Engine rules should let teams catch up – Newey

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In the round-up: Red Bull chief technical officer Adrian Newey claims the 2014 engine regulations were originally intended to let manufacturers who had fallen behind to catch up.

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One of the interesting questions of this off-season has been whether Nico Rosberg will begin the new championship with the same advantage over his world champion team mate that he ended 2015.

Hamilton had already lost his pace advantage before Mexico. His wins in Russia and USA were incredibly circumstantial and lucky. Both of the safety cars played perfectly into his hands in USA while Rosberg was dominating the race (10 second gap). In Russia, I have little doubt that Rosberg would have won had his car remained reliable. Rosberg also out-qualified Lewis in the last 6 races, a streak which began well before Hamilton wrapped up the drivers’ championship.

The latter stages of 2015, just like the second half of 2013, was just one of those periods where Rosberg was faster than Hamilton. No apparent explanation.
@Kingshark

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Keith Collantine
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55 comments on “Engine rules should let teams catch up – Newey”

  1. Can anybody say if this is the actual Fernando Alonso offering to be ‘roasted’ on reddit or just a lookalike??
    https://www.reddit.com/r/RoastMe/comments/44cp5b/i_dont_know_if_ill_make_it_to_the_end_of_this/

    1. It’s Alonso but its photoshopped, the lines of the paper have been blanked so whoever did it could write over it.

      1. Actually looking at it in photoshop, messing with the colours, it looks real haha

  2. How many times do we have to read the same thing over and over again? Not every news is worth featuring.

    1. For as long as Newey/Red Bull continue to whinge about the same things. So, probably until death, since I can’t see them not whinging even if they follow through on their 450,000th threat to quit the sport.

      1. @hairs specially when FIA tweaks the rules in favour of a team after constant lobbying: we need to know where that comes from… this constant whining will have an effect some day and it’s worth knowing how it developed from start to finish.

      2. That puts them 3rd behind Ferrari and Mercedes in most threats to quit the sport.

        do you approve of Merc and Ferrari threats without action?

        1. And when did Mercedes as a full factory team threatened to quit the sport more times than Red Bull?

          1. all the top teams threaten to quit, you know that.

            But speaking of full factory teams threatening to quit, merc seems to be Leading that crying/quitting category for factory teams.

            Red bull is just a customer team.

            Lamborghini will change that though.

          2. Here’s one
            Here’s a Ferrari one
            Here’s another confirming Mercedes first threat to quit after the fact.

            Plus Red Bull’s threat to quit (which was just one threat, though it seems to have fed ‘journalists’ for the entire year). So that makes it one a piece in recent history. Of course Mercedes are the only ones to have actual quit F1, albeit in 1955 after the Lemans disaster.

        2. Can you give me the exact amounts from each team please? There is no substance to your comment.

          1. The point is, both teams have made the same threats.

      3. I honestly wish Red Bull would shut up.

        So boring.

        They’re like ‘that guy’ you work with that’s always ill with something.

    2. Surely we would rather have the opportunity to decide ourselves what is and isn’t relevant? Or would you prefer Keith chose to only display articles in favour of one team?

      Duplication or regurgitation articles would be unnecissary but I haven’t seen an article previously discussing how there was a balancing system planned but never implemented for the current gen engines and if there has been such an article I suspect the duplication is Neweys by saying the same thing in another interview rather than Keith’s showing a second article based on the same interview.

  3. Gutierrez looks like a 12 years old in that picture!

    1. For a second I only saw the top half of the photo and wondered if it was Ferrari’s new academy kid stood next to his Mini Max…

  4. How do they find the ‘teams that are behind part’?

    I am not sure if we even have the official figures from all manufacturers about the amount of power their engine produces. Without it, it is going to be difficult to establish that.

    Also just because a car produces a larger peak power than the competition, doesn’t mean it will not need any tweaks. Finally, this is asking the opponent to fight with one hand behind his back while giving the other man a baseball bat in a boxing match.

    And Bottas, if the Ferrari rumors affected you to the extent that you suffered a drop in performance, I doubt you are the right guy for the red team. For some people, it would have made them perform at a higher level.

    1. “And Bottas, if the Ferrari rumors affected you to the extent that you suffered a drop in performance, I doubt you are the right guy for the red team. For some people, it would have made them perform at a higher level.”

      Exactly. After cracking like that it’s gonna take a bit to gain his credibility back, I’d say anything less than a win in an inferior car or he’s doomed. He’s a likeable guy, so I understand why people still rate him, but come on, Ferrari shows interest and you fall apart? This is F1.

      1. mmm yeah that’s one of those things that are really hard to judge, how does a driver cope with the pressure whether he’s at risk of loosing his seat, possibly going to a better team or worse still fighting for the championship, in theory Valtteri is used to it, having won in the lower categories but every situation is different.
        But yes the fact that he admitted it himself and even the engineers know and talk about it is kind of worrying.

      2. “And Bottas, if the Ferrari rumors affected you to the extent that you suffered a drop in performance, I doubt you are the right guy for the red team. For some people, it would have made them perform at a higher level.”

        Agree. Honestly, Bottas hasn’t impressed me too much on his pace. I always thought he was strong headed, cool under pressure and consistent though. If Ferrari rumours cracked him, then he really isn’t as strong headed and cool under pressure.

        Doubt any top team would really want a driver who can’t face this kind of pressure. There is no way he’s be able to handle a championship fight…. and unlike a small dip in performance that can be ignored at Williams, a WDC fight doesn’t give you second chances or opportunities to ‘learn from’.

        Bottas just isn’t top drawer material in my books, although I see a lot of F1fanatic readers think differently.

    2. @evered7 Agreed. Yes, “everyone” might know that Mercedes have the best engines and that Renault are some way behind but how much exactly? I have only seen estimations and I am not sure if it is even possible to separate an engine from the rest of the car and independently measure its performance (which would not be its “peak” performance, as you say).

      As a fan, I also do not care if one F1 team is one second ahead of the rest because it has the best engine or if another team is half a second ahead because it has nailed the aerodynamics. As long as someone is clearly better than the others, it does not matter how big their advantage is and how they have secured it. If you want to make sure that racing is unpredictable, then equalised engine performance in no way guarantees that.

  5. Newey sounds like an hypocrite, I don’t think he’s one yet he keeps exposing the problems yet he never gives any answers.

    1. He is probably right in that the token system was probably intended to reduce differences in performance between the hybrid engine systems, and probably also intended to reduce costs as well, but it should have been obvious that it was more likely to mean those who had got more and those who didn’t have got less.
      F1 is, in part, a technology race, so it is obvious that tokens are a bit like fitting a parachute to cars that finish down the field. They just make it harder for those behind to catch up.

  6. Red Bull Lamborghini

    Everything Red Bull says between now and 2017 is a complete smokescreen. In fact just about everything RB says is smokescreen, yet fans still seem unable to grasp this simple concept.

    Stop reacting to headlines with emotions. Read between the lines. F1 is way more interesting when you actually appreciate behind the scenes.

    1. Yeah, agreed that red bull are playing a game, but they all do and this is a shark pit. Eat or be eaten.

      But the rumours of red bull Lambo …. Any substance ? Links? I’m fascinated but not convinced.

      Also what newey is saying is still true…and like u say it’s the politics and power plays in f1 that make the sport interesting.

    2. I really don’t see it happening, Lambo is part of the VW group and the f1 rumours for them stopped at the emissions scandal. Give it 4 or 5 years and maybe they’ll enter, but not yet.

      1. The rumors stopped because it was politically bad timing to announce entry.

        However lambo will not be held down by VW executive mistakes and red bull is fronting a portion of the development bill.

        The program was under development when the emissions scandal broke and did not lose any steam. They now have more time to run unlimited testing and make sure they don’t pull a Honda.

        Timing is everything.

        1. You’ve been talking about this Red Bull Lamborghini deal for ages and all over the place. Is there even one trusted source where you got this information from?

          It does make logical sense why VW would want to leverage the Lambo brand IF they ever consider entering the sport. But there is a big IF before that.

          Why didn’t you choose another automobile conglomerate? Like Toyota maybe? Who want to come back and beat Honda. Or General Motors, who could leverage Corvette with Red Bull. Considering there is an increased presence of F1 in the US of A, it would be ideal to get an American car company in the mix. What about BMW? Wouldn’t they want to get in the mix and try and be the next German PU maker that changes the game?

          Why are you stuck on Lamborghini?

          1. I’m sorry you missed every relevant point I made.

            good luck out there!

  7. It’s annoying that it’s Red Bull saying it, but Newey is basically correct isn’t he? The engine situation is a massive arms race and Renault are going to have to spend big to catch up. But they can spend big if they want to – they measure their trade in billions so a hundred million or two isn’t a barrier really, when we consider the payback in road car technology and brand promotion.

    Toto was saying Merc’s exposure last year was valued at €3bn, and they’re all going to want mgu-h in their road cars by the sound of it.

    Newey’s right about how the engine suppliers can control all the other teams, too. Software is very, very easy to manipulate after all. So there are only two teams in it for now, and only a maximum of four if and when Renault and Honda get their act together. But as things settle down Ferrari will want their customer teams to beat the Merc customer teams, and vice-versa, so I don’t think things are so bad we need a spec engine or contrived equality. The DFV era was just one era out of several.

    I don’t know what the entire solution is, or if a solution is even needed, but anyway I love these engines. I love the sound, the outrageous torque and power and efficiency.

    I have to admit I’m also loving that Adrian Newey, who was allowed to use the FIA’s own test table to disguise his bendy floor (while McLaren weren’t even allowed to use the tolerance laid out in black and white in the rules), hasn’t got the best one :)

    1. I don’t think its that easy to “manipulate” the SW at all @lockup. Or at least not without others noticing. The FIA has the right to look into the software for example.

      1. What basis do you have for saying that @bascb? A million lines of low-level code, you can’t just ‘inspect’ it. Take just that lap-by-lap learning for example – how hard would it be to make it a bit less effective? I can’t see how Newey would be wrong.

        1. @lockup, Section 8 in the technical regulations state that the teams have to submit all of their software packages to the FIA prior to the start of the season and can only use those programs if they are inspected and confirmed as being acceptable by the FIA’s Technical Department. Equally, every time that the team changes the version of the software that they use, they have to register that version of their software package with the FIA before being permitted to use it.

          Asides from that, there is also the fact that a proportion of the hardware – such as the ECU, for example – are standardised between teams and can only use software packages approved by the FIA, with the teams subjected to randomised testing over the season to monitor the ECU software (and Newey should be very familiar with that given Red Bull were subject to an investigation by the FIA after questions were raised over some of the settings in their ECU software a few years ago). The fact that a sizeable chunk of the hardware and software is standardised should mean that the FIA only has to check a limited section of the raw code.

          1. @anon, the FIA only checks if regulations are respected. There are no rules forcing manufacturers to supply identical software to costumer teams.

            @lockup, You hit the nail on it’s head. Very nicely summed up. COTD for me.

          2. Fair enough as far as that goes @anon but Adrian Newey doesn’t seem convinced, just as Merc and a lot of others weren’t convinced when an FIA delegate ‘inspected’ Ferrari’s use of Haas’ aero work. FIA don’t distribute compiled programs to teams, after all. I bet there’s plenty of wiggle room.

  8. How much ridicule would a designer or team principal get thrown at themselves for saying “aero rules should let teams catch up”.

    Sorry Newey, you guys just have to raise your game, just like others did in the past

    1. Exactly. If you are going to have rules that equalise engines, why stop there?

    2. @bascb, Aero rules do let teams catch up. Every surface is in plain sight. Teams can take a picture and copy. This is exactly what has always been done: the F-duct, double DRS, double diffusers etc were all copied by other teams. Most recent example: Mclarens late 2014 Red Bull front wing.

      1. But nobody caught up to RBR’s diffuser, because you can’t just take a picture and duplicate something aero wise and have it work just like that, because it is about the whole design, front to back, and Newey knows that. You might implement something you saw over time and include it with a redesign but you don’t just see one, make one, slap one on, and have it work for you just as well. Otherwise SV would have had more challengers more quickly.

        1. @robbie, I’m not talking about Red Bulls diffuser actually. I was referring to Brawns 2009 double diffuser which gave the team an enormous advantage. But because it was in plain sight rivals were able to implement their own versions further into that season.

          As for the point you’re trying to make, all I can say if a team can replicate an effect even through it’s in plain sight, then that’s their loss.

  9. I was thinkig of a way to make performance of each engine relatively equal yet let them be a detrimental factor on a race if it could.

    Just spit-balling an idea but what if engines where built to a specification but each team had to use a specific piece of software chosen at the start of the season. Similar to what you would find in a video game you could have a bunch of engine aspects (Eg. Top speed, acceleration, fuel consumption etc) and teams would get a finite amount of points to allocate to each one.

    So for example, Mercedes could say they wanted 4/5 points put on top speed, 2/5 points on acceleration, 1/5 points on fuel consumption etc.. Whereas Ferrari could go for 1/5 points on top speed, 3/5 points on acceleration, 3/5 points on fuel consumption etc..

    This could provide variation, equal power units and cut costs.. everyone wins.

    A lot of people are suggesting that engine software and mapping is what differs Mercedes to the teams they supply so surely this could achieved?

    1. ColdFly F1 (@)
      7th February 2016, 8:56

      Maybe we should make F1 a video game, @giggsy11. Then we don’t need the halos either ;-)

  10. Performance balancing is a very touchy subject regardless of which aspect motorsport you are looking at.

    As far as I’m concerned, BoP should remain solely in GT/slower prototype racing and to a degree IndyCar (only to keep all cars within safe speeds on the ovals). If we start introducing BoP into the likes of F1, we risk slowing the cars down, slowing down the rate of development in technology and we risk a lot of arguments about whether it works or not.

    BoP can work in other series however and it should remain just to those series. The Rolex 24 and the Bathurst 12 Hours are very good recent examples.

  11. Since Red Bull keep repeating their objections again and again, I can only repeat my question: Why have any engine or chassis development at all if the aim is to equalise everything anyway? Let us have standardised cars and budget caps. Then Red Bull will have to fight not only Ferrari and Mercedes but Manor and Sauber as well.

  12. Maybe F1 would be better in the long run for both the fans and teams if once and for all the “teams” made there own engines such as Ferrari Mercedes Renault
    For all the other teams that don’t want to produce there own engine they team up with a engine manufacturer or a car maker that wants to have there engine in F1 before they fully commit to building there Own car.
    I would also think that the car manufacturers again Ferrari Mercedes Renault don’t supply any other team this would either force the likes of red bull to build there own or team up with a manufacturer.
    It would be easier for everyone then to then say the Ferrari or the red bull or the Williams is a better package and drivers become another important point of interest not just who has the best engine at the which is was the Mercedes for 2015 and maybe 2016

    Does anyone remember when red bull was cool and went out as a team and won so many races ?
    Maybe they need stop whining and look back on those days either stop bagging F1 and get on with it or spread there wings and bugger off and let F1 get back to being a Motorsport with the best machines and best drivers fighting for a Motorsport trophy.
    That frankly goes for the other teams as well if you don’t have the money and resources look for a cheaper formula
    F1 is expensive that’s why it’s the pinicle of Motorsport

    1. “Does anyone remember when red bull was cool and went out as a team and won so many races ?”

      Not really, no…

      I remember they were cool and funky and the youthful rebel-rousers, then they started winning and became annoying and strait-laced and “establishment” pretty much overnight, and then they stopped winning and instantly became unbearably huffy and whiny and generally “taking my ball away” bad losers. It’s the three ages of Red Bull.

      To the actual Newey comments, two things:

      1 – I said this in the previous seasons a few years back when engine performance was more or less frozen: there’s no point everyone spending a huge amount of money on a key area for the FIA to basically ensure they’re all at the same level. You might as well have a cheap spec engine and put a different logo on it for every team.

      2 – I’m guessing Newey would have plenty to say about a set of regs that said the development of aerodynamics was frozen but teams that were behind would still be allowed to keep developing.

  13. I like AN I really do, but I think his quotes are full of mixed messages. I’m glad they only proposed but didn’t follow through on the concept of only letting the teams who are behind catch up. I see that as no different than rewarding a team for a job well done by adding 40 kilos to, in the current case, Mercedes.

    He warns of a spending race, which is why tokens have been used, yet wants tokens removed. But only for some. And how does one determine how much a team is behind due to their PU, vs their chassis, or more importantly these days the chassis/PU marriage?

    Back when RBR was having the regs for rear diffusers reduce some of their advantage AN bemoaned that as being manipulation to curtail their domination, and now that he is not dominating he wants the same to happen to Merc only with respect to PU’s so I guess I can’t blame him. However, back then the aero regs affected every team equally whereas now he wants only some teams to be able to catch up. Back then sure the lessening of the exhaust blown rear diffuser affected RBR the most as they had mastered it the best, but those who ‘took pictures of it’ and were planning to implement it (AN makes that sound so easy) were also curtailed therefore from copying it.

    Renault had the same chance to nail their PU as everyone else, and they didn’t, just as all teams had a chance to nail EBD’s but didn’t. That’s F1 for ya, and inevitably a dominant team has it’s wings clipped for fear of that being too predictable and bad for viewership. So don’t worry AN Merc’s wings will be clipped, but I hope it is due to something that affects all teams equally, not through weighing only the winners down. Shouldn’t Merc be allowed the same four year run first AN?

  14. Re COTD – I absolutely agree @kingshark. Tried to bring that point up numerous times around late 2015.

    I don’t know how it will be once racing resumes in March, but that three-race winning streak from Rosberg was no fluke – it could easily have been longer with a touch more luck.

    Hamilton will have to pump himself up for a 4th championship if he’s to regain the upper hand. Or sort out that new suspension which will presumably return on the W07 as well. And/or. It seems anything less than 100% from Lewis is not cutting it versus Rosberg at the moment. I think if Lewis does 100% like he did from Spa 2014 to Singapore 2015, he’ll still win but I feel like that’s a big ‘if.’

  15. Mark in Florida
    7th February 2016, 20:21

    Ha ha ha Newey your always good for a laugh. Mr. Whatsamattershitz has really got you trained to bark annoyingly on cue. I tell you what, you give up your chassis secrets for Mercedes engine secrets so everything can be fair right across the board. This continuous nonsense from Red Bull is beyond bearable. The only way that other teams can catch up is to free up development. If anyone cares to remember it was Illien who developed the Indy car engine for Rodger Penske, it was named the Beast because it was so powerful. If Renault had of swallowed their pride earlier and asked for help they probably wouldn’t be so far behind. Mario knows how to build an engine. If Renault will give him the resources he can do wonders in a short amount of time. Red Bull, Newey shut the duck up you’re totally quackers.

  16. Rumor is the LMP1 test bed isnt an entry in to WEC (or similar series) nor is Lamborghini entering the LMP1 category, it’s a test chassis (perhaps you could say borrowed) and unregulated by any current FIA regulations due to Lambo’s non-manu/pu-supplier status.

    even if the LMP1 rumor is out of date or incorrect, the VW PU program is still in unlimited testing stage. Red Bull did not spend 400 million on just 2 cars last season…

    loop holes my friend, the spice of F1.

  17. I guess Newey should just concentrate on the safety of his steering column designs these past 22 years.

    1. Aerodynamicists don’t design steering columns. Also even if they did your attempt at a joke makes no sense, considering no more columns have failed since then on any of his cars, so it would be safe to assume they did ‘concentrate’ these past years. Poor taste joke/comedy fail right there.

      1. Newey is a TD not aerodynamicist (although that may well be his main point of expertise)

        I admit my comment is far from great but I feel it matches Neweys stupidity in making comments about engines should be equal. This is no different than saying aero should be equal. With an equal budget to manufacturers he thinks it is fair that his team gets an engine for less than 5% of their budget then spend 95% on aero where manufacturers have to spend 50/50. Luckily he will not get his way and hopefully will go and design yachts that do not require engines.

        1. You think it’s lucky that a man with the talent newey has wants to leave the sport?

          F1 fans, F1’s real problem.

          #pointproven

          1. His talent is great but his delusion regarding the merits of aero over engines is not. The 2 parts should be of equal importance as should suspension and other areas.

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