Overheating blamed for Mercedes failures

F1 Fanatic Round-up

Nico Rosberg, Mercedes, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, 2014In the round-up: Toto Wolff says that overheating is likely to blame for the dual MGU-K failures that both Hamilton and Rosberg suffered during yesterday’s Canadian Grand Prix.

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Mercedes says overheating caused failures (Autosport)

Toto Wolff: “We had at exactly the same time a failure of the engine control systems, on the ERS, on the MGU-K, with a peak in temperature which was not on our priority list. In that particular part of the MGU-K we saw temperatures which were higher than expected. But we were unaware they could have such a detrimental effect and the MGU-K just shut down and we could not reset it.”

Sir Ben Ainslie targets Adrian Newey to help him win America’s Cup for Great Britain (Daily Mail)

“Sir Ben Ainslie will call upon Adrian Newey, the greatest Formula One designer of his generation, to help him win the 35th America’s Cup for Great Britain. Sportsmail understands that Newey will have a hand in designing the state-of-the art catamaran as the upshot of an ingenious deal announced yesterday by his current employers Red Bull, by which he will remain involved in F1 while taking on a wider brief with the soon-to-be-launched Red Bull Technology Projects.”

Lewis Hamilton admits he has a lot of work to do to get back into the title fight (Sky F1)

Hamilton: “Well I’ve had a lot of work to do since race one – that is now two DNFs that I have had and zero for Nico. We will keep pushing and hopefully comeback stronger in the next race. I was in the lead at the time that it failed. I am two DNFs down – so that is 50 points, or almost 50 points that I have lost so I am going to have to try and recover them somewhere else.”

Others’ mistakes secured fourth for Button (ESPN)

Button: “I don’t think it [the car] quick enough to be fourth, obviously there were incidents and we gained some positions because of that. The important thing is that there is a better feel about the car and we are making progress.”

Chilton retires for the first time in his F1 career (NBC)

“Max Chilton has retired from a grand prix for the first time in his career at the 26th time of asking. The Briton may not have turned many heads during his Formula 1 career so far, but he had managed to finish every race that he had entered until this weekend, giving him the F1 record for the most consecutive finishes as a rookie.”

Debate continues over how much race cars pollute environment (Montreal Gazette)

“The pollution caused by Montreal’s Formula One Grand Prix causes heart attacks, asthma, even deaths. The pollution caused by Montreal’s Formula One Grand Prix is negligible, trivial. Does the truth lie somewhere in between?”

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After Daniel Ricciardo secured his maiden grand prix victory yesterday, @Bullmello is pleased for the Australian.

Congratulations to Ricciardo on his first win. It just shows as a driver and a team you must keep on pushing, you never know what can happen. I love his smile and his attitude. That and his driving ability have me won over as one of my favorite drivers. His move on Perez and subsequently making it stick was the pass of the day for me.

Also thought Vettel showed a lot of class and honest good cheer for Ricciardo in his win. Good to see that.
@bullmello

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On this day in F1

Jody Scheckter claimed his first F1 victory in the Swedish Grand Prix 40 years ago today.

Tyrrell team-mate Patrick Depailler made it a one-two, followed by James Hunt’s Hesketh in third.

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51 comments on Overheating blamed for Mercedes failures

  1. Scalextric (@scalextric) said on 9th June 2014, 1:28

    I’ll be interested to see how F1 technology can be applied to sailing. Packaging a diffuser and maximizing downforce don’t seem to be applicable… But best of luck, Mr. Newey, assuming the Daily Mail are correct, would be great to see a British team have success.

  2. Andres Videla (@videlandres) said on 9th June 2014, 1:30

    Massa on fire!

    • Mach1 (@mach1) said on 9th June 2014, 1:53

      That video makes it look like Massa has just hit one of those speeds boosters from Mario Cart…..

      • Traverse said on 9th June 2014, 4:29

        Super Massa Kart: I don’t know what I’m doing edition.

        Although to be fair, it wasn’t Massa’s fault. On the other hand it’s a shame the collision didn’t happen a few laps earlier as it would’ve released both RIC and VET, both of whom were stuck behind the Lumbering Perez.

  3. dragoll (@dragoll) said on 9th June 2014, 2:04

    “The pollution caused by Montreal’s Formula One Grand Prix causes heart attacks, asthma, even deaths. The pollution caused by Montreal’s Formula One Grand Prix is negligible, trivial. Does the truth lie somewhere in between?”
    Errr…. Really? With the city set to host the GP for a further 10 years, this is how the Montreal Gazette celebrates the signing?
    But just on the technical side of things for a minute, the cars are now 1.6 L turbos, the particulate matter being dispersed out of them is hugely reduced this year, in comparison to last year alone, let alone comparing to the early 90′s when the Ferrari V12′s were pounding around printing cash for AGIP oils and petrol. While I’m not saying that F1 cars are the cleanest vehicles on the planet, surely their lack of running, limited to 3x 90 min practise sessions, and a 1 hour qualy, plus up to a 2 hour race, for 20 odd races per year, and x amount of test sessions, F1 is the least likely motorsport to be contributing hugely to the global warming phenomena. Perhaps look to NASCAR and other oval events that essentially requires a driver to be at full throttle for a very large amount of the time.
    Montreal Gazette, I salute you, and your cause to smear a motorsport that is genuinely reducing its carbon foot print out on the track, and while some of the materials are still exotic, it seems as if they are picking a fight with the wrong sport.

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 9th June 2014, 9:37

      “That’s partly true, said Green — the gas used in F1 has indeed improved.

      But the Grand Prix race, along with Montreal’s fireworks display, are major contributors to the Montreal’s “bad air days”, he said.”

      I know Montreal has a great pollution record, but make a fuss out the limitted emissions of one of the major sports event the city hosts every year is a bit rich.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th June 2014, 14:01

      Really when you read the article, it seems that most of the issues are actually caused more by having a large event per se, where people travel to it (by a lot of cars but also the planes flying them in -as much wanted tourists!), and the noise seen to be most disruptive (hm, so then this year should be better, no?).

      Strange one really, as the only real solution would be to stop trying to promote the city to get international visitors to any events in the city. Maybe someone would be in favour, but I doubt a majority of locals would think that the best approach @dragoll

    • Timothy Katz (@timothykatz) said on 9th June 2014, 20:32

      Were there any support races for the Grand Prix?

  4. Guy (@sudd) said on 9th June 2014, 4:23

    Man, I miss the days when F1 teams had loads of sensors on their cars and real time telemetry/data to detect any looming dangers. Remember the days when they could keep an eye on engine, brake, and tire temps from the pit wall?…oh they can do that now? Well, explain to me how Mercedes could not see looming brake failure? I’ll be waiting for radio transcripts. If it shows the team radioed LH and informed him his brakes were going to fail if he didn’t nurse them to end, then the failure is LH for pushing. I didn’t hear no such thing during the race though. Instant brake failure. Very strange.

    • mantresx (@mantresx) said on 9th June 2014, 5:41

      I’m only guessing but I think it’s because the rear brakes were so on the limit (KERS failed) that when they overheat a little more it only takes a handful of corners to fail completely.

      • Patrick (@paeschli) said on 9th June 2014, 6:19

        The fact that Lewis’s brake balance was more on the rear also played a role

        • Guy (@sudd) said on 9th June 2014, 7:11

          Exactly! Nico asked way earlier in the race what settings Lewis was running. So if LH was already biased towards the rear, his temps would have already been running high or unsafe levels long before the second pit stop.

          This was a temperature issue, and temps rise incrementally so the engineers could have seen that coming. How could they not? And why was Nico concerned about the brakes?

          The fact of the matter is the majority of braking is done by the front. I’m guessing Nico was overheating his front brakes and LH was probably doing the same as Canada is very hard on the brakes. Lots of slow corners. So dialing a little rear bias would allow the fronts to cool. But if its too much to the rear, you will see temps start to rise especially when the MGU fails. Remember they drove for many laps without MGU, so if the rear brakes were taking a beating during those laps, temps would have been rising and data telemetry would have shown that. Next step would be to radio to the driver and tell him to nurse it. We didn’t hear any of that. The both lost MGU but I don’t think Rosberg had any braking problems, just down about 160hp.

          The power lose was obvious, they went for many laps without. The second they lost it, they should have advised the drivers to run front bias if they want to make it home. The brake failure was just instant. He came out of the pits and a few corners later he was done. How does that happen when its a temp issue. If the rotor exploded or brake fluid was lost, I’d understand.

    • Keith Campbell (@keithedin) said on 9th June 2014, 13:27

      If only smart guys like you worked for Mercedes F1…

      Sorry, i don’t object to you raising the point just the tone is a bit condescending. I think brake temps went up quite a lot during the pitstop (because when stationary there is no airflow to cool them) which is why they failed on the next big braking zone after the stop. I don’t know all the specifics but i’m sure Mercedes would have given strict instructions to both drivers if they saw any danger before it became critical.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th June 2014, 14:06

      What makes you believe they have less sensors and can monitor less things now compared to any year before @sudd? Instead its rather likely they have far MORE things to watch, monitor etc.

      But realistically, apart from advising their drivers what settings to choose for least heat development paired with a driving style that is trying to cope with it, there is just not that much they can do about it. Calling their cars in for repairs might have been an option had this been an endurance race, but surely that is no option in an F1 race.

  5. David not Coulthard (@davidnotcoulthard) said on 9th June 2014, 4:27

    Doyou need Flash for the Vine Video? I can’t seem to get it to start.

  6. Sri Harsha (@harsha) said on 9th June 2014, 6:19

    The awareness of Sebastian is amazing he might have collected or at worse Injured as well if not for the reaction he made .

  7. pH (@ph) said on 9th June 2014, 6:36

    After the success of Canada, Bernie will surely want a new rule: At every GP, the team that is currently leading WCC must have its electric part of PU disabled.

  8. AdrianMorse (@adrianmorse) said on 9th June 2014, 6:52

    I read Craig Scarborough’s analysis of the Mercedes failure on Autosport, and it stated that Hamilton has already gone through 3 electronic control units this season (to Rosberg’s 2), and you are allowed 5, or incur a 10-place grid penalty.

    Yesterday’s race was great, but Hamilton’s bad luck left me a little depressed, and makes me feel he just doesn’t have the luck to win the title this year. Rosberg, on the other hand, has been luckier this year, especially yesterday.

    I sometimes read comments to the effect that “Rosberg will get his bad luck”, but that doesn’t me make sense to me. It’s not as if, with two races to go, he will automatically DNF those to make up for the bad luck Lewis had earlier. Instead, it’s more likely that Hamilton’s tail-end of the season will be littered with engine-related grid penalties.

    Good for me that Ricciardo won the race, otherwise my mood would have been darker still.

    • PorscheF1 (@xtwl) said on 9th June 2014, 7:28

      @adrianmorse Hamilton used all his luck in 2008.

      It rarely happens a driver finishes all races in one season. Except Chilton I even doubt anyone has ever done that. Rosberg will get his bad luck somewhere. They both had the same problem, it might aswell have been Hamilton his style to wreck the brakes more which means it had nothing to do with luck but with his driving style.

      First of all, don’t be sad, the championship is still 12 races long with double points at the end. Don’t go around spreading Hamilton can’t win because he has no ‘luck’.

      • HoHum (@hohum) said on 9th June 2014, 8:05

        by “driving style” I assume you mean “faster”

        • PorscheF1 (@xtwl) said on 9th June 2014, 9:46

          @hohum

          Hamilton fans make me not want to comment on F1Fanatic…

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 9th June 2014, 23:02

            @xtwf, I am not a Hamilton fan per se, but I understand your point, my point as explained by @bascb below is that Hamiltons late braking skill contributes to his ability to catch his teamate without cutting chicanes, sure it is harder on the brakes, but only, I believe when he is actually driving faster, Lewis has demonstrated in past races that he can lift and coast with the best of them.

          • HoHum (@hohum) said on 9th June 2014, 23:03

            @xtwl

        • BasCB (@bascb) said on 9th June 2014, 14:09

          yes, Hamilton is better on the brakes (crucial here), but its probably also a bit tougher for the equipment @hohum. So if the equipment starts to give way, I guess its not unlikely to affect Hamilton more. On the other hand, had Rosberg been the one running all race behind his teammates car, I would harbour a guess he would have been almost as likely to lose his brakes, as they were not in much better state after losing the MGU-K.

      • AdrianMorse (@adrianmorse) said on 9th June 2014, 8:09

        @xtwl, “Rosberg will get his bad luck somewhere.” Of course, this is entirely possible. However, with this kind of comment the writer usually seems to imply that from now on, Rosberg will get more bad luck than Hamilton, evening out the ‘bad luck tally’. I do not believe in any higher power governing bad luck in motorsport, and I do not see any other reason why Rosberg will, from now on, get more bad luck than Hamilton.

        As for drivers not finishing all races in a season, well, the likelihood of that is much higher if that driver is always at the front (or at the back ;-)

        As for my “Hamilton does not have the luck to win the title”, yes it’s a bit melodramatic, but so far Hamilton has had two mechanical failures in 7 races – that’s pretty unlucky in my book, especially with his championship rival finishing 1 or 2 in every race.

        Finally, I think Hamilton’s brake failure could perhaps be attributed to his brake bias being further to the rear, and more importantly being in the hot air of Rosberg’s car for most of the race. Sure, if he had hung back 2.5 seconds from Rosberg the entire race and not put any pressure on him he might have finished the race, but I hardly feel his retirement yesterday was his fault.

        • kpcart said on 9th June 2014, 14:00

          then at the same time, he should have done a better job in qualifying and started ahead of rosberg? maybe also not outbreak himself in turn one when he was past rosberg…. this year Hamilton has had luck also – with the Mercedes team philosophy of pitting the car in front first – this helped Hamilton in the wins he has had, and also for rosberg in the wins he has had. Mercedes should let the drivers choose when to pit. interesting in this race Hamilton got past Rosberg for half a lap, not through any move on track, but because Rosberg had a slow pitstop. the drivers are so evenly matched. I was expecting Hamilton to dominate Rosberg, this has not happened, he is about .1 to .2 seconds faster in qualifying but both are nearly equal in races. Lewises harder driving style may well have hurt the car just that bit extra to breaking point, while Rosbergs car just survived.

      • JCost (@jcost) said on 9th June 2014, 9:43

        @xtwl

        One thing I know is: if Lewis Hamilton wins the championship luck will not be a factor…

      • Sven (@crammond) said on 9th June 2014, 9:52

        @xtwl “It rarely happens a driver finishes all races in one season. Except Chilton I even doubt anyone has ever done that.”

        Kimi, Heidfeld.

        However, Lewis has at least one collision/driver-error-DNF per season, that´s still to come this year.

      • Aled Davies (@aledinho) said on 9th June 2014, 9:55

        Actually it has, Schumacher finished every race of the 2002 season, on the podium too1

      • David Margono (@woshidavid95) said on 9th June 2014, 14:53

        @xtwl
        Heidfeld also managed to finish all the races in 2008, just pointing out

  9. Funkyf1 (@funkyf1) said on 9th June 2014, 10:05

    Essentially two drivers in the same team drive the same car (enter conspiracy theories here) despite suttle changes to suit there style. By no means am I blaming Hamiltons driving style, but this surely had to be part of the reason he’s car failed. There has been many discussions over the years regarding reliability of teammates cars, the Vettel Vs Webber debate has been analylized down to the last wheel nut I believe and there has even been discussions is as to why DR has had more luck/reliability than Seb. The fact of the matter is no two drivers drive the same although the may have similar performance out of the same car, they get this result via their setup. Lewis and Nico have been trying to elimate each others speed all year and this means pushing the boundaries, trying different bias, different cambers etc. Lewis without a doubt was fighting the car and trying to keep the lead at the time of the dual Mercedes failure, this lil extra fraction on friction I believe was the defining factor as to why his car let go and Nico nursed his home

    • DaveW (@dmw) said on 9th June 2014, 17:46

      Is Keith going to have to post his link about the Webber-bad-reliability fallacy yet again? That is not a thing. I had to be shown the light once too, but the data are definitive.

      Furthermore, driver’s hurting cars by their “style” is not a thing anymore. This is not back when people had to push in a clutch to change gears and where the rev limiter was your right foot. I think a driver can no more hurt the car that I can hurt my dishwasher by mashing the buttons too hard, provided he is doing what the pit wall is telling him to do.

  10. Funkyf1 (@funkyf1) said on 9th June 2014, 10:12

    Regarding my above comment – Elimate = emulate

  11. Spencer Ward (@sward28) said on 9th June 2014, 15:05

    Have no clue what Chilton is thinking, clear case of denial.

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