Massa “never gives you room” – Hamilton

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In the round-up: Lewis Hamilton discusses his run-ins with Felipe Massa in 2011.

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Hamilton on new McLaren, Massa and fighting Button for world title (James Allen)

“We often found ourselves close together and [Felipe] Massa is a difficult driver to pass because he never gives you any room. But it’s not something to over-dramatise. I have nothing against him.”

BBC Radio 5 Live on Twitter

“I am delighted to welcome James Allen to the 5 Live F1 team!”

Pippa Mann: ‘The big thing in a crash is to relax’ (The Independent)

“There is no reason why a woman can’t race in Formula 1. You have to be incredibly fit but you have to be very fit to race IndyCars. In Formula 1, because they have power steering, the steering weight, in terms of sheer brute strength, is actually fairly light. The IndyCar steering weight is pretty heavy because there is no power steering. When I drove a Formula 1 simulator I was shocked at how light the wheel felt.”

Kimi Raikkonen: “It will be nice to get back to racing” (Lotus)

“Sometimes you hear some nonsense and sometimes you hear nice things. The main thing is that coming back is what I wanted and I have a good opportunity with the team so I’m happy.”

Schumacher: Mercedes just needs a small step (GP Update)

“I’m sure Mercedes and I will be successful. We just need another small step and then we can make it to the top.”

Kingfisher Airlines in default, a non-performing asset: SBI (The Times of India)

“State Bank of India, cash-strapped Kingfisher Airlines’ largest creditor, has called the Vijay Mallya-led air carrier a non-performing asset.”

Why politics will take centre stage in F1 2012 (Autosport, subscription required)

“Concorde permits teams to make preparations for a breakaway series from January 1, although, saliently, they are prohibited from making any public statement to this effect until after the finale of the 2012 world championship, save for responding to direct media enquiries from July 1, 2012 onwards.”

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Comment of the day

Chalky on the dilemma faced by drivers like Sebastien Buemi:

He’ll have to be careful he doesn’t end up with a Pedro de la Rosa type of career too if Mark Webber stays or is replaced by someone else.

Part you envies F1 drivers. But then imagine you get to F1, and you find that no matter how hard you try you are always that small percentage off being spectacular.

What do you do? Keep going blindly hoping that you’ll get sponsorship to keep you in F1 or do you resign to the fact that you’ll have to go into some other category.
Or drive like a madman and wait to get lucky in a FW14B.

Only a few will ever be spectacular, but Red Bull are a top team and should rightly be only picking top drivers.
Chalky

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132 comments on “Massa “never gives you room” – Hamilton”

  1. I have to say when I was watching the season review dvd, I indeed felt Massa gives any space. He needs to learn he’s not the fastest driver (by far).

    1. *doesn’t* give any space that is

    2. Is how fast he is relevant?

    3. He needs to learn he’s not the fastest driver (by far).

      If he has a position, then he has the right to defend that position. The only time he is obligated to move over and let a faster car through is when he is being lapped.

      1. The only time he is obligated to move over and let a faster car through is when he’s being lapped

        Or when fernando alonso is behind

        1. hahaha, good one.

      2. True enough, you do not have to give up a position. But in the same way that its often faster for a car being lapped, or to let a much faster car by instead of fighting, it often makes sense to consider weather keeping the position at all cost is the best thing to do to finish the race in a good positoin.

        Maybe Massa is too desperate to hold on to those positions, knowing deep inside that he is not as good as he was at the end of 2008 and in 2009 currently.

        1. Thing is if he’s told ‘destroy his race’ then playing the long game probably doesn’t even come into his mind.

        2. I think… to give up positions willingly is rather weak…

          What if you end up racing this other driver for position?

      3. If he has a position, then he has the right to defend that position. The only time he is obligated to move over and let a faster car through is when he is being lapped.

        True, but there’s a big difference between “moving over and letting someone through” and “giving them space”. Its the difference between Massa letting Alonso through in Germany 2010, and Alonso giving Webber space through Eau Rouge, or Vettel space through Blanchimont, in 2011.

        I think what Hamilton is referring to in the article quoted above is the sort of courteous defence that the FIA referred to in the clarification a couple of days ago:

        Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

        Giving space is something a good driver does to avoid having an accident (something both Hamilton and Massa seem to struggle to appreciate). It doesn’t mean rolling over like a blue-flagged backmarker.

    4. Where did you get the dvd from ?

  2. “We often found ourselves close together and [Felipe] Massa is a difficult driver to pass because he never gives you any room”

    It’s not Felipe Massa’s job to make you look better than you are, Lewis. If you can’t get past Massa, that’s your problem – if he has the position, he has the right to defend it. You can’t just expect him to move over.

    1. Why are you suggesting that he was inferring that?

      1. Because he clearly thinks Massa does not give him enough room to let Hamilton pass. Why should Massa leave room for Hamilton do get through? That kind of defeats the purpose of defensive driving.

        1. I like potatoes
          6th January 2012, 0:59

          It’s a case of how the quote is reflected in the article or headline. I remember Massa told SPEED’s Will Buxton he thought Massa was the toughest guy to pass other than Schumacher. He said that as a compliment. So if he says here that Felipe doesn’t leave any room, then that’s essentially the same sentiment, but taken to mean something else because of the spin placed on it.

          1. it shows going round the track is not the only time drivers need to attempt to avoid a ‘spin’

          2. Massa told SPEED’s Will Buxton he thought Massa was the toughest guy to pass

            I think there should be a different name in there somewhere!

          3. Hamilton told Massa he thought Will Buxton was the toughest guy to pass

          4. Hamilton told Massa he thought Will Buxton was the toughest guy to pass Ithought it should be like this “Hamilton told Will Buxton that massa was the toughest guy to pass” ……………. and BTW “Prisoner Monkeys” true as hell………….. :-)

          5. Hamilton told Massa he thought Will Buxton was the toughest guy to pass

            I thought it should be like this “Hamilton told Will Buxton that massa was the toughest guy to pass” ……………. and BTW “Prisoner Monkeys” true as hell………….. :-)

    2. It can be interpreted as either a compliment or a gripe, but regardless, he was just stating something which is widely believed to be true.

      To suggest that Hamilton expects people to move over for him is nonsense.

      1. Indeed. Button has also said ‘he doesn’t give you any room.’ It’s not Massa’s job to make you look better than you are Jenson…

        meh

    3. PM here you do much the same as those tabloids you like to look down on by not using the full quote to highlight a point you wanted to bring out to support your view of why Hamilton is no good there.

      The full quote reads

      “We often found ourselves close together and Massa is a difficult driver to pass because he never gives you any room. But it’s not something to over-dramatize. I have nothing against him.”

      Indeed, it shows how these two have been vying closely for years now, in 2007, in 2008 and ever since, they have been more or less close on track, and have turned a bit into the rivals (for Alonso was there earlier, beat Schumacher and now has more or less grown and even offers kind words for Hamilton).

      1. I just have to wonder how much of Hamilton’s comments are meant to be diplomatic …

        1. @PrisonerMonkeys Probably none of them, but it doesn’t say anywhere that he has to be.

          1. In the BBC’s 2011 season review, Hamilton himself says he has to be diplomatic with his comments. The issue comes up when he is asked to discuss his crash with Button at the Canadian Grand Prix. The interviewer is encouraging him to speak his mind, but he just laughs and says he can’t.

          2. That is a bit of a different situation though- the reason he had to be diplomatic is that it was his team mate.

    4. @prisoner-monkeys i think hamillton is referring to when he’s making the move on massa THEN massa doesn’t give enough space, and they crash…

    5. The trouble with Lewis is that he expects people to move over whenever he risks a lunge. If people start letting him through when he tries these dangerous moves, Hamilton will learn that he can get away with it and no-one will be able to stop him without causing an accident. A few examples of Hamilton making half-hearted (or just plain stupid) overtaking attempts include the pass he made into turn 1 on Button in China, and the pass he made on Schumacher in Monaco. In both cases, he didn’t get alongside the driver at all. He just stuck his front wheel somewhere near the rear axle of the car he was trying to pass and then waited to see if they’d see him and let him go. On both occasions, it would not have been the fault of the driver ahead if they’d turned in on him, as anyone would expect that a driver would pull out of a move if they weren’t fully alongside by the turn-in point.

      And then there were his moves on Massa and Maldonado in Monaco, and then that ridiculous bit of driving in India where Massa “turned in on him”.

      1. Yeah on your example above, Schumi made the same move on Hamilton on the same place and Hamilton gave him room to pass, but of course for a Hamilton-hater like you such scenes are not referred to ….. Keep hating mate!

      2. Why you always complaine about Hamilton ?, you need to chill out men, i tell you!

      3. Hamilton’s overtaking move at China on Button, you regard that as being stupid…..hmmmm…..I believe that most fans would consider that as being……racing!

        http://vimeo.com/22777153

        If Lewis would have done the following, there would have been a outcry from certain segments, for him to be banned from the sport.

        http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xem8h4_belgium2010-vettel-crashes-into-but_auto

        1. @lewymp4 – There was an outcry because of that 2010 Belgium move. Mostly from Mclaren fans.

          1. Button and Mclaren fans were upset with Sebastian, but I hardly think that anybody would have called for him to thrown out of the sport.

      4. Ridiculous, The passes on Button and Schumacher were textbook, and I’d say that Maldonado, had he been respectful enough, would have given room the same way as Schumacher. On that last point I admit that I may be wrong though, as the camera views weren’t particularly revealing. Complaining about two very good overtakes seems bizarre though.

        And the Massa turn in bit- Hamilton was well over half way up the inside. If you turn across the front of a driver in that situation, you are going to crash. If you give the space the other driver has earned by getting that far up the inside, then that is good racing (on both parts).

        Hamilton has been dodgy on occasion this year, but you’re arguing that by using 3 examples that show the exact opposite, and another that is at least debatable.

        1. It takes two to tango, and more often than not Hamilton is one of them.

          1. Yeah and it takes a race drive to get on the podium and more often than not it isn’t Massa.

          2. -.-

            Again… Does that have anything to do with overtaking?

          3. Didn’t say he wasn’t- but the examples Damon gave were ones where Hamilton was at no fault other than that he was making passes. I’m not saying Hamilton hasn’t got himself in trouble this year. For example, I think he was less at fault than Button in Canada, but obviously putting his car there was still risky and dependent on Button seeing him (which he didn’t).

          4. Mike,
            Can’t pass a speed bump without driving over it.

    6. That’s true Prisoner Monkeys……you can’t expect Felipe to just move over……except if your Fernando Alonso!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJ6Ri7yXH4&feature=related

      1. I knew the Massa comment would cause a firestorm on here. Yes the guys are rivals, sometimes fiercely such as 2008 when fighting for the championship or this past year, when they were both trying to salvage mediocre seasons.

        But they’ve patched it up. Hamilton was once again just referring to Massa as a tough competitor. He knows people will make inferences to how he feels about it, but he didn’t say anything against Felipe outright.

    7. Yes yes yes … we get you don’t like Hamilton either as a person or as a driver.

  3. I never hugely liked or disliked James Allen’s commentary for ITV, but I know a lot of people really hated him with a passion, so it will be interesting to see what sort of reaction he gets with 5live. I think the radio format might suit him, and he obviously realises that the race audiences are going to increase next year.

    1. Thinking back I didn’t like him that much at the time, but he is much much better than Legard. So it’s quite a good decision really seeing as Croft and Edwards are not available for 5 live.

    2. I never minded him too much, you have to remember he was the guy that took over from Murray Walker, they were always going to be tough boots to fill.

      I think he’ll be good on radio, he can make dull periods more exciting, and he has great F1 knowledge.

  4. And yet again the only memory about Verstappen that pops into my mind is Brazil ’01. And he’s done it again. In a way.

  5. Lewis is right.
    Massa causes avoidable accidents. Instead of making the attempted pass difficult, he uses his car like a barrier which is stupid. The net result is he scores zero points when he could have scored much more.
    If he did that all season his net score will be zero. Of course his team will be sympathetic and blame the other driver, but the outcome in a championship will be a resounding failure.

    Schumacher got past Hamilton at the hair pin because Hamilton saw him and decided to move away to preserve his car. Schumacher made his move while being further behind than when Hamilton made his attempt on Massa.
    Hamilton had every right to block Schumacher and had the advantage, but he knew it would have been costly to the team so didn’t offer any resistance.
    A superior mind will know whent its beaten and live to challenge another day.
    Lesser minds take desperate actions to stay ahead.

    1. yeah like what hamilton did to maldonado in the same race??

      1. Hamilton made a dive up the inside. Maldonado saw what he was doing and turned in early deliberately. Same thing Massa got a penalty for later in the season.

    2. Instead of making the attempted pass difficult, he uses his car like a barrier which is stupid.

      No, that’s called defensive driving.

      1. There is a difference between defensive driving and recklessness.
        In defensive driving you block the part before the attempt is made.
        Recklessness is blocking a speedng train.
        Massa did the same thing to Button in Australia, because there was as escape route, we didn’t have a big accident.
        When you see a car already committed and alongside, there no longer exist an option for defensive driving rather an opportunity for recklessly promoting an accident.

        1. There’s always two drivers involved.

          India (or was it Korea?) is fresh in our minds and he should have given Hamilton more room. However on the whole he is no better or worse than any other driver when it comes to being stubborn.

      2. Instead of making the attempted pass difficult, he uses his car like a barrier which is stupid.

        No, that’s called defensive driving.

        No, it is stupid driving, ‘hit me or don’t pass’ there is a big difference to defensive driving. its not touring cars

        1. Oh, and it is also silly of Hamilton because he still puts his car there (closing space/ no space) knowing this.

      3. No, that’s called “causing an accident”.

    3. I think Massa could take a leaf out of his teammate’s or even Nico Rosberg’s book. If a car behind you is much faster, and battling them lap after lap will hinder your race, then it’s best to give them room to overtake you, if they can, so you don’t slow down your own race holding them off.

      Now I obviously don’t mean to say that you should never defend your position…that would be completely sterile, completely boring, ridiculous of course. Felipe’s a fiery driver, and a few moments of wisdom like that this season might have got him into the top 5 he never really troubled..

    4. I don’t see why people like to argue on this Massa-Hamilton issue so much. Both are at fualt for most of the incidents, rarely is the case when only one was responsible.

      Hamilton likes to make risky aggressive overtaking attempts, in doing so he risks being taken out of the race or getting his car damaged by the driver he is trying to overtake.

      Massa defends very aggressively and in doing so he risks having the driver trying to pass him crash into him.

      Each drive has to make his own decisions on how aggresively they overtake or defend knowing that the more aggressive they are the more risk they take on crashing into another driver or getting crashed into.

    5. Well said.

      Yes…it has been shown by top drivers/fighters like Schumacher & Hamilton in Monaco that you can fight hard BUT you can also give space & race cleanly on one of the most tightest tracks on the calendar.

      Schumacher’s dive into the hairpin and Lewis giving him the room showed the class – and vice versa into turn 1 when schumacher gave Hamilton the space – shows that these guys wont play dirty when the game is up.

      If you go back to monaco 2011 – after the race DC & Brundle admitted after seeing more footage that they did ultimately blame Maldonado for slamming the door shut too late on Lewis. And Anthony Davidson very strongly felt that massa played dirty – anyone could see that after watching the footage at the hairpin.

      Maldonado has proved himself to be a calamity and how he didnt get banned for spa is beyond me for his vicious & deliberate actions. As for massa..its been obvious for a while that he is full of resentment towards Lewis.

  6. Massa drove within the rules when it came to”blocking” hamilton..even the penalty he recieved in india was laughable..its not written in the rules that drivers should make it easy for them to be overtaken…massa&hamilton certainly belong to the same line of thinking when it comes to this..

  7. One way of looking at Felipe-Lewis collisions is to say Felipe doesn’t give you room. Another way of looking at is to say Lewis drives up the inside into a disappearing wedge. Depends on how you see it.

    Personally, I think Lewis needs to be less flamboyant when it comes to overtakes. One thing I have noticed is he never overtakes from the outside. He always goes for the inside line and hopes that he will be able to out-brake the other driver.

    1. That is exactly the reason why I think Massa shuts the door on Hamilton, because he is predictably coming down the inside. Lewis in my opinion needs to work on race craft a little more. I wonder if the lack of race craft can be attributed to being dumped in a race winning car in his debut year in F1? Perhaps other drivers are forced to learn race craft in deficient machinery to get the most out of it?

      1. You seem to be forgetting the racecraft that allowed him to Overtake Raikonnen’s Ferrari at the 1st chicane at monza from out of the blue and used great skill to compensate for carrying too much speed into the corner entry by inducing a little oversteer. Or the racecraft that allowed Hamilton to make a pass on rosberg on the outside of the chicane at Melbourne. People have short memories, Hamilton is an exciting driver, he has pulled off some excellent overtakes, most of which were at a time when overtaking was extremely difficult. He’s still one of the best overtakers in the sport, just go back a few years to see it, he’s just had one season where he’s had several clashes, some his fault, some not, some just racing incident. Some ppl are so short sighted, you’d sing his praises if the moves had come off ok. Love him or hate him, it’s far more interesting to have someone who’s not afraid to make a move.

    2. @sumedh Ah, but he did attempt it on the outside of Button in Canada, and we all know how that turned out ;)

      Fair enough, if the driver in front defends the inside line you can’t attack up there, but if the driver chooses to defend the inside line and leaves a gap then he’s entitled to go for that (providing he can actually make the apex without hitting the other driver).

      @dragoll I wouldn’t say that Lewis’ racecraft is poor, he had a bad season admittedly, but that’s about it. Plenty of montages on youtube of him showing how good a racer he is.

      1. Like sumedh said, Gap and wedge are two different things.

        1. if the driver in front defends the inside line you can’t attack up there, but if the driver chooses to defend the inside line and leaves a gap then he’s entitled to go for that

          The second “inside” is supposed to be outside. Had a bit of a brainfart. @Mike

    3. sid_prasher (@)
      8th January 2012, 10:07

      Totally agree on the first section…another thing to consider in analyzing these accidents is how many other drivers made their pass in those locations (where the 2 collided).

  8. “Concorde permits teams to make preparations for a breakaway series from January 1, although, saliently, they are prohibited from making any public statement to this effect until after the finale of the 2012 world championship, save for responding to direct media enquiries from July 1, 2012 onwards.”

    I think this is going to get a bit messy – how many journalists are going to try and lead the teams into admitting a breakaway series is in the works when there is no truth to it?

  9. Further indications Bruno Senna could drive for Williams this year:

    http://twitter.com/f1fanatic_co_uk/statuses/155201102625771520

    1. Bruno Senna at Williams?

      Sounds utterly tasteless if you ask me.

      1. Would you have thought it tasteless if Jacques Villeneuve had ever driven for Ferrari? It is almost like saying “My uncle died in a car accident driving a Ford. Therefore I will never drive a Ford car in my life!”.

        Unless of course your reasoning has nothing to do with Ayrton Senna and I have missed something else which has lead you to that conclusion…

        1. Would you have thought it tasteless if Jacques Villeneuve had ever driven for Ferrari?

          We’ll never know. But I would have to say I probably would have found it tasteless.

          Unless of course your reasoning has nothing to do with Ayrton Senna and I have missed something else which has lead you to that conclusion…

          Do you want a more pedestrian reason as to why I don’t think Senna is an appropriate choice for Williams? Here: I don’t think he’s good enough for Formula 1.

          1. My reference to there being another reason was purely acknowledging that I may have wrongly jumped to the conclusion that Ayrton Senna’s death was what made you think it was tasteless.

            Personally, I don’t feel that way – Bruno shouldn’t need to restrict his career based on what happened to Ayrton, and if his only chance of getting a drive is with Williams and he wants to then fair enough for him. If his family have any ill-feeling towards Williams still then he shouldn’t have to suffer if he doesn’t feel the same way.

        2. @dobin1000 and @prisoner-monkeys, I think that if Villeneuve had driven for Ferrari it would be a lot more tasteful than if Senna drove for Williams. I agree with PM that Senna in a Williams sounds wrong mainly because Senna and Williams is ful of bad memories. Fighting tooth and nail with them for seasons and then only driving 3 races is, obviously, tragic. Villeneuve however, was acknowledged as a driving god loved by everyone at the Maranello and Italy. So if Jacques had chosen to drive for Ferrari I think it would evoke more positive memories than Bruno in a williams (of the exact same colour!). It would be interesting to see if you agree!

          1. Of course Villeneuve and Ferrari is a much more established connection than Senna and Williams, but I would hardly say it was “full of bad memories” as you put it. When he died he was starting to drag a relatively poor car towards the front and showing exactly what he could do. He didn’t have any real animosity himself with anyone at the team or when he was racing against them for McLaren – at least nothing compared to Prost and FOCA/FIA.

            Apart from the crash (and Villenueuve was driving a Ferrari when he died) the only bad memories are from the aftermath – none of which had anything to do with Ayrton himself and were not to do with driving – which is why I don’t think it would be tasteless for Bruno to drive for the team.

            I am not saying you are wrong to think it is tasteless, but I just don’t feel the same way.

          2. Plus there is the possibility that Bruno could exorcise some of the ghosts if he manages to make a sucess of it at Williams.

      2. I don’t think it’s tasteless at all. It’s time to move on. Williams are a very different team now and I don’t agree with the Senna family in not wanting him to drive for them. Besides, Senna can’t afford to pick and choose at this stage in his career.

      3. sid_prasher (@)
        8th January 2012, 10:05

        Tasteless only if you believe that Williams were responsible in any way for the death of Ayrton…

    2. I don’t understand it who is this?

      1. Hello, this is dog.

        1. Hello, dog. This is horse.

          1. @Prisoner-Monkeys LMAO….

            Do you want a more pedestrian reason as to why I don’t think Senna is an appropriate choice for Williams? Here: I don’t think he’s good enough for Formula 1.

            I agree, poor guy is being used for teams so they can tell: “Yes we have ´Senna´ with us” and get some sponsors!!…

            He should give up on F1… Maybe Nascar will be a good option for him…

      2. He owns EBX Group which is Bruno’s biggest personel sponsor.

        Also his full name is ‘Eike Fuhrken Batista da Silva‘.

        1. Cheers for the info :D

  10. In Formula 1, because they have power steering, the steering weight, in terms of sheer brute strength, is actually fairly light. The IndyCar steering weight is pretty heavy because there is no power steering.

    So we all know that Trulli won’t be going to Indycar when he finishes with F1 then. lol

    1. Haha. Good one!

    2. he was complaining about a power steering system that gave him no feel. he said he was detached from the experiance and not able to feel the edge of grip that is so important to extract the most from the car and yourself. this suggests that the power steering was either too powerful or wasn’t transmitting enough information from the wheels. (comparing a Kia to a BMW steering feel)

      So I don’t think his problem was a lack of strength in his arms or the inability to steer properly. I doubt that driving an indy car is tougher than driving the Lotus F1 car.

      1. You speak with reason and well thought out words…

        1. Exactly. What’s with this logical thinking stuff? It’s out of place with all the hyperbole we’re used to! :D

    3. Trulli made his F1 debut in 1997. Following the driver-aides ban for 1994, power-assisted steering wasn’t permitted in F1 from 2002. If he couldn’t cope without power steering, he probably wouldn’t have made it through his first five years in F1.

      As @vjanik points out, Trulli’s complaint is about lack of feel, not that the steering is too heavy. Riccardo Patrese had a similar issue with the Williams FW14B in 1992 – he couldn’t get a feel for how much grip would be available so lost out to Nigel Mansell, who operated much more on blind faith that the car would stick when he needed it to.

  11. Fairly calm comments so far this morning considering the top story in the round-up.

    As ever it comes down to individual opinions and judgements based on drivers you support and drivers you don’t. But, at the end of the day, last season Lewis had the equipment to be ahead of Felipe in pretty much every race. He didn’t utilise the equipment and put himself in a position where he had to race against one of the better defensive drivers and regularly came to blows. Regardless of who’s fault it was, he shouldn’t have been there.

    In terms of the new Mclaren seeming “far superior to last year’s car” that may be the case, and for all the statistics of “red bull not having the same advantage as 2010” we all know that Vettel still had some performance in reserve at near enough every race. Like Korea, for example, where he put in a final lap about 2 seconds quicker than the previous fastest lap of the race, set 1 or 2 laps before by Hamilton. To stand any chance of beating Vettel and Red Bull regularly, McLaren really need to produce something that is spectacular. Red Bull won’t be standing still either and Newey will be searching for every available point of downforce that is left on that car.

    Fighting Button for the WDC is a nice thought, and would be pretty fantastic, but I just can’t see anyone but Vettel taking the title next year. Again.

    1. I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here.

    2. Yeah, Vettel surely did keep enough in reserve he can dig into if needed. let us hope he will have to dip into that far more often in the coming season.

      McLaren seems to know where they are heading with their car, which is good. Let us hope they turn out a really good car that is fastest at part of the tracks. And Ferrari could make good on their promises to build a great car as well, for the first time in 4-5 years after they shed their over-cautiousness.

      But do not doubt for a moment, that Newey will have new interesting thoughts on what to do to get the car optimised now, withouth the exhaust blowing (or using it in a different place for the little advantage it brings). Just look at how he adapted the platform to fit a DDD in 2010 after the 2009 car had only been updated to fit it with quite a lot of work. The Red Bull will not be far off the pace then, if not stealing a march on the others again.

      1. One time he had to really dig in (Canada) he came up short. I also hope he has more races this year where he is under that sort of pressure and he can show his grit.

        1. I also hope he has more races this year where he is under that sort of pressure and he can show his grit.

          or lack of it, depending on your allegiance ;) @Dobin1000

        2. In Canada, it’s laughable to suggest Seb could have done anything better than second.

          As talented as Vettel is, the Mclaren was just much quicker at that stage, and Button would have got him down the last straight as Vettel wouldn’t have had enough gap. (Which is why he was pushing so hard).

    3. They spent all of 2011’s pre season saying Red Bull wouldn’t have such an advantage as well. :D

  12. Only weak drivers give you more than enough room to pass them. Massa may not be quick, but at least he knows how to defend.

    Lewis on the other hand will dive into a corner without thinking about it properly. If he crashes, then at least he knows that next time the drivers ahead will jump out of the way so they dont have to retire.

  13. Massa’s looks like a little boy scared and is certainly out of his depth at a top team now. Its a shame for him, the head injury seems to have cost him some instinctive fluidity, his driving is disjointed, uneven and he seems to be reacting to situations rather than anticipating them.

    Its a fine line and Lewis certainly wasnt at his mercurial best but he could still outdrive the car and his wins this season were no gimme’s. i certainly dont believe Alonso & Lewis wouldve had those coming togethers.

    The further MAssa gets from his 2008 peak, the more he realises that was his one chance for the WDC, the more desperate he will become. Its time to put the poor guy out to pasture before something happens he and ferrari will regret.

  14. In this sense Massa and Hamilton are like Senna. As mentioned several times by Martin Brundle in the commentary, Senna used to put other drivers in situations where either they back out of it, or they have a crash. When you have two drivers who think this way on the same piece of tarmac, they will almost always crash.

    I think a more mature way of racing is shown by the overtake that Webber did on Alonso into eau rouge. It was voted the best overtake of 2011 and wouldn’t have happened if both drivers did not give each other room. Alonso could have just turned in on Webber and there would have been a huge crash. Imagine if Webber was making this move on Massa…

    Yes, drivers have the right to defend their position, but not at all costs. Racing is also about respect and patience. Drivers should be able to look at the big picture of the entire race/championship, rather than mindlessly going for each gap.

    Dont get me wring I like the way Hamilton races, but wish he was better at judging these situations so that we saw less retirements from him. Hopefully 2011 was a one-off and both Massa and Hamilton will pick up their game next season.

  15. people, the BBC have their season review on iplayer! (uk only)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b018zvng/Formula_1_2011_Season_Review/

    1. @sato113 I keep meaning to watch that. It will probably be gone by the end of the weekend.

      1. @andrewtanner better be quick, it’s only available until 2pm saturday. tomorrow…

    2. The best bit is when they get to the highlights at Valencia, show none of the race but 5 seconds of the podium and then move straight on to Silverstone!

      1. yeah that was class!

  16. maybe lewis should remember how when he passes drivers he often leavs them no room & shoves them off the track, he did that to massa at hockenheim in 2008 when massa tried to re-pass him.

    its a tactic lewis often uses when passing another car or when someone tried to pass him round the outside, he leaves them no room & simply shoves them onto the kurb/astroturf/grass.

    1. That’s the tactic exactly, that’s why drivers chose the inside line to defend his position, that’s why overtaking on the outside rarely happens. If you are on the inside you can push the guy on the outside at your will. Whether you are defending or trying to overtake, you want to go for the inside.

      Massa on the other hand, doesn’t defending his inside line, and still tried to hit the apex as if no one’s there, that is not the idea really.

  17. James Allen to 5Live?

    Now im definately buying a Sky subscription.

  18. Vjanik,
    You raise some valid points. But I ask you this question, have you seen anyone diving down the inside of Hamilton and Hamilton blocking such a move?
    Webber and Hamilton, Hamilton and Button have had tussles where they drive side by side almost half way round the track but no accidents.

    Many drivers have dived down the inside of Hamilton, except when done very late like Webbers Kamikaze in Singapore, Hamilton always gives room to avoid an accident.

    1. At the same time through Massa hasn’t really had similar trouble with other drivers, He’s been in F1 for about 10 years & had very little contact with drivers other than Hamilton.

      Lewis has been in F1 for 5 years & had contact with many drivers all in similar circumstances & has had his driving conduct questioned by several drivers & his driving has been raised in drivers briefings a few times.

      1. Did he have team orders to destroy other than Hamiltons race?

  19. spot on Ooliver.

    ive always confidence when Lewis is battling with the webbers or alonso’s that itll be extremely hard but they are all gauging risk and have enough talent to dive out the way if required. the problem when facing Massa is actually Lewis probably doesnt rate him and therefore underestimates him a bit and perhaps doesnt concentrate quite so much.

    we’ve all done it ( well most perhaps) playing sport, losing the ball to a much inferior opponent because we didnt rate them.

    i think lewis just wants him out of the way rather than sizing him up. you nearly always have to blame both drivers, to a degree, in a crash. lewis needs to pretend its alonso and massa needs to know when to yield.

  20. OmarR-Pepper (@)
    6th January 2012, 13:08

    Oh no just woke up this morning and there are already 60-something comments!
    Well, At risk of repeating something you’ve alraedy said (no time to read all) Massa has been (at least proved once) as guilty as Lewis in those crashes… I know drivers aern’t (or shouldn’t be) scared about “big names”, I don’t think Massa says “oh no a world champion behind , let’s make him overtake me smoothly” (except for team orders of course but that’s a little out of the topic). Massa has the right to defend as well as Hamilton the right to (at least try to) pass. But when they go over the limits of sensible driving then these accidents happen, luckily all of these were just angry times and nobody resulted injured

  21. I think people might be reading a little too much into Hamilton’s comment. I think it’s Lewis’ subtle way of paying Felipe a compliment, in the most sportsmanlike way he can.

    1. Yeah, I though the same… Too bad Lewis has trouble expressing himself…

  22. “We often found ourselves close together and [Felipe] Massa is a difficult driver to pass because he never gives you any room.

    He doesn’t really have to. I find it a nice change when Hamilton isn’t just waved through. The only thing I don’t like is when these two snipe at each other or refuse to talk to one another after the races.

  23. you cant pass at monaco without trying something like that so that example is nonsense. for sure hes made mistakes. show me a man who hasnt and i’ll show you one who hasnt made a decision. give me 10 lewis’ in F1 over 10 massa’s any day. those who dont like him tend not to like his personality and lets say some countriys fans for more ugly reasons perhaps. either way he tries stuff, i’ll never be critical of that.

    adding the word “dangerous” is emotional poppycock. motor racing is dangerous fullstop.

  24. Did anyone else find Pippa Mann’s comments very interesting? The part about how she receives less discrimination in the States than in Europe really surprised me. It wasn’t at all what I expected.

    Personally, I really hope there is a competitive female driver in F1.

    Not only would it be super cool, I think it a lot of women might actually be BETTER suited for the cockpit than many men, considering what is required for F1. An F1 driver is a bit like a horse-racing jockey: Lighter is better. Provided that someone is fit enough to withstand the forces in the car, a tiny female driver weighing 100 pounds would be a huge advantage compared to a 170 pound dude.

    I think that is why a lot of F1 drivers are basically midgets. Lewis Hamilton is shorter than my wife.

    1. Yes I did find them interesting. Also ironic and a bit sad that this story is almost totally ignored in favour of more tedious discussion over Massa and Hamilton, which shold left to the dustbin of 2011.

      This quote from Pippa Mann about the idea of competing in Formula 1 says it all:

      I couldn’t be bothered to deal with that level of prejudice in Europe. The media perception is more extreme in Europe. I have one good race and I’m the walking re-incarnation of Ayrton Senna. I have one bad race and I should never have been allowed out of the kitchen. It’s not like that in the States.

      Two things, the extreme media sensationalism, and the fact that one poor race by a woman in F1 and the whole idea would be rubbished. Still think it will happen one day and hope so. But if the discussions (e.g. Massa v. Hamilton) are already fairly juvenile, imagine then…

  25. Sorry, should apologize for using the word “midget”.. I think the correct term nowadays is “Little person”… Lewis Hamilton is basically a Little Person.

  26. as long as the woman can take 5 lateral G thru her neck muscles theres no reason.

    but evolution has made more men at each end of the athletic scale so you tend to ge more completely useless men and more superhuman ones. women as in most things are more concentrated in the middle area. its the same with intelligence. more bozos are males and more geniuses. but of course discrimination doesnt help.

    i for one am training my 2 yr old daughter already.

  27. If folks are interested, back in 2009 we did an interview with Pippa in which she talked at length about fitness, training, racing as a woman, and the different attitudes in the US and Europe. It was quite eye-opening stuff and – being Pippa, who’s wonderfully quotable – it was also quite blunt in places.
    Link here:

    1. the link does not show BoP Andy!

  28. Lets face it – Hamilton & Massa are never going to get on with each other

  29. Can someone please stop this at last? Otherwise this subject,discussion,major fight between these two and their fans is starting to get on everyone’s nervs.

    1. Even as the fan of one, I agree. It would be great to imagine they will be other polemical stories for 2012!

  30. I feel sorry for Bruno Senna. He was doomed from the start because of his name and that is a great, great shame. Personally I don’t think he had that bad of a season in 2011, and he lacks the experience of many of his peers yet still put in some sterling performances. Granted, he didn’t exactly set the world alight but he didn’t make an arse of himself neither.
    When you compare him to others who have driven their entire careers in the mid-pack and whine about their lack of power steering I think Bruno is the perfect professional. He didn’t go groaning to his native media like Vitaly Petrov did when things at Renault went pearshaped, and he comes across very well in interviews.
    I laughed very hard at Hamilton’s snipe at Massa. I guess now, after saying that, Lewis will expect Felipe to jump out of his way in 2012 everytime he sees Hamilton’s McLaren in his mirrors. If he does he really is in more trouble than I thought!

  31. “I’m sure Mercedes and I will be successful. We just need another small step and then we can make it to the top.”

    I’m sure MS is dillusional if he thinks a small step is all they need…given that 9 times out of 10 the WDC winner had the WCC winning car, I would think it is safe to say Merc needs a leap in performance, not just another small step. And whatever gain they make, he still has to do something he hasn’t been doing…beat NR…before he can even think of ‘the top.’

    But hey, what else is he going to say at this point, right?

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