Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Valencia, 2012

2012 half-term driver rankings part three: 5-3

2012 F1 seasonPosted on | Author Keith Collantine

The third part of the F1 Fanatic half-term driver rankings brings us up to the final two.

This is my rating of how each of the drivers have performed so far this year. See here for information on how the ranking is produced and you can read the first part here.

F1 Fanatic readers were invited to share their own views on each of the drivers and a selection of those appear below.

5. Mark Webber

Mark Webber, Red Bull, Monaco, 2012It’s hard to avoid the impression that the new restrictions the FIA placed on blowing exhaust gasses into the diffuser this year have played into Webber’s hands.

The period when he was most under the cosh at the hands of his team mate – from late 2010 and throughout 2011 – coincides with the time Red Bull were able to exploit the technology to its fullest.

The trait it produced in the Red Bull’s handling that Webber did not react well to – low-speed turn-in appeared a particularly weakness – has diminished and Webber’s performance relative to Vettel has correspondingly recovered to its mid-2010 level.

He is the leading Red Bull driver on points and that’s not just down to Vettel’s Valencia misfortune – there have been days on which Webber was plainly the quicker of the two, such as in China.

In Monaco it was Webber who was best-placed to capitalise on Schumacher’s absence from pole position and he controlled the race flawlessly. In Britain he hunted down and passed Fernando Alonso to win. And in Valencia he charged through the field from 19th to fourth.

Beat team mate in qualifying 5/11
Beat team mate in race 4/10
Races finished 11/11
Laps spent ahead of team mate 165/661

His qualifying performances have improved too. Given all this, it may seem harsh to place him as low as fifth, behind one driver who’s yet to win a race this year. But there have been races where Webber simply hasn’t figured. He dropped back at the restart in Malaysia, and could only manage eighth in the two races since extending his Red Bull contract.

Remember the Mark Webber of last season? Remember how in the same car, his team mate throttled him so badly after the near-miss of 2010? That was the old Mark Webber, the new improved Mark Webber of 2012 is so much different, and better.

Yes, there have been some dodgy results but he’s won two races and his victory at Silverstone was right in the middle of Alonso?s hot streak, only adding to the credibility. Will 2012 be the year Mark gets the title he so clearly wants? Could be, you know.

Mark Webber 2012 form guide

4. Kimi Raikkonen

Kimi Raikkonen, Lotus, Hungaroring, 2012Raikkonen had an indifferent final season with Ferrari in 2009 which culminated in the team cutting his contract short by a year. He then spent two years dabbling in different motor racing categories without finding a permanent home.

This did not bode well for his return to F1 with Lotus this year. The worst fears seemed to be confirmed when he failed to get through Q1 first time out in Melbourne.

But since then Raikkonen has consistently improved and come tantalisingly close to victory on two occasions. He had a single shot to make it past Vettel in Bahrain but couldn’t capitalise on the opportunity. Then in Hungary he chased down Hamilton and finished second again.

Raikkonen has typically been able to harness the E20’s kindness to its tyres to move forward in the races. On two significant occasions when that was not the case – in China and Monaco – he had missed out on some track time during practice.

Beat team mate in qualifying 4/11
Beat team mate in race 5/7
Races finished 11/11
Laps spent ahead of team mate 310/480

Qualifying has been a weakness – more often than not his junior team mate has started ahead. But not much improvement is needed here for him to be a regular contender for victory with the E20.

If he can crack that, his prospects as a championship contender will look a lot more realistic.

I admit I did not expect too much from him, and the first races showed how long it takes to get back in a rithm. But by now he could well be favourite to win the next two races and its not impossible that he will be part of the championship battle. Good job Iceman.

Kimi Raikkonen 2012 form guide

3. Sebastian Vettel

Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Valencia, 2012Vettel’s terse remark to his team during the Hungarian Grand Prix, demanding they “do something” to help him escape from being stuck behind Button, captured the frustration which has dogged his championship defence this year.

It was clear from the first race of the season the RB8 was not going to give him the same margin over his rivals he enjoyed in 2010 and, to a lesser extent, 2011.

Nonetheless Vettel began the season with an excellent performance in Australia, coming away with a fortunate second place which was slightly better than he might have expected. He was excellent in Monaco too, running a long stint on soft tyres to make up ground.

But there have been some costly mistakes. The stewards laid the blame for his Malaysian Grand Prix collision with Narain Karthikeyan at the HRT driver’s feet, but there was simply no need for Vettel to leave the backmarker so little room. There went a potential podium finish. The same can be said of his penalty at the German Grand Prix, which was utterly avoidable.

Most unusually, he failed to put together his best sector times in China and missed out on a spot in Q3. He set that right in Valencia, emerging from a very close Q2 to set an emphatic pole position that recalled his performances from last year.

He was cruising to his second win of the year on race day when his alternator failed. The resulting 32-point swing to Alonso accounts for much of the gap between the two. Vettel’s occasional dullness in the heat of battle more than covers the rest. But it’s nothing he can’t put right in the remaining races.

Beat team mate in qualifying 6/11
Beat team mate in race 6/10
Races finished 10/11
Laps spent ahead of team mate 496/661

He?d be just ten points behind Alonso in the standings if his car hadn?t betrayed him in Valencia. That said, the defending champion is looking more like his 2010 self than his 2011 self. But remember ?ǣ he also won that 2010 championship.

Sebastian Vettel 2012 form guide

The F1 Fanatic half-term driver rankings will conclude on Friday. Have your say on the drivers so far in the comments.

You can also read what other F1 Fanatics had to say about the drivers in the forum.

Driver rankings

Browse all driver ranking articles

Image ?? Red Bull/Getty images, Lotus F1 Team/LAT, Red Bull/Getty images

162 comments on “2012 half-term driver rankings part three: 5-3”

Jump to comment page: 1 2
  1. How can Webber be behind Vettel?

    He had no KERS during Melbourne Qualifying, during the Spanish GP the team didn’t send him out in Q2 and his wing fell off, at Valencia his hydraulics failed during qualifying, and at Hungary his diff failed. Not to mention he is beating Vettel at ‘his’ team.

    Webber is a clear third this year.

    1. But he had absolutely horrible pace in 2 races – Bahrain and Germany. I certainly don’t rate Vettel as high as Hamilton or Alonso, but it has to be said at least he’s consistently quick, in contrary to Webber, who had, as I mentioned, 2 Massa- or Button-like races in terms of being nowhere near pace of his teammate.

      1. Webber had pretty horrific strategy at Germany that left him stuck behind cars all race, oh and I forgot to add to my list, the 5 place grid penalty he got!

        Honestly Webber has had some sort of mechanical problem at almost every race, and when he doesn’t have them he wins. If not for that 5 grid place drop he would have been just up there with the front runners.

        1. There was no horrific strategy in Germany. Yes, he had to pit earlier for the first time in order to get clean air, but even in clan air he couldn’t match not only Vettel, but also struggled to keep Force India and Mercedes behind, which were much slower than Red Bull that day.

          In Bahrain and Germany he was awful and looking at various forums his fans couldn’t use any excuse for it, because he was just painfully slow. That’s the problem with Webber, leaving all mechanical problems aside, he has these terrible races, which doesn’t happen to any other top driver.

          1. In fairness, MW had qualified 3rd in Germany, then had a gearbox change.

            Otherwise I disagree with “horrific strategy” in Germany, and I disagree with his point about Spain, considering that he could have set a faster time in Q2, and that his teammate also had a front wing change in the race, had a drivethrough penalty, yet finished 5 places ahead, passing guys faster than Hulkenberg’s Force India.

          2. @David-A

            Webber was much faster in Q2, hence they sent Vettel out again, but were confident Webber was so fast they wouldn’t have too.

            Also Vettel had a front wing change when he was in the pits, Webber lost a good 30 seconds on track with a slow wing, Vettel did not.

          3. @infi24r – Well, the race pace wasn’t there otherwise.

      2. Also I notice there is plenty of mention of Vettels Valencia misfortune, but not all the smaller (and often large) technical misfortunes that have cost Webber atleast 40 points this season, far more than Vettels Valencia problem.

        1. When Webber’s car packs up from the lead, then you can feel unlucky. 52 races without a mechanical DNF now I think for Mark, not too shabby.

          1. @91jb12 Vettel’s had four car DNFs in that time, all from the lead.

          2. @David-A yeah but how many positions has mark lost due to minor failures? No KERS comes to mind. He’s had ALOT of problems this year too.

          3. @infi24r

            yeah but how many positions has mark lost due to minor failures?

            It’s hard to say, but usually there isn’t much evidence of him having super pace, only to be stopped by a failure like you often see with Vettel or Hamilton when they have a car issue. With regards to KERS, I remember Vettel having a KERS failure at Spain last year- he won anyway. Haven’t seen Webber do that.

    2. @infi24r That car problems can prevent a driver’s true ability from being apparent in their championship score is not lost on me – it’s mentioned above and in the other articles in this series.

      But a simple tally of occasions when Webber’s car has let him down is not going to be enough to convince me that he’s driven better than Vettel (or Raikkonen).

      1. But Vettel gets his valencia misfortune mentioned.

        What about the ocassions like Spain were Webber probably would have gotten a podium if not for him being so much faster than Vettel (and them not sending him out again in Q2)

        Or Valencia in which Webber probably would have won the race following Vettels demise, if not for his car failing during qualifying. etc etc.

        I do agree with you that Vettel has had less bad races, but he’s also had less stand out races. And alot of Webbers ‘bad’ results are compounded by misfortune often out of his hands.

        1. Well in Valencia, Vettel clearly deserved that race victory; it was one of the drives of the season, until his car broke and he retired.

        2. @infi24r Obviously I’m not going to write a complete chapter-and-verse list of everything that’s happened to every driver so far this year. That would be a lousy article to read. If you want that kind of detail, go back to the separate Driver of the Weekend articles which are referenced in the link in the second paragraph.

      2. i think webber has driven better then raikonnen. even grosjean has driven better then raikonnen except for hungary.

        1. and with exception for China, Bahrain, Malaysia and pretty much every other race. The only race I recall Grosjean was definitely having a blast, was Canada.

          While Grosjean had one or two races(even if that many) where he could not match his team mate by a considerable margin, Webber was much slower on several occasions.

          There are of course plenty of other factors affecting the results, but it’s all part of the game. You win some you loose some, legendary drivers(any sportsmen/woman) tend to have more wins :)

          1. Paul Barrass
            16th August 2012, 9:02

            Valencia? From memory he was riding fairly high before transmission problems forced him out?

          2. @Kimi4WDC has it right. truly great drivers overcome adversity. i hate it when sportsmen/teams whinge about a tiny piece of bad luck ruining their chance for victory. for example, the england football team always lose on penalties, and then the media has a moan about how ‘unfair’ it is. but this is stupid – if you know the game will go to penalties, and that you always lose on penalties, then try extra hard to win it in normal time.

            the same applies to F1 – you may have mechanical errors, struggle to come back from poor qualifying, or whatever – the best drivers have enough in hand to overcome these setbacks.

        2. No I think that you missed what racing is all about….

    3. Jayfreese (@)
      15th August 2012, 15:45

      well looking to the reactions, Webber bitterly diserves a Top 3 here, he’s won two classic grand prix this year, Monaco and Silverstone, both are tough compare to the Bahrain one who was won by the defending World Champ Vettel. So, what do you want more than that??

      1. its great to win the blue ribbond races.. but why can’t he win your ‘bread and butter’ races like Bahrain?
        Vettel had to work very hard to defend against a Lotus which was more than a match for the RB that day, just as Webber had to work very hard to win his 2 races.
        He’s been mega at Monaco and Silverstone, did a good recovery in Valencia, but in Bahrain, Canada, and the German race, the Spanish race and the Malaysian race, he was very mediocre.
        Hungary was a bit unlucky, could’ve had 5th and Spain Q2 was unlucky as well as Valencia/Oz qualy but they were small things compared to the car packing up from the lead.
        That failure has argualy put Vettel on the back foot. He’s had to chase points, rather than manage a lead, which he should’ve had after Valencia.

        1. Button like season for Webber in some way, of course not that disastrous. So far, we’ll see how it turns out, cant wait!

    4. As many others have, and no doubt many more will point out most of Marks poor performances can be traced back to mechanical or tactical problems and I still believe that RBR have a goal of getting Mark near the top of the point standings but of having Vettel at the top of the point standings, not sabotage just a different emphasis.
      However, let’s look on the bright side in this rating, Mark has 4 World Champions rated above him and 2 World Champions rated below him, not to shabby I reckon.

      1. I completely agree, i’m struggling to think of a poor result for Mark that has not come about due to a Red Bull blunder or failure.

        Bahrain maybe wasn’t impressive but 4th is hardly a poor result. Hungary he could have taken 4th if not for a pointless tyre stop and diff problem.

  2. seriously…can hardly find anyone with better racecraft than kimi now~~ drive beautifully and intelligently….not to mention his overtakings have been impressive…mostly without DRS aid~!! Good luck Iceman!!

  3. These 3 are very evenly matched but clearly I think the order was right.
    Vettel was robbed of a huge score in Valencia and also Malaysia to a lesser extent by incidents out of his control.
    Germany was a frustrating misjudgment and Hungary the lack of passing places cost him a podium there but generally, I’m happy with how he’s drove. No races where he’s anonymous, race pace has been strong, qualifying generally good, racecraft has improved out of sight, and it can still get better, as Hungary/Germany showed
    He’s a slightly distant 3rd to Alonso and then Hamilton but he’s been the 3rd best driver this season.

    Kimi has been very consistant with only 1 non score but I feel that car could’ve won a couple of races and his qualifying has often let him down.
    Webber has been much, much closer to Vettel this year and indeed has more points and 2 wins but he’s had somelacklustre performances which negate his brilliant wins. I have it 6-5 Vettel in qualy and 7-4 in races

    I’m trying not to put them down, as I said all 3 are evenly matched but I’d have Vettel 3rd with maybe Webber 4 Kimi 5

    1. winning aside, kimi has put up couple of memorable performance~~ it shows that his driving is still top notch!! to win a race everything has to come together~~ kimi often suffer mechanical failures in qualifying and races as well, eg kers in silverstone qualifying and hungary races, hydraulic failure in montreal, team strategy screw up in shanghai gp, hockeinham etc!! Im sure kimi is ready to win, but the team has to improve their parts as well! I dont thibk webber drove better than kimi, even vettel was not driving as good as kimi has!! imo

      1. generally I agree with you.
        But i think Keith is asserting a few wrong remarks about Kimi, and they are clearly wrong in fact:-
        Kimi did NOT have an indifferent final season with Ferrari. He had one of the worst-designed cars on the grid, and he brought home a win and several podiums. Keith knows very well he can’t say that Kimi’s secpnd half of 2009 was bad. It was excellent. That’s fact. Keith has to explain why a driver he describes in such unflattering terms is now definitely in every top performers poll for this year. He must be doing something right.
        Or is this simply an anti-Raikkonen site? Keith has to be honest and tell us why he is not objective when it comes to Kimi !

        1. I try to be objective about every driver. That’s the most anyone can promise. As I always say, no-one is perfectly impartial, we are all only human.

          But I can explain my reasoning and that’s what I’ve tried to do here now and in the past. I thought Raikkonen’s performance in 2009 was indifferent and I explained why at the time. If Ferrari had thought his driving was significantly better than that I doubt they would have bought him out of his contract for 2010 and brought Alonso in.

          Nor do I think my description of Raikkonen’s performance in the article above is at all “unflattering”. It’s no different in tone to the sections on Webber and Vettel. I can’t help it if you were hoping for something more gushing.

          1. the engineers said kimi ‘s performance that year already exceed the simulation ‘s prediction!! However, since they already sign alonso beforehand, i dont think anything kimi has done will make much different!! they cant hire two top drivers anyway~~alonso wouldn’t want a competitive teammate as well

          2. not to mention the santander deal is really big for ferrari to repalce the marlboro reduce commitment in sponsorship

          3. since they already sign alonso beforehand

            This is simply not true. Raikkonen already had a contract for 2010 and Ferrari chose to buy him out of it, as I already mentioned.

          4. I think that maybe had more to do with Ferrari not wanting the bad press that would come from doing the same to Massa.

          5. the blog of Luca Coloj showed that they already sign a pre contract with Alonso…dissing kimi out is part of the plan~~ i mean, in 2008, kimi already said he want the old suspension back, how long it tooks them to put them back on the car?? and in 2009, it was clear that as soon as the team focus on kimi, the results just went sky rocketted……..its nt as easy as you trying to paint it out to be!!

          6. Hi Keith
            there is a lot more to be told about Kimi’s departure from Ferrari and his time there. People like yourself know more than most about the ins and outs of it, but you choose to ignore all that and repeat this myth of Kimi just ‘not performing’.
            AS for this season, got a feeling we are fast approaching a general re-appraisal of Kimi among top pundits, like yourself. Why not Keith leading the way on that?

          7. got a feeling we are fast approaching a general re-appraisal of Kimi among top pundits, like yourself. Why not Keith leading the way on that?

            I’m flattered you consider me a “top pundit”! But I don’t necessarily share your view on what other people think of Raikkonen and, at any rate, I’m not one for bandwagon-jumping. I’ve put Raikkonen fourth in this list which as far as I’m concerned reflects my view that he’s done a good job so far.

            If you think I’ve written something about him in this article which unfairly reflects on his performance so far please explain what.

            you choose to ignore all that and repeat this myth of Kimi just ‘not performing’.

            I don’t consider it a myth – as I’ve already said I think my description of how he performed in 2009 in the article I linked to two comments ago is fair.

            If some people choose to believe Ferrari only brought in Alonso to get Santander money, more fool them. Alonso has driven superbly for the team since joining them.

          8. What I really noticed this year with Kimi is that he makes very few mistakes on track, but most of them come during that qualifying lap, that must get him the front row.

            We all know Kimi hardly have any confidence issues, as he pretty much doesn’t care. But I can’t keep on wondering that during those flying laps he thinks too much of his car and under the circumstances of qualifying, car just not getting to what Kimi think it should be able to do, be it temperature in tyres or whatever.

          9. Hi Keith
            You yourself admit that your view of Kimi was wrong at season’s start. There is something about Kimi’s relations with press and pundits that just seems to work against him. I would be interested to hear your comments on this. I would just argue that it is rare to find among your colleagues a “balanced” view when it comes to KR…
            For example, Keith, do you think Kimi could and should have won every race in 2009 with the car of that year and all the other factors pertaining?
            Do you think he could and should have got pole every saturday and then won every race in 2012? because by that measure he is not a top class driver … He is second rate, unmotivated, unable to seize opportunities, etc.

          10. You yourself admit that your view of Kimi was wrong at season’s start.

            I don’t believe I’ve said anything of the sort – what are you referring to?

          11. Keith, your words:
            “I admit I did not expect too much from him,”

            Your expectation turned out to be wrong and I’m arguing that the evidence shows that Kimi did very well straight out of the box
            “and the first races showed how long it takes to get back in a rithm.”
            Does that take into account that his want of a sufficiently sensitive steering column has hampered his achievments on the single quali lap? I do grant you that quali has been a weakness for Kimi, but I would you agree that Lotus have had the best possible driver line up and their decision to get Kimi has transformed their standing and fortunes?

          12. “I admit I did not expect too much from him”

            Those aren’t my words, they’re @BasCB‘s.

          13. Ideed “de Hooch” as Keith points out, those were my words used to describe my own rating of Kimi’s season so far used by Keith to illustrate what people on the forum thought about the drivers.

        2. The reason Ferrari chose to buy him out its because they felt morally obligated to give massa a chance after the accident..

        3. It is a shame that the press keeps on repeating the same things over and over untill they become “facts”. Kimi suffers more then most from this syndrome because he doesn’t speak out against anyone or correct the press.
          Luca Colojani himself posted some interesting things regarding the Kimi situation in Leo Turrini’s blog, one of these things where that Alonso was signed around middle 2008, but I guess since it was in Italian we should excuse any ignorance. The conclusion is it would never have mattered what Kimi had done. One could conclude that it wasn’t much in Ferrari’s interest to have Kimi performing well, but with Massa’s accident they didn’t have a choice but to support Kimi, but of course that is only speculation on my part. But if you dont believe Ferrari’s own Press Officer then were also other clues. Kimi’s co-driver have also stated that Kimi was practically signed to Citroen by June/ July 2009.

          Kimi drove excellently in 2009, it is a shame does he doesn’t get credit for it. Ferrari had already stopped car development in July that year and Kimi still went on to win and score a few podiums in that car. James Allen reported that Ferrari engineers and mechanics did not know how Kimi was achieving those results he was performing above projection. Even Domenicali recently compared Alsonso’s results this year to Kimi in 2009.

          1. It would be in a teams interest to support both their drivers as well as they can. Whether or not they do it well is another matter.

    2. I’ll put this

      and Hungary the lack of passing places cost him a podium

      into perspective just to show you how pointless your remarks are.
      and Abu Dhabi the lack of passing places cost him a championshp.
      See now how pointless that is?
      If you wanna go by that logic, Alonso is the champion of 2010, Vettel being champion only on paper, because Abu Dhabi the lack of passing places cost Alonso a championship.

      Please people, refrain from this kind of comments. Maybe he wouldn’t have won in Bahrain, if it had more passing places for Kimi.
      It’s absolutely pointless. At the end of the day, these are the tracks, these are the cars, these are the rules, so go and make the best of it. Everything that happens is part of the game.

      Only thing I can accept as a genuine bad luck is hitting a stray rodent and braking your wing or something as bizarre as that. DNFs are not bad luck. They are bad engineering and/or quality control, or simply pushing the component just that one bit too far.

      1. +10, if that’s possible..

      2. I son’t believe anyone can think that DNF’s can not be bad luck (particularly on a team by team basis or individual basis). Firstly, all of the teams are at the mercy of the tyres (Pirreli only) and engines manufacturers(when they are not an engine manufacturer themselves) and all are also at the mercy of the ECU (McLaren only), brakes, gearbox, etc. Although quality is monitored, as these elements are outside of a teams control if they have a set of failures over consecutive weekends on different outsourced products for example, then in what way can this be classed as anything other than bad luck? It’s an area for concern for me that this year at the top end there appear to have been more component failures than the past couple of seasons, and I won’t even bother saying what I think of the tyres, but there’s so much room for things to go wrong mechanically which the team have no ability to control, then a cluster of those things can only be considered bad luck.

        Indeed, even when a team has let itself down with it’s engineering, and you get DNFs due to such, it can still be bad luck for a driver if they all affect one driver out of two only for no logical or mechanical reason…

  4. I do not rate Hamilton that highly as the next installment in the series would suggest. He is fast, there is no denying that.. just query his judgement most of the time.
    The shenanigans in Valencia spring to mind. I know there will be some here who would jump on my back about it being Maldonado’s fault. True. But Hamilton still got no points. I’d bet Alonso would have done things differently. That is what distinguishes excellent drivers from great drivers.. Those that can see the big picture.

    1. imo, both him and button has been wasting too many chances on the best car of the grid~~~ and thanks to them, alonso has gain many points from their mistakes!!!

      1. In Hamiltons case it was McLaren who wasted too much chances. You can’t make Hamilton responsible for slow pit stops or a underfuelled car, a faulty gearbox or a defect part of equipment. The puncture at German gP was pure bad luck for example. I have not seen one single driving error from Hamilton so far this season.

        1. melbourne? valencia?

          1. Hamilton didn’t make an error in Australia, he just unexpectedly didn’t have the pace of Button. Valencia was Maldonado.

          2. i agree hamilton does not deserve number 2. a couple pitstop errors aside, he is consistantly bad on tyres, he gets top grid positions (where tyre wear does not matter, and shows his cars true pace) then falls away in races. he has the best car on the grid and is a top 3 driver, but is 4th in the standings, that does not warrent 2nd place in this article. kovaleinen has driven much better in the machinery he has.

          3. I think any suggestion that the Mclaren is the car to be in is long outdated.

          4. The data here makes it abundantly clear no one team has had the fastest car at every race this year:

            Top teams remain close as McLaren peg back Red Bull

          5. Chanyiwei, no.
            Kimi and Romain could not make the most of the greatest car, Alonso got more point than F2012 limit. Ofcourse Alonso did fantastic driving too.

        2. @Kucicfanman, ” he is consistantly bad on tyres” – Based upon what ?, i have seen the couple of days some of your comments and they are all negative towards Hamilton, you need to CALM DOWN! – ” he gets top grid positions (where tyre wear does not matter, and shows his cars true pace) then falls away in races. he has the best car on the grid and is a top 3 driver, but is 4th in the standings, that does not warrent 2nd place in this article. kovaleinen has driven much better in the machinery he has” – So explain Button then, who has the same car

    2. Your argument about Hamilton getting 0 points falls apart because it was considered to be Maldonado’s fault for using the runoff to ram Hamilton.

      If LH should have moved over simply because Pastor could crash into him, then you might as well claim that Alonso should have dived out of Maldonado’s way in Australia because PM could have hit Fernando instead of a wall.

      1. I agree with you for once. And Hamilton has been the absolute class of qualifying.

      2. does not matter what the argument is.. Maldonado got punished blah, blah blah.. Hamilton left Valencia Empty handed.. 0 points. That is the bottom line. He could/Should have let Maldonado go and taken 4th place – 12points. That is what you do.. BIG PICTURE.

        1. You cannot bleat about the “big picture” when it is some else’s fault for crashing into your car. It was up to Maldonado to make a pass without colliding, and he failed. That is the bottom line.

          1. Tell that to Hamilton in Nov when he loses the WDC by less than 12 points and you lot start bleating. He should not have been fighting Maldonado coming home. You pick your fights. Are you telling me Hamilton would fight Maldonado again during similar circumstances in future? If he fought Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Raikonen, Button I would understand… But a guy who uses a Car like a lethal Weapon? Yikes. Lets see him do it again in Spa (Come home with 0 pts as long as he is in the right).

          2. It’s easy to suggest how Hamilton should have acted in hindsight. But the thing is, he did nothing wrong. It’s the guy who “uses a car like a lethal weapon” who has done something wrong, because purely, he shouldn’t use his car as a lethal weapon.

          3. And I see that you agree that LH did nothing wrong. In that case, you blame Maldonado for that, and you shouldn’t use it against Hamilton in a ranking.

          4. in respect of the laws of F1 Hamilton did nothing wrong. But in respect of the intelligence of a potential WCD he did everything wrong. He had no tyres = no possibility to defend = let maldonado pass(and trust me – he was going to get past him) = let’s make the maximum to bring home the 4th place and 12 points and if not look for 5-th or 6-th…this is how the intelligence of a WCD should be…. e.x Alonso vs Maldonado in China
            If he continues to drive like this he will not win a world championship again or only if he find rival like Massa (who had clearly the best car but could manage to win). If he change he will have his possibility

          5. @Sossoliso has a point about the “big picture”. It was only a matter of time that Maldonado would have easily passed Hamilton. Of course, I don’t blame at all Hamilton for the incident. On the other hand, look at Alonso in Canada, he had no tyres and he didn’t fought that much for position, instead cruised home to take 5th

        2. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it works not in the present. Who would have thought a driver comes back from off track and ramms someone in the barriers?
          You could have said the same about Perez/ Maldonado, Di Resta/ Maldonado
          Button/ Vettel 2010 etc etc.

          1. Depends on the Driver. There is form… unless you do not recognise who it is you are racing.

          2. Yes Sossoliso, we’ve got your point that Hamilton should have been wise to the fact Maldonado has had FIA approval to ram into other drivers deliberately.

            I admire people like Hamilton who don’t cave into bullying behaviour. Maldonado is paying the price for his malicious driving now, albeit too late for Hamilton’s points score, but so what? He’s shown you can’t just drive him off the track as Maldonado wanted. The fact you’d evidently lack the courage to do the same is your problem.

        3. That is one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve heard on this site. If you’re a fan of racing, you don’t argue that a leading driver shouldn’t ever defend from a faster car.

          1. @matt90 Agreed entirely.

    3. It’s not often in F1 you can say things with complete certainty. But those who say Hamilton acted incorrectly in the incident with Maldonado at Valencia are completely and categorically in the wrong.

      Obviously it would be utterly preposterous to blame Hamilton for the actions of another driver who went off the track and then rammed him off the circuit. I appreciate that is not what some people are saying.

      But those who take the softer stance, that Hamilton did nothing wrong but should have let Maldonado past because it was the prudent thing to do, are also wrong.

      This is not an argument that would be made without the benefit of hindsight: had Maldonado obeyed the rules and not driven into the McLaren no-one would be saying Hamilton had made a mistake.

      The most compelling point is that those who criticise Hamilton are saying by implication that racing drivers should yield position to any driver who threatens to crash into them. Which is obviously complete rubbish.

      1. Hamilton did not act incorrectly. that is not the point. He was 1000 % Correct. BUT HE STILL GOT NO POINTS. That is the point. What would he do differently next time?

        1. He should do nothing differently next time, for the reasons explained in the last three paragraphs of my previous comment.

          1. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance.

          2. and he will not win a WDC again.

          3. that is just one race, he has been appalling in other races compared to his qualifying position, showing he is not matching the cars ability. he has only 2 wins in the best car. webber has 2 in the 2nd or 3rd best car and is 5th in this tally. in qualifying tyre wear does not matter, so hamilton matches the cars ability there, and after that he underperforms.

          4. @kubicfanman, who say’s that the MP4-27 is still the best car ?, where do you get that from ?, in Australia and Malaysia they where the best but the team messed up Hamilton pit stop in Malaysia twice. The lotus/Renault is the best car at the moment

          5. a car that dominate qualifying with 2nd best race pace you consider as not BEST CAR???? Lotus may be fast on race, but they can hardly fight for poles aint they??? nice way to make lewis looks good, but failed

          6. I agree with @keithcollantine entirely. Hamilton should not have to design his driving around the assumption that Maldonado might hit him pulling some stunt from off the track.

            If the same thing happens again, I expect Lewis to the exact same thing.

            The “but he got no points” thing is ridiculous, When Buemi’s wheels came off in China, can you criticize him because it cost him practice time? no! Because he didn’t do anything wrong.

        2. If we take your argument as correct, the we therefore must say that any driver either attempting to overtake, or being overtaken by Maldonado should just let him go. What our effectively saying is that no driver should drive anywhere near Maldonado and therefore let him win almost every race. Surely you can appreciate the absolute ludicrousness and stupidity of such an argument.

          1. there are 2 possibility:
            if u had no tyres = lose 4-5 sec per lap = led him pass (not only maldonado but everyone)
            if u fight in same conditions of tyres = fight intelligent
            A driver should be able to know when he had tyres or not…or at least Alonso does

          2. Hamilton knew he had no tyres, but just because his car is slower doesn’t mean he should just get out the way! A lot of people are saying Alonso would have just got out the way… I seriously doubt that, and if he would, I feel very sad that we are in a state when a driver who just gives up on positions, not willing to race for position is the “best” driver in F1. Luckily, i seriously doubt thats the case.

          3. There is no race when u don’t have tyres. Pirelli rules…bridgestone were different we could still fight…Alonso did it in Canda

          4. No driver should ever be obliged to move over if he is racing for position.

            If it ends in a crash, then someone will be to blame. In Valencia, Pastor was to blame.

        3. Maldonado was as avoidable as the debris at Hockenheim who caused a puncture & DNF for Hamilton

          1. I am assuming your comment was sarcastic as both items were unavoidable….

            To those who blame LH for “missing the points.”
            It is my humble opinion that he never imagined that PM would drive into him. F1 cars regularly get within inches of each other without hitting. He basically has .001 sec to decide if PM would back down because he was 1. in the wrong or 2. just testing LH to intimidate him out of the spot.
            It think it came as a shock to LH when PM actually ran into him. Indeed, PM behaved in an F1-unacceptable way. PM did/does not never have the control required to get in close like so many other F1 drivers can, and as the Perez incident proves.

            Maldonado seems completely incapable of that level of control.
            So yes, there is a hindsight factor here, but it is not what happened in that particular instance rather, the hindsight that exists now is to avoid Pastore when you see him in the mirrors because what might look like an F1 care is really just a wrecking ball hurdling out of control And this, I feel, is indisputable.

            Somebody needs to take that guys Super License away.

      2. But those who take the softer stance, that Hamilton did nothing wrong but should have let Maldonado past because it was the prudent thing to do, are also wrong.

        I agree with what you are saying, but on the end of the day Hamilton is racing Humans and not Robots. Pushing Maldonado wide is a fairly smart and legal move to make. But equally, as a smart driver you can not expect that everything is always going to go as planned and that everyone is going to obey the rules and be a happy little driver and let you PUSH them wide. You gotta have a least bit of sense that the opposing driver may not want to go wide. Either way, I disagree that Maldonado purposely rammed Hamilton of the circuit.

      3. I sympathise, but i think what people are saying is: smart is better than sorry

      4. @KeithCollantine I couldn’t agree more but I find it interesting that here we probably are discussing two different approaches to racing. I have read / heard that Alonso likes to calculate a lot, that he always perfectly knows how many points he has, what kind of advantage / deficit in the standings and that he drives with these numbers in his head, too. Some other drivers, however, might pay less attention to them and focus more on each race and each situation seperately.

        Two examples come to my mind: Button at Interlagos in 2009 and Alonso at Abu Dhabi in 2010. While Jenson drove aggressively and overtook a lot on his way to his first and probably only title, Alonso looked extremely cautious a year later. Of course, Button’s prospects before the decisive race were different to Alonso’s but that’s not the point. What I want to say is that different approaches in this sense really exist and that it’s not as if ‘calculating’ would always guarantee a driver a better outcome than ‘fighting’ or vice versa.

        However, here we are talking about the middle of a season, not the end, and, as I said, you are completely right regarding all the other points, too.

        1. @girts

          Are you suggesting than Alonso, (or indeed any driver on the grid) would have just let Pastor past?

          1. @Mike Of course, not. I simply think that Alonso might have left Pastor more space. I have also read that Hamilton took a bit more aggressive line when defending from Maldonado than he did when Raikkonen overtook him. I don’t blame Lewis for that, this is just a thought / conclusion.

          2. @girts

            You are aware that Maldonado effectively was taking a short cut when he beached himself. Whether or not he hit Hamilton it would have been a giant no no to be driving where he was… I don’t think there is any reason why anyone should expect Lewis to make room on the inside of his car when there is no viable legal way another car could enter that space.

            Pastor should have backed out.

      5. Bravo Keith! It is a rare occasion when You defend LH. I’m sure this comment will be deleted, nevertheless I don’t bite My tongue.

        1. I don’t keep a running tally on this sort of thing but I know for a fact I’ve written things that both criticise and defend Hamilton. I know this because I’ve been accused by different people of being “biased” both against and in favour of him. And the same no doubt goes for several other drivers too. It’s all rather tedious.

          1. @keithCollantine Notice I said rare and didn’t say never. You are a statistics guru, bet if You looked You would find much more criticism than praise. Just sayin…

      6. Hamilton did absolutely nothing wrong. I can’t believe we have here people trying to justify suggesting a driver should just move over and let someone past. It doesn’t matter if your car is ten seconds a lap slower, if you have track position you should race for everything you can. Make your opponent work for the overtake, don’t give them room and roll over. It’s the responsibility of the overtaking driver to ensure they overtake safely, not the responsibility of the leading driver to move aside just in case the driver behind doesn’t have the skill required to overtake safely.

        No, Hamilton was absolutely right to defend his position. You make your opponents work hard, and occasionally they’ll end up having a problem and the attack will be over. Maybe they’ll lock a wheel, spin out, damage their suspension. If you stop thinking like that then you’re not racing any more, you’re just driving around the circuit.

      7. This taken from an article on another site…”He did say one interesting thing before he left though. “You never let people past,” he answered when asked if he should have left more room for Maldonado. “You have got to race for every position.” He may have been right.

        Fans may love him for that attitude. The stewards may have backed him. But had he ceded position he would have at least 12 points more.

        What would Alonso have done?” End of quote taken from article.

        @Keith…I agree completely with your comments about the LH/PM incident at Valencia. LH had to do his job and race it out and could not have predicted what was about to happen. PM needed to pick a better spot to pass given that LH’s tires were ‘gone’ as he himself put it after the race. Perhaps if there were 10 laps to go LH shouldn’t have defended so hard if being passed was inevitable due to his tires being ‘gone’, but with so little time left in the race, LH had to go for it, imho.

        For the sake of mid-August, F1-break conversation though, and not argument to your point Keith, I will just add though that there are definitely occasions when it is prudent for a driver to let another go…but not necessarily for fear of being crashed into, although I’ll cite an example of that too. In other words, I cannot agree with LH’s comment that “you never let people past.”

        We have often seen it happen in many racing formats not just F1, that a driver, in trying to defend his position to a rearward, hounding car, starts to lose time to the leader(s) of the race such that it becomes prudent to let him go (release him is sometimes the term used) so that the defending driver can then go back to a faster lap time once not needing to defend. This would in other words be at a time when it is futile and there is such a pace difference that being passed is inevitable and it is only hurting the leading car’s race in the long run to try to defend that one spot at that specific time.

        An example of a driver who let a few cars go for fear of being crashed into was JV at Jerez in 97. His car was wounded by MS and once MS was out JV just needed I believe a sixth or better to seal up the WDC. So in limping the car home and not needing the win to win the WDC, he let the two Macs go, which resulted in Mika Hakkinens first F1 win I believe, because as JV put it afterwards, there was no point in him fighting with the Macs and risking an off for the sake of a win that he didn’t really need points-wise. Unique situation for sure.

        Also, when two teammates are involved in close proximity, there is the golden rule that one should never take out one’s teammate, so in that sense sometimes a car gets let passed or is asked to hold back usually to the rearward driver’s dismay, for fear of a collision.

        These occasions usually depend on the point they are at in the season and how the standings or the math dictates the prudent things to do when all things are considered. I’m sure LH (assuming he has a WDC shot in the end) would rue JB (assuming he’s out of the WDC hunt in the end) not letting him passed, if it meant a race win or the WDC. I’m sure he would have to backtrack on his ‘you never let people past’ comment that he made post-Valencia, if in the end he needed a compliant JB’s help. Lol, can you imagine the furor from LH and the whole team and it’s sponsors if LH lost the WDC and JB just sat there saying, ‘but Lewis…after Valencia you said you never let people past. You have to race for every position.’ (as 400 people at Mac collectively cuff JB upside the head).

        1. There is a counter-argument to that, however, which is that in these days of KERS and DRS, there’s no longer the necessity for a faster driver to have to attack at every corner. By the same token, if you want to overtake someone, you may well lose time by spending the whole lap attacking them, when you would be better off holding back until you can get into the DRS zone, or line up using KERS for an easy slam-dunk pass down a straight. This is where experience counts for a lot, since the sensible driver will choose his moment to launch his attack, while the inexperienced driver will simply attack, often compromising his own race and putting himself at risk of an accident.

          I’d say, however, that even in situations like the ones you describe, with the possible exception of one where you simply need to finish in a certain position to win the championship, there is always something potentially to be gained by defending your position and making your opponent work for the overtake.

          1. @mazdachris…good points…that’s one of the reasons why I dislike KERS and DRS even moreso in F1, but I was also speaking of other race series too. I remain steadfast that it is not always prudent to keep defending if it means the front runners are running away from you. For sure though, most of the time I think you are right that it is prudent to at least initially try to gain something by defending and making the opponent in back work for the overtake, but if it starts costing the lead car time and he is watching the front runners go off into the sunset, then he has to start thinking of the long-term goal. There are so many other things to consider with respect to overall strategy and tire and fuel conservation etc etc. such that a driver can really screw up the whole days plan by trying to defend ad infinitum to the detriment of lap times, and tire and brake conditions. If mega-defending is not costing a driver/his car too much in terms of lap times or flat spotted tires or failing brakes, then by all means go for it. Better for the audience when it happens.

          2. I think that’s irrelevant, we see, race after race, that drivers will attack whenever they can.

        2. This is the best comment I’ve seen here.

          No one saying he should pull-over whenever he sees Maldonado in his mirrors but he should access the strengths of weaknesses of his situation and play the game accordingly.
          Both Alonso and Vettel didn’t defend too hard in Canada when they have had tyres falling off the cliff. They saw the ‘bigger picture’.
          Ultimately you make your own luck and Hamilton going toe to toe with Maldonado on worn tyres is asking for trouble. In an ideal world this obviously wouldn’t be the case but not every driver is Alonso/Kimi/Button when it comes to racing etiquette.

          Hamilton has mentioned that he’ll aim for consistency with podiums and not try any moves too bold and push tyres too far. I think his improved performances this season have benefited as a result but I can’t help but think this was the one time this year when he raced with his heart not his head.

          1. The difference between Alonso and Hamilton is that when Alonso’s tyres were shot in Canada, he didn’t even bother defending, he knew it was over. When Hamilton’s tyres were shot in Valencia, he should’ve been smarter than trying to defend his position against the most reckless driver in F1. I’m not saying it was Lewis’s fault, but he could have been more thoughtful.

            At the end of the day, Alonso left Canada with 10 points while Hamilton left Europe with nothing but his car in the barrier. So, who was the smarter one in hindsight?

    4. HewisLamilton
      15th August 2012, 17:08

      It’s a British site. Of course Hamilton will be highly rated.

      1. No it isn’t – this is a site for F1 fans, regardless of their nationality.

        As has been pointed out countless times before, only around a third of users on the site are British:

        1. HewisLamilton
          16th August 2012, 14:57

          I’m not referring to the users, i am referring to the Author.

          1. Then why didn’t you say so?

            I’ve explained my reasons for rating the drivers as they do. I’m more than happy to discuss the details of their performance and why anyone may disagree with me.

            If you genuinely thought I was some blinkered fool who only rated drivers based on their nationality I doubt you would bother visiting the site in the first place.

  5. I’m wrong about Kimi and Webber. surely Kimi didn’t look struggle while Webber did few times.

  6. So Hamiilton first and Alonso second.

    1. I lol’ed

    2. That would be fear, if you look how Alonso won his races simply due other racers misfortune, in Malaysia Alonso only won because Hamilton had 2 bad pit stops and Ferrari made sure Perez (Sauber-Ferrari) would not overtake Alonso, in Valencia Alonso won due other racers misfortune AGAIN and in Germany Alonos won that race because he had the faster car even said by his own race engineer (go to the Formula1 website and race edith Hockenheim and listen what Alonso’s race angineer say’s)I’m getting a bit tired of the Media and his fans OVERHYPING Alonso

      1. Lol…

      2. You’re kidding, right? Alonso won because of others’ misfortunes at Valencia?? He had the balls to pass 7 cars on his way to his win at Valencia. And Andrea Stella, Alonso’s race engineer said:”Good lap… fastest of the race.” That does not imply that Alonso had the services of the fastest car. And in Malaysia, he didn’t put a wheel wrong, whereas Perez made 2 big errors(one early in the wets when he slid wide at Turn 12), and the other later on while he was chasing Alonso.
        My advice to you: watch the races again, this time with an open mind.

        1. I’m serious!, ”He had the balls to pass 7 cars on his way to his win at Valencia” – Should that not be the standard of the ”so called most complete” race driver ?, he overtook 7 cars but you don’t mention the fact that cars infront of him all had failures ?, or the 12 sec. pit stop that cost Hamilton ? – ”in Malaysia, he didn’t put a wheel wrong, whereas Perez made 2 big errors” – After Sauber-Ferrari told Perez to hold his ground! and in Hockenheim Germany he had the quickest car same like Silverstone where he failed to win in the fasted car, STOP OVERHYPING alonso!

          1. Ha ha….. The cars in front of him all had failures? The only car in front of him who had a failure was Vettel.
            And no one really knows whether Ferrari had the fastest car in Britain and Germany, but people who know about this stuff(like Gary anderson etc) all said that Ferrari was never the quickest car overall. Everyone who knows about F1, has said good things about Alonso. The fact that his teammate(IN THE SAME CAR) has got less than a sixth of his points says a lot too.
            Anyway the only other driver who can possibly lay claim to the no.1 spot, and even he looked listless on Sundays on more than one occasion. With the fastest car on dry conditions he failed to close in on Alonso and Perez in Malaysia. In Bahrain, he failed to pass Alonso in a much slower car. In Monaco and Germany he was insipid.
            You might say that Alonso is overhyped(though I don’t agree with you- Alonso has ben the BEST driver this season.

    3. And if you look how Hamilton has won his races, simply by hard in Canada and in Hungry under pressure from 2 faster Lotusses

  7. The final two could go either way. There is certainly an argument for both outcomes. We shall see on Friday what the author chooses. Spa can’t get here soon enough.

    1. no it cant, if hamilton gets number one, it will make this website look like a joke. he shouldnt even be number 2 with the car he has and the results he has with that great car. alonso is in the 2nd/3rd best car, sometimes only 4th best, and has made much much more of the car he has then hamilton in the best car.

      1. It’s a moot point as the top two are already chosen and written.

        1. You must be laughing at all these comments.. I’m too!!

      2. @kubicfanman I suppose Your opinion has validity if You ignore the circumstances that have led to his points total in that ” great car ” as You say. I don’t care to debate with You over it. Just know that we can have different opinions, not different facts.

        1. Agreed Malibu…kubicfanman needs to keep in perspective the bit of costly bad luck LH has had that was out of his control but within the team’s, and the bit of good luck FA has had amongst his great drives.

          Also, nothing can make this site look like a joke. All opinions abiding by the comment policy are fair game and can be freely debated.

          1. +1000

      3. I haven’t seen the evidence myself that Hamilton has had the best car at every race, as some think. Certainly he has at a few, but there are several when he hasn’t, and probably a few when his car was no better or worse than some others, and it was his driving that made the difference. People also seem to be making the mistake that a cars qualifying pace should be exactly the same as its race pace. I think the assumption that the McLaren is far above the rest during such a competitive season is clearly wrong, and anybody who has taken that incorrect view has got their own driver ratings very much wrong too.

        1. Great point @matt90…who has the best car seems to depend on what weekend we’re talking about this season.

  8. Keith, you could have posted top 5 in one shot… it isn’t like the order for top two is going to be surprise when you reveal it, is it?

    1. @mani517 Obviously I’m not giving away what the order is. But I wanted to write a bit more about the top two and didn’t want to end up with a huge part three so they’re going up on Friday.

  9. Hey Keith you should do a teams ranking as well if you haven’t already, the battle for the constructor’s title is often overlooked but for me is just as interesting as the driver’s, especially this year.

    1. I don’t think it would differ much to what the running order is now :P

      Apart from Williams’ effort has been completely belied by their drivers, it must be said!

  10. I find it comical that there are actually people who call themselves racing fans criticizing Lewis Hamilton for not pulling over for Pastor Maldonado… only eight races into the season… running 2nd in the championship… with a legitimate shot at the podium… and one lap to go… Exactly what kind of racing do you guys wanna see here? Pastor was the muppet who left the circuit & then came back on ramming Hamilton, & you guys are complaining that the driver ahead didn’t move over… classic. Thank goodness the only real involvement you guys have in the sport is writing ridiculous comments on Internet articles, because no real fan of F1 would want to watch drivers pull over everytime the race gets difficult with a lap to go, or go around blaming innocent drivers for others boneheaded mistakes.

    1. @Aldoid Very sensible explanation of a view I agree with totally. Unfortunately there is often a different standard for LH. Wonder why that is? I often see the same irrational disdain for My President here in the states. Folks can never admit it to themselves though.

    2. These haters of course are the one who are blaming LH, look at ”Kubicfanman” for example, i have looking offline on this site for a while now and saw all his negative remarks about Hamilton but yet no word about Button who has the same car as Hamilton

    3. I will make a prediction.

      1. LH will be in a scrum of reporters on a GP weekend, and, looking to escape from Will Buxton’s bad breath :-) he will take a 1/2 step to the left.
      2. Shortly after, a tiny meteorite will fall from space, and hit LH’s toe. While full recovery will be assured, he will not race that weekend.
      3. F1 fans will blame him for putting himself in the way of the meteorite.

    4. @aldoid, Here,here.

    5. No ones complaining. Stop talking about it. What happened happened.. if Maldonado has anything to do with it im sure it will happen again…. so bring it on…

  11. Yeah, personally I would have maybe rated Vettel a tad lower, because I had the impression that he was really not onto it at some of the races. With his stumbling over Karthikeyan’s HRT one of the low-points so far. It does show he can still mature and grow into a truely great driver like Alonso has grown a lot since 2006.

    Nice to see my comment on Kimi made it to the article. Thanks.

  12. ‘Raikkonen had an indifferent final season with Ferrari in 2009 which culminated in the team cutting his contract short by a year.’
    i dont understand how it was indifferent
    yes massa beat him at the start of the season but from hungary that season i remember raikkonen winning a race and finishing on the podium 5 times in a row in a car that was slower brawn gp, red bull, mclaren

    1. @um1234 The relevant part of the 2009 F1 driver rankings is here:

      2009 F1 driver rankings part 2: 15-6

      1. Its sad to read about a Massa showing winning, fighting spirits right after his accident.

        Its something I have hardly ever seen from him lately (toned down when Alonso passed him into the pits in 2010, then Hockenheim and hardly ever getting really close to his team mate made him give up?). I did see him confident after he got his best qualiying in Silverstone. But since that its gone again.

  13. If Alonso is rated as the top driver in the mid season scores at the doors, then I’ll be amazed.

  14. People think Hamilton was to blame for his incident with Maldonado at Valencia??

    Unbelievable. That is one of the lowest tools used to attack Keith’s judgment I’ve seen in a while.

  15. I would say Webber above Raikkonen. he has been just as occasionally lastlustre as Raikkonen, but the difference is that Webber has 2 victories under his belt. Those two being Monaco and Silverstone!

    1. so what?? it would be interesting to see kimi walk away with titles without any wins~~!! winning aint justifying performance, just good for ego

    2. I predict Kimi before Webber in the WCS final table, that’s what counts!

  16. Hamilton will be behind Webber at the end of the year. Just like he was in 09 10 11 and as he is right now. I pay my sales team on results, not potential. Drivers are the same, I don’t care how stylish you are or how popular you are with the sponsors, just bring in the points. And as to Ham and Mal in Valencia; Hamilton should have calculated the good chance that Mal was going to do something desperate and allowed for stupidity. Mal would have taken himself out later anyway. And Mal should have know that Ham was never going to give him anything, just ask Fillipe.

    1. If you’re going with an ‘I pay my sales team on results, not potential’, does that mean that you make mistakes which hinder your sales team and therefore you yourself are responsible for their poorer-than-potential results?

      1. Absolutely right. Grown-ups take into account extenuating circumstances, whether team principals and managers do is another thing. But I don’t believe that team failures at Mclaren are any worse or more frequent than at RBR. Webber lost a combined 24 places on the starts last year and still managed a decent outcome at the end of the season regardless of any perceived failings of the team/strategy. Lewis wanted to give up in Hungary because he had a flat. Theres a difference in attitude.

        1. The differential was damaged and the rear diffussor was damaged , too on Lewis Mp4-27. The car s damage was the reason for him to dNF later. McLaren was not sure about, if the gearbox had took a damage, too by running a damaged car.
          If he had to change the gearbox at the Hungary GP there they would have got a panalty. So Lewis was right, there is not much sense running a damaged car for so many laps.

        2. Webber lost a combined 24 places on the starts last year and still managed a decent outcome at the end of the season

          Not compared to his team mate he didn’t. And the starts were his fault I believe- he’d better make up for it if it was his fault in the first place.

  17. Kimi winning by 1 point from Alonso and Hamilton would be epic :D

  18. Paul Barrass
    16th August 2012, 8:31

    For all those wondering why JB was so high up these listings, James Allen has summarised the work of an Italian paper (Gazetta de sport I think it was) which has an average of driver ratings over the season so far. It’s fascinating to compare against this list, and in some ways is very much closer to the list I have in my head. Definitely worth a visit.

    (For those who don’t know, google James Allen on F1)

    1. Paul Barrass
      16th August 2012, 8:33

      i.e. Massa at the bottom in 24th. JB in second last place with some others….

      1. Taking relative car performance into the account it is understandable. Though Narain still would/should be last.

  19. Nothing new here. Even if Webber wins the title he won’t get the recognition he deserves. Not on F1Fanatic nor anywhere else. It’ll always be some excuse or other, Seb’s Valencia alternator or Seb didn’t have a good breakfast. No matter

    1. In a way he needs to be world champion to get that recognition, he is the best number two at least !

  20. Webber would be more happy that he’s 2nd in the championship than 5th in some voters poll

    Hamilton and Vettel fans looking for excuses

    Top 5: Alonso, Hamilton, Webber, Raikkonen and Vettel

    Based on performance regardless of all the excuses people make

Jump to comment page: 1 2

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

All comments are moderated. See the Comment Policy and FAQ for more.