Using team orders “wrong” at this stage – Horner

F1 Fanatic round-up

Helmut Marko, Mark Webber, Sebastian Vettel, Christian Horner, Adrian Newey, Korea, 2012In the round-up: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says Red Bull won’t use team orders while both of their drivers are still in contention for the championship.

Links

Top F1 links from the past 24 hours:

Webber free to race Vettel (Sky)

Christian Horner: “Sebastian [Vettel] has moved into the lead and Mark [Webber] still has a chance of winning this championship. I think it would be wrong to impose team orders while Mark still mathematically has a chance of winning.”

Motoring company Cosworth puts itself on sale (The Telegraph)

“Cosworth has been put up for sale by its owners Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven, the former IndyCar racing magnates-turned-venture capitalists, who bought the business from Ford eight years ago.”

Government criticised over refusal to back boycott of Bahrain Grand Prix (The Guardian)

“[The Commons Foreign Affairs Committee] said Bahrain should have been included by the Foreign Office on its list of ‘countries of concern’ in the wake of the ‘brutal’ suppression of anti-government protests last year.”

Williams has ‘many’ driver options (ESPN)

Toto Wolff: “[An announcement] is going to be this year, but we don’t know about the timing yet because we want to concentrate on this season and focus on our current drivers – that’s important. There are many options that we are looking at at the moment and it’s not an easy one.”

Webber: We will not get carried away (BBC)

“The big unknown is still the tyres. They have been such a challenge for everyone this year, and even now, with only four races to go, no team is getting ahead of themselves in believing they really understand what is going on.”

Bottas: Young drivers need more testing (Autosport)

“It is obviously really, really difficult nowadays for young drivers to come up and we don’t need to go so much further back, only a few years ago, there was a lot of testing and younger drivers could get much more mileage.”

Wolff drives an F1 car with De Villota on her mind (Reuters)

“We were in contact a couple of weeks ago and she told me to drive for the both of us now, that I would be out there representing us both.”

Hill to drive the RB6 in Barcelona (Red Bull)

“The 1996 Formula One World Champion will be on hand on Sunday at the Circuit de Catalunya to drive the 2010 championship-winning RB6, taking over from [Sebastien] Buemi, who?ll be at the wheel on Saturday.”

Interview with team principal Monisha Kaltenborn (Sauber)

“Professionally I?m sure gender plays no role. And as I?ve been around for such a long time, I don?t think I?ll be seen more in terms of a woman than a boss. People who are new to the scene might just do a double-take at first, but that will soon settle down.”

Haynes to sell e-books independently (The Bookseller)

“Books available at launch include a Bernie Ecclestone biography, Bernie; Tiff Needell’s Tiff Gear; and Formula 1 title Memories of Senna.”

Respect for Vettel with ‘strings attatched’ (Vinayak Pande on motorsport)

“It seems a little like saying that Jim Clark can?t be considered the all-time great that he is because he only drove cars designed by the late great Colin Chapman. Or that [Jackie] Stewart?s own achievements would be diminished due to Ken Tyrell being the constant in his three titles.”

Vettel seizes the initiative in F1 title battle (Unibet)

My new article for Unibet on Sebastian Vettel taking over the lead of the drivers’ championship and how Lewis Hamilton’s season went wrong.

Tweets

Comment of the day

@Raymondu999 appraises the poultry situation at Ferrari:

Hiring Vettel to partner Alonso would be against the Ferrari tradition of a clear hen and rooster driver line-up. However I’m not too sure on this. Think back to 2009 when they announced Alonso would replace Kimi Raikkonen. At that point in time Felipe Massa was a very good driver, putting in top drives in 2009 despite his car. Given what had transpired the year before, indeed 2009 he could have been driving as the reigning world champion.

I wonder ?ǣ did they predict Massa?s slump in form back then? If not ?ǣ and I have no reason to suspect they did, given their joy at his good performances in the first few races of 2010 ?ǣ then they had every intention of pairing two roosters in the same henhouse.

On the other hand I feel anyone always has to be wary of their job security at Maranello. Montezemolo has shown in the past that he isn?t shy of ousting people as an almost knee-jerk reaction, as shown with replacing Schumacher for Raikkonen in 2006, and then replacing Raikkonen for Alonso in 2009.

Should Alonso fail to win the 2012 and 2013 titles, I don?t think it?s a big stretch of the imagination to see Montezemolo ousting Alonso for Vettel.
@Raymondu999

From the forum

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On this day in F1

Nigel Mansell led a Williams one-two in the Mexican Grand Prix 25 years ago today.

With team mate Nelson Piquet second, Mansell remained in contention for the championship with two rounds to go.

The race was stopped shortly before half the original distance after Derek Warwick crashed heavily. Piquet led the second part of the race but with the race being decided on aggregate time Mansell only had to sit behind him to ensure victory.

Riccardo Patrese came third for Brabham, which turned out to be the last they achieved with BMW power, and only one more would follow for the team.

Here’s the start of the race:

Image ?? Red Bull/Getty images

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118 comments on Using team orders “wrong” at this stage – Horner

  1. Jake (@jleigh) said on 18th October 2012, 0:10

    That list of Hamilton’s problems at the end of Keith’s article really is something! He’s probably made the least number of mistakes of all drivers this season, but it really highlights how much F1 is a team sport.

    • celeste (@celeste) said on 18th October 2012, 1:09

      My father always talks about “the luck of the champion”, and how most of the times the champion, or the man consider to be the best tends to have a very good luck… maybe with so many champions in the grid luck have been distributed and Hamilton didnt get the big piece…

      • Mike (@mike) said on 18th October 2012, 2:21

        It seems to me, Hamilton loses focus when things aren’t going his way, and it’s disappointing. Alonso is the complete opposite, he pushes no matter what, and that’s why he’s still in it at this late stage of the championship.

        Hopefully the Mercedes clean start will do him good on a personal level.

        Also, nice one Keith, putting your article at the bottom. The funny thing about being humble is that only others can say when you have it.

        • andrewf1 (@andrewf1) said on 18th October 2012, 7:33

          @mike how on earth can you say Hamilton loses focus – ie. Hamilton’s fault – even after the article presents you with a full list of the problems this year, none of which were his fault. alonso is still in it because his team hasnt made one mistake all year long, except maybe in canada (in hindsight), not because he’s more committed than hamilton. mclaren had a disaster year – comparable to 2005, when again they the best car and failed to finish races and score points. do you only attribute that year to alonso’s determination over raikkonen’s as well?

          some anti-hamilton fans around here are just…it’s just sad to watch.

          • Zubair (@zubair380) said on 18th October 2012, 7:51

            +1 totally agree

          • JCost (@jcost) said on 18th October 2012, 8:47

            +1.

            McLaren pits and mechanical issues destroyed his chances.

          • Mike (@mike) said on 19th October 2012, 2:07

            I’m not anti Hamilton, so get off that high horse. And I’m not talking about his problems at all, and yes, he’s had his fair share. And I acknowledge that. Although I don’t agree that bad luck has singled out him particularly more than say, Button.

            I’m talking about his actual pace. On his day, he is the quickest guy out there. But unlike other years, his days are few and far between. And once things start to go against him, it’s like he falls into a rut. And this is happening race after race. I’m not saying that he isn’t extremely quick, but he just can’t do what Alonso does, and that’s ring out every bit of chance he gets, for all it’s worth.

          • Mike (@mike) said on 19th October 2012, 2:08

            I just think, that considering his high standard, this isn’t his best year.

        • Jason (@jason12) said on 18th October 2012, 10:57

          @mike
          I think you’ve lost focus Mike, most of Lewis’ problems were not his fault or anything in his control.

        • matt90 (@matt90) said on 18th October 2012, 11:31

          I haven’t seen a thing to suggest that he’s lost focus, other than perhaps his disappointing qualifying in Japan, which he compensated for at the next race.

      • leotef (@leotef) said on 18th October 2012, 2:23

        Hamilton didnt get even a small piece…

        Couldn’t resist making a correction as far as a luck is concerned.

  2. Kimi4WDC said on 18th October 2012, 0:10

    COTD: Last sentence, that exactly what will happen. LdM sold his soul to Santander and for that Alonso will not bring him any titles. He will have to reboot whole thing and by the time Vettel will be a perfect candidate, four times Champion :)

    • celeste (@celeste) said on 18th October 2012, 1:28

      Montezemolo sold his soul????

    • Todfod (@todfod) said on 18th October 2012, 7:00

      I dont understand the point of your statement. Are you saying Alonso is a pay driver and isn’t capable of delivering a title… while Vettel is more likely to win titles for Ferrari?

      • JCost (@jcost) said on 18th October 2012, 8:58

        I don’t know what he means but certainly it’s not that Alonso is a pay driver. It’s quite clear that Alonso is one of the best drivers on the grid but we cannot discount that he brings an important sponsor with him and Ferrari or any other team would be full to overlook this fact. It’s like Perez, he’s fast and is connected to the world’s richest man.

        • stirper said on 18th October 2012, 11:42

          “It’s quite clear that Alonso is one of the best drivers on the grid”
          Alonso is the best driver in the grid.

          • F1fanNL (@) said on 18th October 2012, 13:46

            No, he had it right when he said “one of the”.

          • tvm (@) said on 18th October 2012, 16:28

            Lets see him complete one season witouth team names deliberately crashing for him or “he’s faster than you” remarks from the pitwall before we call that shall we?

          • stirper said on 18th October 2012, 16:43

            like or not like, hate or not hate

            “Fernando Alonso is the best driver on the grid” L.Hamilton
            http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/Hamilton-admits-Ferrari-talks,50580.html

          • David-A (@david-a) said on 18th October 2012, 17:08

            @stirper – Ham and Alo have been pretty friendly & complimentary towards each other, ever since gaining a common enemy.

          • tvm (@) said on 18th October 2012, 17:13

            To lie or not to lie, to invent my own quotes or not to invent my own quotes.

            That’s not the quote on that page, it’s clearly a distinction between Vettel and Alonso.

            He admitted he hopes Ferrari’s Alonso – his former McLaren teammate – beats Sebastian Vettel to the world championship.

            “I still think Fernando is the best driver. The cleanest, the most sensitive, the most complete,” said Hamilton.

            What gets me though is why would you as a person give up your integrity and credibility by inventing your own quotes, care to explain?

            Right after you explain why the best driver on the grid needs team orders to win:)

          • TVM have you not been watching f1 long? or just missing the obvious that fernando alonso is actually something quite special. If you like him or not (same goes for seb and lewis) he is a special driver. If you cant see that, then im not sure why or what you are watching F1 for.

            Has seb had team orders to help him. YES. has lewis Yes, has michael YES. so really isnt much more to say is there? NO.

            As for singapore, give it a rest it was clear flav needed a win to keep renault in the sport (go back to the time and remember what was happening politically). Fernando did not need to take that risk for one win that meant very little (he was not in title race). Whatever you say about fernando he is pretty clever and a calculated risk taker…that is not a risk he would of taken.

            As for the strategy he was on the same one as red bull and rubens was on who both qualified lower than they expected and wanted to stop early to get clean air. Were they in on it too?? lol

          • tvm (@) said on 18th October 2012, 22:34

            Q85
            Of course he is, he’s among the 3 best, I just don’t think he is THE best, to much whining, not enough edge, too many team orders.
            As to Singapore you have a choice, either he knew or he is not as clever as you make him out to be…

      • raymondu999 (@raymondu999) said on 18th October 2012, 17:10

        @todfod I think @Kimi4WDC isn’t talking about driving logic at all – but rather karmic poetic justice of sorts.

  3. Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 18th October 2012, 0:16

    I wonder who Williams could be considering outside Maldonado, Senna and Bottles? With Hulkenberg (supposedly) off to Sauber, I’m guessing Jaime Alguersuari could be in the mix (since he was rumoured for that Sauber seat). Williams might also be considering Kamui Kobayashi; I’ve long thought that he fits the mold of an old-school Williams driver. Robin Frijns is also said to be talking with them on some level, and since he’s set Formula Renault on fire, they might consider promoting him sooner rather than later.

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 18th October 2012, 9:15

      @prisoner-monkeys you wonder. I wish. I wish they put KOB in tha car.

      Despite some erratic performances, I’d stick with Maldonado (and his dollars) because he’s fast and seems to be learning from his early season mistakes. I’d let Bruno go and give Kamui a chance.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 18th October 2012, 9:26

        @jcost – Well, Maldonado’s money means that Williams could probably afford to take someone on talent alone, but I just can’t see Sir Frank taking a driver – any driver – that another team let go because they weren’t performing as expected. Yes, the team took Senna, but they were in a shaky position financially, and the contract with PDVSA is believed to see the company pay Williams more with each passing year. Given that the team has improved by leaps and bounds – even if the drivers don’t always show it – since last year, they no longer need Senna or his money. Money certainly helps, but I think Williams are certainly at the point where they can strike out.

        In that case, Bottas, Alguersuari or Frijns would be my bet for the seat.

    • Fernando Cruz said on 18th October 2012, 11:57

      Senna will surely improve in a second year with Williams, just like Maldonado improved pace wise after his first year in the team. Bringing Alguersuari, Buemi or Frinjs would be a step back as two of them have been out this year and the other has no experience at all. Only Bottas could make sense, as he’s been prepared to be promoted and knows the car very well thanks to testing and FP1s. Even Kobayashi wouldn’ t do better than Senna can do in a second year with Williams.

      • RAMBO said on 18th October 2012, 12:20

        Maldonado was a rookie last year and he was generally really close to Barrichello last year, if not ahead. Senna isn’t anywhere near Maldonado’s pace and had already driven one and a half year in F1. It isn’t coming anymore.

        • Fernando Cruz said on 18th October 2012, 13:52

          Senna is often quicker than Maldonado in races. He’s been far behind only in qualifying in a year he loses FP1 almost everywhere, which shows in qualifying. Furthermore he tends to be more and more adapted to the performance window of the tyres and next year that window will be larger, which will suit his style more. So, it’s a question of time for him to be quick again in qualifying, just like he ever was before, in GP2 and last year with Lotus.

          • GT_Racer said on 18th October 2012, 17:24

            Senna is often quicker than Maldonado in races.

            True, something a lot of the engineers at williams point to when you talk to them.

            I said a while back that when you talk to the guys (mechanics, engineers, strategits etc….) at Williams, They would pretty much all prefer to keep Senna for 2013.
            The thing is that they know & understand where Bruno’s problems have been this year & a big chunk of it has been getting the front tyres to work in qualifying.
            Pastor has a very aggressive turn in which gets the fronts upto temperature quicker, Bruno prefers to be less aggressive (Hence why his tyre wear is often better over a race stint) but this takes the fronts longer to get into the right temperature operating window.

            Bruno’s detractors will shout “excuse”, The Williams engineer’s who have all the data don’t believe it is.

            Pastor has the money so he’s locked into that seat, Bottas also has a decent amount of backing which is why he got the Friday runs in place of Bruno in the 1st place.
            The Williams engineer’s are impressed with Bottas, However many are unsure he’s ready for a race seat based on the data. The phrase “Fast but very inconsistent on longer runs” has put around a lot.

          • Eleanore (@leucocrystal) said on 19th October 2012, 2:52

            I appreciate your continued insight, GT_Racer. I’ve been following his career for years now, and it sounds like more of what I’ve heard in the past (re: teams being happy with Senna’s performance, and particularly his technical feedback). It would certainly be ideal for him for Williams to retain him, but it seems just about everyone has assumed it won’t happen, and that’s unfortunate. I really hope to see him still racing somewhere next year.

    • VoiseyS (@voisey) said on 18th October 2012, 13:28

      Would that mean that Senna could move to Caterham to replace Petrov?

      • GT_Racer said on 18th October 2012, 17:29

        Very likely that Charles Pic will be replacing Petrov at Caterham.

        Marussia would actually like to retain Pic as he’s impressed them, However Glock & Pic had a big falling out & have subsequently not spoken to one another since before Silverstone. The team all love Glock as he’s really helped that team grow so they don’t want to get rid of him, Thats why Pic’s the one on the way out.

        • Glock’s career path is one of the most curious aspects of F1 today

          you cant help but think what happened???

        • Eleanore (@leucocrystal) said on 19th October 2012, 2:33

          Interesting, because it seems there’s been a good amount of chatter recently tying Senna to a potential move to Caterham. Silly season has been especially nuts this year though, so I suppose that doesn’t mean much…

  4. Guilherme (@guilherme) said on 18th October 2012, 0:19

    Erm, @keithcollantine, on your Unibet article…

    Montezemolo also provided a reminder of the single-mindedness with which Ferrari pursue success. He dismissed rumours that Vettel could partner Alonso at the team from 2014, saying he did not want “two drivers who race for Ferrari and not for themselves”.

    There’s a troublesome “not” there changing the whole meaning of the sentence! :P

    • Robbie (@robbie) said on 20th October 2012, 2:43

      “Montezemolo also provided a reminder of the single-mindedness with which Ferrari pursue success. He dismissed rumours that Vettel could partner Alonso at the team from 2014, saying he wanted “two drivers who race for Ferrari and not for themselves”.”

      That’s how I read his article and the quote I just copied and pasted.

      In your quote, did you add ‘did not’ and take away the ‘ed’ at the end of want?

      Because Keith has it right…LdM wants a clear number one and a support driver, both driving for the team’s best interest, not two top drivers driving for themselves.

      I don’t support this philosophy myself because I think it robs us of true racing in the pinnacle of racing, but the point is Keith has LdM’s words and sentiment right.

  5. raymondu999 (@raymondu999) said on 18th October 2012, 0:24

    I was wondering what you meant by “poultry” situation – I thought you meant “paltry” but had a Freudian slip. Now I realise that it was due to all the hens and roosters flying about…

  6. HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th October 2012, 0:36

    Poor Massa, now a poultry #2 at Ferrari.

  7. Coanda (@ming-mong) said on 18th October 2012, 0:39

    This is just fluff by CH. There faces on the pit wall when Mark took pole in Korea said it all. They have used team orders in the past (much earlier in the season) & will execute it again if Mark is in front or is hustling Vettel. It would have been more interesting to see how the team handled Korea if the DRS wasn’t disabled and Webber was a little more closer around the pit stops & the end of the race.

    • celeste (@celeste) said on 18th October 2012, 1:17

      We are talking Mark Webber… the guy will not be so tammed, he is surely not a hen, about getting team orders (2010 and 2011 Silverstone, anyone?)… And by any standard I think both Mark and Vettel had been in their best behaivoir the hold year, doing passes to each other, and racing… I think even when Vet/ Web aren´t the best of friends, they at least respect each other as much and I think is at some point Web decide to help Vet it will be more on his own will than Horner giving the order…

    • David-A (@david-a) said on 18th October 2012, 1:17

      How they would have handled Korea, is neither here nor there, because MW wasn’t closer during the race. There was nothing to handle because of the driver’s respective race pace (as usual).

      The thing I will go against Horner for is the way he denies they will use TO. He cannot seriously believe Mark can really win this from 63 points down on Vettel, I mean come on!

    • RAMBO said on 18th October 2012, 1:25

      The only reason wasn’t closer to Vettel is because Vettel went faster then Webber. He got away better, stayed in front of Webber en drove away from him. So there are now ifs and buts from last race, not at all.

      • JCost (@jcost) said on 18th October 2012, 9:19

        +1.

        Mark is fast but Vettel is faster. I too think Vettel is Marko’s fave but IMHO he’s “on merit” because Marko favours him because he’s faster, not because his eyes are greener.

        Disclaimer: I hate team orders.

        • Coanda (@ming-mong) said on 18th October 2012, 13:34

          @jcost

          I would like to see fairer weight distribution rules so there are no anomalies. It baffles me that in sport that measures everything down to the minute measurements that this has not been addressed. Every driver should have ballast placed in the seat so every driver + seat + ballast should equal 100KG. Vets is over 15KG lighter than Webber which gives him more freedom to place more ballast around the car which can influence set up & tyre degradation.

          • F1fanNL (@) said on 18th October 2012, 13:56

            It doesnt work that way. Webber is tucked down into the car just as much as Vettel. Whether that’s balanced with him being able to extend his legs more or something else I don’t know but just because Webber is 15 kg heavier doesn’t mean he’s got a 15kg disadvantage. For all we know, because Mark is bigger, the weight distribution could be even better for him in that his weight helps lower or center the point of gravity.

            Also, from what I understand, the distribution of weight to get the car to meet the regs is very limited. I could be wrong though but that’s what I remember.

          • David-A (@david-a) said on 18th October 2012, 15:24

            @ming-mong – Oh come on, Lewis is also much lighter than Jenson, yet I wouldn’t find anyone complaining that weight distribution is the reason for the difference in speed there.

          • Coanda (@ming-mong) said on 19th October 2012, 5:52

            @david-a

            Lewis not that much lighter than Jenson, he is 4KG lighter than JB & Vettel 17KG lighter than Mark. I am not saying this is the reason for any speed differentiation, I would just like this rule fairer so that any doubt can be taken out of the equation. It must also frustrate Mark that lighter drivers are able to distribute more ballast to help there setup. I think my idea (mentioned above) is as fair as it will get.

            LH – 68KG @ 174cm
            JB – 72KG @ 182cm
            SV – 58KG @ 176cm
            MW – 75KG @ 185cm

      • BasCB (@bascb) said on 18th October 2012, 10:38

        Personally I do think that there was also a lack of incentive from Webber to get right on Vettels back in the closing stages, probably because he knows full well, that the team would not be positive if he would have a go at passing his teammate in the closing stages.

        But before that, Vettel got the better start, made it stick during the first lap and then drove away, helped a bit by the yellow flags not enabling DRS use, but he drove away anyhow.

        I think that Red Bull know full well that they need to avoid a situation where team orders would be used, except to really nail a title in the last race or 2. Instead they make Webber push as hard as he can, and Vettel reacts by going a notch faster, and consequently is able to win. That feels like a healthy team spirit to me.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 18th October 2012, 8:35

      @ming-mong

      Their faces on the pit wall when Mark took pole in Korea said it all.

      I think it’s highly disingenuous to make that point while ignoring the context of similar scenes when Vettel has taken pole position in a Red Bull one-two. It’s not as if you have to look far to find an example, it happened just one week earlier at Suzuka.

      Compare the first shot of the pit wall after the end of Q3 on both weekends and they look little different. Not that you can really see the expressions of anyone besides Adrian Newey.

      At best I think you’re reading way too much into this, at worst skewing things to show Red Bull in a negative light.

      Red Bull have made some odd team calls in the past and I understand why some question their commitment to equality. But I find it hard to believe Horner would say something like this if he wasn’t certain he won’t order Webber to pull over for Vettel in India and look like a hypocrite. After all, it’s the same policy they pursued in 2010.

  8. HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th October 2012, 0:48

    No team orders at RBR, because they are not necessary, Webber knows the script, he can race for a win against every driver, except Vettel unless Vettel is out of contention. As noted by Horner he followed the script perfectly at Korea.
    Another reason to like Mark, who else would admit he won because the other guys team chose a bad tyre strategy.

    • RAMBO said on 18th October 2012, 1:27

      Why would Webber start bad on purpose with the risk of losing places to Hamilton and Alonso. Why would he re-attack Vettel come turn 3? Why wasn’t he able to stay close to Vettel if he was “just following the script”.

      • leotef (@leotef) said on 18th October 2012, 2:49

        Script or not, my wild guess is that;
        (1) Mark is slightly heavier than Vettel, so tends to be not so good in start relative to Vettel
        (2) Very tiny tweak of clutch in the car can cause huge difference at the end of turn 1 while Vettel had some sort of booster or launcher suspected to be used MSC era. :D

        • raymondu999 (@raymondu999) said on 18th October 2012, 3:28

          @leotef point number 1 doesn’t really hamper the start though. The cars all start with the same weight. Mark’s weight will disdvantage him slightly in other areas, but not at the start.

          To be honest @HoHum – the smart way to do any team orders would be with a gap. And to be honest, it was probably just a bad start. Look at grid slots 1-8. By turn 2, the race order was (in terms of where they started the race), 2, 1, 4, 3, 6, 5, 8, 7.

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th October 2012, 5:57

            @raymond999, I am not saying that Webber fluffed the start, either on purpose or otherwise, the grid favoured the even numbers and MW knew there would be a challenge from SV that he would have to yield to, which is why he did not cover the inside line to turn 1. Being side by side at the end of the straight was a good tactic to prevent other cars from passing. I have no doubt that had SV fluffed his start MW would not have waited for him to catch up but as long as Vettel could put a nose alongside Webber was going to yield.
            As I wrote after qualifying on Saturday if Webber failed to yield and they touched it would be Webbers fault and if Webber yielded it would also be his fault.
            All the crowing from the Vettel fans has proved me right on that.

          • leotef (@leotef) said on 18th October 2012, 7:39

            Yeah all the dirty side cars gained position during the start. Matter fact, it was not disadvantage being at dirty side but was advantage. Maybe they got to shuffle the grid.

          • F1fanNL (@) said on 18th October 2012, 14:16

            @ HoHum,

            Your argument is that Webber would yield to a challenge from Vettel. Why? Because he’s done so in the past? LOL.

            Webber didn’t cover the inside line because Webber knows that his line is the fastest line through turn 1. As evident by him being able to pull alongside Vettel. The run out of turn 3 is what determined who would take the lead. Vettel got through the corner better than Webber. although you probably feel Webber ‘gave up’ at that point.

            I know this is just another one of your attempts to diminish Vettel’s accomplishments and that I’m probably waisting time commenting but I see no reason whatsoever why Webber would yield to a challenging Vettel.

          • A team would be crazy to use team orders at the start as the chances of loosing out to other teams in the process is considerable. If a team wanted to impose team orders it`s much safer to do it in the pits or later in the race.

            Red Bull doesn`t need to impose team orders as Vettel is faster than Webber. This fact has been demonstrated time and time again in 2009, 2010, 2011 and now 2012. How much more proof do people need to accept this proven fact.

            I can totally understand why Red Bull prefer Vettel in P1 after qualifying instead of Webber. Vettel has a skill Webber doesn`t have, the ability to disappear. If Vettel leads into the first corner more often than not his lead will be between 1-2 seconds after lap 1. Give it another lap and the lead will be 2-3 seconds or more. Then the race is basically Red Bulls to loose as the cushion they need to control the race is allready in place. Webber is not able to do this and is more vulnerable to cars with better top speed come DRS. Red Bull feel more confident when Vettel is P1 in qualifying than when Webber is in the same position, that`s natural.

            The ability to be very fast on lap 1 is a quality reserved for very few drivers. Senna was one of them, and so is Vettel. What you need is a fantastic feel for the grip level of your tyres. I think it`s a quality some individuals are born with, it`s difficult to learn unless you got it.

        • katederby (@katederby) said on 18th October 2012, 8:58

          Peter Windsor made a point about Webber’s starts, that they could be affected by his extra weight, specifically weight distribution which is an advantage to the lighter man, ie Vettel. But this is something rarely mentioned… but look at the grid, the heavier drivers are not the best at getting off the start. I do, like Peter also accept Webber has had problems and his bad start in Korea was hampered by being on the wrong side, considering there was virtually not clean/dirty side advantage, as Vettel said on the grid before the race.

          • raymondu999 (@raymondu999) said on 18th October 2012, 17:13

            @katederby The cars all start with the same weight. Mark’s weight will disdvantage him in CofG, but no longer in weight distribution, thanks to the weight distribution rules that came in in 2011. The increased CofG will indeed disadvantage him slightly in other areas, but not at the start.

      • HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th October 2012, 6:05

        @rambo, Why would Webber use up his tyres following Vettel whom he would not pass, better just to ease off and cover Alonso and then set FASTEST lap to show what he could have done.

        • crr917 (@crr917) said on 18th October 2012, 7:54

          Combined best sector times of Vettel are better than Webber’s. 1:41.746 vs 1:41.980

        • RAMBO said on 18th October 2012, 12:29

          Cause a fastest lap means Webber was quicker the entire race? Like a gap of 10 seconds a few laps before the end doesn’t mean anything? Webber was probably playing with the buttons on his steeringwheel all race long and then he decided “now I’m going to show I am quicker then him by setting the fastest lap, then I can go on playing Pong on my steeringwheel”.

          Alonso was never a real danger for Webber if nothing abnormal happened. So he could well have gone proving he had the same/quicker pace then Vettel, but he didn’t. He just finished the race and only started to gain on Vettel, when Vettel was warned to ease of becauces of the front tyre. Yet he still finished 8 seconds ahead of Webber.

          It seems a lot of people have a hard time admitting Vettel was generally faster then Webber. He was faster on saturday, but he blew his last lap, he was faster on sunday and proved it by being faster then anyone, even though he didn’t get the fastest lap.

        • F1fanNL (@) said on 18th October 2012, 14:18

          Vettel was quicker than Webber in his last lap and looked to set the fastest lap before he caught up to a Marussia.

        • katederby (@katederby) said on 18th October 2012, 18:56

          @raymondo999 I’m just recalling what Peter Windsor was saying yesterday and I’m sure he’s aware of the 2011 regs regarding weight distribution… maybe he was referring to CofG. And I don’t see why some people refuse to accept that a driver’s weight affects the car’s performance? If it didn’t then why on earth would Webber live by a diet and exercise regime that leaves him decidedly underweight for his height. Personally I wouldn’t want to give up crisps etc for 10 years for no particular reason!

          • raymondu999 (@raymondu999) said on 19th October 2012, 0:43

            @katederby driver weight DOES affect performance, but now only by CofG. Bear in mind Peter Windsor is (unfortunately) not the best technical F1 mind. But driver weight does not affect startline performance. It’s not that it’s affected by a negligible amount – but the start is NOT affected. Other things such as tyre wear are more affected.

  9. celeste (@celeste) said on 18th October 2012, 1:01

    “It seems a little like saying that Jim Clark can’t be considered the all-time great that he is because he only drove cars designed by the late great Colin Chapman. Or that [Jackie] Stewart’s own achievements would be diminished due to Ken Tyrell being the constant in his three titles.”

    Very nice article, and the guy has a point, you can dismissed the achivement of a driver jusr because he happens to be in a good team, and with a good technical team… more tham half of F1 titles will be meaningless by that standard… I don´t remember were I read that another messure of a great driver is to take advantange of the car he is giving and y any standard few driver have done that as well as Vettel has done…

    • thejudge13 (@thejudge13) said on 18th October 2012, 17:48

      Sir Jack has moved on today – he’s talking sexy in F1Racing magazine. Apparently “An [F1] car is like a woman, cornering is like bringing her to climax”.

      More interestingly isn’t the best car/best driver debate philosphically circular. If JEV wins the 2013 title in a Torro Rosso – is he a great driver or will he have the best car?

  10. Ed Marques (@edmarques) said on 18th October 2012, 2:02

    Sure Christian…

  11. Jay Menon (@jaymenon10) said on 18th October 2012, 2:27

    So..will Cossie’s be around for 2014?…the chances are slim.

    Lets hope Honda makes a comeback!

  12. Eleanore (@leucocrystal) said on 18th October 2012, 3:00

    Can’t disagree with Bottas on principle; I don’t think anyone is a fan of the overall lack of testing in F1 right now, either for young drivers or for current drivers and their teams. However, I find it a bit funny to hear the complaint coming from him specifically, since I don’t think any other reserve driver in the field right now has enjoyed as much time in one of the current spec cars as he has. (Someone do correct me if I’m wrong, but he’s driven in 12 FP1 sessions this year and will get three more before it ends.)

    • HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th October 2012, 6:10

      @leucocrystal, I’ll bet that none of the test drivers ever felt that they had enough track time.

    • eskopeso said on 18th October 2012, 12:43

      The fact that he’s had a lot of testing in free practice gives him a great position to say that, because he’s not just trying to get himself more testing by bringing attention to the problem.

    • @leucocrystal – I guess what Bottas was actually trying to say is that he would want more time in that car…racing. Something along those lines. :)

      Jokes aside, young drivers DO need more testing and more time to get used to the car on the same race tracks current drivers race on. This, I think, would reduce the lux of average and reckless drivers that come directly through GP2 or GP3, at least. And that’s a thing F1 needs at the moment. If the whole trend wasn’t cost reduction nowadays I would have said letting midfield and backmarker teams (let’s say 6th to 12th in the WDC) bring a 3rd car in FP1 isn’t such a bad idea for the FIA to consider. But…

      • Eleanore (@leucocrystal) said on 18th October 2012, 21:27

        Oh, I definitely agree with that, and like I said, I agree with Bottas on principle. But then again, I guess it’s just a symptom of a larger problem really, in that there isn’t enough testing allowed in F1 across the board right now. And that’s a real shame.

  13. AdrianMorse (@adrianmorse) said on 18th October 2012, 3:11

    Re COTD: Massa and Raikkonen were both very fast but also easy going, in contrast to Alonso and Vettel, who strike me as more demanding and political.

    If you consider Germany 2010, for instance, where Alonso shouted “This is ridiculous” over the radio as Massa defended his first position, I can’t imagine either Massa or Raikkonen complaining over the radio in this fashion. Vettel, on the other hand, I can easily imagine imploring his team to be let through.

    • raymondu999 (@raymondu999) said on 18th October 2012, 3:31

      @adrianmorse it takes two to tango. Massa and Raikkonen weren’t political, but they were quick, and they weren’t pushovers. Could you imagine the 2007/2008 Massa, or Raikkonen (then reigning champ, let’s not forget) complying to a team order or letting Alonso through?

      They did in 2007/2008 shuffle the positions – but those were times when the other was already out of title contention.

  14. Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989) said on 18th October 2012, 5:44

    According to Autosprint an american delegation of IndyCar is visiting italy for the organisation of an IndyCar race in 2013 , the circuit which will host the event is one of these 3 : Mugello,Imola or Vallelunga & the date of the race will be maybe in June or September

  15. HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th October 2012, 6:49

    I just logged onto Indycar.com to find out more about the cars but I could not find any information at all on the cars, so sad. I guess this will be the same for F1 in the not to distant future.

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