has to learn that just because his car might be slightly in-frond it doesn’t mean he has the right to turn in on people. He has interpreted the rules wrong in his head thinking he can turn on people whenever his slightly in-frond and the stewards will give him justice.
        It seems the stewards started realizing his ways.
        I hope now that he learns and realizes that not all drivers will run off track to avoid getting hit by him so he can become less aggressive with his turning against drivers that try to pass him.

      • For quite some time I’ve had a feeling that when it comes to being overtaken, Massa’s driving style is similar to a sneaky football player who leaves his leg extended just a fraction of a second longer than necessary after a failed tackle, to inflict damage on the other player in frustration.

        From the outside it seems blameless and just plain unfortunate, but happening for the nth time you begin to wonder.

        It’s been the case ever since the beginning of his F1 career; I remember when he forced Montoya off the racing line (to the dusty part of the track) while having been lapped, resulting in JPM crashing out.

        He has this delicate knack for doing insidiously unsporting stuff in an unnoticed manner. Get him in a tangle with one of the most reckless pilots in the field, and you have an explosive mix.

      • Douglas6250 (@douglas6250) said on 30th October 2011, 17:40

        “I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?”

        Well…. I agree with what u say Keith. Looking into the mirror so many times, and turned in when Hamilton was already there…… I mean, the explanation ofstaying on the “ideal line” doesn’t make much sense does it, when someone else is already occupying the “ideal line”, so in terms of “What else could I do ?” , well, he would either crash into other, or use other bits of space on the track, so I don’t quite understand his disagreement really. I guess that yes one could argue that Hamilton was causing all the accidents as he was the attacker “going for it”, but I guess a lot of them could be avoided if Massa wasn’t always defending so aggresively.

      • it was a one car bend keith.

        It was a silly place to attempt a pass. He tried it again on other drivers but backed out each time cos they did EXACTLY the same as massa….take the bend.

        It was a racing incident but down to an error of judgement on the place to pass. Infact lewis even backed out of it, knowing he had made a mess of it. Which left it looking like one of them half hearted football tackles then so often ends in injury to the guy that attempted it.

        massa did not weave or make any drastic change of direction. He took the racing line into the bend as the leading driver. Any other line would of meant HE would of crashed.

        not much else to say other than its 2 drivers who have both shown a lack care/skill….or whatever in their overtaking in recent months.

        Fernando and webber have been wheel to wheel in almost every race this season without contact. How can they do it and not massa and hamilton.

        If massa gets a penalty today, then where was lewis at suzuka……?

        Too many penalties in F1 but when they are used they arent even in the slightest bit consistent. Brundle and DC didnt even consider a potential pen for massa. Quite simply cos he took the corner on the only line possible.

        • In suzuka Massa was inexplicably trying to pass on the outside of a single file chicane. Hamilton like any other driver would not have expected anyone to be there as they would more likely expect the opponent to be on the inside if anything.

          This incident was not on a single file corner as (despite what you may think) there was plenty of space for two cars around there.

          If you think this pass by hamilton was stupid then you must think Senna was the worst driver f1 has ever seen……

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 22:58

            on the outside of a single file chicane

            I don’t know where this “single file” corner idea has come from but it’s bunk. If drivers weren’t allowed to pass in a corner it’d be under yellow flags, like the Melco hairpin at Macau.

            You can pass at the chicane at Suzuka, you can pass at turn five in India.

          • Keith,

            I agree you can pass at the chicane at Suzuka (By single file, I mean it is very very narrow not that you are not allowed to pass) Webber showed that a pass is possible when he passed Lewis in qualy, but that pass was on the inside where another driver would expect a pass to be made, There was pretty much zero chance of a pass around the outside of that chicane as shown by schumacher also on hamilton in qualy.

          • If the chicane at suzuka is not a place to pass then we should never go there. Its THE place to pass.

            i didnt mean its not possible to pass at the corner he tried, i meant it wasnt very likely, highlighted by the fact he pulled out of it….which caused the incident.

            the camera dont lie. its there for everyone to see. lewis braked first cos he got the attempt wrong.

            nothing intentional or out of order, just not the right place thats all.

            as highlighted by no other pass at the corner. it was a single file corner by nature of its design.

            patience was the name of the game….

          • @q85,

            Ok show me all the passes made at the chicane at suzuka during the race? Not many at all as it is certainly not THE place to pass.

            Lewis braked first as he was braking at the correct point while massa left his breaking very late. How can that be Lewis’ fault? From what you are saying, if a driver notices another is going to hit him and so brakes to try to avoid incident then he is automatically at fault? How ridiculous!

            Massa braked late knowing Lewis was there in an attempt to dive around the outside and he failed.

          • lee,

            tell me where massa was to go?

            im not finger waving at lewis as i dont think any penalty should be given for genuine racing mistake. But it was his error, massa didnt make life easy but neither would schumi, lewis or fernando.

            on this logic if you get behind someone now the lead driver has to get out the way….thats madness.

            It was a silly place to pass and the pass was never fully on. Thats all. If massa deserved a penalty for this then lewis should of had one in suzuka.

            IMO in both cases it was poor race craft by 2 under performing drivers.

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 31st October 2011, 12:17

            where massa was to go?

            How about the vast expanse of tarmac to his right?

            Whereas Hamilton had none to his left and had already backed off to try to avoid contact.

      • Oliver said on 30th October 2011, 20:15

        Keith,
        Massa has not been entirely blameless in their previous incidents. Monaco in particular, where I think Massa was entirely responsible but got away with it.

        Hamilton has followed Massa for more than six laps at that Monaco race. He had observed Massa’s lines into corners and especially at the hairpin, the wide swing Massa took while following behind Webber.
        Hamilton then made his move, Massa saw him coming and immediately deviated from his normal line. So acute was this deviation, that Massa almost ran into Webber who was directly ahead of him.
        Despite the fact Hamilton had virtually all his wheels on the kerb, they still made contact.
        Hamilton got overtaken at the hairpin and yielded, despite the fact that he could have made it very difficult for Schumacher.
        Massa on the other hand, didn’t even leave 2 cm width. Matter of fact, he was even attempting to climb the kerbs.
        In my opinion, Massa was as guilty then as he is now.

        The fact that a driver is coming from behind, doesn’t mean he must take all responsibility for the failure of an attempted overtake.
        Remember how Button had to take to the escape road, in Australia, to avoid a massive accident with Massa?
        Lets not also forget that a certain Michael Schumacher, had all of his points wiped off from the 2009 season for doing something similar to what Massa has done repeatedly. If it was wrong to do such back then, how come massa seems to be getting away with it.

        • Alfie Widger said on 30th October 2011, 21:08

          2009 season?! Schumacher wasn’t in that season Oliver ! Are you sure you don’t mean 1997?

          • Oliver said on 30th October 2011, 22:49

            You are absolutely right. I have no idea how 2009 got in there honest. :-) Because I even remember even counting the championships from Schumacher’s 94/95 double, Hills 96 and Villineuve’s 97, as I was typing.

      • Mark (@marlarkey) said on 30th October 2011, 21:06

        Not the way I see it… massa knew he was there Hamilton was alongisde but quite clearly Hamilton backed out, Massa saw him back out… but Hamilton didn’t back out enough…

        Hamilton had the opportunity to back out of it completely as it was Massa’s corner but he kept his nose in the way…

        Since when do drivers clearly in front at a corner have to back out to let people overtake them when they’re not even alongside ?

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 21:18

          @marlarkey

          You say Massa knew Hamilton was alongside him, but that Hamilton should have backed off because he wasn’t alongside. Which is it?

          • Mark (@marlarkey) said on 30th October 2011, 22:18

            No I’m saying Hamilton DID back off – you can hear it quite clearly in the video coverage… he backed off.. Massa saw he backed off and turned in on the assumption that Hamilton was getting out of it…

            Think about it, Hamilton was almost fully alongside Massa but further along Hamilton was further back, only just alongside Massa’s rear wheels. Hamilton backed off, as you can hear… he just didn’t back off enough.

            After backing out, Hamilton stayed in (but further back). Massa reacted to Hamilton backing off by thinking he was safe to turn in and did so.

            So from Massa’s perspective he acted perfectly reasonably. If there was any blame it was Hamilton’s than Massa’s, Hamilton should either have backed off completely giving Massa room to take his line. Or he should have stayed completely alongside Massa forcing Massa out wide.

            But personally though I’d have just put it down as a racing incident. I’m not fond of all these ‘punishments’ deciding the races.

            If it is 50-50, like this one, then there should be no punishment either way… both drivers should be allowed to fume about it but neither should be punished.

            The rule is there for the obvious clear cut cases, not for 50-50 cases like this.

          • Jake (@jleigh) said on 30th October 2011, 22:22

            @Keith – I would keep a link to this article handy for when users try to claim you’re biased against Lewis like we talked about yesterday!!

        • Did you see the same incident as everyone else? Hamilton was alongside Massa all the way up to the breaking zone. Hamilton breaked for the corner (probably slightly more than usual noticing massa moving across) and massa breaked very late (probably in an attempt to force hamilton to back out).

          Massa knew he was there all the way to the point of contact to why did massa not take a wider line? You can’t take a racing line when there is another car in the way! Just like you can’t cut a corner when there is a giant bump on the inside, although again massa seems to think the track hit his car rather than him hitting the bump. Seems that massa thinks he can’t ever do anything wrong….

          • massa didnt move across, he took the bend. its a different thing. Look at it!!! not one drastic move by massa at all

            i think some of you think a driver shouldnt bother to take a corner if someone is near him.

            i dont know about you, but i like to see racing. not after you chum. the way we are going with this BS and DRS its who ever is fastest wins…..thats qualifying not racing.

            If massa is to blame for this then schumi was to blame at silverstone 1995 on that bizzare logic.

            they only gave a pen to massa cos lewis has had too many.

          • q85

            Massa took the racing line which meant he had to move across the track! I did not say he weaved.

            Lewis was already there though so instead of breaking and letting lewis through he braked late and tried to dive into the corner first so causing the incident.

            Massa was perfectly able to take the corner wide and avoid an incident but chose not to and not for the first time either. Hamilton was fully alongside up to the breaking zone.

      • shrayyef (@shrayyef) said on 30th October 2011, 22:30

        when Massa turned for the corner he was ahead of Hamilton by far and Where they touched prove that Hamilton is to blame and if Hamilton backed off he could avoid the accident.
        i think Massa could avoid the accident too if he left room for Hamilton but that mean he has to give the position away.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 22:37

          Hamilton did back off. The fact that he did and they still made contact shows he was far enough alongside to expect Massa to give him room.

          • Jake (@jleigh) said on 30th October 2011, 22:45

            Exactly! Go back 2 weeks and look at the Hamilton – Webber battle. Going into turn 7 Mark was in a similar position as Lewis was today. The difference is, Lewis respected Mark and gave him space, leading to a brilliant battle! Massa failed to show a fellow driver respect, not for the first time, left no room and instead of a great battle we have this. Very poor from Massa considering recent events in the world of Motorsport

      • pking008 (@pking008) said on 30th October 2011, 23:15

        @Keith Collantine to be honest with you, I consider Massa escapade with Hamilton at Monaco more far more blatant and cynical than today’s turning in to swipe Hamiltons nose off. He has been doing it forever more and I think the Stewards have been fooled partly because of who Hamilton is and the fact that Hamilton is the one always almost making the move. But just coming out of last weekend Korean GP where you see Hamilton and Weber dicing to the very end without contact, you can sort of see why the Steward will take a different view why there must not always be a contact when there is an overtake as long as both drivers are reasonable. I can’t think of when Massa has been reasonable this year unless when allowing Alonso to overtake him.

      • There was no logical reason for Massa to have a drive through. It should either been a racing incident with no penalty or a drive through for Lewis. It is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to get by without contact. Lewis once again put himself in a bad position and tried a move in a place that was always going to be difficult. If he is quicker what for a spot on the track that is not so risky like a DRS zone maybe.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 31st October 2011, 8:09

          It is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to get by without contact

          Says who?

          • Racing etiquette.

            So then what you are say is that you can just push people out of your way to go through?

            A touch where nobody goes off and a position is exchanged is one thing, but breaking your front wing and putting another car into a spin is another.

      • @Keith

        “Massa turned in as if he wasn’t there”

        I think that really says it all. Initially I just assumed Hamilton would get the penalty (as per usual), but upon seeing the reply it was pretty clear to see that Massa slammed the door shut violently enough to cause a collision despite Lewis backing out of it.

      • Reddoz said on 1st November 2011, 4:15

        I dont know what u guys opinion. But what i can see is.. Massa looks like purposely cause collision. I watch f1 every race, so many times i saw this kind of overtaking style (massa n hamilton), i can say its a simple but very good overtaking if hamilton can get through. For my opinion here, massa very unprofessional in this situation. He can see hamilton front wheel n front wing clearly beside him, he should try to avoid collision while try his best to defence his position from hamilton. Look at button overtook webber situation, both of them very near to each other, n looks like almost collide but they did not, bcoz they drive in very professional way. 2008 massa is very good driver but now i have to admit his performance very poor and unprofessional. So massa “I know u dislike hamilton, but dont show ur mad situation in the race!!!!” That cause yourself a trouble and ferrari team will think twice to sign ur next contract or not. Ferrari is well known to be very professional team, but u spoilt their name because u r “too following ur heart feeling when u mad!!”.

    • Hairs (@hairs) said on 30th October 2011, 15:56

      Massa shouldn’t have looked left before deciding to turn in on Lewis. He should have looked in the mirror at the tributes to two drivers who died needlessly which were on his own helmet. Instead, he launched his car at another racer’s front tyre and almost got launched into the air/climbed over the other cockpit. A disgusting display of petulance from a driver I no longer have any respect for.

      • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 30th October 2011, 16:31

        @Hairs It’s OK to have an opinion, but try to be reasonable and less provocative. It’s obvious that you’re probably going to get a reaction to that…

        • Hairs (@hairs) said on 30th October 2011, 17:06

          @damonsmedley I’m bring straightforward, not provocative, and I’m not posting in an attempt to get a reaction. Jackie Stewart talked before the race about drivers taking liberties with contract in open wheel cars. Massa went out and did exactly that. His swipe on Lewis was just as premeditated, dangerous and unacceptable as Maldonado’s

          • dam00r (@dam00r) said on 30th October 2011, 22:21

            +1

          • F1antics (@f1antics) said on 31st October 2011, 10:53

            Agreed

          • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 4th November 2011, 8:04

            @Hairs

            You’re saying it was premeditated? It was cynical, at the very worst, but to suggest it was premeditated is just having a dig at Felipe.

            Maldonado deliberately swiped Lewis in a childish act of revenge, but Massa merely turned in to the corner in the hope that Hamilton would engage his brain and realise he’s way too far back to make a move into a corner like that.

            But I suppose the best option for Felipe would be just to pull over every time Hamilton gets close to him. At least then he might have a chance of not being taken out.

        • Hairs (@hairs) said on 4th November 2011, 12:55

          @damonsmedley Pastor took a childish, dangerous, and unacceptable swipe at another driver that could have resulted in either of them, or a spectator, bring seriously injured. It was deliberate, and he should have been banned from the next racer for it. Schumacher almost put Rubens in the pitwall last year, and stared at him all the while he was doing it. He should have been banned from the next event, but at least when it was shown to him, he was genuinely repentant.

          Massa has openly admitted that he knew Hamilton was there, but he deliberately closed the door on another driver, watching him all the while, and not only is he not repentant, or reflective, given the events in Vegas, he actually blames Hamilton – who did everything he could to race fairly, and get out of the manoeuvre. I don’t allege anything. Massa said it was premeditated. It is not the first time he’s done it either.

          Look at Webber, Alonso, Button and Vettel – or even Schumacher and Petrov sometimes. They all know how to defend a position hard but fair, and when to admit the place is lost. There is none of that in Massa’s driving. He turns in on people, he puts his car in stupid positions, he can’t attack or defend cleanly. And all the time, he blames other people, the track, whatever. Massa admits this was a cynical deliberate move. He deserves all the criticism he gets.

          • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 4th November 2011, 14:02

            @Hairs

            Massa said it was premeditated.

            When? Do you have a link? I’ve not seen that quote.

            Bringing what happened in Vegas into it is extremely cruel. You must realise how horrible and serious these allegations you’re making against Felipe are. He’s trying to race. He made a mistake. Hamilton was more at fault, however, in my own and the opinion of many others.

            Massa didn’t turn in to cause an accident, he turned in (somewhat blindly) hoping Hamilton would back out. Why is everyone saying Massa should have backed out when he was ahead and going too fast to move aside and stay on the track, yet no-one seems to care that Lewis had ample opportunity to come out of the throttle and avoid an accident.

            My point is; how did Lewis expect the move to work. He was late on the brakes, on the dirty line and carrying way too much speed. Anyone who says they could have gone through the corner side-by-side must be mistaking it for a different corner. I’m not even convinced Hamilton would have made the corner even if Massa let him go.

            Felipe did nothing wrong, really. With hindsight, yes, turning in was the wrong decision as it took him out, but he took the decision that would lose him the least amount of time if it worked. Moving aside would have almost certainly meant he’d run wide and lose further positions. At least with turning in, there’s a chance Lewis will recognise the move isn’t going to work and back out of it. If Lewis was completely side-by-side with Massa, then Felipe should let him by. But he wasn’t – so anyone would assume Lewis wasn’t just going to keep his nose half-way up the inside.

            This is my opinion and my interpretation. Obviously it’s different to yours and I respect your view, but I’m also going to move on now. You can post a rebuttal and I’ll happily read it and take it on board, but I won’t argue with you over it. Agree to disagree, yes? :)

          • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 4th November 2011, 14:05

            Sorry, there’s a few typos in there, too! :(

          • Hairs (@hairs) said on 4th November 2011, 16:10

            @damonsmedley I appreciate the debate. Your points are well argued. If you listen to the 5 live chequered flag podcast, Massa says clearly that he did look over, he knew Hamilton was there, and assumed he could turn in “because I braked later than him”. Massa’s attitude is “I want that bit of track and I don’t care if there’s another car there, it’s his problem”. That’s bull, it’s bad race craft and it’s the sign of an untrustworthy driver. In Japan Massa argued Hamilton was stupid and dangerous for not seeing Massa’s car in his blind spot, when Massa wasn’t anywhere near an overtaking position, and Lewis wasn’t looking at him. Yet he then pulls a deliberate turn-in on another driver, who he is looking at, and still blames the other guy! It’s utter nonsense.

            I don’t bring up Vegas lightly, or frivolously. One weekend Massa is complaining that Lewis is “dangerous” and”going to get someone killed” when he overtakes Massa, carefully and safely, at 20 miles an hour in Singapore practice. This weekend, after a graphic and horrendous example of the consequences of open wheel cars interlocking wheels, or getting launched in the air by the shape of the nosecone, he pulls in on another car that he should know hadn’t moved out of the space he wanted to move into. He very nearly got launched. It was reckless, stupid, incompetent and unnecessary. A better driver would not have done it.

            As to “many people agree”, well, the first article was full of comments which were very anti-Massa. The day after Brundle’s column, people start thinking it’s a racing incident. Baa, go the sheep, I’m sorry to say.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXR5tjODIM&feature=related

      Why don’t we have a second look? Seems like Ham was behind and made another ham-fisted move. Honestly, who in their right mind would expect another racing driver to just stand by? Would you really expect any other driver to do so, and would you respect that driver who promptly moved over? I don’t mind if people are taking sides, but video evidence says Massa had the right of way, and Ham just made a fist of it!

      • Hairs (@hairs) said on 30th October 2011, 19:13

        From your own video, Hamilton is right alongside, has the inside line to the corner, sees Massa is going to turn in on him, and attempts to back out of it. Massa still, having watched all this, decided to drive into him.

      • matt90 (@matt90) said on 30th October 2011, 19:28

        If you can’t see (from your own video) the simple fact that Hamilton was alongside before the corner and Massa turned in regardless, then it is pointless even trying to talk about it.

      • You seem to be mistaking being behind at the point of contact and being behind at the time of the corner. They were alongside each other until hamilton breaked and massa did not. It was Massa diving around the outside rather than Hamilton diving up the inside.

        • I just chuckled so hard, my drink came out of my nose… if it is a right hand turn drivers are approaching it from left hand side of the track… So, if it is a left hand turn drivers start from the right of the track. They do it as it allows them maximum speed through a corner… incidentally that line is called apex, but you already knew that!

          • njw (@njw) said on 31st October 2011, 11:47

            Apex isn’t the line, its the corner clipping point, where the cars pass closest to the bend’s tip.

    • Reddoz said on 1st November 2011, 4:22

      Hey what i see, at the corner where massa n hamilton collided, the track is wide enough to avoid collision. When u r racing alone yes 100% u will simply follow the racing line to cut a corner. But when in overtaking situation it would be different. Massa cearly know hamilton alongside him. A good driver will not necessarily follow the racing line at corner when he know there’s another driver beside him. He should try his best to avoid collision n defences his position in professional way. Massa style is very unprofessional. Its happen a lot to other f1 driver where overtaking happened at corner, they try to avoid collision, racing line is not a reason to blame hamilton here. To me massa is on fault. He should grow up in mind. Hamilton now have change a lot, he grow up, unlike b4 where he always criticise by many. But now he change.

  2. Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 30th October 2011, 14:21

    From autosport

    Asked if he felt he was now part of a ‘feud’, Massa replied: “Maybe for him. Because all the incidents are that he touched my car. So, I didn’t do anything wrong.”

    Okay, I’m sorry mate, but “the other one crashed me” isn’t a brilliant argument.

    On the other hand, didn’t Massa want to talk to Hamilton after Singapore and LH just walked away? now to say “he’s not spoken to me in a long time” sounds ridiculous. Or maybe he tried to talk during the 1 minute silence…

    • TribalTalker (@tribaltalker) said on 30th October 2011, 14:47

      I’m not sure which race it was but I recall Massa walking up behind Hamilton when he was about to talk to the media, grabbing his shoulder and saying something in an obviously aggressive fashion. Hamilton shrugged him off, said “don’t touch me” and turned back to the interviewer, looking slightly shaken.
      Afterwards Massa claimed to have “tried to talk” to Hamilton – I now believe precisely nothing that Massa says.
      Not that I believe everything Hamilton says either… but of the two, Massa is clearly the more over-emotional and over-reactive of them.

      • zippyone (@zippyone) said on 30th October 2011, 15:02

        No Massa had tried to speak to Hamilton before that apparently, but yes Massa seems to be overeacting a bit

        • Trenthamfolk (@trenthamfolk) said on 30th October 2011, 15:43

          @zippyone I take it you’re referring to the Paddock at Singapore? Lol :-)

          Massa is becoming as whiny and as childish as the Fernando Alonso of old. Thankfully, Fernando seems to have matured a bit, and I’m starting to enjoy his racing again. Massa on the other hand?

        • judo chop (@judo-chop) said on 30th October 2011, 15:58

          It’s only apparent in Massa’s dubious recollection – and the imagination of gullible and biased F1 fans – that Hamilton ignored him. Other than the moment caught on camera did Massa actually approach Hamilton? Did Hamilton subsequently tell Massa to **** off at some moment? Or maybe, and more likely, was Hamilton too busy being dragged from interview to interview to notice any irate drivers skulking around? Of course without bothering to get Hamilton’s take critics swallow Massa’s – inconsistencies and all.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 30th October 2011, 15:43

      It really has an eary resemblance to Hamiltons reaction to getting penalized earlier in the season.

      I just hope that both will have a good look at themselves, then watch some of the great battling between Alonso, Webber, Vettel and quite a few Button moments this year and switch on that sense of where the others are.
      Its probably about confidence in youself to be able to not close the door, as it shows you know you might still get back later, or just you know you did do to the best you could there.

      • bosyber (@bosyber) said on 30th October 2011, 17:51

        On your first sentence: I was also thinking about that – and Hamilton found that wasn’t really the best reaction to getting a penalty to a collision.

        Well said about the rest too.

  3. Slr (@slr) said on 30th October 2011, 14:23

    Massa and Hamilton should show each other a bit more respect on and off track. Both are saying that other driver won’t talk to them, and neither ever accept responsibility for the collisions. For Hamilton to keep saying “he turned into me” and for Massa to say “Hamilton keeps running into me” is getting annoying.

    Also, I swear it was Alonso whom Hamilton was standing next to during the minutes silence.

  4. “tried to take the racing line what else could i do” imagine if they all did this into the first corner, took the racing line! no one would finish, what an idiot.

    • Solo (@solo) said on 30th October 2011, 15:42

      Exactly. News flash Massa buy, you can’t act like you are alone on the track when you are fighting for position.
      Is this guy even serious? Does he really thing he can just keep to the racing line when another car is by his side and the other guy just has to disappear?
      No one will ever fight side by side in a corner like that. The guy doesn’t even comprehend the rules of racing.

  5. David BR (@david-br) said on 30th October 2011, 14:25

    I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?

    Massa has the answer to his own question: go off the ideal line. He has no ‘right’ to it if he’s already lost it. And certainly when another car is there. He’s basically admitting he drove into Hamilton.

    The real question to ask himself is why he was unable to drive round the circuit without wrecking the car. The sooner Ferrari dump him, the better, he’s become an unbearable loser since ceding to Alonso. He’s also enjoyed a free ride from the stewards when a less Massa-tolerant reading of the evidence from Monaco onwards this season he’s been driving into Hamilton recklessly whenever the latter has tried passing him. His comments today confirm that impression.

  6. Magnificent Geoffrey (@magnificent-geoffrey) said on 30th October 2011, 14:26

    I knew I should’ve saved that other comment in anticipation of a dedicated article!

    “I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?

    Maybe not run into someone who was alongside you, perhaps? You did stay on the ideal line, but it was already occupied by Lewis. He couldn’t just ‘disappear’, could he? You should have left some space and if you had covered the inside and not allowed him to come level with you, you wouldn’t have been in that position in the first place!

    Ferrari believe the collision with Hamilton contributed to the suspension failure that put Massa out of the race.

    That is laughable. Everybody else managed those chicanes and kerbs just fine all weekend – Felipe ran over them twice. I really, really honestly want to like Ferrari and Felipe, but by God do they make it hard to empathise with them sometimes.

    The McLaren driver said he’d tried to talk to Massa before the race: “We had the one-minute silence before the start of the race and me and Felipe were standing next to each other. He hasn’t spoken to me since… a long, long time. So I made an effort, I put my arm around him and said ‘good luck for the race’.”

    Lewis has made some silly mistakes this year but he’s also recieved more than his fair share of criticism for it. I respect Lewis for trying to reach out and do the right thing. The fact Felipe appears to have moaned about him doing so in that post-race interview is pretty poor form in my opinion.

    When you think that these two were fighting each other for the Championship just three years ago, it’s rather embarrassing.

    • Slr (@slr) said on 30th October 2011, 14:35

      I think you could argue that Massa didn’t have anywhere else to go but off the track, which obviously isn’t ideal. I think drivers should leave space, but not go so far out of their way to do so, which is why I see this as a 50/50 racing incident.

      • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 14:37

        @slr But how was Hamilton supposed to give him more room? Massa was the only who tried to close the door on a car that was already alongside him.

        Unless Hamilton had a button on his steering wheel marked “vanish” it wasn’t going to happen.

        • Slr (@slr) said on 30th October 2011, 14:45

          Well it’s Massa who has got to give the room, but I don’t think there was much he could have done without going off the road.

          • Solo (@solo) said on 30th October 2011, 15:46

            What are you talking about? The guy had all the space in the world?
            What to you mean go off track. I don’t see the slightest danger of going of track for him.

          • Massas car has brakes just like everyone elses. If he was going too quick on the corner entry then that was his fault!

          • minnis (@minnis) said on 31st October 2011, 14:43

            So what if he had to go off road? That doesn’t give him the right to drive into Hamilton. Assuming Massa had nowhere to go other than off the track, he should have done so, avoided contact, then complained to the stewards about dangerous driving by Hamilton.

        • PJ (@pjtierney) said on 30th October 2011, 14:47

          Could he have backed out of the move a little earlier or was it plain for all to see that there was enough space for both drivers to make it through? Every time I saw the incident this morning I felt that Lewis could have backed out of it a little.

          • Andy Redden (@andyredden-on-f1) said on 30th October 2011, 14:54

            Its called driving etiquette, Massa knew he was there, and should have given room to attack later with DRS.
            Should be noted as bad as Lewis’ season has been, Massa is yet to be on the podium…

          • Of course the person trying to make a pass can back out earlier, but then we’d never get no overtakes…

            It’s upto the car infront to decide that he lost the place or not. He can give a bit of space and try to race side-by-side (Webber/Alonso Eu Rouge?), or turn in as if the cars not there.

            I cant rememebr off the top of my head of some good side-by-side racing with Massa, he seems to either completly yeild, or drive into the other car.

          • Trenthamfolk (@trenthamfolk) said on 30th October 2011, 14:57

            if it was Massa’s obligation to avoid the collision (and it was, hence the penalty) then why should Hamilton have backed out?

            I can see why is was plain for all to see if you concede that Massa is stubborn as a mule and would rather crash than let Hamilton pass.

          • Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 30th October 2011, 15:08

            of course he could. But if drivers backed off, no one would overtake.

            Massa shouldn’t have allowed him get anywhere near him in the first place. Once he opened the door, he shouldn’t have shut it altogether!

          • fatbloke said on 30th October 2011, 15:44

            if you watch it again and listen to hamilton’s engine you will hear he did backout before massa. IMO massa turned in on purpose knowing there’d be contact, and hamilton would hopefully get the penalty.

        • Ell (@ell) said on 30th October 2011, 18:26

          Agree. Massa- whether it has something to do with past incidents- turned onto Lewis. He had the line, and perfect position. Hamilton lifted off, and Massa kept coming. It reminded me of Villuenueve- Schumacher 1997, but Jacques was further forward.

      • BasCB (@bascb) said on 30th October 2011, 15:47

        You might argue that @slr, but just think back at what Massa felt when Hamilton “did not see him” and closed the door?

        I think the did not see one is a lame excuse and a lot of great drivers have shown over the years, that its the better thing to just give a bit of room, regroup and attack later on. Or have the self confidence to know you did make the best of the situation

        • TribalTalker (@tribaltalker) said on 31st October 2011, 1:29

          No driver purposefully crashes (okay, maybe B. Senna, and the old M. Schumacher), it’s much more likely that they misjudge or fail to see what’s going on.

          Massa probably thought Hamilton had backed right off. Probably. For all his faults, Massa doesn’t want another accident.

          In the case where Hamilton “did not see” Massa, the commentators (DC I think) seemed to think that revised aero on Hamilton’s car had him sitting very low – possibly restricting his view of the mirrors. Hamilton commented on poor visibility a couple of times after the incident. So maybe there’s some truth in it, or maybe Hamilton was looking the wrong way…

    • Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 30th October 2011, 14:36

      the incident with the kerb really worries me. He didn’t just attack the kerb, he went further, and touched that orange concrete thing with the wishbone! which shows he was cutting the corner by about 1 meter?

      I’m glad they didn’t change it after Massa complained. If everyone else can get through without problem, so should Massa. In the end, that thing is designed to stop the drivers cuting the corner…

      • George (@george) said on 30th October 2011, 14:44

        Well he didn’t miss it by as much as Kobayashi :P

      • PJ (@pjtierney) said on 30th October 2011, 14:53

        Exactly; the boundaries of the racetrack are defined by the white lines that go along both sides of the road. Anything you drive on beyond that is an attempt t shorten the track as much as possible by cutting chunks out of it at every turn (or lengthen it on exit to maintain a high speed).

        This is to be expected of course, hence why the edges of track that are most likely to be crossed are lined with rumble strips which essentially point out how much margin of error you have when attempting to cut/extend a corner. Anything after that is “taking it too far” and I for one am glad there’s measures in place (where safe) to deter drivers from trying to create their own racetrack :)

    • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 30th October 2011, 15:32

      Right, the first thing I’d like to say is that we are all entitled to an opinion and as long as we all stay fair and don’t attack each other or start throwing insults, I think debate is good and healthy. It keeps us passionate. We’re all friends at the end of the day. We just support different drivers and teams. This is debate over our favourite topic and it doesn’t define who we are.

      This is my interpretation. Some will agree and some will disagree, but I feel safer commenting here than anywhere else, so here goes:

      Hamilton had a look at Massa into turn 4 but pulled out of it, perhaps thinking of having a go next time around. But on the exit, for whatever reason, Massa was slow and struggled to get away as he perhaps should have. Hamilton had the momentum and a slipstream and had a peek at Massa, but I think he should have backed out at that point.

      Basically, this is how I saw the incident.

      Picture 1: Hamilton has a look down the inside of Massa. He’s simply exploring the limits and having a peek at this stage, in my opinion.

      Picture 2: With the momentum, Hamilton is now with a wheel alongside Felipe’s rear axle. This means he has to make his decision on whether the move is going to happen or not pretty soon.

      Picture 3: Hamilton is edging further alongside Massa.

      Picture 4: It looks like Hamilton’s made his decision. He’s going to try the move. But in order for it to work, he’s going to have to be very late and brave on the brakes, as it’s not a traditional overtaking spot.

      Picture 5: But Massa has braked later than Lewis, suggesting Hamilton made a half-hearted attempt at pulling off the move. The only way out of this now is for either Hamilton to brake heavily to miss the back of the Ferrari, or Massa to run wide into the run-off, as he’s already braking heavily by now.

      Picture 6: The wedge begins to close. This is bad news and there are few things that either driver could have done. In fact, I’m not sure anything they could have done would have seen them both make the corner and stay on track. Massa is taking his normal line into the corner, whilst Lewis is trying a half-hearted lunge down the inside, but he braked far too early to get properly up the inside and alert Massa of his whereabouts.

      Picture 7: This is only going to end badly now. The only way to avoid contact is for either Lewis to take to the grass on the inside, or for Felipe to stop turning in and take to the run-off on the outside. The speed at which they are travelling will not realistically allow them to go through the corner side-by-side and stay on the track. Someone has to get out of it in order for it to work.

      But why should that be Felipe? If Felipe stopped turning in and let Hamilton through, that would send a message to Lewis that all he has to do is get two wheels alongside and the position is as good as his. Massa can’t just give positions away. He’s racing for his career and honestly, I think he’s been treated harshly considering what he’s been through. Massa needs to send a message to Lewis that he’s not going to be scared off the road.

      Picture 8: Well, that was the end result. Neither driver yielded and they paid the price. To say it was more Massa’s fault than Hamilton’s, however, is harsh and in my opinion (remember, this is just my interpretation of how it happened) incorrect.

      It was, for sure, an avoidable accident, but they both could have done just as much to stop it from happening. Massa turned in and Hamilton refused to back off. They were both in the wrong to an extent.

      Furthermore, I watched the incident from the trackside camera, and you can see that Felipe is checking his mirrors before Hamilton pulls to the inside, but afterwards, he’s committed to turning into the corner and is obviously unaware of Hamilton’s proximity.

      This was, at the very worst, a racing incident.

      • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 15:40

        @damonsmedley As I said in the race report, Hamilton was drawing alongside Massa, Massa knew he was there and chose to turn in anyway.

        Hamilton couldn’t have avoided the contact (he clearly tried to and admitted as much himself). Massa could have, but didn’t. That’s why he got the penalty.

        • Solo (@solo) said on 30th October 2011, 15:49

          Then Keith to you also admit that in Monaco it was actually Maldonado’s fault and not Lewis?
          Because you can’t get more similar than that.

          • Simon999 (@simon999) said on 30th October 2011, 18:02

            Fair point, and one that had crossed my mind as well. Would be interested to know what others think?

            Monaco – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf4HZ5cpG4U

            India – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Ft4QS-jvY

            At first glance, they do look quite similar, but the only camera angle I could find for Monaco isn’t good for making comparisons.

          • The Last Pope (@the-last-pope) said on 30th October 2011, 18:26

            Ive always said it was Maldonado’s fault. He always does defend positions very simalrly to Massa. If you want to see top class, fair defensive driving watch Petrov. He is very very good in that area.

          • matt90 (@matt90) said on 30th October 2011, 19:59

            I always thought the Maldonado incident was so similar to when Hamilton passed Schumacher, only Schumacher didn’t turn in. But the camera angles weren’t great, so I assumed either the stewards were wrong or more likely could see something we couldn’t.

          • That was Maldonados fault. If you watch a frame by frame replay of the pass hamilton made on Schumacher and the one he made on maldonado they were identical (ie both of the cars positions on track) until the last moment when maldonado braked late and turned in early. Schumacher took a wider line in order to avoid collision Maldonado obviously is not as experienced so tried to cut lewis off instead.

            One pass was regarded as amazing the other was a penalty even though lewis’ move was identical on both….

        • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 30th October 2011, 15:50

          I think he knew he was there, but he probably didn’t expect Lewis to actually go through with the move. He may have thought it was just a look or a peek to scare him, but in my opinion, Felipe didn’t do anything malicious or intentional. I’m not saying Massa’s in the clear, but I certainly don’t think that was worthy of a penalty.

      • David BR (@david-br) said on 30th October 2011, 15:49

        Damon, the photos just show how much track was still available to Massa on the right when he cut into Hamilton. In his post-race comments he makes it clear that he saw Hamilton and he didn’t suggest he couldn’t have made the corner without colliding, only that he didn’t want to go off the ideal line.

        • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 30th October 2011, 16:16

          @David-BR @keithcollantine @Magnificent-Geoffrey @simon999 @Jonnyw360f1 @trenthamfolk I’ve been failing with the mentioning so I’ll mention you all so you know I’ve replied! :P

          David, I haven’t seen any post-race interviews so I can’t judge. I’ll have to wait until someone uploads them to YouTube, but until then, I’m probably not well prepared to enter into a deep debate. :)

          Keith, I’ve replied above.

          Mag, ” ”

          Simon, replied below.

          Jonny, thanks! But I think the Singapore penalty was more down to the fact it was entirely Hamilton’s fault.

          Trent, I don’t think he crashed deliberately. Massa wouldn’t risk his own race and a retirement just to prove a point. I honestly think he thought he was clear. Or maybe he assumed Hamilton was going to lift. I don’t know and we never will know!

      • Magnificent Geoffrey (@magnificent-geoffrey) said on 30th October 2011, 15:49

        @Damonsmedley

        Furthermore, I watched the incident from the trackside camera, and you can see that Felipe is checking his mirrors before Hamilton pulls to the inside, but afterwards, he’s committed to turning into the corner and is obviously unaware of Hamilton’s proximity.

        Thank you. With one sentence, you’ve managed to sum up why Massa was the one who deserved the penalty.

      • Simon999 (@simon999) said on 30th October 2011, 15:49

        What’s with this perception of Hamilton “scaring people off the road”? He attempted an overtake and successfully got down the inside of Massa as they approached the corner. No scare tactics.

        The way I see it, there are two possibilities here:

        1.) As you suggest, Massa didn’t realise how close Hamilton was to him as he turned into the corner. This would swing things towards a racing incident.

        2.) Massa did have an idea of where Hamilton was as they approached the corner, which certainly justfies a penality. It was impossible for him to take the racing line and not hit Hamilton, therefore he should have taken a different line. The fact that might have resulted in him having to go wide round the corner is irrelevant – you can’t turn into another driver when you know they are alongside you and have the inside line.

        I doubt even the stewards would have known for certain which scenario actually took place, but it seems they felt the evidence pointed towards the latter.

        • damonsmedley (@damonsmedley) said on 30th October 2011, 16:08

          But he wouldn’t have just had to take a different line, he’d most likely have had to go off the track and risk having an accident. That’s not how it should be. In my opinion, of course.

          • bosyber (@bosyber) said on 30th October 2011, 16:25

            But now he instead steered in and sort of guaranteed a collision, didn’t he? He risked it bc. he wanted to not lose the position at a point where HAM could hardly back out more than he did.

          • zvoni (@zvoni) said on 30th October 2011, 17:05

            How persistent!!! Would you please care to look how wide the track is to the right of Massa? Do you possibly remember Hamilton and Webber driving through the Korean series of S-es just two weeks ago? Why Webber, who was at the beginning of the clash on the ideal line and Hamilton sneaked inside, did not feel entitled to revert to the ideal line!
            And besides, what you consider halfhearted attempt because of earlier braking is due to two things. First, Hamilton knew what he might expect form Massa. Second, having inside line you HAVE to break early!

      • jonnyw360f1 (@jonnyw360f1) said on 30th October 2011, 15:52

        I agree with @damonsmedley in that it was a racing incident, and that both drivers were equally at fault. However, the fact that Lewis had to pit for repairs made the decision for the stewards: they had to give Massa a penalty in order that they were both equally impeded by the incident, and that is exactly what they did at Singapore, albeit to the other driver.

        • bosyber (@bosyber) said on 30th October 2011, 16:29

          That is an interesting point of view, and I think I might have said something like that in Singapore. But I do wonder if it is entirely right for a penalty to be based on the result, regardless of the action.

          I suppose that being careless when it doesn’t result in harm, means a close call and lucky escape also in most of our justice systems, while being clumsy causing great harm could result in punishment.

          • bosyber (@bosyber) said on 30th October 2011, 16:31

            Hm, a correction/addition: Of course, here and in Singapore, the penalty given wasn’t regardless of the action, but rather bc. the stewards found the wore course of action was chosen.

      • Trenthamfolk (@trenthamfolk) said on 30th October 2011, 15:57

        @damonsmedley Thanks for the pictures, and an interesting read! I have to side with Keith on this one. There was one driver that could have avoided the incident, and that driver was Massa.

        I can understand why he, and you, feel that he shouldn’t have had too (this is a competitive sport after all) but it doesn’t justify running another car off the road. Crashing to prove a point (i.e. on purpose) is Flavio Briatore/Piquet Jnr territory!

      • Oliver said on 30th October 2011, 20:10

        @Damonsmedley, your attempt at describing events using pictures gets it a bit wrong.

        First of all, after Massa lost traction into that straight, Hamilton started closing in. Hamilton got such a good tow that it made an otherwise, non overtaking zone, possible to overtake.

        Now as Hamilton got alongside Massa, both their front wheels about parallel, you could even hear Brundle or Coulthard comment that he has drawn level, Massa saw Hamilton and decided to lift off his brakes to be marginally ahead. Hamilton was already there haven taken his line at that point. Massa then turned into Hamilton, expecting him to disappear?

      • Franton said on 30th October 2011, 20:20

        You are indeed entitled to your own opinions. You are NOT entitled to your own facts. All you’ve done is cherry picked a few pictures to back up your own opinion as fact.

        The real fact is simply that we do not have all the information: just the tv camera shots. We don’t have the respective car telemetry data for throttle and steering positions plus the GPS tracking data that the FIA has access to. Without those, you can’t draw a proper conclusion from what we see.

        We however can INFER a few things from what we see, such as Massa glancing left and right into his mirrors. That simple piece of video shows quite clearly that he KNEW that Hamilton was close. The view showing him continually looking at his left hand mirror infers that he KNEW he was there … and he turned in anyway.

        It’s hardly conclusive, but i’m with Keith on this one. This was a good call by the stewards. However my opinion is Massa should have been black flagged for that. It was a stupidly dangerous manoeuvre on his part, less than a fortnight after the shocking deaths of two motor racing greats. A sharp penalty should have made the FIA’s position very clear and they fudged that.

      • At which point did you actually see Lewis’ “Lunge down the inside”? In every replay I have seen he was already alongside going in to the breaking zone and it was Massa making the lunge (hence being in front at the time of collision). A lunge would mean that Lewis would have braked later than Massa, which was clearly not the case.

    • does know one remeber at one of the street circuits where hamilton turned in on webber??? webber was no were near as alongside as ham on massa but ham got the penalty and like in thiks case rightly so as you just dont turn in on someone

      • also if massa went it bit slower round the corner could have left ham room and made the corner, we see all the time drivers missing the apex by a cars width and making the corner, if massa cant do this then he should race trains.

      • Oliver said on 30th October 2011, 20:14

        Hamilton didn’t turn in on Webber. Webber dived down the inside of Hamilton forcing him wide. Webbers trajectory was taking him straight on.. and it was Singapore

  7. Tyson Evans (@bobtehblob) said on 30th October 2011, 14:26

    I’m really torn on this one. I still cant decided who’s fault it was (if anyone’s). Was a bit of an all or nothing challenge from Hamilton. Though Massa probably could have given him a little more space.

    Though I will say what possesses Hamilton when he gets near Massa? Massa must have nightmares about Mclaren chasing him in his sleep! It’s like he feels he needs to pass him instantly or something. He’d barely been on him for half a lap, and he try’s a really brave move. In a section of track, where only one car is ever going to make it through.

    I’m not saying it’s his fault. He just needs to drive smarter. If he had of just waited another half of lap he probably would have passed him under DRS with little effort. Though instead he takes a massive risky dive, that once again ends up compromising his race.

    Doesn’t matter how fast you are. If you keep on crashing into everyone you aren’t going to get anywhere…

    • drmouse (@drmouse) said on 31st October 2011, 12:37

      Though Massa probably could have given him a little more space

      Massa knew Hammy was there, and turned in anyway. He as much as admitted it in post race interviews, and replays show this quite clearly. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was intending to force Hamilton to back off, rather than intending to crash, but he still caused an avoidable collision. He had the option of running a wider line, there was plenty of space.

  8. F1fanNL (@) said on 30th October 2011, 14:32

    Well Massa, you’re entitled to your opinion.

    But you would be wrong. You can’t crowd another race car off the track, especially when that car has the inside line to a corner.

    Totally Massa’s fault this time. If anything the punishment was too little. I find it wrong to see someone cause an incident, get a penalty and then still be out well ahead of the other driver who’s been hurt the most by the incident. In the end it doesn’t matter as Massa kissed another one of his favorite curbs but still, I think a penalty should be equal to or greater than the delay the incident has caused to the receiving driver.

    • Franton said on 30th October 2011, 20:23

      As I said earlier, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Everyone is NOT entitled to their own “facts”.

      • F1fanNL (@) said on 30th October 2011, 22:11

        Please elaborate.

        Am I wrong when I say a driver isn’t allowed to crowd another driver off the track?

  9. sumedh said on 30th October 2011, 14:40

    I want to make a compilation of where all Massa and Hamilton clashed this year. I remember Monaco, Singapore (qualifying and race), Suzuka (minor) and India.

    Where else did they collide?

  10. George (@george) said on 30th October 2011, 14:40

    Ferrari believe the collision with Hamilton contributed to the suspension failure that put Massa out of the race.

    I see. I suppose Hamilton ran into him in qualifying too?

  11. tmax (@tmax) said on 30th October 2011, 14:46

    Massa might be thinking the World is Flat… we can’t help that.

    There No question. It was Massa’s Fault. He completely turned his head and looked at Lewis car before that move. He should not say he never saw him. Racers are supposed to drive the car and not just stay on racing line. Simply staying in racing line is called as formation lap or procession.

    I cant believe he could not graciously accept the mistake. I agree he was at the receiving end is a couple of races earlier but definitely not this time. I am sure Stephano is not dumb enough to nod to his argument.

    It more and more looks like his 2013 drive is surely a Non-Ferrari one.

  12. Dave_F1 said on 30th October 2011, 14:48

    I think the penalty was a little unfair because like Brundle said a lap or 2 before, That section is all single file & as we have seen time & time again all weekend if you go into that corner even slightly off the normal line you go off track.
    There is no room for 2 cars through that section & had Massa left Lewis room he’d have ended up off the track like many others did over the weekend at that corner.

    Something which is a worry about the suspension is that I saw others drivers in other cars hit those orange kerbs like massa did & there suepsnion didn’t fail. Kobayashi for instance launched his car over it a few times on Friday without damage.

    Looking on a positive side for Massa, His pace was very good all weekend & before the collision with Lewis he wasn’t really dropping back from Alonso.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 14:57

      That section is all single file…There is no room for 2 cars through that section

      I don’t buy any of this. Any car can pass on any corner at any track if they’re sufficiently alongside. Which Hamilton was here.

      • Nigelb said on 30th October 2011, 15:15

        >Any car can pass on any corner at any track if they’re sufficiently alongside. Which Hamilton was here.<

        +1

        And to give the whole thing a little more context, take another look at the race start, and see how much room Hamilton gave Massa into the first corner.

      • infy (@infy) said on 30th October 2011, 15:16

        He wasnt. He hit the rear tire, not the front.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 15:22

          Watch the replay again and note how far Hamilton was alongside before Massa (who knew where he was) decided to turn in anyway.

          This was not a repeat of Monaco. That’s why Massa deserved the penalty.

          • cduk_mugello (@cduk_mugello) said on 30th October 2011, 17:51

            @KeithCollantine Too much is being made of Massa looking in his mirrors.

            In Belgium and Japan Hamilton swiped straight across another driver, yet claimed he didn’t see them. No penalties were given.

            From now on, and to avoid penalties, should drivers just claim ignorance and not look in their mirrors?

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 30th October 2011, 17:53

            @cduk_mugello

            In this case I don’t think it makes a difference – you could tell from how Massa positioned his car he knew Hamilton was there.

        • Because he tried to back out of it when he saw Massa was going to take the normal racing line.

      • BRAVO! There’s nothing else to it and I wish it could end here!

      • KeeleyObsessed (@keeleyobsessed) said on 31st October 2011, 8:26

        @Keith-Collantine Hamilton was not alongside Massa by any sense of the word. A penalty on Hamilton would have been too harsh, but Hamilton was never alongside Massa. If they had been, Hamilton would have been hit on his front wheel, and would have easily seen Hamilton coming, and my argument would be different.

        Has anyone considered that when Massa was looking towards Hamilton, that he did not see Hamilton and was making sure he could turn into the apex of the corner? Or do we all think Massa is a complete idiot behind the wheel and will stick to his stereotype of crashing into Hamilton?

        He might be controversial, but he’s still got good morals..

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 31st October 2011, 8:36

          @KeeleyObsessed

          Has anyone considered that when Massa was looking towards Hamilton, that he did not see Hamilton

          As I’ve already said several times, from the way Massa moved his car off-line to defend it’s clear he had a good idea where Hamilton’s car was. Yet he chose to turn in anyway.

          This was not an act of ‘idiocy’ but cynicism. An attempt to intimidate Hamilton out of a legitimate passing move.

          Hamilton, to his credit, did what he could to avoid contact but Massa’s driving had made it inevitable. That’s why Massa got a penalty.

    • craig-o (@craig-o) said on 30th October 2011, 21:06

      If that’s the case, Monaco is single file. The WHOLE track is more narrow than that.

      We’ve seen overtaking there, so we can at that section in India too.

      My view is that it’s simply a racing incident, nothing more.

  13. Trenthamfolk (@trenthamfolk) said on 30th October 2011, 14:50

    “Massa disagrees with penalty for Hamilton collision”

    Of ‘course’ he does. The guy is starting to get very, very irritating. My reasons for thinking this are thus:

    1) Today, he looked in his mirrors four times, then deliberately turned in.
    2) He expects everyone else to yield for him, but refuses to yield for anyone else.
    3) He claims the moral high ground, even after his disgraceful and needlessly provocative display in the paddock at Singapore
    4) He has been openly instructed to ‘destroy Hamilton’s races’ and keeps on having questionable incidents… surprise surprise.
    5) He has no problem with blatantly cheating when his team instructs him to do so. Fernado is faster than you…
    6) He demands the stewards get tough, but whines like a child when they penalize him for causing avoidable incidents.
    7) He gives (the mouth) it all the time, but clearly can’t take it!

    Shut up Massa, and get back to scrubbing Alonso’s motor home…

  14. scuderia_fan85 (@scuderia_fan85) said on 30th October 2011, 14:53

    Felipe did everything right. Lewis didnt try in the least try and back out. he would not of made the pass. how can u penalise a driver for staying on the racing line? Felipe should of went wide to let Lewis pass…??? they are racing. if Lewis had gotten past, the angle to the racing line he would of had to take would of made it awkward for both cars on the exit because Lewis would of been too slow…WRONG stewards!

    • PJ (@pjtierney) said on 30th October 2011, 14:57

      There was enough room in my opinion for both to get through without having to go single file. For that to happen Lewis would have had to back off a little and Felipe would’ve had to widen his racing line a tad, though that would have put Lewis on the inside for turns 6/7 which can’t be taken side-by-side, which is what I think Massa was trying to avoid.

      • bosyber (@bosyber) said on 30th October 2011, 15:08

        That’s pretty well said; both might have been able to do a bit more to avoid it, but Massa was the one who turned in knowing that HAM was there; HAM says he was already breaking hard at that point, but he could only go off track to avoid it when Massa steered in; hence, Massa was most to blame here. The type of reasoning Massa uses here didn’t convince in the case of Spa with HAM vs. KOB, where it was concluded that HAM should have steered clear of KOB, and it has a similar problem here.

        Those two really need to put it past them, and from reactions afterwards, Massa is the one who seems to be more frustrated with it (and I doubt it is just bc. of him being the injured party for most of the incidents), hence he has the most reason to get over it.

    • Trenthamfolk (@trenthamfolk) said on 30th October 2011, 15:01

      @scuderia_fan85 No. Massa was in the wrong and received the penalty accordingly.

      Whilst they have done in the past, Ferrari can no longer make up the rules of F1 as they go along. Move on.

      • scuderia_fan85 (@scuderia_fan85) said on 30th October 2011, 15:49

        same thing last year Singapore GP between Webber and Lewis; Lewis had the racing line and almost half way past Webber, they collided. same exact thing in the race…WRONG stewards! u cant penalise a driver on the correct line, the racing line. Lewis shouldnt of been trying to undertake Felipe there..poor judgement on Lewis’ part

    • brxtr (@broxter) said on 30th October 2011, 15:10

      @scuderia_fan85 Lewis didn’t appear to try and back out because there was nowhere to go; Massa left him absolute no room (his car is aiming for the apex before the collision). Maybe Lewis could have slammed his brakes and lost all momentum but that goes against a driver’s millisecond instinct.

    • minnis (@minnis) said on 30th October 2011, 23:13

      Sorry, I didn’t realise you are obviously more informed than all the stewards and many of the fans on this site, including Keith who runs f1fanatic. And as Ferrari said that Massa’s suspension damage was in fact caused by Hamilton and not Massa running over the kerbs too violently, i’m sure that you will therefore have evidence of that too. Because obviously Hamilton had run into Massa during practise too. Please inform us – are you, infact, a world class racing driver who has so much experience you are suitably qualified to overrule the stewards or, as your name suggests, a ferrari fan who has no idea who is in the right or wrong, just wants to support ferrari?

      On another note, at least Hamilton owns up when he is in the wrong. Does your precious ferrari ever do this? No. While I support Hamilton, I can at least admit when he is in the wrong, like he can. When Massa broke his suspension for the first time, it was the Kerb’s fault. None of the other 23 drivers had a problem with it.
      After the collision, the stewards penalised Massa. Many of the fans agree with this. Massa, on the other hand, blames hamilton.
      Massa runs over the kerbs AGAIN, and breaks his suspension for the second time. Not only is this apparently not Massa’s fault, but aparantly it’s not even the Kerb this time, it’s now Hamilton.

      So, if we are to listen purely to Ferrari, Massa can do no wrong. This is clearly not the case. Ferrari have a history of backing one driver, and Massa must only be staying with ferrari because no other team will have him. I seriously cannot believe this guy is still in formula one. Get out now and make room for a decent driver!

      • minnis (@minnis) said on 30th October 2011, 23:33

        Lewis didnt try in the least try and back out.

        Actually, I think you’ll find he did. From being nearly alongside Massa at one point, Hamilton backed out enough to touch the rear of Massa’s car. But obviously, i’m sure you deny this.

        how can u penalise a driver for staying on the racing line?

        Simply because racing is not as black and white as that. Take, for example, Massa and Hamilton coming together at singapore this year. Hamilton was on the racing line. Now i’m sure you, without taking a look at the evidence, will believe Hamilton was in the wrong, because in your eyes Massa can do no wrong. In this case, Hamilton was at fault, because he was ran into Massa. Not all incidents are as black and white as “the guy behind was at fault”.

    • djdaveyp85 (@djdaveyp87) said on 30th October 2011, 23:37

      I think the clue is in his username ———> @scuderia_fan85

    • You are aware that hamiltons pass attempt was normal racing practice ie. to get alongside enough going into the corner so as to force the opposing driver to take a wide line and hence compromise their line?

      Lewis’s move was textbook racing, massa did the same on the first corner to lewis but lewis took the wide line instead of taking the racing line! I assume you think Lewis should have turned in and hit Massa on that first corner as massa should have backed off?

      • Oliver said on 31st October 2011, 10:12

        Exactly.
        Most people don’t wan to admit to the prejudice.
        I keep saying it. Hamilton is hated more because he is black than because he is successful.
        He is in a predominantly white only sport, he immediately stands out. Every single action is scrutinized to find flaws. Every single blemish is over amplified.
        Even lots of British folks are ready to ditch him, as they had another more traditional world champion.
        He is fighting a losing battle unfortunately.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 31st October 2011, 10:22

          I think you diminish the seriousness of the wider problem of racism by making a knee-jerk assumption that it has a significant role in how people view Lewis Hamilton.

          The only person here making a distinction on grounds of race is you.

          And I think it’s downright cowardly not to specify who you are aiming these very serious charges at.

          • pking008 (@pking008) said on 31st October 2011, 12:15

            @Keith Collantine Hey Keith, i think you want to calm down a bit on @Oliver. i know some of us get a bit carried away sometimes in the defence of our fav driver. Also this is perhaps not the best forum to trash the issue of possible racism against Lewis and I understand that but look a lot of us believe racism plays a huge role in how Hamilton is viewed and treated. Now, that is not what can be easily proven but trust me, it is there. Even the man Hamilton himself believe there is racism in how he is treated otherwise he would never have made that ALi G analogy. He may have apologized for it out of pressure to be PC by the team but the dude himself feels his race is affecting the outcome of his racing. hehe

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 31st October 2011, 12:29

            I would not take Hamilton quoting a joke by Ali G which he later apologised for as anything other than him blowing off steam after a frustrating race.

            I say again, if you’re going to make an accusation about something as serious as racism you should say who has done it and what they have done. Neither of you have done either of these things.

            Racism is a serious matter and you and Oliver should not treat it so lightly.

          • pking008 (@pking008) said on 31st October 2011, 22:57

            @Keith, i think its a bit naive of you to ask for physical evidence of racism against Hamilton to be presented in your blog in relation to the fact that some people feel some of Hamilton’s treatment is race related. I’ve been reading yours and other F1 blogs for ages and I know alot of people feel that way.

            I can’t imagine you expect anyone to tell you who has painted his face black within F1 circles or the media (ala some Spanish fans) a few years ago before you comprehend what some people are driving at. Do you really think in the corporate world that is how racial prejudices are expressed?

            A few days ago, I made a detailed post in which I drew an analogy between how racism does not have to be overt. In other words racism is not only when I walked up to your face and shout racist abuse at you (like JT is currently being accused of) but racism could also occur “through action or inaction” of people in any organisation with the objective of achieving a desired or particular result. I also mentioned the type of racism that was highlighted by Sir Williams MAcPherson after the Stephen Lawrence murder in London some years ago. It is called “institutional racism”. Funny enough, I did not seems to have seen that particular post I made and i’m assuming you censored it which I didnt complain about because I felt it was prolly best to leave that subject outta here but you asked me a direct question and I think its only right to elaborate on it.

            So please dont ask for physical evidence of racism because while you might get that from any tom dick or harry on the street corner or in a stadium, that unfortunately is not how racism plays out in the corporate world. At least even you will not disagree that racism doesnt exist in the corporate world but how often do you see it? Virtually never.

            Side note: I disagree with you that the Ali G analogy is not relevant. Just because Hamilton apologized for it does not take away the message intended to be conveyed.

            You can disagree with me but please don’t censor this.

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 1st November 2011, 10:31

            As I’ve already said, genuine racism is something that should be taken very seriously.

            There is nothing in your increasingly verbose comments that suggests that is actually the case here.

            All you are doing is playing the race card in a feeble attempt to make excuses for a driver who has got himself into trouble several times this year. I think that’s very cynical, and an insult to people who have genuinely been victims of racism.

          • pking008 (@pking008) said on 1st November 2011, 22:08

            @Keith Collantine, is it the verbose element of my post that is causing you problems or the fact that i’ve made a perfectly valid point that racism doesn’t have to be overt especially in the corporate world? which part of that are you struggling with that you are calling me cynical and pulling a race card?

            no one is saying all Hamilton’s problems are only because of his race but people including myself have wondered aloud a few times which we are perfectly entitled to. i think you are feeling a bit too self-righteous here and its not called for.

  15. Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 30th October 2011, 14:56

    maybe Rob Smedley told Massa to “destroy Hamilton’s race”, hehe!

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