“Aggressive” design a cause of Red Bull failures

F1 Fanatic Round-up

Daniel Ricciardo, Red Bull, Jerez, 2014In the round-up: Adrian Newey admits he may have been too aggressive with the packaging of the Red Bull RB10.

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Newey admits packaging hurt Red Bull (Autosport)

“Hands up on our side, that was a Red Bull problem. It was, you could argue, a result of aggressive packaging but we felt that we needed to take a few risks to try to get a good package that would minimise the aerodynamic damage of this very large cooling requirement.”

Probe into Schumacher fall closed – prosecutor (Reuters)

“French investigators have ruled out any third party involvement in the ski accident of former Formula One world champion Michael Schumacher and have closed the case, the local prosecutor said on Monday.”

Jenson Button: McLaren driver could profit from new F1 rules (BBC)

“The need to finish the races using no more than 100kg of fuel will make new demands of the drivers. I believe this whole scenario could really suit McLaren’s Jenson Button.”

The career of Mark Donohue (MotorSport)

“Donohue may not have made his mark on F1 but he defined Penske Racing and is fondly remembered by many of us as one of the most astute and complete racers the sport has ever seen.”

Q&A with FIA Formula E CEO Alejandro Agag (NBC)

“The fact it’s around 80 decibels makes it possible to race in city centres without major sound disruption. I think it’s a great feature. People will get excited by the sound, but not be disturbed by it. That’s the advantage.

Tweets and pictures

My diet food when I'm in home this is Mr.chicken.僕のダイエット食のチキン様です。

Kamui Kobayashi: “My diet food when I’m in home this is Mr Chicken.”

Comment of the day

Matt Clark on the time-lapse video of preparations for the Australian Grand Prix:

Wow so much work goes into setting up for the Melbourne Grand Prix and it’s only a half points race.
Matt Clark (@Mattc888)

From the forum

Happy birthday!

Happy birthday to _Ben_ and Mike!

If you want a birthday shout-out tell us when yours is by emailling me, using Twitter or adding to the list here.

On this day in F1

Happy birthday to former F1 driver Giovanni Lavaggi who turns 56 today.

It was no secret that Lavaggi owed his place in F1 to the finance he brought to his two teams – Pacific in 1995, Minardi the year after – in order to make his handful of race starts. Of his half-dozen appearances in 1996 Lavaggi failed to beat the 107% time on three occasions and was a classified runner just once, finishing five laps down in 15th at Estoril.

He fared better in sports car racing and shared the winning Porsche at the 1995 Daytona 24 Hours with Jurgen Lassig, Christophe Bouchut and Marco Werner, despite a late rules change which disadvantaged their Kremer-run car.

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80 comments on “Aggressive” design a cause of Red Bull failures

  1. Mouse_Nightshirt (@mouse_nightshirt) said on 18th February 2014, 0:05

    Mr Chicken seems to be swimming in oil. I’ve got to try this diet!

  2. mfreire75 said on 18th February 2014, 0:12

    Formula E would be a successful racing if it were run by people who understand what racing is all about. One of the very few good ideas this series has the way it is marketed- I think its a very good idea to run on city streets in cities like Los Angeles, London, Buenos Aires, Cape Town, etc. Another is that it is good for them to start the season at the end of one year and finish in the following year. But there is little else good about this series. I predict that Formula E will be a hysterical failure, will cause the series’ executives huge losses and they will be laughed at by almost every person involved in American and European motorsports. It seems like more of a circus show than an actual racing series. What tricks will Agag and his cronies come up with next, I wonder?

    • Kyle Fleet (@watchkyle) said on 18th February 2014, 13:51

      Double points at the final race?

    • why is it good to start in one year and finished in the next? i know is typical in other sports, but why is it good for formula E?

      • Mfreire75 said on 18th February 2014, 16:47

        Because no other major racing series that I know of does that- hardly any motor racing takes place during winter other than the Daytona 24hrs, the Gulf and Bathurst 12hrs and a few others. It gives us fans something to be entertained by when the regular racing series are in the off season. But Formula E has way too many flaws for it to be successful- there should be another racing series that does that.

  3. Deej92 (@deej92) said on 18th February 2014, 0:39

    Hopefully Mardenborough can impress and perhaps eventually step up to F1. What a story that would be.
    He could be Wales’ best hope of an F1 driver for years, although there is also Matt Parry who I think is still part of Caterham’s driver programme.

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 18th February 2014, 6:48

      Indeed. I ca even imagine Martin Brundle saying: “Jann, from Playstation to Formula 1″

      The armchair driver has a future (and present) in real life motorsports :)

      • hunocsi said on 18th February 2014, 9:13

        @jcost it would be interesting to see if Red Bull gave him the opportunity. First because it’s a wonderful story of someone getting an F1 seat after starting off from behind a TV screen.

        But secondly, we know Infiniti is a division of Nissan, and the GT academy he was picked by is run by Nissan and Sony PlayStation’s Gran Tourismo, so after the recent speculations of Sony sponsoring either McLaren or Lotus, could they rather turn to Red Bull?

        • JCost (@jcost) said on 18th February 2014, 10:42

          The Nissan link is quite clear (for me) from reading the Red Bull representative giving props for Sony and Nissan for their new approach to finding talent. I didn’t now Sony is considering to sponsor an F1 team, maybe the Bulls are eyeing that. Good point.

  4. montreal95 (@montreal95) said on 18th February 2014, 0:41

    Mr Agag thinks someone will get excited by the glorious sound of Formula E. Does he think there’s anyone that stupid? All audio and video evidence so far suggest that people are more likely to be excited by watching paint dry than that irritating buzz

    • I’m really looking forward to Formula E, which seems to be a surprisingly rare opinion amongst F1 fans from what I’ve seen. I think they’re gonna sound pretty rad. Especially with a full grid.

      I don’t think I’m stupid. I was just never expecting Formula E to sound anything like F1. That expectation would be stupid. They’re different machines. I’ll be tuning in to Formula E for sure.

      • MemorableC (@memorablec) said on 18th February 2014, 5:01

        Agreed, Its annoying seeing all these people who claim to be motorsports fans write off Formula E because it doesn’t sound like an internal combustion engine.

        The racing will hopefully be good, the talent pool of already announced drivers is fairly impressive, and the world needs the tech that they will help develop to make sure that we can still enjoy petrol engines for the foreseeable future.

      • JCost (@jcost) said on 18th February 2014, 6:27

        I want to see that. I know the sound is not going to be loud (at least it wasn’t when Di Grassi tested the car) but I don’t care, I want to see competitive racing.

      • Chris (@tophercheese21) said on 18th February 2014, 7:51

        I lost any and all respect for Formula E when they decided on that “Fan vote power boost” thing.

        I’m not going to take them seriously when they have rubbish like that. In fact, that rule makes double points look like the most logical decision ever.

      • andae23 (@andae23) said on 18th February 2014, 8:15

        I was excited last year when they announced, now I’m more ‘curious’ than ‘excited’ to be honest. The whole experience will be something completely different to Formula 1 – which as you point isn’t a bad thing at all – I just hope it doesn’t get as over-commercialized as I think it will.

    • I’m really looking forward to watching Formula E, too. Why so negative and why so insulting towards those of us who appreciate the potential of a new FIA-sanctioned international series, @montreal95?

      • montreal95 (@montreal95) said on 18th February 2014, 11:04

        @joepa But Agag was talking specifically about the sound of Formula E. And if you heard that, and still think it’s exciting, then the next time I gonna paint my flat I’ll be sure to send you an invitation. Just keep in mind:the tickets won’t be cheap, with the cost of materials nowadays :)

      • David not Coulthard (@) said on 19th February 2014, 13:35

        @joepa
        Well, vote-to-pass is quite a deal-breaker for me…

    • Tomsk (@tomsk) said on 18th February 2014, 8:36

      He’s missing the point if he (rather patronisingly) thinks we’ll be “excited by the sound”. Just show us a decent race and we’ll be agog, Agag.
      Ironically the low-noise cars would be ideal for tracks in the country that are getting closed down by petty-minded neighbours moving in and complaining about the noise.

  5. timi (@timi) said on 18th February 2014, 0:56

    “The need to finish the races using no more than 100kg of fuel will make new demands of the drivers. I believe this whole scenario could really suit McLaren’s Jenson Button.”

    Wow, this fuel thing is being seriously misinterpreted by pundits and fans alike. Considering the fact that teams will be able to control fuel flow rates from the pit wall means that the driver can always push 100%.. they just might not actually have 100% power or fuel at the time. I think there was an article in a recent round-up where an F1 analyst said pretty much that..

    • Diego (@ironcito) said on 18th February 2014, 3:39

      Even so, the driving style will affect what adjustments the engineers have to make. And not having 100% of the power all the time, means that the drivers will need to adjust their driving style accordingly. It’s all interdependent.

      • exactly if you rag the thing the computer will have to go onto lower power to make it last a lot earlier than if you are smooth…therefore you will be slower.

        been happening in bikes for years. Remember the period where the hondas would just fade with 5 laps to go a few years back.

    • Timothy Katz (@timothykatz) said on 18th February 2014, 7:56

      teams will be able to control fuel flow rates from the pit wall

      Will they? I thought that in-race alteration of any part of the car’s electronic system from the pit was illegal.

      • Robbie said on 18th February 2014, 12:44

        Perhaps it is in reality the pits that tell the drivers, through knowledge gained from telemetry, what setting they must put the car in, no? Point being, it’s not the driver having to control the loud pedal to conserve fuel.

    • Juzh (@juzh) said on 18th February 2014, 9:04

      For the 1000th time: 2 way transmission is FORBIDEN. ONLY driver can make adjustments to the car during the race.

    • HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th February 2014, 12:47

      @timi, I think you are misinterpreting things, not Mcnish. When the driver depresses the torque-control pedal all the way fuel flow will increase untill 10,000 rpm at which point it will be flowing at 100 Kg. per hour which is the maximum rate of flow, chucking the car round, using power oversteer etc. will use more fuel than a smooth balanced style of driving, JB is reknown for his smooth balanced style of driving, if the McLaren is as good as the opposition and fuel use becomes critical JB should be very competitive.

  6. timi (@timi) said on 18th February 2014, 0:58

    Also, Kobayashi if that’s your “diet” food, what’s your food on cheat days???
    That chicken is bathing in a plate of oil haha

  7. 80 dB’s! My washing machine is louder than that. That’s a compliment but I would argue that noise isn’t that problematic in street racing, we’re not talking about old F1 obviously, unless you’re running away from the cops with your boy racer mufflers of course. I think the gases are a bigger factor, I’ve attended some bike races and small promotion events and after a while the gases start to take a hit on you your clothes and everything you eat or drink tastes like co2, it gets uncomfortable after a couple hours.

  8. schooner (@schooner) said on 18th February 2014, 2:54

    Nice to see Mark Donohue’s name crop up. He was my hero way back when I first got into motorsports, and I was even lucky enough to see him on track a few times. In my opinion, the Porsche CanAm 917 turbo (Mark was very instrumental in its development) was the baddest, no holds barred race car ever built. I suppose it’s ironic that it also pretty much marked the end of CanAm series in its glorious unrestricted form. Donohue never made much of an impact in F1, and there are probably many F1fanatics who aren’t aware of the guy and his legacy. He was an amazing engineer, a great driver, and it’s so sad that he left us at such a young age. I highly recommend reading his book, ‘The Unfair Advantage’.

    • bull mello (@bullmello) said on 18th February 2014, 4:22

      Always love to see Donohue’s name come up too. One of my favorite racers ever, he was always so much more than just a driver. He raced in so many different types of race cars and successful in most of them. An amazing guy.

    • GeeMac (@geemac) said on 18th February 2014, 8:57

      I have to admit that I don’t know very much about Donohue, other than that he was an Indy 500 winner. That article was a great read, I don’t ever need an excuse to look at the Porsche 917/30K.

  9. HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th February 2014, 4:27

    Once again F1s conflicting rules conspire to drive up costs and drive down the quality of competition, what could be more stupid than introducing a totally new fuel restricted hybrid PU and at the same time severely restricting testing and then put a freeze on development 2 weeks before it ever gets to race. At a minimum the manufacturers should be allowed to develop the PU package until the summer break.

    • BJ (@beejis60) said on 18th February 2014, 4:49

      That would drive costs further.

      • HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th February 2014, 12:24

        No, it would allow the engine builders to develop their engine on the track over several races, concentrating on unforseen problems that occur under actual racing, with the development freeze taking place before they race they have to try and forsee every possible scenario and ensure that problems that may not even exist are overcome and still they may not have forseen a real problem that does exist.

        • Breno (@austus) said on 18th February 2014, 14:31

          All you said is true, but it would indeed drive costs further.

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 18th February 2014, 18:32

            Well as someone recently said, they have to build the most expensive engine they can to allow for modification on the grounds of cost saving to take place, and, I really think it is simplystic to assume making engines last longer actually saves money and the same applies to development freezes.

  10. GeeMac (@geemac) said on 18th February 2014, 6:29

    A typically Newey/RBR apology there. Two things stand out:

    1) “The Renault seems to have a particularly large cooling requirement”; and
    2) “It was really a lack of time [that caused the problem]. It was something that we could have proved out on the dyno if we had managed to get everything together earlier. But Renault have been up against it in terms of their use of the dyno, we have been up against it making the parts in time.”

    So he is saying yes RBR played a part, but it could have been sorted if Renault had its house in order.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 18th February 2014, 6:54

      It still is a remarkable improvement on what Horner had insisted upon “Renault has issues they have to work on, and we have some minor issues to work on” @geemac. I guess its hard to accept for Adrian that not everything can be worked towards with his design philosophy as focal point at times (as he knows that it is a big factor in success on track).

    • mantresx (@mantresx) said on 18th February 2014, 7:15

      But it’s the truth isn’t it?
      From the Red Bull camp I think he is the most honest when giving interviews, we’re so used to a political Horner or Marko that is easy to believe Newey always has an agenda, I’m not saying he hasn’t in the past but I think in this case he’s just explaining what went wrong.

      • GeeMac (@geemac) said on 18th February 2014, 13:40

        It is true, but after the repeated goes that RBR had at Renault through 2009-2010 about how underpowered their engines where, and then the complete lack of credit Renault seemed to get from 2011-2013 for the role they played in RBR’s success, if I was Renault I’d be a bit miffed that Newey hasn’t taken a bit more of the blame for shrink wrapping the car a bit too much. Particularly so given the number of column inches that have been written about Renault poor show at Jerez which particularly affected RBR.

    • Boomerang said on 18th February 2014, 11:21

      When I saw the exhaust manifold of Renault’s new turbo engine my first thought was: “Wow, to much heat in engine compartment.” But, I had in mind instantly how to solve it. I believe the previous season has taken away plenty of RBR’s resources. Lack of time, says Mr. Newey but I’d say ‘lack of thinking’ as well. RB10 looks great and I hope they will not sacrifice compactness of the car to improve the cooling.
      This is 21st century and I’m convinced that these guys can do much better…
      I’m really looking forward to this season :-)

  11. Nick (@npf1) said on 18th February 2014, 6:52

    I like Jenson and all, but I think every rule change since his 2009 title has been at some point been talked about in articles called ‘rule changes could benefit Button’.

    • andrewf1 (@andrewf1) said on 18th February 2014, 9:01

      Exactly. It’s slowly becoming the motto ahead of every season.

    • JamieFranklinF1 (@jamiefranklinf1) said on 18th February 2014, 9:54

      I can only remember that once, and that was pre-2011, when everyone was talking about the Pirelli tyres coming in. But even then, there were also claims that it would help aggressive drivers too.

      • sato113 (@sato113) said on 18th February 2014, 14:54

        2013 promised tyres that wore even faster than 2011-2012. people were also saying Button could benefit from this change.
        it might have also been the case before 2012 come to think of it.

        • @npf1, @sato113

          And You could argue, that the fading tires opened up for some weird strategies, where Button could do 1-2 stops less than the others. In 2011 only Vettel faired better than him, in 2012 he lost the plot, but it had nothing to do with the new regulations, but the first in season upgrades after Mugello. The 2013 tyres were obviously weak but I cannot remember a time when Button needed more stops than the others to finish a race, so if the car had been a bit better his results could have been mutch better. So I think the rules suited him well, but other factors played a bigger role as they should have.

  12. JCost (@jcost) said on 18th February 2014, 10:53

    On COTD:

    Brilliant

  13. Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 18th February 2014, 11:03

    “Donohue may not have made his mark on F1 but he defined Penske Racing and is fondly remembered by many of us as one of the most astute and complete racers the sport has ever seen.”

    Try to get “The Unfair Advantage”, an almost autobiography by Mark Donohue. Each chapter, you follow the story of each of his cars, from the very beginning to the Porsche 917/30. It’s superb.

  14. BasCB (@bascb) said on 18th February 2014, 16:16

    An interesting read from Paul Tracy about stewarding, and especially about how much of the racing in Indycars and sportscars in the US is in his view “overstewarded” – I agree that there were times when the “you cannot change your line to defend” became ridiculous in IndyCars, although IMO they hit a bit better balance for most of last year there.

  15. I wonder how Adrian has come to the conclusion that the cooling demands are much higher with the Renault than the other two manufacturer’s engines. Purely for observation of cooling duct sizes across the grid?

    I don’t imagine rival manufacturers would be releasing too many details over their products.

    • Robbie said on 18th February 2014, 17:47

      Good question and I imagine the answer is related to the way teams simply seem to have their ways of knowing what the competition is up to in general. How long before one team’s innovation becomes the norm on the grid…that kind of thing.

      AN is probably going by observation of side pod openings, shape of bodywork etc etc…the obvious visual stuff, but I’m sure there are staff members with infra-red temp sensors, cameras etc, trained on the likes of those who have been able to log up the kms in that first test. It seems to be a “hot” issue, pun intended, so I wouldn’t be surprised if RBR went to that test hoping to get a read on the competitions running temps as one of their priorities.

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