Vettel reprimanded but keeps pole
2012 Japanese Grand Prix
Sebastian Vettel will keep his pole position for the Japanese Grand Prix after the stewards investigated him for holding up Fernando Alonso.
After three hours the stewards decided he had impeded the Ferrari at the chicane during Q3.
However they decided against awarding Vettel a grid penalty, instead handing him a reprimand.
2012 Japanese Grand Prix
- Kobayashi edges Vettel for top Japanese GP driver
- Rate the race result: 2012 Japanese Grand Prix
- Grosjean: ‘The team’s not happy and I’m not happy’
- No apology needed from Raikkonen – Alonso
- F1 fans’ videos from the 2012 Japanese Grand Prix
Image © Red Bull/Getty images
Eggry (@eggry) said on 6th October 2012, 10:20
One obstacle for cruise to win has been removed.
Juij (@juij) said on 6th October 2012, 10:29
3rd reprimand in a year? wasn’t a penalty?
necrodethmortem (@necrodethmortem) said on 6th October 2012, 11:22
I’m not sure, but I think all he had before this GP was one warning.
davidnotcoulthard said on 6th October 2012, 12:21
Plus the fine he got in his debut?
necrodethmortem (@necrodethmortem) said on 6th October 2012, 14:14
A fine is not something you carry around for the season.
Juij (@juij) said on 6th October 2012, 17:19
Well , this is holding up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcUGC_GoVnc
Don’t we forget!! nothing to do with Vettel today, Alonso is so evil xD
Hopefully someday F1 will be a proper WC
LSL1337 (@lsl1337) said on 6th October 2012, 10:29
what about KOB?
BBQ2 said on 6th October 2012, 10:40
KOB lost time in that sector and did not use KERS or DRS … so no punishment there.
Eggry (@eggry) said on 6th October 2012, 10:42
He already escaped. Telemetry said he didn’t use KERS or DRS.
q85 said on 6th October 2012, 10:46
so what???
Eggry (@eggry) said on 6th October 2012, 10:47
That means he wasn’t speeding.
q85 said on 6th October 2012, 12:25
No it doesn’t. Well it shouldn’t. Plus the incident was a bend. Kers and drs shouldn’t be in equation at all
Eggry (@eggry) said on 6th October 2012, 12:43
I know Kimi spun at the corner but yellow flag section was straight after that.
TheGreatWanderer said on 6th October 2012, 17:00
@eggry
Shouldn’t a yellow flag section be BEFORE the place(where raikkonen spun), so as to warn any approaching drivers??
In any case, apparently Sauber feel they had telemetry data that Kobayashi DID NOT set a ‘faster’ sector time to which the yellow flag section belongs to. That does not mean he lifted off for the yellow flags, unless of course, Sauber also have telemetry data that suggests this, but i didnt notice any place where they have specifically confirmed this!
BBQ2 said on 6th October 2012, 10:39
I do not want know how J-E. Vergne would be feeling right now …. sense of injustice? Maybe, but I think the Stewards want to appear apolitical but no matter their decision, it would still look political. In this case the fight for the WDC.
avegaille (@avegaille) said on 6th October 2012, 10:44
awww, i was hoping he’d get a penalty to make the race more interesting tomorrow.
he’s gonna win from pole to flag now then.
q85 said on 6th October 2012, 10:46
it would be fine if others got reprimanded for similar incidents. but they do not.
Cyclops_PL (@cyclops_pl) said on 6th October 2012, 11:21
Exactly.
OmarR-Pepper (@omarr-pepper) said on 6th October 2012, 17:20
That’s because when others do the same stewards prefer not remembering what happened. But let’s be fair. This years stewards have been right most of the times. I didn’t see this particular move on Tv so I don’t know how strong the move was. To obstacle Alonso? Ferrari is bringing the obstacles to him not giving him a better car!!!
Grosjean´s smile (@testacorsa) said on 7th October 2012, 0:58
+1
chemakal said on 8th October 2012, 12:34
Aha, ask Vergne!
xjr15jaaag (@xjr15jaaag) said on 6th October 2012, 10:50
This puts him 3rd on the all-time pole position list.
And he’s only 25 years old.
Chaplinez (@chaplinez) said on 6th October 2012, 12:47
36 right?
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 14:04
@chaplinez 34 :)
OmarR-Pepper (@omarr-pepper) said on 6th October 2012, 17:21
What else does Vettel have to do to get credit as a great driver?
(and don’t say “be second then”)
Jason (@jason12) said on 6th October 2012, 18:18
@omarr-pepper
Vettel is a good driver (more like Button).
But he’s not great/superfast/out-and-out-racer. Any honest person knows that Vettel’s success so far has been mostly the car.
What he needs (and will still need even he gets 3rd WDC) is a worthy opponent in the same car, so he can prove himself.
His move to Ferrari in 2014 will certainly answer all these questions.
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 18:39
@jason12 @omarr-pepper Any honest person knows that he has performed extremely well throughout his career, even when he was in midfield machinery, therefore his success isn’t any more down to the car than it was for the other champions on today’s grid, or the past.
However, I do not wish to have another long argument about this issue, especially since I didn’t see anybody on this article fail to give credit where credit is due.
Frain stermin (@fanser) said on 6th October 2012, 18:58
Jason 100% agree with you.
Jason (@jason12) said on 6th October 2012, 19:14
@david-a
There’s really nothing to argue about here. Different people will assess talent differently. My assessment says he’s at Button’s level.
There’s a reason though why even Alonso doesn’t rate him (after two successive WDCs).
aka_robyn (@aka_robyn) said on 6th October 2012, 19:29
You mean the “honest” people versus the other people…right?
aka_robyn (@aka_robyn) said on 6th October 2012, 19:32
Oh, and I almost forgot:
http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/58151.html
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 19:44
@jason12
Yes, they’re called mind games. Alonso also said that Massa was one of the best drivers on the grid, in 2012, and that Michael was his toughest rival in 2011, after a disappointing 2010. ;)
Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 6th October 2012, 20:16
And Schumacher’s 7 world championships weren’t “mostly the car”, and Senna’s dominance of 1991 wasn’t “mostly the car” etc etc. I really hate it when people use this argument against him. Do you want to know what shows he’s a great driver? He’s second in the world championship this year (even with his retirement in Valencia) when the McLaren has clearly been he fastest car on average. Sure, Alonso may be leading in a worse car, but quantifying Alonso compared to Vettel doesn’t do him justice: Alonso has the experience and is for sure one of the all-time greats.
34 pole positions in 4 years of full competition; if that isn’t the mark of a great driver then I don’t know what is.
xjr15jaaag (@xjr15jaaag) said on 6th October 2012, 20:22
+1
Jason (@jason12) said on 6th October 2012, 20:50
@vettel1
It’s the mark of a driver who benefited from radical regs changes. Drivers say kind things about each other all the time, however when Alonso has had to make comparisons (this is what he had to say):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEzqCcF2mps
http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/2622840.aspx
Can’t wait for 2014, or for Lewis to somehow find himself at Red Bull.
In closing, I wouldn’t be surprised you’re ‘secretly’ hoping none the above actually happens.
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 22:18
@jason12 – I don’t think you’re being fair here. The regs changed in 2009, but Vettel had already won for Toro Rosso by then, and there were also radical changes in 2005- when Alonso’s Renault team benefited. I doubt you’d start holding that against him.
With regards to the article/video you linked to, you also need to consider that as double reigning champion, Vettel is clearly the target, or common enemy of Alonso and Hamilton. Those comments also contradict the interview that aka_robyn posted.
artificial racer said on 6th October 2012, 22:23
@Jason
In your first video Alonso says Vettel is one of the two most talented drivers on the grid (presumably excluding himself…)
This “outdrive the car” meme is usually complete and utter rubbish. Because nobody wins in crap cars, outside of an occasional fluke or weather-related serendipity.
Great drivers drive to the limit of the car. You cannot go faster. You can make fewer mistakes, you can get closer to the edge, you can find great setup, etc. If Alonso is so wonderful why doesn’t he put his inferior car on pole? Because he can’t outdrive the car. Get over it. He won his championships in the fastest car, or when not the fastest the most reliable. Same with Hamilton, and Schumacher for that matter.
HoHum (@hohum) said on 6th October 2012, 23:36
Let’s put an end to all this;
Question 1: Is Vettel a worthy Champion – Yes.
Question 2: Would Vettel have the record he has if he had been a non European privateer without sponsors or team backing? -
No, but he would be on his way, possibly excited about joining McLaren next year.
91jb12 (@91jb12) said on 6th October 2012, 10:56
Is it 3 reprimands and a grid penalty, or is it 3 reprimands for the SAME OFFENCE before a penalty. Because Vettel got a ridiculous reprimand for laying rubber in a pitbox one race and one for a dodgy pit entry when there wasn’t another car on the circuit to endanger.
Laura (@laurateapot) said on 6th October 2012, 11:10
According to the regs, at least two of the reprimands have to be for driving offences:
sparkus88 (@sparkus88) said on 6th October 2012, 11:41
If the dodgy pitlane entry is counted as a driving infringement then surely it should be a 10 place penalty?
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 6th October 2012, 10:58
Rubbish.
Victor Bardon (@victorbardon) said on 6th October 2012, 10:59
Thanks god, it avoid another “ferrari and alonso are advantaged by the FIA”…
Cyclops_PL (@cyclops_pl) said on 6th October 2012, 11:16
Yet again I don’t understand the FIA’s idea of justice. How they can reprimand a driver for illegal blocking while they have applied a grid penalty to the other driver for the very same offense just hours earlier. FIA, make up your mind. Please.
Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 6th October 2012, 11:31
@cyclops_pl – because Vergne’s antics cost Senna a shot at Q2 and cost him a bucket load of time. Vettel’s was obviously a less seriously impediment.
Cyclops_PL (@cyclops_pl) said on 6th October 2012, 11:38
@vettel1
Then the penalty should be of different severity, for instance 5 for Vergne, 3 for Vettel. A reprimand is a confirmation of actually being guilty of the offense, but it’s by no means a penalty. It’s about whether an offense is penalized or not. It’s obvious that the severity of penalty should be proportionate to the severity of the offense, but such cases as today, when one driver is punished and the other is not, should not be taking place.
Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 6th October 2012, 11:40
Obviously it lacked the severity to merit a penalty, as that would be unfair. A warning was all that was required.
sparkus88 (@sparkus88) said on 6th October 2012, 11:39
yes but does it say anything in the rules about how the following driver is affected makes it a lesser or greater offence. Same offence should result in the same penalty, another inconsistent decision by the stewards.
Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 6th October 2012, 11:42
@keithcollantine – do you know of anywhere that I can get footage of Vettel’s supposed impediment of Alonso? It would be greatly appreciated.
xjr15jaaag (@xjr15jaaag) said on 6th October 2012, 11:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ8cnvSFQLo&feature=player_embedded
davidnotcoulthard said on 6th October 2012, 12:43
@sparkus88
No, and I think that’s why they use Homo Sapiens’ as stewards, not robots. Not everything can be decided as easy as replacing variables in a formula with constants.
Let’s put it this way: If somebody in the USA speeds 60mph (Roughly 100 km/h) above the, say, 35mph speed limit and as a result 10 people are killed then he’s certainly going to court-10 times, and spend the rest of his life in prison. On the other hand, somebody speeding 100 mph (Roughly 160 km/h) above the speed limit which is, say, 90mph on an empty turnpike at 12 in the afternoon the police there will probably fine the second driver only a few hundred dollars, without the need to be prisoned, or go to the court for that matter.
Juij (@juij) said on 6th October 2012, 17:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcUGC_GoVnc
This is obviously more serious xD
xjr15jaaag (@xjr15jaaag) said on 6th October 2012, 11:43
Has anyone actually seen the incident yet?
I heard it wasn’t on the live feed.
Therefore, one should not pass judgement until he/she has seen it.
Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 6th October 2012, 12:22
@xjr15jaaag thanks.
He made an effort to get out of the way and left Alonso the racing line. Perhaps he was a bit sketchy in what direction he was moving to but I don’t believe that, judging from the footage, Alonso lost a lot of time.
I don’t disagree with the stewards decision to reprimand him however.
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 13:09
@xjr15jaaag – Some sense, rather than screaming injustice without having seen the damn incident. Thank you.
mrgrieves (@mrgrieves) said on 6th October 2012, 11:33
I think we should wait and see it before condemn Vettel. I Certainly havent seen it but glad he’s still got pole. Too many races being ruined by penaltys
xjr15jaaag (@xjr15jaaag) said on 6th October 2012, 11:47
Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ8cnvSFQLo&feature=player_embedded
Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 6th October 2012, 12:05
I can see why it’s questionable, but it looks like a block to me. If the team had told Vettel that Alonso was coming, Vettel could have reasonably made it back to the pits before Alonso arrived on the scene at all. You can’t tell me that Vettel was driving slowly to preserve his tyres; it would have taken him all twenty seconds to get to the pit entry, and that’s not going to take even a lap out of the lifespan of his tyres.
The more challenging question is what Red Bull would have done if Webber had been in Vettel’s position – would they have challenged it, or would they have rolled over and taken the penalty?
canberra said on 6th October 2012, 14:53
doesnt look like a block to me, he saw him coming and kept going straight and didnt take the turn, it was jus slightly bad timing, a slight miscalculation. alonso wasnt up in arms about it, and probably his evidence to the stewards helped the resolution.
James_mc (@james_mc) said on 6th October 2012, 15:34
I’m not 100% sure it was a block, but Vettel was certainly taking the mickey by taking so long to negotiate a tight hairpin. Fair enough driving at that pace on the nice wide bit of track preceding it, but the slow entry into the chicane/pit does strike me as a little cynical
mrgrieves (@mrgrieves) said on 6th October 2012, 12:14
Well done! Thanks
He did what he could to get out of the way and even comprised his own run to get out of the way. No Penalty!
If he was to get a penalty what about the 3 drivers who did less than that and blocked Di Resta’s lap in Q2 that was a mess
Brace (@brace) said on 6th October 2012, 13:40
Well that was clearly blocking. What the hell, FIA?
aka_robyn (@aka_robyn) said on 6th October 2012, 13:57
Doesn’t look like anything of the sort to me — but hey, maybe we’re all just seeing what we want to see.
OmarR-Pepper (@omarr-pepper) said on 6th October 2012, 17:25
+1 @aka_robyn
josephrobert (@josephrobert) said on 6th October 2012, 20:12
Also went left, then wanted to pass on the right, he felt he had to pass the redbull as it was so close, which ruined his line into the corner
http://imgur.com/5RLvo
voted block.
DT (@dt) said on 6th October 2012, 11:36
Another clear inconsistency here. Maybe the didn’t want Alonso to have a easy ride to a championship win.
AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 6th October 2012, 11:57
@dt Funny, usually the FIA are branded Ferrari International Assistance. I’ll have to bring this incident up next time Ferrari are ‘favoured’ by the FIA.
F1fanNL (@f1fannl) said on 6th October 2012, 11:51
Here’s http://en.espnf1.com/japan/motorsport/story/90910.html where you can clearly see Vettel ‘blocking’ Alonso.
And the stewards make another joke of themselves…
verstappen (@verstappen) said on 6th October 2012, 12:06
If you look at the clips posted above and read this article from Espn, than I think it was the right decision.
Alonso’s lap was already compromised and the ‘blocking’ was almost non-existing, it was over before the chicane, while Vergne blocked Senna all through the whole chicane.
Fair assessment and decision in both cases.
q85 said on 6th October 2012, 12:33
Reprimand is ok, but others should of got it to.
Yes he got out the way once it was too late and damage was done. His team would of known alonso was coming for about 20 seconds.
By what others have got a pen was the only option to remain consistent.
With red bull advantage it’s vettel’s title to lose now
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1) said on 6th October 2012, 11:57
Well,atleast we wont be hearing “FIArarri” chants tomorrow….
davidnotcoulthard said on 6th October 2012, 12:48
Or a “Ferrari International Assistance” chant…
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1) said on 6th October 2012, 11:57
An utterly unjust decision. Poor Vergne deserved the penalty even less than Vettel did. If Vettel wins the WDC this season,he will probably be the most undeserving and the least meritorious of all the triple champions.
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 13:13
@chicanef1 – How did Vettel deserve a penalty at all?
http://f1.imgci.com/PICTURES/CMS/16300/16320.2.jpg
Aditya Banerjee (@chicanef1) said on 6th October 2012, 13:30
And please do show me a picture taken 3-4 seconds before this one was.
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 13:41
@chicanef1 – http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/10/06/vettel-reprimanded-alonso-block-pole/#comment-1076916
Should Vettel have disappeared? How was “poor Vergne” so much more innocent than that?
LosD (@losd) said on 6th October 2012, 23:35
No need to disappear. Just don’t slow down long before you need to with someone on a fast lap behind you.
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989) said on 6th October 2012, 16:29
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989) said on 6th October 2012, 16:37
this is a clear picture
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989) said on 6th October 2012, 16:39
sorry but i don’t know why the link does not appear
stirper said on 6th October 2012, 13:37
he deserv the penallty is not in that instant the block. look here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ8cnvSFQLo&feature=player_embedded
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 6th October 2012, 14:41
@stirper @brace You’re showing me a video where Vettel moves to the left to get out of Alonso’s way as soon as possible. If that is worthy of a penalty, why not just go back to the 1 lap qualifying system from 2003-2005?
celeste (@celeste) said on 6th October 2012, 15:00
I agree, and I understand that this was under yellow flags, doesn´t this mean that Alonso was going faster than he should be?
Frain stermin (@fanser) said on 6th October 2012, 19:16
This is called blocking. Is opinable if it was intentional or unintentional. Peronally im ok with the system 2003-2005, is more fair than this…it’s strange but i never seen Alonso & Ferrari blocking someone when this duo work together…Red Bull knows that Alonso was coming but didn’t notice….this is bad very bad if it’s like this
Dizzy-A (@david-a) said on 7th October 2012, 22:20
@fanser – No it wasn’t blocking, when SV moves away from the racing line to leave room for Alonso to get through.
Brace (@brace) said on 6th October 2012, 13:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ8cnvSFQLo&feature=player_embedded