Sutil has ‘lost respect’ for Hamilton

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Adrian Sutil, Force India, Bahrain, 2013In the round-up: Adrian Sutil says he has lost respect for Lewis Hamilton in their rift over Sutil’s trial last year.

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Adrian Sutil (GP Week, subscription required)

“These kind of people I don’t really respect. I respect [Hamilton] as a sportsman here, but in private he’s not on my level and I don’t need to waste time with those people.”

Dad is my driving force, says Lewis as Brit ace takes break from F1 with rap star (Daily Mail)

“‘It was just I wanted to go back to the time where we just father and son go karting you know, having fun and enjoying ourselves,’ said Hamilton of the decision to drop his father as manager.”

Whitmarsh doubts big increase (Sky)

“Personally I don’t think there will be more than 20 next year, but it is for others to speculate on which races will be on the calendar.”

‘I’m here and I plan to stay’ (ESPN)

Monisha Kaltenborn: “We focused on getting our deal done. We’ve been working with these partners now for a while and because of the extent and the scope of this deal we knew that it would take a while. It’s something new for both sides so we didn’t really get too much impressed or disturbed by what was being written.”

Pirelli: Mercedes win not due to tyres (Autosport)

Pirelli motorsport director Paul Hembery: “It was a surprise to us. It was hot for everybody, everyone was suffering. It was all about temperature going in, nothing to do with the tyre; it was the heat going into the tyre – you can do what you want with the tyre, it doesn’t affect the heat going in.”

Russian GP promoters reach an agreement with RAF (International The News)

“The promoters of the Russian Grand Prix said Monday they have managed to resolve their contradictions with the Russian Automobile Federation (RAF) concerning the staging of the next year’s event.”

Formula One Joins Legoland in Plan to Remake Malaysia?s South (Bloomberg)

“Singapore billionaire Peter Lim is partnering with UEM Sunrise Bhd, which is majority owned by state-run Malaysian investment firm Khazanah Nasional Bhd, to build a motor sports complex with a Formula One-compliant test track in Iskandar.”

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Comment of the day

@JayMenon10 believes the writing is on the wall for Felipe Massa:

It’s a new formula next year, perhaps Luca di Montezemolo should look to start afresh?

Massa has been given enough time to pick himself up. He is clearly not able to pull consistent results. If Alonso needs to finish ahead of him in all the races fine, but then he needs to be in the next position, which he almost never is.

Age has caught up with him. I doubt any other team in F1 will want him, well for starters nobody would be able to afford him. He should make a graceful exit from F1, there are plenty of other racing categories he can explore, America is definitely an option.

There is enough talent out the to replace Massa. Jules Bianchi will be a quite obvious, but something tells me it will be Nico Hulkenberg.
@JayMenon10

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184 comments on Sutil has ‘lost respect’ for Hamilton

  1. Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 8th August 2013, 0:04

    but in private he’s not on my level

    AKA “he just talks about how sad he is now Nicole left and doesn’t try to cut people necks at bars like I do… such a loser”

    I know he’s bitter that his friend wasn’t there for him (and he’s right), but come on…

    • Meander (@meander) said on 8th August 2013, 0:18

      Best thing Lewis could do was stay well away from the whole circus Sutil alles down upon himself.

    • HoHum (@hohum) said on 8th August 2013, 0:28

      I can understand Sutil being bitter that his friend did not appear for him but we, and he, should consider Lewis’ position, I think it very likely that McLaren instructed him not to go, it is also possible that Lewis was given legal advice that his (truthful) testimony would not help Sutils case, and the ramifications for Lewis are all negative. Sutil made the mistake, he shouldn’t expect his friends to suffer for it.

      • BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 7:26

        While that all is true @hohum, given that Hamilton had before given his testimony that could have greatly helped Sutil avoid conviction, and then just did not turn up for the trial, I think Sutil is right. Sutil does seem to have learnt a great lot in his year out (I can’t imagine him being as funnily cocky in reacting to Trulli’s pictures now :-) ).

        I perfectly understand he feels upset that Hamilton did not even have the strength/courage/whatever to tell Sutil for himself that he would not testify. And afterwards acting as if he is surprised about not being friends with him anymore.

        • @bascb

          I can’t imagine him being as funnily cocky in reacting to Trulli’s pictures now :-)

          Well then thank goodness this more mature attitude of Sutil’s didn’t come sooner… that was the best F1 drivers’ press conference of all time!

        • HoHum (@hohum) said on 8th August 2013, 22:42

          @bascb, I was unaware of the full details, maybe Hamilton was under a lot of pressure not to get involved and not knowing what to do did nothing, not entirely admirable but understandable given the short earning career of a F1 driver.

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th August 2013, 7:49

            pretty likely yeah, after all he is a young guy who has lived a life pretty much shielded from having to make many life desicions up to very recently so it must have been a very tough situation for him as well @hohum.

        • Patrickl (@patrickl) said on 9th August 2013, 0:30

          Sutil knew damn well that Hamilton would have had to lie for him. I guess that’s the kind of “friend” Sutil is that he expects something like that, but McLaren and his lawyer obviously told Hamilton not to go.

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th August 2013, 7:51

            Sutil knew damn well that Hamilton would have had to lie for him

            @patrickl – Proof needed if you want to accuse anyone of something like that.
            I have seen no hint at that being close to true anywhere in the press. Not german, not Uk, nor in the French language press. Not anywhere else, so I will put that just down as nonsense.

      • Rooney (@rojov123) said on 8th August 2013, 16:23

        At the very least Hamilton who said Sutil was one of his best friends should have had the courtesy to let Sutil know about the position he was in. From what Sutil says, Hamilton simply didn’t answer his calls or texts and ignored him completely. Not the way even a random friend would behave, let alone a very good friend.

        • Patrickl (@patrickl) said on 9th August 2013, 0:33

          “From what Sutil says” yes. Sutil claimed Hamilton changed his phone number so he didn’t have to talk to Sutil.

          Hamilton would not have changed his number if it was such a simple matter. There must have been tons of whining from Sutil already.

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th August 2013, 7:52

            And Hamilton never denied the facts (therefore we have to accept them as such), he just mentioned that he wanted to be friends again.

    • Mouse_Nightshirt (@mouse_nightshirt) said on 8th August 2013, 1:08

      In private, no, he’s not on your level. Because it takes a special kind of level to think it’s acceptable to slice someone’s neck with a glass bottle.

      • Alex (@korbendallas) said on 8th August 2013, 1:30

        And to then to blacklist a friend because he refused to perjure himself to support you. Here I thought Sutil might have grown up a bit as a result of his holiday from F1. Hopefully for him he dials down the self-importance before he makes another “mistake”.

        • Blackmamba (@blackmamba) said on 8th August 2013, 2:19

          Honestly I do not understand this guy. Did he even consider how much Hamilton would be savaged in the press, on F1 forums, Twitter and in the court of public opinion if he had tried to defend someone who glassed a person in the neck?
          ……………he is not on my level, indeed! This thug is so delusional.

        • Mike (@mike) said on 8th August 2013, 4:44

          How do you know that Hamilton is being asked to do that? You don’t.

          What I do know, is that if I was involved in an incident. And I didn’t think it was my fault, I’d expect my friends to support me.

          That appears to be the case here, from Sutil’s point of view, so no wonder he thinks a lot less of hamilton now.

          To be honest, unless you guys can say for sure that Sutil was 100% at fault for the incident, and that he IS asking Lewis to lie, then you shouldn’t be making up allegations which might not be fair. Imagine if it was about yourself.

          I don’t know what happened, but Sutil does not strike me as the violently lashing out type. He doesn’t have a track record with these things and sometimes things do go wrong. So I think it’s wrong to automatically cast judgement against him. We do not know.

          • puneeth Bharath (@puneethvb) said on 8th August 2013, 5:01

            @mike +1

            well said

          • Mouse_Nightshirt (@mouse_nightshirt) said on 8th August 2013, 11:17

            I don’t see how Sutil could have thought Boullier could have been to blame from receiving a laceration from a bottle that Sutil had swung at him.

            And I can’t see how Lewis would have been useful to Sutil other than to say something that wasn’t true.

          • hobo (@hobo) said on 8th August 2013, 17:41

            @mike – You’re doing the same in reverse. Others question Sutil’s position, and you are fully supporting it. Sutil thinking he is innocent is immaterial, it’s what actually happened. If it is unreasonable to dismiss Sutil’s opinion as you suggest others are doing, it is just as unreasonable to take it without question especially since his opinion just happens to be 100% in his favor.

            In addition, I’ve found that generally people only shout about loyalty when it benefits them and when they’ve screwed up. It cuts both ways (with glass even); loyalty also means not putting your friends in bad and illegal situations where they have to choose between their own legal safety and yours.

          • Mike (@mike) said on 8th August 2013, 20:23

            @hobo

            Did I say he was innocent?

            No. What I said was, from Sutil’s point of view, it is natural that he would feel betrayed by Hamilton.

            Secondly, I said that unless you know what happened, I think it’s very flippant to make remarks such as “it takes a special kind of level to think it’s acceptable to slice someone’s neck with a glass bottle.”.

            Unless you guys actually think that he thinks that’s what he did. But I doubt it.

          • OmarR-Pepper (@omarr-pepper) said on 8th August 2013, 20:25

            but Sutil does not strike me as the violently lashing out type.

            @mike if Montoya had been the guy at the disco, I would have simply thought he started all the chaos and sent him to prison to life :P

        • BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 7:32

          @korbendallas that

          then to blacklist a friend because he refused to perjure himself to support you

          is complete and utter nonsense.

          The only thing Sutils defence team asked of Hamilton, was to testify and tell the court what Lux was saying to provoke Sutil, apparently it was pretty derogatory and persistent for a longer time. They asked him to tell the full truth of it, because it might have mitigated the punishment/classification of the incident/crime.
          Hamilton was working with those lawyers, until his management/legal advice told him not to get involved (which is perfectly understandable and sound advice by the way). I think it would have been fair if Hamilton had just told Sutil outright that he wouldn’t / couldn’t testify instead of stopping to take calls after that time.

          • Alex (@korbendallas) said on 8th August 2013, 8:43

            Seems you’re right, @bascb. I recalled reading a while ago that Hamilton said Sutil expected support, full stop. Seems I was mistaken.

            However, given some of the things Sutil has said about Hamilton since the incident, I’m not surprised Hamilton wants nothing to do with him.

          • Patrickl (@patrickl) said on 9th August 2013, 0:49

            So how would the outcome have changed if Lewis had repeated what Lux said?

            Point is, there was CCTV footage showing exactly what Sutil got convicted of. Whatever Lux said can never be reason to stab him in the neck with a glass.

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th August 2013, 7:56

            Whatever Lux said can never be reason to stab him in the neck with a glass.

            – indeed it can never be a reason to do that @patrickl. But it could have been judged as mitigating circumstances that lead to it.

            Being attacked after provoking it intensively is quite a different role for the victim and the perpetrator from an unprovoked attack, meaning the court is likely to judge differently in each case.

            As is, from the punishment I would say the judge took some mitigating circumstances in account, after all he got only a suspended conviction for it.

        • geordieracer said on 8th August 2013, 8:52

          Excuse me? Refused to perjure himself? The only people that know what really happened are the people in that nightclub and the people in the courtroom. You know diddly squat about what was in Lewis’s testimony, so how could you call it perjury?………Silly

    • celeste (@celeste) said on 8th August 2013, 2:58

      Well, the use of violence is never justified. But we really don´t know why it was so important for Sutil for Hamilton to testified.

      As far as we know Sutil didn´t expect Hamilton to perjury himself. And he believe that what Lewis could say could have exonerated or at least mitigate the veredict.

      If Lewis knew something that could have helped Sutil, them Sutil has all the right to be mad. But we may never know, and all that we have is what the media publish about the incident.

    • BJ (@beejis60) said on 8th August 2013, 4:20

      One has to laugh that Sutil is saying that…

      In before Coughlan accuses Mercedes of cheating this year.

      • Rooney (@rojov123) said on 8th August 2013, 16:27

        No one is laughing at Sutil’s comments. Any self respecting man would feel the same way he does when a person you have been close friends with for a very long time doesn’t even have the courtesy to talk to him and let him know his situation. A lot of respect was lost in the minds of a lot of people for Hamilton from the first time the report came out.

        • OmarR-Pepper (@omarr-pepper) said on 8th August 2013, 21:28

          @rojov123 first, I’m not fan of Hamilton either on or off track, but it’s not necessarily true that every time Sutil called Hamilton, this one just hung the phone up. I think that after that incident, Sutil (obviously) feels betrayed and just shoots words at Hamilton, but wheter or not he (Sutil) is telling us the truth, well, we don’t know. Probably Hamilton did talk to Sutil, but after all that Adrian has said, Hamilton just prefers to make deaf ears to him. Why to bother now anyway?

          • Rooney (@rojov123) said on 9th August 2013, 3:54

            @omarr-pepper Sutil has said several times that he tried multiple times to contact his so called best friend. He also said that Hamilton changed his phone number. This is not something he muttered under his breath. These were the things he said repeatedly and in public, in press conferences with Hamilton sitting less than 10ft away from him. Besides, don’t you think Mclaren would have come out fighting tooth and nail if Sutil’s statements were false?
            Hamilton did not talk to Sutil. Even in the press conference just a few races ago, Hamilton was asked this question and he replied that he hasn’t got a chance yet and that he would like to do it soon.
            Sutil doesn’t give a rats **** about Hamilton now. But when he is asked a question, what else is he supposed to do? Run away scared like a lil bunny?

            I’m glad you said that you aren’t a Hamilton fan. Otherwise I would have mistaken you for one, especially seering the blatant way you defended him in the first place.

          • OmarR-Pepper (@omarr-pepper) said on 9th August 2013, 13:55

            @rojov123 not blatant, just iwondering about what happens in inner circles, where clearly not me or you have access.

    • Kimi4WDC said on 8th August 2013, 4:47

      Agree with Sutil here.

      The faster you can get your “friends” into the “people you know” zone is better for all parties. Real friends will never stand you up if truth requires so. But then again, there is a reason why people live all their live and have only couple or none true friends.

    • JP (@jp1987) said on 8th August 2013, 7:28

      We don’t really know what happened, so we are no one to pass judgement on either HAM or SUT. That been said, I think friendships works both ways: Maybe HAM should have been there for SUT, but at the same time, SUT should face the consequence of his actions by himself and not try to get HAM involved in this whole situation. Interesting how SUT makes HAM not been there the issue, while I think the issue should be his apparent anger management problems

      • Rooney (@rojov123) said on 8th August 2013, 16:29

        The issue at stake is that from one of Sutil’s earlier interviews, Hamilton had completely ignored Sutil’s attempt to contact him. For a close personal friend, he should atleast have talked to Sutil and let him know that he wont be able to help.

    • Girts (@girts) said on 8th August 2013, 7:59

      It’s really hard to judge Hamilton’s actions as Sutil himself either cannot or doesn’t want to tell the details of what happened in that Chinese nightclub.

      As for Sutil, his interviews have given me the impression that he is afraid to be seen as unmanly in any aspect and his assault against Mr Lux as well as his current attitude towards Hamilton just seem to confirm that.

      As for their earlier ‘friendship’, I doubt if two active F1 drivers can be true friends with each other so I think they just used to have a healthy relationship that isn’t there anymore but probably that doesn’t matter much. They are almost certainly not going to become team mates in F1 anyway.

    • I’m completely with Hamilton in this case: he is a very popular public figure and so defending someone who has done such a wrongdoing would only dent that public image and needlessly so too.

      Hamilton was truly stuck between a rock and a hard place and if Sutil hasn’t recognised that then absolutely he’s not on “Hamilton’s level”.

      • PMccarthy_is_a_legend (@pmccarthy_is_a_legend) said on 8th August 2013, 13:23

        I think it is really hard to have an opinion either way here. We don’t know what really happened or the full circumstances surrounding the whole affair other than what we hear on the press @vettel1

        • @pmccarthy_is_a_legend very true and I absolutely accept that point. I also think @bascb ‘s contribution is very valid.

          @mowgil it is worth remembering though that he needs to appease his employers, multiple sponsors and millions of fans. I agree that it shouldn’t do any harm to make a truthful testimony (and the whole truth) but I imagine he would be subject to immense pressure from those aforementioned to stay well clear of proceedings.

      • Maarten (@) said on 8th August 2013, 17:41

        @vettel1 I don’t know what happened, or the details of what Sutil asked of Hamilton to testify. But if Hamilton finds his public image more important than a friendship, that tells you a lot about his character. However, if Sutil (and only IF) he did ask Hamilton to lie for him, then I can’t blame him. But the least Hamilton could’ve done for a friend is tell the court what happened, I honestly don’t think his “image” would’ve been damaged by telling the truth.

    • TMF (@tmf42) said on 8th August 2013, 12:56

      I think the problem was less that Hamilton didn’t show up at the trial but that he wasn’t man enough to tell Adrian that he isn’t coming. He just went AWOL for his friend – although I don’t know if that’s true, but if so then I’m with Adrian.

      If it was just Hamilton not going to the trial and telling Adrian that he won’t testify then I’m backing Hamilton’s side.

    • rambler said on 8th August 2013, 19:58

      He’s right though. Lewis is such a whiny dork xD it’s hilarious

      • Blackmamba (@blackmamba) said on 8th August 2013, 22:26

        I can not believe that @mike, @mowgli and @bascb expect Hamilton to stand by a thug, someone who cut another person’s throat. Now I don’t know where you guys are from, but where I come from that is considered a heinous crime and you have the right to cut out that person from your life as you see fit. Face to face, text message, e-mail or just stop taking their calls. A person like that deserve everything they get. Sutil didn’t show such consideration when he was glassing Lux. @mike, you ssay you doubt whether Sutil was 100% wrong but if it was some misuderstanding why didn’t he stick around to find out if Lux was OK instead of running off to his hotel to pack and sneak out of the country in the middle of the night? Those are not the actions of an innocent man.

        @bascb On the contrary, there as a rumor at the time that it was Sutil who was trying to move in on Lux’s missus, and yes, he might have had some choice words to say to Sutil but that did not give him the right to cut his neck.

        • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th August 2013, 8:19

          I guess I am glad I am not a friend of yours @blackmamba!

          As for the rumours about Lux’s missus – I would be very gratefull If you could find a track back of that story, because I had NEVER heard that one before – and I happen to have looked at a lot of the stories making their way at the time from sources in English, German and French.

          Sure, what Sutil did was wrong and cannot be easily excused or taken away. I can understand why he fled (would you want to be investigated in China?) and think its probably standard procedure at a club like that to get all prominents away after an incident like this. I can also fully understand why Hamilton did not testify (it was sound advice from his management and the best for his career). I can also understand why Lux wanted him convicted instead of taking excused and money offered.

          But I still think that as a friend (and Hamilton did call Sutil a friend before and after the incident) he should have at least been fair with Sutil and told him he wouldn’t.

          I read an account that Lux had been derogatory towards Sutil for a sustained period of time and refused to leave them alone when repeatedly asked to do so. That is not the same as “some choice words”. But as none of us where there, neither Lux, Sutil nor Hamilton is likely to tell more details, we really know only that the judge gave a suspended sentence, which indicates that she did see some mitigating circumstances (or maybe one prefers to think its because Sutil is a celebrity?).

          I do not think that when a person does something wrong, that its inevitable to cut all ties with them and eradicate them for your life. Especially not a good friend. It does change the way you behave with them, just as it changes all involved.
          From what you write, if you have any friends left, you must be a group of angels to still be friends together.

        • Mike (@mike) said on 10th August 2013, 5:23

          @blackmamba

          I didn’t say he was innocent, I said I don’t know, I can’t know.

          What I did say is that from Sutil’s perspective, him being unhappy with Hamilton is understandable.

          Having said that I do live in Australia, and you are right! I stab people on a daily basis, it’s pretty much normal over here. We even have a sport, the Australian stabbing league. It’s quite popular. I’ve gotta go to work now, and the knife factory. because that’s where people work where I come from.

          Actually really not, ha, I made a funny. -.-

    • pkingMaster said on 9th August 2013, 0:03

      Sutil is acting like a plain idiot. he is letting his emotion get the better of him. he keeps going on about Hamilton at every opportunity. you acted like a thug so man up and take your punishment without dragging others into it. Do you know what it would have done to Hamilton if he had stepped into that court and attempted to defend someone that has committed such savage act? The story wouldn’t be about Sutil no more, Hamilton would be the headline for months if not years to come about that case. So his legal advisers were right to advice him to stay clear. I remember in one of the earlier races this year Sutil unnecessarily blocking Hamilton trying to pass him and I remember Hamilton loosing a lot of time behind him and being careful not to be too aggressive on Sutil. I said to my mate I was watching the race with that Sutil was just doing that to spite Hamilton and ruin his race. I was right because I remember him being penalised and given a drive through for it. In other incident, I remember Sutil racing Hamilton harder than the likes of Alonso or Vettel even before this incident happened even though he claim they are best buddies. I think it was in Brazil in Hamilton’s championship winning year. There is no friendship in F1. So Sutil should just shut up and drive.

  2. Colossal Squid (@colossal-squid) said on 8th August 2013, 0:14

    Cutting remarks from Sutil there, but fair play for sticking his neck out.

  3. HoHum (@hohum) said on 8th August 2013, 0:15

    Nice little joke for Nigels birthday, it looks so real, but everybody knows you can’t make passes on the Hungaroring especially not on Ayrton, let’s face it races were just a procession before DRS and dodgy tyres so it couldn’t really have happened. Could it ?

    • Mike (@mike) said on 8th August 2013, 5:01

      http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

      What you will find is that in 1990 the overtaking was actually at a healthy level, what the graph also shows you, is that in the last few years that overtaking has increased drastically.

      So, overtaking had declined and DRS and the designed to degrade tyres have increased overtakes. Which was their stated aim. So in that respect, they have been a particular success.

      In my personal opinion, they could lose DRS and overtakes would still be high, but it would remove much of the “artificial” aspect that people are very critical of.

      • PieLighter (@pielighter) said on 8th August 2013, 5:14

        @mike That post from @hohum was filled with sarcasm.

      • TMF (@tmf42) said on 8th August 2013, 12:59

        I guess hohum’s comment is meant sarcastically ;)

        Anyway the real culprit was refuelling – just look at the difference between 2009 and 2010. 2010 still featured Bridgestone without DRS and the overtakes increased.

      • @mike wow, this collection of statistics in particular are incredible:

        1,152 : most overtakes in a season – 2011
        945 : most overtakes in a season (dry races only) – 2011
        186 : fewest overtakes in a season – 1996
        137 : fewest overtakes in a season (dry races only) – 2008, 2000
        Grand Prix
        126 : most overtakes in a dry race – 2011 Turkish GP [Istanbul Park]
        144 : most overtakes in a wet or varied race – 2012 Brazilian GP [Interlagos]
        1 : fewest overtakes in a dry race – 2006 San Marino GP [Imola], 2002 Hungarian GP [Hungaroring], 2002 Japanese GP [Suzuka], 1998 Monaco GP [Monaco]
        4 : fewest overtakes in a wet or varied race – 1996 Spanish GP [Catalunya]
        0 : zero overtakes in a race – 2009 European GP [Valencia], 2005 United States GP [Indianapolis], 2003 Monaco GP [Monaco]

        Looking at these, I absolutely do not want a return to the mid 2000’s-type racing. Nor however am I a huge fan of the current situation (with the artificial DRS overtakes).

        What would really be ideal is if we were to have one/two stop races (max) and no DRS but reduced aerodynamics (with the balance being tilted towards ground effects and not ridiculously intricate front wings). Then we’d have acceptable levels of overtaking and not too much artificiality.

        • David-A (@david-a) said on 8th August 2013, 17:27

          It is interesting to see that Spain 1996 and San Marino 2006 had so few overtakes. They were really good races, far more memorable than say, Hungary 2011, Valencia 2011 or Abu Dhabi 2011.

          • @david-a I will remember the Spanish GP of 1996 more so for the sheer quality of Schumacher’s drive and the immense talent he displayed there, not so much the quality of the race itself (as really Schuamcher was in a class of one).

            Although when I say “remember”, I don’t have any personal memories of it as I wasn’t actually around to see it!

      • Patrickl (@patrickl) said on 9th August 2013, 0:54

        The graph shows “position changes” have increased. We might as well count position changes due to pit stops though. That’s about the same effect as one car simply driving past another car which is 3 seconds a lap slower.

  4. Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 8th August 2013, 0:18

    Is F1 a magnet for political controversy? Famously F1 was one of the last sports to pull out of South Africa in light of the Apartheid regime and we all know of the oppression of the Bahrani public in the hands of the tyrannous Sheiks. Now, the announcement that internal disputes have been settled with the Russian GP organisers has come in almost immediate following of Stephen Fry’s very compelling criticism of Russia’s political policies regarding the rights of homosexuals living within Russia.

    I’m beginning to wonder whether Ecclestone is so prioritised towards money-making that he is completely blind to the suppression of the citizens of those countries whom he is happy to exploit.

    • Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 8th August 2013, 0:37

      Of course, the situation in Russia doesn’t come under the same tier of severity as the aforementioned but nonetheless I would appreciate if F1 were to at least try to promote the rights of the inhabitants of countries it visits by pressurising the government and providing a platform for media reporters to comment on their policies.

      • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 8th August 2013, 2:24

        This is Russia that we’re talking about. They’re not going to relax their policies if threatened with the loss of a Grand Prix.

        And since when did it become the responsibility of Formula 1 to actively promote the rights of citizens? You’re not expecting FIFA to do it when Russia hosts the World Cup in 2016. Nor are you expecting the IOC to do it with the Olympics next year. So why Formula 1?

        • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 8th August 2013, 2:26

          That was intended for @vettel1

          Also, why are you expecting Formula 1 to promote the rights if Russian citizens when you haven’t demanded that the sport promote the rights of citizens in any other country that hosts a race (except Bahrain)?

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 11:03

            That is a non-argument @prisoner-monkeys. Not protesting everything does not somehow deny you the right to protest something.

            And (that goes even more for your post referring to the Olympics and Football) how do you actually know people who mention Russia’s non too great stance on freedom and on minority rights in particular do not protest these events too (as @formulales mentions)?

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 8th August 2013, 14:20

            No, but not protesting everything makes you a hypocrite.

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 13th August 2013, 6:45

            Oh, come on @prisoner-monkeys, its impossible to actually protest everything. Anything that you want to succeed needs you to focus on specific targets, otherwise you spread yourself too thin.

            Its perfectly fine to focus on one issue and stay with that. It does not mean that you do not support others with other, similar issues, nor does it make you a hypocrite. It just makes you more successful in bringing that one current issue to the spotlight, and who knows, maybe even change it a bit.

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 14th August 2013, 10:07

            @bascb – Then perhaps a better way of doing it would be to go through the most appropriate channels. Formula 1 might be receiving government support, but that does not automatically make it a stakeholder and give it a voice into how a country is run. Especially since the support the race receives will be a fraction of the region’s budget, much less the national budget.

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 15th August 2013, 8:24

            I really fail to understand this comment @prisoner-monkeys. You were telling people that they are wrong to protest anything, then that they should go and protest everything if they think you need to protest something and now you are talking about the most appropriate channels.

            So what do you think would be those appropriate channels for us to make it known that we think that F1 (and the IOC, and …) should call on Putin to revoke some laws?

            I think talking about it in blogs, supporting online petitions, or talking about it in the media as some well known people are doing is the best we can do really. Its not as if we could take the phone and ask our local Doema member to take up the issue, is it?

        • FormulaLes (@formulales) said on 8th August 2013, 9:17

          I think @vettel1 makes a valid point. Whom you choose to do business with, and what their values are, reflects on your own values.

          Say for instance I was okay with buying a mobile phone from someone who steals and then sells mobile phones, it would be reasonable for you, @prisoner-monkeys to assume that I have no problem with people stealing mobile phones, because if I did, then obviously I wouldn’t buy a mobile phone from a person that I knew stole them.

          The same principle applies to businesses, and the businesses / countries that they choose to do business with, and I think that is what @vettel1 is getting at.

          It doesn’t matter how much Formula 1 might try to convince themselves that “it’s just business, we don’t get involved in a countries politics or human rights records”, the very act of doing business with someone / some country is saying “you know I’m okay with the way that this person / country does business”, and that is the message that Formula 1 (maybe unintentionally) is sending out all the across the world.

          • FormulaLes (@formulales) said on 8th August 2013, 9:27

            Furthermore @prisoner-monkeys, how are you sure that @vettel1 isn’t also over at olympicfanatic.co.uk, or fifafanatic.co.uk, making the same point about them doing business with Russia? Maybe it just wasn’t mentioned here because the Olympics and the Soccer World Cup are not relevant to the conversation?

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 8th August 2013, 14:26

            Sport and politics do not mix. Not without getting your hands dirty – and usually much dirtier than you expected.

            It’s my experience that most people calling for a sport to make a political point are doing to to soothe their own consciences, rather than out of any genuine concern for the issue.

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 8th August 2013, 18:07

            @prisoner-monkeys

            Sport and politics do not mix.

            Yes they do. We have a calendar on which most rounds are subsidised by governments. We have Russian development agencies linked to the country’s president investing in Sauber. The Venezuelan government pays for Pastor Maldonado’s Williams seat. The Bahrain government pays top dollar for a race so it can pretend all is well after brutally crushing a pro-democracy uprising two years ago, and imposes near-martial law on its citizens in order to put its race on. Ferrari use their car’s livery to comment on diplomatic incidents.

            And these are just examples from the last 12 months: motor racing being used for political purposes is certainly not new.

            Pretending any sport – particularly motorsport – can be or is apolitical is simply naive and plainly at odds with the facts.

          • @prisoner-monkeys

            It’s my experience that most people calling for a sport to make a political point are doing to to soothe their own consciences, rather than out of any genuine concern for the issue.

            If you knew me personally you’d know I feel far from obliged to “sooth my own conscience”, in fact I have absolutely no hesitations in speaking exactly my mind however unpopular the opinion may be. So anything I say is sincere and a belief I very much uphold, not some simple ploy for moral acceptance.

          • FIA said on 9th August 2013, 6:59

            We are talking about the same sport, Grand Prix racing, that was used by the Nazis to promote German superiority through support of Mercedes Benz and Auto Union. The cars traditionally have been painted in national racing colours (this is why Ferrari is red). The flags and anthems of nations are used routinely. Nationalistic fervour has a tradition in Grand Prix racing, and with that comes government money and politics.

        • @prisoner-monkeys

          And since when did it become the responsibility of Formula 1 to actively promote the rights of citizens?

          I’m not saying it is the “responsibility” of F1 to promote civilian rights, it is the responsibility of F1 to stage the race. However, that doesn’t mean – with the obvious media attention a race brings – that they couldn’t at least utilise that media attention to allow those who’s job it is to promote civilian rights a chance to speak out to the world. All I’m saying is F1 could be slightly more proactive if it is going to persist with racing in countries where corruption is rife.

          Also, why are you expecting Formula 1 to promote the rights if Russian citizens when you haven’t demanded that the sport promote the rights of citizens in any other country that hosts a race (except Bahrain)?

          Where have I said that at all? Bahrain and South Africa are the most famous examples hence why I included them – listing every single country where F1 has raced that has been under a corrupt government would be a pointlessly long task. I would think it easy enough that one could assert by extension that I would support the same in other countries (such as China).

          @formulales

          Furthermore @prisoner-monkeys, how are you sure that @vettel1 isn’t also over at olympicfanatic.co.uk, or fifafanatic.co.uk, making the same point about them doing business with Russia? Maybe it just wasn’t mentioned here because the Olympics and the Soccer World Cup are not relevant to the conversation?

          Precisely: it would not be relevant to mention the Olympics any more than referring to Stephen Fry’s article on this, an F1 site. Although I should stress that I was inspired to write this comment by that very article, which would imply I feel the same way about the Olympics (that implication would be correct).

          At least you’ve understood the point!

          • Prisoner Monkeys (@prisoner-monkeys) said on 8th August 2013, 14:24

            @vettel1 – How, exactly, is Formula 1 supposed to use the renewed media attention it generates to highlight the plight of three feminist punk rockers who were jailed for being a public nuisance?

        • matt90 (@matt90) said on 8th August 2013, 11:58

          Nor are you expecting the IOC to do it with the Olympics next year.

          I’ve seen a lot of articles and petitions fully expecting the IOC to do it.

      • BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 7:44

        Its really an excellent Interview. But I am afraid that after reading his notes on it before writing up the article, the journalist must have felt Kaltenborn got away without telling him anything that had not been previously announced @vettel1!

        I did read somewhere that Ferrari is already a bit worried about “technology transfer” to russia, so it will be a precarious job to write up what exactly they are going to do.

    • Girts (@girts) said on 8th August 2013, 8:34

      Unfortunately it’s not just Bernie, who wants / needs Russian money. For example, Sauber recently made a deal with several Russian investors and Vettel went to Sochi to promote the race. Many teams have sponsors, business partners or owners from undemocratic countries. As the saying goes, money does not stink. I’d be happy to see F1 care more about human rights but I don’t think the sport is ready to face the financial consequences.

      I’m really sad to see the current state of human rights in Russia as I believe that Russians are great people with a huge potential and that they deserve a better government. I hope that at least some of the F1 journalists will not avoid this topic before the next year’s race. I think that the race needs to happen but at the same time we should not ignore the elpehant in the room.

      • @girts

        I think that the race needs to happen but at the same time we should not ignore the elpehant in the room.

        Absolutely – I don’t necessarily blame Mr. Ecclestone for essentially allowing the sport to grow to the commercial giant it is now but I would appreciate they used that platform to chase the elephant out of the room if you will; exactly as you suggest.

        • kbdavies (@kbdavies) said on 8th August 2013, 12:26

          So how come no one is protesting about F1 in the USA? The US is not excatly a beacon in the areas of freedom, human rights and minority rights is it?? Double standards methinks.

          • @kbdavies because there is a constitutional right of free speech in the US so any citizen can rightfully protest their government. That may not have previously been the case but they DO allow their citizens basic human rights, which nullifies any comparisons with China, Bahrain or Russia.

            No, but not protesting everything makes you a hypocrite.

            Oh please, be logical. That is like asking to defend the case of every single oppressed citizen of Bahrain – a ludicrous proposition which would require more text than is able to fit concisely within a comment. Please do feel free to criticise the IOC’s policies or the situation in Brazil but don’t make nonsensical accusations of hypocrisy. I’m purely staying within the topic of discussion which is Formula 1 in Russia – not the Olympics in Russia.

            How, exactly, is Formula 1 supposed to use the renewed media attention it generates to highlight the plight of three feminist punk rockers who were jailed for being a public nuisance?

            How, exactly, is this relevant to the current discussion?

          • Obviously the last two block quotes were aimed at @prisoner-monkeys @kbdavies!

    • Nick (@npf1) said on 8th August 2013, 13:12

      Sporting boycots have historically not been very successful, though. The 1985 S-A GP had several nations boycotting South Africa at the time, but it didn’t stop drivers like Prost from racing and even Ayrton Senna figured doing the race was more important than standing up for civil rights.

      Unless there is a total boycott (canceling the GP until LGBT rights improve), everyone is going to go to the race and compete for the points, regardless of the many people thrown in jail and harmed for their religion, sexuality or nationality.

      I don’t understand why Ecclestone is yet again the only person who is blamed for everything involving F1. The FIA can deem the circuit unsuitable for F1, teams and drivers can boycott the race, sponsors can boycott the race, but that likely won’t happen, because they all consider their own interests in Russia superior to the rights of the LGBT community.

      As much as I like F1, you can’t deny it’s a very self-centered world. So is football, so are the Olympics. The FIFA, FIA and IOC have historically never had much trouble going to countries where human rights were very poor and typically they will go on about the ‘unification sport provides’ and ignore the stadiums built by people earning next to nothing, protesters being arrested and the uselessness of their buildings in the context of the future.

      This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to improve our world, it just means sport (and commercialized sports especially) are a terrible vehicle for doing so. Write a politician, get involved with civil rights groups. Discussing it with fellow F1 fans might help awareness, but there are far more direct ways to aid civil rights.

      • @npf1 I’m not suggesting that F1 boycott it completely (I’m not as passionate in that respect as Mr. Fry as it is not an issue which directly relates to me), merely that they should be using the media platform to allow civil rights activists to campaign (as that is worldwide coverage they could only dream of)!

        I’m also not solely blaming Mr Ecclestone but he is the figurehead for everything political in Formula 1, so in the end it all relates to him. He is also the chief negotiator for Grand Prix and holds the broadcasting rights to F1.

        • Nick (@npf1) said on 8th August 2013, 17:01

          The problem is, in Russia’s case, it would be illegal to talk about. They would not be likely to arrest an F1 driver over supporting LGBT rights, but do the teams, drivers or media really want to take that chance? No, they have to please their teams, sponsors, employers.

          Could you imagine the headlines in the media if Vettel got arrested for ‘propaganda’ in Russia? The odds are, most people would still say ‘he should not have spoken up about it and drove like the driver he is’.

          Drivers hardly admit to what Energy Drink they use. I can’t see any modern F1 driver, team or sponsor having a go at a political regime as Putin’s.

          The drivers and teams can still stand up to Ecclestone; they chose not to do so (so far in Bahrain at least) because they have very similar interests. Don’t call Ecclestone a money-grabber, while none of the teams want a fine from Bernie for not living up to their end of any FOM deals.

          • @npf1 the problem I’m suppose with Russia is that they still hold a lot of power worldwide – if in the case of the Bahrani’s Vettel spoke out against the oppression of the citizens and they attempted an arrest on him I doubt they would go unchallenged by the world leaders of Germany at the very least, not to mention the threats they would likely receive from F1 itself. That isn’t as true of Russia though, as it has the power in that circumstance.

            Yes, but again that relates back to the fact Ecclestone holds all the power so realistically the teams could not stand against him (besides Ferrari). Again though I shall stress that he is doing his dues in keeping F1 afloat and I do not blame him for such, however I would like to see them being more proactive in at least encouraging the UN’s policies of human rights.

          • Steph (@stephanief1990) said on 8th August 2013, 21:17

            @npf1 Russia probably would arrest a driver if it could – it’s already tried to get Madonna up in court last year IIRC. F1 isn’t exactly LGBT friendly though so I seriously doubt any drivers would do anything that would risk them getting into trouble (I’d be pleasantly surprised if they did- a rainbow helmet from Seb would be nice).

            Oh and here’s a good link so people can actually see what is happening to the citizens of Russia rather than pretend it isn’t that bad or isn’t happening http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

          • @stephanief1990 that first image in the link you posted us particularly distressing: that is a wry smile of contempt and enjoyment from the riot policeman on the left. Disgusting.

          • Nick (@npf1) said on 9th August 2013, 0:07

            @vettel1 Let’s not forget Ecclestone is over 80 and most of the F1 circus isn’t exactly very engaged in human rights at all. As I said, it’s a very self-centered world and I remain surprised Ferrari had Unicef logos on their overalls, but at the same time didn’t do much at all to promote their work.

            @stephanief1990 Buzzfeed is keeping it tame on that one. If you know where to look for news blogs and videos too sensitive for YouTube (which seems to delete videos for political reasons these days) you can find footage of arrests with Russian police laughing as they beat a man up.

            I’m not disagreeing F1 should take a stand; I’m saying it’s entirely unlikely they would.

          • Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 9th August 2013, 9:50

            @npf1 I agree, so it’s something they could be doing (or even allowing the organisations themselves to be doing at the events) in future! ;)

      • Why stop at LBGT rights? Why not boycott races in countries that don’t respect animal rights, or who are denying calamitous anthropogenic climate change? Why don’t we boycott races in countries where smoking is still legal?

        • I’m sorry, but there is a massive disparity between between beating and ridiculing innocent people based solely on their sexual “preference” (often it is an uncontrollable biological occurrence) and ignorance over climate change or smoking. Don’t be so ridiculous.

          Would you be saying the same if they were beating people up for being Jewish? I think neo-nazism is a perfectly acceptable label for what is going on in Russia at the moment which doesn’t even bear comparison with smoking rights.

          • The point is if you start taking a political stance then it is difficult to know where to draw the line. You have to start making judgements on everything. “Do we condone this, what about that?” I was being ironic. Though I might point out that if countries continue to do as they are in relation to climate millions of people will die. This is not an exaggeration. The change in growing conditions in the 3rd world will see people starve, changes in weather patters will see people die in the heat and freeze to death. Is that not worth taking a political stance on? (p.s. I am an atmospheric scientist, I know what I’m talking about.)

            The Nazis did use Grand Prix racing for propaganda. It didn’t stop anyone else from racing against them.

          • BasCB (@bascb) said on 13th August 2013, 6:49

            Its not difficult to know where to draw the line really “FIA”. In the past it would have been treating people you conquered in a now acceptable way (geneva conventions), then the issue was slavery, later it was about emancipation and discrimination.

            Now those have been accepted by a large part of the world as issues, people who have always had an issue with minority rights are gathering worldwide (or western?) support for other issues. Its called development. The people at the core of the movement might have championed their issues for 50 years already, but are now gathering a more wide acknowledgment.

  5. Jack (@jackisthestig) said on 8th August 2013, 0:37

    I don’t know what Sutil thought would have happened during his trial had Hamilton turned up; “Mr Hamilton, did you witness Mr Sutil assault Mr Lux during the evening in question?” “uuurm….Yes.”

    • Blackmamba (@blackmamba) said on 8th August 2013, 2:12

      Sutil should be thankful that he is back if F1 and escaped prison. His seat is not looking very safe too so he should tyr to put in better performances because that is the only team who will let him drive for them. He bought that seat and as e have seen there are plenty drivers out there who have even more backing who will come with a sweeter deal for Force India and they won’t hesitate to kick him to the curb if he is not performing above average.

      • hawkii (@hawkii) said on 8th August 2013, 9:09

        I’m not sure his seat is looking that unsafe, he out qualifies di Resta more often than not and has put in some pretty impressive performances. di Resta has benefited this year from going on the contra strategy because he’s qualified so badly, and the car has handled it so well. Sutil isn’t doing that badly at all considering he’s had a year out.

        • Blackmamba (@blackmamba) said on 8th August 2013, 22:36

          Well Sutil needs to be doing exceptionally well, is my point. That seat was gonna go to Jules Bianchi because of his talent, which Force India always pride themselves on. But Sutil came calling with a very big purse and even Force India could not resist. Now all I am saying is if he is not performing exceptionally well then somebody from all these new countries who want stage an F1 race might come along with an irresistible deal for FI.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 7:37

      it would have been closer to “YEs, after mr Lux had been dogging him for the last 10-20 minutes about xxxx (we don’t know what), and just didn’t let go, in the end Sutil ….” probably

  6. Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 8th August 2013, 0:51

    On the topic of Hamilton’s break with the rap star (whom I have never heard of), has he actually produced any music? If so I’d love to hear it to make judgment on his artistic merits!

  7. Scottie (@scottie) said on 8th August 2013, 1:05

    Why is Malaysia building ANOTHER F1 track?!?! Do they think there’s enough room for another on between the short drive of Sepang to Singapore?

    Or do they mean over near Kuching?

    • Scottie (@scottie) said on 8th August 2013, 1:08

      nevermind, realised Iskandar is to the north, not south…

      • ScuderiaVincero (@scuderiavincero) said on 8th August 2013, 14:56

        Iskandar is to the north… of Singapore, south of Peninsular Malaysia. Having lived my life in the region, allow me to illuminate you.

        The drive from Singapore to Johor Bahru, a city bordering Singapore, would take the best part of an hour, maybe more, depending on the traffic (what with Customs and Immigration). Once you’ve entered Johor Bahru itself, it would take about three and a half to four hours , to reach the Sepang Circuit. So a short drive, it certainly isn’t.

        The point of building Motorsports City, is to allow petrolheads (mainly Singaporeans) to cruise to the track, spend half the day lapping the circuit, and then cruise right on home, without the need for an exhausting drive. The point of building Motorsports City in Iskandar, is simply to get the best bang for the buck.

  8. Traverse (@) said on 8th August 2013, 1:37

    Sutil: “These kind of people I don’t really respect. I respect [Hamilton] as a sportsman here, but in private he’s not on my level and I don’t need to waste time with those people.”

    I’m pretty sure Hamilton doesn’t want to hang around someone that has a penchant for stabbing people.
    Note, Sutil is a wolly!

  9. Chris (@tophercheese21) said on 8th August 2013, 1:39

    Sutil is just trying to wring out a dry rag. Just get over it man.

    Hamilton is better off staying away from Adrian.

    • JimmyTheIllustratedBlindSolidSilverBeachStackapopolis III said on 8th August 2013, 1:52

      yeah, besides lewis’ mum already told sutils mum lewis isn’t allowed to play with him anymore.

  10. bobthebuilder said on 8th August 2013, 1:41

    I’m prpetty sure taking a picture with a rapper doesn’t constitute going on holiday with a rapper haha. Did you read the article keith?!

    Seems like the typical Lewis + rapper must equal something tthat would distract him from racing, I.e a fictional holiday pahah

  11. Jay Menon (@jaymenon10) said on 8th August 2013, 5:25

    Thanks for the COTD Keith!

  12. JCost (@jcost) said on 8th August 2013, 7:50

    So Mercedes people figured out how to chanel breaks heat off the rear tyres? Let’s hope Hembery is right, we need them fast and reliable for the second part of the season.

  13. BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 7:55

    Hm, interesting to read about those plans for Malaysia. Hard to make out whether its good or not.

    On the one hand the current track in Malaysia seems to be in need of a bit refurbishing to the buildings, and the race is losing some viewers because of the Singaporean race being on the calendar while at the same time the money the country pays seems to be in question from government there.
    So then it would be a good idea to refresh the purpose by taking it to an area they want to promote and reinvigorate. Having the kind of cooperation that is mentioned in the article does seem like a good basis – I would love to see Legoland Malaysia combined with F1, maybe I would be booking a trip!

    ON the other hand, we have seen how Abu Dhabi works with the Yas Marina track and Ferrari world (both are pretty far under capacity), and that is a project that is relatively successfull when we compare it to a place like Korea (also several hours outside of town, with a supposedly vibrant community to be built but it failed to materialize) or Turkey.
    China also took 10 years to get there (because eventually development came from a spreading urbanization), and that is a place where the money is really no problem, although it still is not a great success.

    • Jay Menon (@jaymenon10) said on 9th August 2013, 1:54

      This is classic Malaysia for you…spending money on things that dont make any sense.

      There CEO of Sepang Circuit has been talking about building a “Motorsport Valley” of sorts around Sepang, which is if remotely plausible could be good. But the issue here is that, the region just does not have a motorsport industry as such. There are isnt a strong local or regional series that draws huge crowds or money.

      This Legoland circuit is one more in the long line of rubbish ideas our leaders dream up.

  14. BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 8:07

    I am not sure this is the right place and time, but from all the comments on Sutil and his remarks over Hamilton I observe how people fail to understand that people change from their experiences.

    Every live interview Sutil has had since his comeback he comes over as a completely matured individual by now. Very different from what he was before his conviction. It changed him, and for the better.

    Often the same goes for racing drivers – they learn and change over the years. That Di Resta was better than Vettel 8 years back is possible. But it seems Vettel has improved more than DiResta since then. The same goes for a guy like Button who was talented, but has since become all round good (if not a great qualifier), or Rosberg who is now stronger a competitor to Hamilton then he remembers him.
    The same goes for Maldonado – how long ago is it that he did crash now? And Grosjean has learnt a bit as well, although it seems he still needs better spacial awareness.

    I see a worrying trend that people remark how “driver X did Y 3 years ago, so what makes you think he can be good now” often combined with a derogatory remark towards the person who mentioned said driver doing something. People grow up, learn from what they come up to and some get better. Others get bitter or somehow adapt in another way.

    • Mike Dee (@mike-dee) said on 8th August 2013, 8:31

      @bascb “driver X did Y 3 years ago, so what makes you think he can be good now”

      Ha, that’s what people say about Vettel, that he is crash-prone based on his incidents at Spa and Turkey 2010. However, since then, he has not retired from a race once due to a collision – he even holds this record for consecutive races without retiring due to a collision! And still, he still has the reputation from Spa and Turkey 2010.

      • BJ (@beejis60) said on 8th August 2013, 16:14

        I know he didn’t retire, but did VET not turn in on SEN in 2012 Brazilian GP? That’s a collision.

      • Man, short memory, Vettel nearly lost his front wing (and did do damage to it) at the very last race while being stuck behind another, much slower car.

        PS, Button very strong qualifier? comon BasCB, hes up against Perez, a guy known for not being a strong qualfier, in a new team.

        Rosberg stronger than Ham remembers? its 6-3 to Ham in a brand new team and we’re only at the half way point of the season.

        • And while im here, Vettel has that consecutive race finishes without collision because hes had the strongest car for the last 3 seasons, for pete’s sake. Of course hes not been stuck in the thick of the action, and as soon as he is, like Malaysia where he swiped NK, or behind Button in Hungary, he starts losing parts of his car.

          • like Malaysia where he swiped NK

            That is simply completely untrue – I thought everyone was aware of that by now.

            Besides, his reputation as “crash prone” is misplaced: I recall one collision he has had this season? Alonso has been worse in that respect (remember Malaysia?) and I highly doubt anybody would have the audacity to call him crash prone (I certainly wouldn’t)…

          • Patrickl (@patrickl) said on 9th August 2013, 1:00

            That analysis is just nonsense. You need to look with respect to the racing line. Not some arbitrary straight angle towards a camera.

            Still you completely missed the main point of N’s argument that crashes only happen when you are not in the fastest car driving at the front. In Hungary Vettel had plenty of collisions when he was in a position where he actually needed to overtake.

          • Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 9th August 2013, 1:16

            @patrickl the stewards have access to every camera angle and they came to the conclusion Karthikeyan was at fault. That camera angle suffices for general public arguments though as the racetrack is visible and it is at a consistent angle.

            That’s where I disagree though – Vettel didn’t have “plenty of collisions”, he had one very minor one. That is the only one I can recall this season and he hasn’t lead every lap besides in Hungary unless my memory epically fails me.

          • Max Jacobson (@vettel1) said on 9th August 2013, 1:23

            So therefore it is a moot point. Vettel’s strength may not be in overtaking but that is relative and calling him “crash prone” is a gross exaggeration to say the least. Grosjean, possibly. Maldonado, possibly (although they’ve been getting better, especially the latter). Vettel, no.

        • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th August 2013, 8:33

          I think you misunderstood that comment N – Button is pretty good all round apart from qualifying where he clearly lacks.

    • KeeleyObsessed (@keeleyobsessed) said on 8th August 2013, 12:31

      @bascb Or that Ferrari are always rule-breakers because of what happened in Germany 2010. That one has got on my nerves everytime people have childishly brought up that subject. Teams/Drivers DO change…

      • BasCB (@bascb) said on 8th August 2013, 13:02

        not sure about that one @keeleyobsessed – for many that was more seen as a confirmation that after some of the things they did in the early 2000s that race showed they had not changed for the better really (bardgeboards, flex floors, flex rear wings, etc).
        I would say its more like how RBR keep being accused of illegal parts because they were the best at the game (of finding things on the edge) in the last couple of years.

    • I have to admit the one I am consistently guilty of is Hamilton is affected by his emotions – I don’t think it’s fully removed but Hungary seemed to disprove the notion!

      Absolutely agreed though @mike-dee @bascb @keeleyobsessed

    • @bascb Or my favourite of them all: Michael Schumacher is a horrible driver because of the 1994 incident with Damon Hill. Which was a racing incident anyway.

  15. electrolite (@electrolite) said on 8th August 2013, 8:26

    None of us know these guys in real life, so I’ll reserve my judgement on that.

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