Hamilton: title defeat is “heartbreaking”

F1 Fanatic round-up

Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, Korea International Circuit, 2012In the round-up: Lewis Hamilton says he’s “heartbroken” as his championship hopes are virtually over.

Links

Top F1 links from the past 24 hours:

Hamilton heartbroken as title hopes end (The Telegraph)

“I’m not happy with the result because I’ve lost the world title, so it’s heartbreaking, but that’s the way it goes.”

I?m Not Going To Ferrari, Says Vettel (Speed)

“Nothing has changed. It’s quite amusing. I don’t know where it came from. I don’t read much, so it’s quite a surprise when you get to the circuit and get all these questions.”

Schumi resigned to low-key end (Sky)

“I’m not very sentimental about it. As long as I can fight for top positions I do my job as much as I can and try to help and support the team and get things ready for them for next year as much as is possible.”

Ecclestone: Budget cap F1’s best option (Autosport)

“Ecclestone is in no doubt that the budget cap – which he wants to set at ??155 million ($250 million) for 2014 – will be better than trying to bring in other cost cut measures. ‘We are looking at the right way to put it in,’ explained Ecclestone.”

Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone unperturbed by smaller crowds at second edition of Indian Grand Prix (India Today)

“It would be better to have a driver from the country. I think Narain (Karthikeyan) should be driving a Force India. You (media) should talk to Vijay and see what he says; after all, one has to look at the best option. But if we saw Michael (Schumacher) in a Red Bull (over the last three years), he would have been a different Michael.”

Time running out for Alonso (BBC)

McLaren sporting director Sam Michael: “The performance can swing from one track to the other by a couple of tenths, and that’s all there is in it at the moment – 0.2-0.3s in terms of qualifying. [...] If Ferrari have a competitive car, then obviously Alonso can still do it.”

Vijay Mallya to reveal drivers’ line up next month (The Times of India)

“Mallya said with a ‘bit of luck’, they can still snatch the sixth position from Sauber in the Constructors’ table.”

Indian GP – Conference 4 (FIA)

Sebastian Vettel: “There are a lot of people here: 1.3 billion or more so quite incredible and just to see that, to see how people live here, to see the culture, I think is very very different. In life, I think a lot is always about expectations and in Europe expectations are very very high. Money plays a big role whereas here, I think, expectations are fairly low. Money is not that important. It doesn’t matter how old you are. I think it’s more important to have a healthy, happy life, to enjoy your life with your family, with your kids. Sometimes to compare the circumstances you live in, here in India compared to Europe – obviously I grew up in Germany – it’s black and white, it’s very different but it’s nice to see that the people are so happy, warm-hearted. I think it would definitely be nice to spend a little bit more time to travel around and get more of an idea.”

Williams and Senna ’13 (Compton Grand Prix)

“[Valtteri] Bottas won the 2011 GP3 Championship but strangely didn?t enter the GP2 Championship this season, instead concentrating on his frequent Friday morning drives for Williams. There is no doubt that the young Finn is fast, but he is inexperienced and frankly now out of practice in a race situation so I can?t understand why Williams would be considering pushing a regular points scorer out of the team to bring in an unknown quantity.”

Tweets

Comment of the day

Nico Hulkenberg is having a strong end to the season which could play well for Force India, reckons Antonio Nartea (@tony031r):

Hulkenberg?s strong performance for the third weekend in a row combined with Sauber?s second consecutive no-points finish means Force India can put some real pressure on them now. Nico single-handedly took 12 points out of the advantage Sauber had in only two Grands Prix. It?s only 23 points between them in the constructors’ championship now with three races to go. A couple of sixth and eighth finishes for the FI duo and the job is done and sealed. It?s a fight that should provide for some hot moments in the midfield.
Antonio Nartea (@tony031r)

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On this day in F1

Sebastian Vettel took pole position for the first ever Indian Grand Prix on this day last year:

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78 comments on Hamilton: title defeat is “heartbreaking”

  1. James (@jamesf1) said on 29th October 2012, 0:12

    I was actually very much saddened when Michael gave that interview on TV earlier on. He deserved more than this in his comeback, and has shown he still had much to give when mercedes set the car up right. I still hope it’ll happen, but with this mindset, you feel he’ll just bow out like a candle which has used all it’s wick

    • celeste (@celeste) said on 29th October 2012, 0:47

      I´m blaming Mercedes, they have been doing a terrible jo for the end of the season… maye they gave up and are focus on next year but is sad for Schumi…

      • Rocky (@rocky) said on 29th October 2012, 11:51

        You have to wonder what bill of goods did Merc sell Schumi to get him and then after an epic 3 year failure they sell the same bill of goods to Hamilton and it works!

        • Robbie (@robbie) said on 29th October 2012, 15:15

          Lol…MS is a big boy, as is LH…MS knew he wasn’t joining a top team and even if Brawn promised him the world MS knew that it wasn’t exactly Ferrari with the unlimited testing etc etc he enjoyed in the past that he would be joining. He had to know it wasn’t going to be nearly like he had it at Ferrari. And same to LH…he has had 3 years to see where Merc is at, and still joined the team anyway. Nobody ‘sold’ them anything.

          Unless you are at Red Bull these days, everybody has to cling to hope that they will find some magic, get themselves sorted, and progress to the top. That is the reality. It’s not about being ‘sold’ anything. All they can all do is promised each other they will do their best, and that there are no guarantees.

    • Really sad..

    • notTheStig (@iamnotthestig) said on 29th October 2012, 2:53

      same here

    • Colossal Squid (@colossal-squid) said on 29th October 2012, 2:58

      I agree completely. I don’t know what’s happened at Mercedes but since Nico’s second place in Monaco they’ve been going backwards.
      For a team as well equipped and as well funded as they are not to score since Singapore is shameful. Neither Michael or Nico deserve the car they have, I can only hope Michael can bring the car to a good result in the next few races. He’s had enough bad luck this season, time for some good luck!

    • It’s such a shame. He’s still a legend and a titan on the sport. Anyway if you read this article below, it’ll remind you of the kind of impact he had in India when he burst onto the scene in the 90’s:

      http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1705915/India-bids-Schumacher-goodbye

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 29th October 2012, 6:53

      It’s kinda relief it’s closer to an end. It’s painful watching one of my F1 heroes posting those ridiculous results, most of them due to bad luck and bad car…

    • Fixy (@fixy) said on 29th October 2012, 15:59

      I honestly prefer when a driver retires once he has given everything and his results have dropped down, or we’d lose a title challenger for the following seasons. However, I unrealistically thought Michael was a superhuman and that he’d have always battled for titles, and so his retirement had to come when he was at top form…

  2. Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 29th October 2012, 0:47

    I hope that F1 really tries this time and give Schumacher a proper farewell. He’s the most sucessful driver ever, even if you don’t like him.

    In 2006 it was a miserable “goodbye”. They should let him in the podium at Brazil or something. F1 should be much more careful with its stars… even in tennis, they did a great celebration after Safin’s last match, and he “just” won 2 Grands Slams and was Number 1 briefly. Imagine what they’ll do with Federer or Nadal !

    • plus one

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 29th October 2012, 7:15

      +1.

      At least here, F1 Fanatic, I’m sure a proper tribute will be paid.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 29th October 2012, 7:50

      @fer-no65

      They should let him in the podium at Brazil or something.

      We’re talking about a sport which hasn’t even figured out how to celebrate a driver winning the championship when he doesn’t finish on the podium. I can’t see this happening.

      However they give him his second send-off, I hope it’s better than the toe-curling spectacle of ITV handing him a 1966 World Cup England football shirt.

      • 91jb12 (@91jb12) said on 29th October 2012, 12:18

        god that was cringeworthy. There’s getting it for a joke but that was they took that seriously, yet gave him that, took the ****

      • Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 29th October 2012, 12:46

        @keithcollantine it’s their chance to change it. They did the podium thing, now let the drivers celebrate !

        The end of the last race is always so lame. We’re all high up on a fantastic end of the championship, and it’s the usual podium celebration, and maybe the championship winning driver isn’t there. It’s ridiculous.

      • Fixy (@fixy) said on 29th October 2012, 16:04

        @keithcollantine MotoGP is very clever yet simple with that: before the what-could-have-been-title-deciding race they played a video of Pedrosa vs. Lorenzo. Yesterday they played a video as a tribute to the new World Champion. Lorenzo was even allowed off the podium to celebrate with his mechanics, as well as stopping on track, doing burnouts and waving flags. It was sad for Stoner and Crutchlow as the attention wasn’t focussed on them, but Lorenzo deserved it.
        Whenever a title-winning rider enters the paddock the cameras show him and the caption says “MotoGP legend”. I always loved that, it makes the whole sport feel like a big family. Like the way in which they said farewell to Simoncelli.
        F1 is becoming more viewer-friendly, but not more driver-friendly.

        • George (@george) said on 29th October 2012, 17:39

          @fixy Actually I felt bad for Lorenzo yesterday because Stoner seemed to be getting all the attention :P. I’m sure he’ll get a proper celebration at the next race though.

          • Fixy (@fixy) said on 29th October 2012, 20:36

            @george The cameras followed Lorenzo during the podium celebration and Stoner as well was controlled in his celebrations as he looked at Lorenzo who was the centre of attention. Stoner seemed to, in my eyes, aknowledge that was Lorenzo’s day, but I thought it was more of Stoner’s. Stoner’s impressive career and imminent retirement, ended with a win on home ground deserved more attention, I believe.

  3. I found that article on Senna and Bottas rather unnerving. Sure, the question in essence is valid – Should Williams choose the safe route and keep Senna, his capital infusion and mantain a level of stability inside the team in the buffer year that is 2013 OR take a risk with a rookie driver hoping he would rise up to the expectations and become a future star? – but pointing out in an ironic fashion to Bottas’ relationship with Toto Wolff, insinuating his influence within the team might weigh more than the finn’s impeccable results in WSR and F3 in choosing which driver will get a racing seat with the team next year just renders any argument pointless and is simply disrespectful to all parts involved.

    Why should Williams give up on a points scorer in order to bring an inexperienced rookie? Because we’re talking about giving up on an generally-underperforming, occasional points scorer and very bad qualifier in favour of a rookie who is a valuable prospect, has done fairly well in his FP1 outings so far and has the potential to become a future WDC. He won’t do it without a racing seat. They won’t know if he can do it, without providing him with a racing seat. Simple as that. It’s the same reason why Vettel got offered a chance with Torro Ross and Red Bull. Why Button got offered a chance with the same Williams and Bennetton. Why Raikkonen got offered a chance with Sauber and McLaren, one year later and why Perez will follow the same route, etc.

    It doesn’t matter how many points Senna scores, one at a time, compared to his team mate this season. He, and his fans, just need to acknowledge the fact that both Maldonado and Bottas are simply better looking prospects than him. The end.

    • Bullfrog (@bullfrog) said on 29th October 2012, 8:59

      …Why Button got offered a chance with the same Williams

      Exactly – I’m sure they’d have given Bottas a chance in the same way this year – if they could afford to.

      I think it’s a shame Bottas hasn’t raced in 3.5 this season, but that shouldn’t be used against him like this writer here is doing. Senna could do a job keeping a team like Caterham in business, but a few 9th and 10th places and a lot of wrecked cars is not what Williams is there for, and Bottas has potential to achieve way more. He also knows everyone at the team and how they work now: no substitute for racing experience, but a definite advantage.

      • I know it all means jack afterall and that Williams will take Bottas on rather sooner than later.

        The only thing I don’t fancy is that this article is just another one in a huge pile of texts written with the sole incentive of keeping the Senna name clean. Even if it is attached to a driver like Bruno. All these writings will contribute to Senna leaving the sport as a victim AGAIN, in the general perception of the public. Not as a bad driver. Not as a slow one. Not as a talentless one. But as a victim. Another guy who was half-eaten alive by the big bad wolf (or Wolff?) that is Formula 1. Just like he left HRT and Renault. And someone will find his money and his name useful again and he’ll probably either stay or make his comeback to the sport in one year, once again keeping another valuable seat occupied for a season or two.

        I know I might come under heavy fire for this, but: in my opinion Senna should leave the sport on a low and it all should be percieved that way. And everyone should learn something from his adventure in F1: “money simply can’t make up for mediocrity anymore”.

        • FLIG (@flig) said on 29th October 2012, 11:23

          I don’t get why some people think Senna is that bad. He is not as good as the old Senna, but not many drivers are, and honestly, Maldonado brings in more money and more stupidity to the team, so your “money making up for mediocrity” doesn’t count here. Actually, Senna being mediocre is alright compared to Maldonado being a hazard.
          Maldonado scored two 8th places and won that one race that justified his being in F1. Senna has scored four 10ths, one 9th, 2 7ths and a 6th, and out of the 17 races so far, he improved his starting position in all but 4 (+1DNF). If we have to bash someone for being a paid driver, please, aim at the right direction.

          • Slr (@slr) said on 29th October 2012, 12:25

            But unlike Maldonado, Senna can’t get the car anywhere near the front when Maldonado does, Maldonado is more capable of extracting the best out of the car. Whilst at times Maldonado seems like a lost cause when it comes to controlling himself on the track, Williams have a much better chance in calming down Maldonado, than they do in getting Senna up to speed.

          • I don’t get why some people think Senna is that bad.

            @flig – I brought every single argument there is for this in numerous posts over the course of this season. I don’t feel like explaining it again.

            @slr said it all. Maldonado can be insanely fast but lacks consistency completely. Senna is downright slow and semi-consistent. One can learn to be consistent under proper guidance. Speed on the other hand, is not something that can be taught. Simple.

          • FLIG (@flig) said on 29th October 2012, 21:04

            So we’re talking about potential, not delivery. Maldonado can be taught to finish his races by completing all the laps required, and I believe he someday may just do that, but Senna can also learn to get better and better car set ups, improve in race strategy execution and increase his finesse (perhaps with more practices on Fridays?) with the car. You seem to imply that the most important thing in F1 is to have a heavy foot, which I cannot agree with.

          • Eleanore (@leucocrystal) said on 29th October 2012, 22:33

            @tony031r I find the phrase “downright slow” being applied to Senna to be laughable. If he’s slow, so is his teammate, who may be quicker in qualifying, but who he usually outpaces in races (including this past weekend, and that was before Maldonado got tangled up with Kobayashi).

    • Lee (@comptongp) said on 4th November 2012, 21:42

      I think that, considering the very mediocre Susie Wolff has a ‘development driver’ role within the team, bringing Toto Wolff and Bottas’ relationship in to the equation is entirely relevant.

      The more I think about it though, the more I think Bottas already had the race seat for 2013 a while ago and was given the Friday mornings as a preparation for that, maybe that’s why Wolff got involved with the team, rather than Bottas being there because of him.

      I don’t think you can fairly call Senna slow, yes he isn’t the best qualifier on the grid, but you could say that about many drivers. He does have good pace during races though, he doesn’t have the one headline result that Maldonado has, but slow he is not.

      If you can’t teach a consistent driver how to be fast, why are teams wasting money on driver coaches like Alex Wurz?

      I’m not saying that Bottas isn’t a good prospect, quite the opposite, but I do wonder what a driver has to do to keep his seat, and that isn’t just restricted to Senna, I just like Williams more than the other teams so write about them more often!

  4. thejudge13 (@thejudge13) said on 29th October 2012, 1:18

    Anyone see any mileage in Adrian Newey’s wistful comments on designing a Ferrari being the same to a car designer as driving for them is to a driver?

  5. Kingshark (@kingshark) said on 29th October 2012, 1:33

    Schumacher expects little from final races

    This has became painful to read let alone watch. I can’t believe how excited I was back in November 2009 when the news came out that Michael was going to return to F1 and join Mercedes. 3 years latter, I stand here full of bitterness and disappointment. Why did you have to come back? ;-(

    Out of frustration, if I wrote what I really taught about the team of Brackley; It would reach the moderator filter, Keith would read it, then send it straight down to hell and back, then down to hell again.

  6. HoHum (@hohum) said on 29th October 2012, 2:51

    Once again Bernie suggests that other people should look to the good of the sport even if it costs them dearly (cheaper seats, a FI seat for NK etc.)
    I only wish he would use some of the billions he has taken out of the sport to fund these ideas.

    • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 29th October 2012, 5:28

      I only wish he would use some of the billions he has taken out of the sport to fund these ideas.

      Like, say, growing the sport at a rate of one new race per year for the past decade? Or maybe expanding the calendar to hold twenty Grands Prix?

      • AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 29th October 2012, 13:51

        @prisnoer-monkeys I wish I had your patience when it comes to making that point, mate. I just end up feeling infuriated.

      • Pelican (@pelican) said on 29th October 2012, 17:13

        Prisoner Monkeys – how many of those new races have build up a strong following in the new countries? and how many beg to have their fees cut after a year or two? Selling unsustainable grands prix to gullible politicians and an uninterested public fills his pockets, but it doesn’t grow the sport.

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 29th October 2012, 7:07

      Will Bernie ever understand that current model is unsustainable?

  7. HoHum (@hohum) said on 29th October 2012, 3:02

    As for cost savings, a budget cap, no matter how large, cannot make a level playing field for such disparate teams as Ferrari and HRT even if HRT had that amount of money.
    My money saving suggestion, more testing before seasons start and again mid season but no new parts after the last day of testing. IE you race races 1-10 with exactly the same spec. you make a mid season upgrade and race that spec. for races 11-20.
    Of course I would like a more open rulebook to begin with.

    • Alex Brown (@splittimes) said on 29th October 2012, 7:04

      This is really interesting to me. Reliability and safety problems would need some consideration (i.e. HRT’s brake failures), but this I really like.

      • JerseyF1 (@jerseyf1) said on 29th October 2012, 10:01

        I’m sure these issues could be dealt with – like in the engine homologation rules where certain changes can be made for reliability purposes rather than performance benefit during the homologation period.

        A bigger issue might be how the cars deal with the wide variety of track types which require significant differences in downforce levels etc. Another benefit (or drawback depending on how you look at it) on top of cost savings is likely to be that cars have to be designed with greater compromise for the 10 races so we could see lots of changing around in which car is fastest at any given circuit (like we had at the start of 2012). The winning constructor will have built the best car overall but is less likely to dominate over all of the races.

        • Dave (@davea86) said on 29th October 2012, 13:24

          The track variety would be an issue. At the moment Monaco, Barcelona and Canada are all in the first half of the calendar. It’d be strange having to do three tracks that are so wildly different with the same car so somewhere along the line the car would be horribly compromised.

          Plus some cars might perform better at certain tracks but there’s still the potential to have one car be the class of the field and be stuck that way for half a season. Imagine if a team came up with a must have device like the double diffuser or the f-duct and their rivals have to wait 10 races before they can implement their own version.

          • JerseyF1 (@jerseyf1) said on 30th October 2012, 13:48

            Fair points, but it could also be argued that the teams who come up with the clever innovations ought to be able to benefit from them. The current system says that every constructor has to design its own car, but that they are free to copy every idea they can from rivals. That must be one of the huge current costs for the top teams, having to immediately go out and devise their own version of every rival’s latest design in time to try it out for the next race.

            Under the proposal above teams would be able to implement changes over a longer period of time and would have the mid-season test to get them right before homologation for the second part of the season. Meanwhile the teams with the best innovation will get to keep their advantage. Perhaps to stop too much domination the season could be split into, say, four blocks of 5 races with a few days ‘testing between each.

  8. uan (@uan) said on 29th October 2012, 3:17

    Really have to feel for Hamilton this year. 2011 may have been a year to forget, but he’s come back in 2012 and driven brilliantly and in arguably the best car over the entire season (regardless of how well the RB8 and Ferrari are finishing up). Without team miscues and reliability issues, he’d more than likely be leading the WDC right now. He may not have ultimately won it, but the last races of the season would have been epic with a 3 horse race between Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso.

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 29th October 2012, 7:13

      McLaren is no longer the best car, they were and they did not collect as many points as they could.

      Even with their current form, if they’d managed to get as many points as they could in the first few races he would’ve been within range to fight for the title until the end but there’s not much you can do with such messy operational process and unreliable machine, particularly when your rivals make much less mistakes.

    • JerseyF1 (@jerseyf1) said on 29th October 2012, 10:13

      The evidence firmly suggests that Mclaren hasn’t had the best car over the entire season. Mclaren is 3rd in the constructors standings and their best driver is fifth in the driver standings with drivers in three different constructors ahead of him – this with two recent world champions in the cars.

      I know that numbers don’t necessarily tell the whole story but in this case the evidence strongly suggests that the car to be in over the course of the season so far has been a Red Bull. Mclaren clearly had the best car at certain points in the season and when it was hooked up it worked well for one or both drivers but I think people are too taken in by the Alonso propaganda that the Ferrari is a dog of a car – it has been consistently been fighting for podium places for the majority of this year.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 29th October 2012, 10:19

      @uan

      arguably the best car over the entire season

      I think you need to draw a distinction between ‘quickest’ and ‘best’.

      McLaren have often (though by no means always) had the quickest car this year, as the data published here recently shows:

      http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/10/22/red-bulls-latest-leap-prove-decisive/

      But factor in their recent unreliability and poor wet-weather performance and I think it would be a stretch to call the MP4-27 the best car of the year so far compared to, say, the RB8.

  9. Further evidence as to exactly how poorly McLaren manage their team. I simply cannot understand how Sam Michael can make comments about their testing new development parts to the media and not expect those comments to eventually get back to Lewis Hamilton. Sky ran a bit during their Friday show of a reporter ambushing Lewis with a question about development and Lewis was left looking like a fool. As Lewis has all too clearly demonstrated at times, he has access to the internet. It’s astonishing to me that McLaren would be so willing to play mind-games with a driver still under their employ for this season. If McLaren were really serious about trying to capture 2nd in the Constructor’s Championship, despite the WDC slipping through their fingers, this is not the way to go about it.

    • John H (@john-h) said on 29th October 2012, 7:06

      Well, I totally agree. To be honest, employing Sam Michael was a mistake in the first place. As a supporter of Hamilton, I’m now quite pleased that he will probably be happy at Mercedes, even if the car will be slow.

      On that issue, the Schumacher comeback shows just how little a driver can influence car development these days with no testing. People say how Alonso helped develop the car this season but in all honesty he can have had little impact on the cfd department at maranello.

  10. leotef (@leotef) said on 29th October 2012, 6:41

    I bet Vettel won’t, never, go to Ferarri unless Newey moves to the prancing horse. Maybe more so after Alonso showing very strong nerve to challenge mighty Red Bull. As far as he remains at Red Bull, 4th or 5th consecutive WDC is quite handily within his reach- better say almost given unless FIA curb them down as exhibited after Germany. Then why risk losing them all with the statistical greatness chances and instead exposing himself to a possibly cruel threat of being destroyed?
    It’s just amazing that during two seasons of 2010-11 33 poles out of 38 GPs were captured by Red Bull, amazing guy is Newey.
    This year, that dominance seemed fading at the start with FIA intervention even in the middle of the season. But here it comes again the youngest greatest of the greatest storming the races, to some his fans, in a not that fast car Red Bull.

    • Zubair (@zubair380) said on 29th October 2012, 7:01

      I don’t think there is any incentive for Newey to move to Ferrari. The appealing aspect at Red Bull is that Adrian effectively built up the team, and to an extent made them what they are today. Red Bull is “his” team. Going to Ferrari would certainly limit his freedom. And the romance of working for Ferrari only extends to the drivers, imo. Engineers/designers won’t give two ****** about who they’re working for.

    • Cristian (@cristian) said on 29th October 2012, 7:31

      Alonso couldn’t beat a rookie in 2007, of course he couldn’t beat Vettel. He needs a teammate as Massa or Piquet jr. so he can feel comfortable in the team.

      • David-A (@david-a) said on 29th October 2012, 12:21

        Very harsh on Alonso there, but then I can’t blame you when the poster above talks of Vettel being destroyed and the amazing guy being Newey.

        • leotef (@leotef) said on 30th October 2012, 3:22

          @David-A, sorry sir, but I didn’t say Vettel being destroyed. Just possibility of that or not, which means it’s unknown and ergo risky maybe to his current can’t be better situation. And yes, amazing guy is for sure Newey, not Vettel.

          • David-A (@david-a) said on 30th October 2012, 4:05

            @leotef – One doesn’t work without the other. Newey is a great designer, but he needs a great team behind him, and the team needs a great driver, in Vettel.

          • leotef (@leotef) said on 30th October 2012, 5:10

            @David-A, of course they are like needle and thread. Point is that, there are other great talented drivers with Vettel’s caliber, or even better – who knows? – while we can’t say the same thing to the case of Newey at least under current F1 team.

          • David-A (@david-a) said on 30th October 2012, 5:43

            @leotef – Indeed, who knows? But the problem is when people don’t even bother with the “who knows” and act as if they know that the 25 year old SV isn’t as good as other drivers.

        • leotef (@leotef) said on 30th October 2012, 5:53

          @David-A, Perhaps cuz they didn’t see more than that except him running away and hide, or he didn’t show more than that. Best way to show what he has is therefore for him to join Ferarri for the moment which I doubt though. If not, this is going to be very extended stretched out version of 2009 and Button to me. BTW, at least BUT had gut to join McLaren and Lewis at the time. LoL.

          • David-A (@david-a) said on 30th October 2012, 12:25

            @leotef – And yet it’s not like he hasn’t ever fought for position, or had to come through the field. Only a few races ago he carved through the field. It’s more a case of people not paying attention.

            And to be honest, I doubt you can accuse Vettel of not having guts. He has plenty of time to do what he wants, whether that involves making a move or not. And Button hasn’t done as well over his career as a whole as Vettel.

          • Are you stpuid? said on 1st November 2012, 15:51

            And Button hasn’t done as well over his career as a whole as Vettel.

            Well of course. Vettel started with Toro Rosso and then graduated with Red Bull the the begining of their prime. Button started with Williams, then Benneton, then Honda – during Schumacher’s dominant period. My name says it all…

    • Moosehead said on 29th October 2012, 16:00

      The danger in your logic is this:
      What about Hakkinen’s championships then… Are they all down to Newey as well?

      • Boomerang said on 29th October 2012, 21:09

        No, it’s down to McLaren and Mike Coughlan ;-) I think he won only one in 2007 driving for Ferrari. if I remember correctly…

        • Boomerang said on 29th October 2012, 21:32

          Sorry, I thought of Raikonen. My mistake, but I must say that McLaren is a team with odd operational and engineering organisation. It happend twice in recent history that freshly recruited chief designer gives it’s best during the first year of employment at the team. Adrian Newey gave his best in MP4/13, MP4/14 was less successful although it helped Hakkinen to claime the drivers title. The following cars were never champions. Then it came Mike Coughlan. Without Stepnygate they would claim the championship easily, the car was superb, Lewis as well ( remember GP in China 2007, without Sam Michael – very weird racing by McLaren team ).
          Good thing for Adrian that he moved on to unleash his engineering creativity. At McLaren things would never unfold in the way we see it now with RB.

      • leotef (@leotef) said on 30th October 2012, 3:14

        No, no danger at all. The bias is quite prevalent in his fans argument of his superiority when in fact most of them may fall on the machine itself. I do not disparage Vettel as just one humble passing name if without the machine. He is very good fast driver with accuracy I think. But that doesn’t mean he deserves all the big noise surrounding the stats talked about.
        As said before in another post, his calibre of driver’s ability can be founded in current grid relatively easily. I dare say maybe 5-8 drivers. But can you seriously assume he could have achieved these result had Newey not been in Red Bull? As @Boomerang and @Zubair380 said, both Ferarri and McLaren is already too much self established big guy to be fully dependent and supportive of one prominent designer. Which means of course, Newey will not be at Ferarri unless they eat their self-pride and history and that’s why Newey was not so much successful in the McLaren as he does in Red Bull.

        I’m nobody’s fan, just want to enjoy fierce racing against faster cars and drivers in fair basis, which is unfortunately not the case here. That said, my point is I cannot value Vettel as his stats is saying unless get a chance him to drive same machines as Alonso or Hamilton, or Kimi etc.

        • David-A (@david-a) said on 31st October 2012, 1:59

          @leotef – Stirling Moss had a saying that the best driver gets the best car, and to an extent, it is true. It’s SV’s performance in lower-midfield machinery that got him where he is now. So even if Newey wasn’t at Red Bull, based on performance, he’d be in one of the best cars/teams, winning championships and/or regular races against his opposition. He was in contention against Brawn in 09, and without the best car for chunks of this season, after all.

          And furthermore, unless F1 is supposed to be a spec-series, there is nothing that isn’t fair about the current situation, since other teams and drivers are free to find ways to win.

          • leotef (@leotef) said on 31st October 2012, 2:17

            @David-A, You seem to be in Pacific time zone. No?
            He could have won, or not. I don’t know. Construing best team choose best drivers here does not carry that much persuasive power. In late 2008 and early 2009 I don’t think Red Bull was the best team nor Vettel was the best. Paraphrasing that it was sort of most likely choice available would be enough. That’s true in ‘general’ though.
            I think the reason he was able to contend against Brawn esp 2nd half of 2009 was that Newey effect was transferred to the car, and everybody knows why and how Brawn could fly.
            My reference to fairness was in a team at least in terms of resources allocated to the machine each is supposed to drive.

          • David-A (@david-a) said on 31st October 2012, 2:37

            @leotef – Yes, we don’t know 100% who would have won what. But my point is that looking at Vettel’s performance level as a driver, relative to every car he has had, it would be hard to assume that he wouldn’t still be one of the best performers on the grid somewhere else. That if hypothetically, he was driving a slower car he’d still be making the most/driving beyond its limits of that car.

  11. tobinen (@tobinen) said on 29th October 2012, 8:30

    Don’t understand LH’s comment – he can’t lose what he doesn’t have. Lost the battle for it, yes.

  12. Mallesh Magdum (@malleshmagdum) said on 29th October 2012, 9:09

    ‘Hamilton heartbroken’. Understandable considering that it may have been his only chance

  13. AndrewTanner (@andrewtanner) said on 29th October 2012, 13:20

    The budget cap idea is just going to be so hard to police. It’s fraught with difficulty. I think that if you want to place any kind of restriction on the sport then it really should be via RRA. That also has issues it would need fine-tuning but if for instance you could limit the amount of terraflops used for CFD then you would be proxy reduce costs.

  14. Robbie (@robbie) said on 29th October 2012, 15:07

    Of MS’s ‘eight’ retirements, let’s not forget that this weekend’s was voluntary, as was I’m sure at least one other, and some of them this season were from his own accidents in taking out someone else too, and some resulted from penalties that put him back on the grid and resulted in him struggling and tangling with cars he needn’t have been near. And let’s not forget that NR has had some dnf’s through no fault of his own as well…taken out in both races prior to India, and a few technical issues of his own, so it’s not like MS is the only one on the team that has suffered.

    It should come as no surprise when I say that I do not feel for MS at all. He had it better than any other driver in the history of F1, and compiled the numbers as a result. My concern when he announced his return to F1 was that the team was once again going to stack everything in his favour and hang NR out to dry. Especially given Ross Brawn’s weight on the team. Thankfully they didn’t do that, and we saw what is much more normal for a driver in F1. An actual teammate to go up against in a car not built for either one specifically, and a car needing lots of work to get to the top 3. That is what most drivers go through for most of their career, so I think it is good that MS got to experience that. And as I say especially that NR wasn’t hung out to dry and in fact seemed to be invigorated by the experience.

  15. accidental mick (@accidental-mick) said on 29th October 2012, 16:22

    Would someone with a better memory (or reference book) than mine put me straight please. Am I right in thinking that McLaren have not won a WCC and only one WDC since Martin Whitmarsh took over from Ron Dennis.

    Any odds on whether he will be with us next year?

    • Try Wikipedia…

      In the past 20 years (of which three are under Whitmarsh), McLaren won only one WCC (1998), and three WDCs (Hakkinen (1998, 1999) and Hamilton (2008)).

      • Robbie (@robbie) said on 29th October 2012, 20:28

        I wouldn’t expect Whitmarsh to be going anywhere soon. I Wiki’d it too and I think it would be splitting hairs to expect that all of a sudden he can work miracles as a team principal (ie. he had a title change but has been a principal of the company since 89) when he started as Head of Operations in 89, became CEO in 04, took over from RD in March of 09 and in 2010 LH was in contention for the WDC in the last race. I think many team members in F1 would envy the position MW is in and the good work he has done for the team.

        In other words, Whitmarsh was heavily involved with the team for the wins ^Mo^ has mentioned, even if he wasn’t Team Principal until March 09. Are you going to blame MW for LH not winning the WDC in the final race of 2010?

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