“No conspiracy” behind Mercedes’ Singapore slump

45 comments on ““No conspiracy” behind Mercedes’ Singapore slump”

1. 

   dragoll (@dragoll)
   20th September 2015, 0:17

   “It’s just like having a new girlfriend: it takes time to know what the other means and needs.”

   Haha, great quote from Perez on his new race engineer this year. He is a great down to earth guy
   1. 

      CarWars (@maxv)
      20th September 2015, 8:59

      He is also having a great season and showing his skills. Hoping for something special in Mexico.
   2. 

      Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
      20th September 2015, 9:52

      @dragoll I thought that was a great quote too! For the benefit of anyone who may not know his race engineer this year is Tim Wright, who worked with Kamui Kobayashi at Caterham last year.
2. 

   dragoll (@dragoll)
   20th September 2015, 0:20

   That is now 2 qualifying sessions in a row where Ferrari really have found some extra pace. Imagine if they could just eek out a little more from the ERS/KERS system, they really wouldn’t be that far behind Mercedes at all… I’m really starting to wonder if Mercedes really do have a capable aero package, or if it has its weaknesses on slow speed circuits?
   1. 

      @HoHum (@hohum)
      20th September 2015, 0:37

      @dragoll, How keen do you think they (Ferrari) will be to supply RBR with engines next year after this little display of chassis competence.
      1. 

         Fast
         20th September 2015, 2:59

         Plus, it appears even after all their struggles, the Renault is not that bad — at least when the track requires mid-range torque. Top speed is easy to find, making it reliable is the challenge. Engines with torque and chassis’ with high-exit speeds out of corners win championships. The astute Horner knows that too. They had won 4 with the same concept. The RedBull charade all year has been about something else. (and its been bad for F1)
   2. 

      Atticus (@atticus-2)
      20th September 2015, 0:41

      Ferrari was definitely the closest on track with predominantly low-speed corners, like Monaco and the Hungaroring. Vettel even had a searing pace coming from the back in Montreal. And they’ve also been the closest here last year too.

      I think Mercedes do have a capable aero package, it’s just that aero does not weight as much more here compared to mechanical grip as it does on other tracks – and in terms of mechanical grip, James Allison seems to have nailed this Ferrari about as much as he nailed his 2012-2013 Loti.

      Mercedes cannot use its other big strength, power, either as you’ve said.

      All in all, I guess it’s been a perfect storm once (again, like in Sepang, although with other bunch of factors lining up): less reliance on aero, on power, higher tyre pressures, bumpier track, long layout to accentuate differences and Vettel and Ricciardo who’ve always done exceptionally well here (prolly only Alonso matches them here).
      1. 

         Atticus (@atticus-2)
         20th September 2015, 0:45

         And setup issues.
         1. 

            Albrecht
            20th September 2015, 0:58

            Are you supposes to use “loti”? The latinized plural is only meant for common nouns, as far as I know you use “Lotuses” for proper nouns.
            1. 

               Atticus (@atticus-2)
               20th September 2015, 10:27

               The “general internet” says both are correct.

               But if you look around searching for “colin chapman lotus plural” a lot of results pop up claiming the man himself wished the plural of his cars specifically to remain simply Lotus. (OK, the cars of Team Enstone are not his per se, but still. I think I’ll just go by this one from now on.)
      2. 

         Sensord4notbeingafanboi (@peartree)
         20th September 2015, 1:53

         I agree with atticus, adding to what i wrote on the subject. The thing is even with a perfect storm merc is fastest aniwsy anyhow., the perfect storm theory would not cover merc top form in Monaco. This must be a gama-ray storm, merc was 1.4 off the pace.
         1. 

            Atticus (@atticus-2)
            20th September 2015, 10:29

            Yeah, basically. (‘Gamma-ray storm hit Mercedes’, that would make for some title, isn’t it? :D)
      3. 

         JCost (@jcost)
         20th September 2015, 12:00

         Maybe it’s more a set-up issue than poor chassis. Mercedes was very good at Monaco were power is not the main currency as well.
   3. 

      Sensord4notbeingafanboi (@peartree)
      20th September 2015, 1:45

      Hamilton’s pole at monza was a scruffy lap, inaccurate car not hitting the apex, too stiff. In fp the merc was too stiff and in qualifying too soft. I think merc have justed struggled with something. The pace is still underneath. it’s not all engine look at all other merc teams, they would never beat rbr or ferrari on chassis alone, yet even with their problems they were ahead of their costumers.
   4. 

      anon
      20th September 2015, 8:00

      dragoll, part of the reason why Ferrari have been quicker in qualifying in the past two races is precisely because they modified the engine and ERS in Monza so they can run a more aggressive mode in qualifying. It was also why, in Monza, Vettel was nowhere near Hamilton in race trim and was being caught by Rosberg until his engine blew – because the team could only use that mode in qualifying trim, not race trim, the performance gap opened back up again.
3. 

   @HoHum (@hohum)
   20th September 2015, 0:31

   No conspiracy!? Of course it’s a conspiracy, Bernie has found Mercs achilles heel in the supersofts, expect even more races with the supersoft in future. I say this in jest but a little voice keeps telling me that Bernie is not beyond a little manipulation to improve the show.

   However a look at sector times and speed trap results suggest MB could afford to run more wing, RBR ,( Danric in particular) are not compensating for their power deficit in any way but are quicker than the Mercs around the track, but I expect their lack of pace in sector 1 will cost them places on lap1, it should be interesting.
   1. 

      Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
      20th September 2015, 9:54

      @hohum

      Mercs achilles heel in the supersofts

      I think it’s more than that. They haven’t been very good on the softs this weekend either: Hamilton has admitted as much and Vettel was faster on those in final practice.
4. 

   Atticus (@atticus-2)
   20th September 2015, 0:35

   Points:

   – Combined sector times show Massa left .5s and one grid spot in his lap. The Williams is going to eat up its rear tyres pretty quick if Massa’s Friday long run and team pressers are anything to go by.
   – As for Mansell’s four-wheel-off-track remark: Verstappen actually did a worse 3rd sector than his best during his last lap tank-slapper moment, I’d guess that’s why he kept his time without a word. It was an awesome save (seen in the background as Hamilton (?) was crossing the line).
   – There are rumours Sainz might have to change his gearbox and thus incur a 5-place grid penalty. I don’t know if it’s in the media, I’ve read it on Twitter from a Spanish journo.
   – JPM is 40 – he’ll try an LMP1 Porsche or so I’ve heard soon. He really ponders that Triple Crown, isn’t he?
   – Rosberg describes Vettel on his pole lap as a guy ‘on a different planet’, but I’ve so grown to like how NASCAR drivers refer to such situations with the remark ‘he’s in a different zip code.’
   1. 

      ColdFly F1 ( @coldfly ) (@)
      20th September 2015, 9:02

      @atticus-2, do you know how much Verstappen lost during his excursion (e.g. difference to his sector 3 time in Q2)? Would he be even further up the grid?

      PS who us @atticus?
      1. 

         Atticus (@atticus-2)
         20th September 2015, 10:45

         Yep, it was 0.105s, the deficit of his Q3 S3 compared to his best S3. He wouldn’t have gained a place with that one. He did gain one, but as I’ve remarked right above my Verstappen comment, that was down to Massa making a big mistake on his final Q3 lap.

         Haha, I don’t know who ‘atticus-1’ is – considering he last logged in more than 3 years ago and has no activity, he (she) is just someone who made me accomodate the number 2 to my name. ‘It is what it is.’ (More recently, I use ‘Atticvs’ if ‘Atticus’ is taken, but this is an old account, I’m here since… 2010? Perhaps. Keith’s excellent, and at the time absolutely unique, analyses lured me here.)

         @coldfly
   2. 

      Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
      20th September 2015, 10:17

      @atticus-2

      He really ponders that Triple Crown

      Would love to see him attempt it. It’s a big ask though.
      1. 

         Atticus (@atticus-2)
         20th September 2015, 10:49

         It is. I don’t know how he would compare against the European field. He did go well in the Daytona 24 hours a few seasons ago, during his NASCAR years, so we can’t say he doesn’t have experience in very long endurance races, but Le Mans just seems more professional to me than the Daytona field. LMP1 is decided by nuances.

         Still, what an achievement it would be. No wonder Porsche is willing to let him at least do a test – they would also want to have the honour of manufacturing the car in which someone became just the second race car driver ever to clinch the Triple Crown…
5. 

   OmarRoncal - Go Seb!!! - @omarr-pepper (@)
   20th September 2015, 1:06

   Alonso’s face in that pole pic makes you think if he was somehow foreseeing his 2015 season.
6. 

   pxcmerc (@)
   20th September 2015, 1:32

   why would anyone think Mercedes are conspiring to throw away a race? Why would anyone think Mercedes would admit to such a thing, especially seeing where Lewis could have been with continuing his run of form?

   The issue clearly surrounds the Pirelli rubber and possibly ‘raising’ the tire pressures, which potentially suite teams like Ferrari.

   What I would like to point out, is that Lewis has never been able to get a good run of form past 5 wins in a row last year due to ‘reliability’ issues. I am not saying there is a conspiracy to stop Lewis, but it is pretty interesting how something always comes up and shuts Lewis down from leaving everyone behind, in the last year+.

   Hope it rains, the tires are too picky this weekend, and it’s the only way you are going to see a legit race this weekend.
   1. 

      Robbie (@robbie)
      20th September 2015, 3:52

      @pcxmerc Lol, you’re not saying there’s a conspiracy to stop Lewis, but it’s not going to be a legit race tomorrow, as suggested in your conspiracy theory.

      Perhaps ‘something always comes up, because that’s racing, and is why records can be hard to break. If he hasn’t been ‘leaving everyone behind’ enough for you in the past 1 1/2 years, including the last race, well, no wonder any little blip brings out the conspiracy in you.
7. 

   Yes (@come-on-kubica)
   20th September 2015, 3:09

   I’m glad Mercedes are struggling but my god I’m fed up at how overhyped Mercedes being off the pace is, Sky went into overload.
8. 

   Robbie (@robbie)
   20th September 2015, 3:31

   I won’t be surprised if at least one Merc makes the podium, and then I won’t be surprised if they’re pretty much back on form for the next race. I think this is a unique venue and a unique perfect storm that has seen Merc lag, but to think this is permanent is unimaginable. I thn
   1. 

      Robbie (@robbie)
      20th September 2015, 3:40

      Oops, hit that post comment bar by accident. Was saying…I think it should be expected that Ferrari particularly, and RBR somewhat, should at a minimum be getting enough on terms with things after over 1 1/2 years to at least reel Merc in a bit, and sometimes they do. But not yet consistently. SV and Ferrari have shown that they’re emerging but LH and now NR just got an upgrade that no doubt will come in handy, no matter their plight tomorrow and onward. They’ll continue to be a shoe in for some pretty big points yet.

      Anyway, good for F1, good for Merc…something different for everyone to digest, and it’s going to be fascinating tomorrow.
9. 

   NairobiF1
   20th September 2015, 4:26

   Looks a made up/cooked situation. Mercedes could have won it but know their dominance is inviting questions so they slow down their vehicles to lessen the scrutiny. Ferrari will welcome the win, but would be stupid to think they are even close to Mercedes.
   The real indicator that this is a false result is that Renault have put a car third.
   1. 

      John H (@john-h)
      20th September 2015, 8:25

      Slow them down to be 1.5 secs off the pace? Give me a break.
10. 

    @HoHum (@hohum)
    20th September 2015, 4:49

    PS. If you can’t see the difference between the comments section as 1st. introduced in ver. 10 and the new modified layout as announced by @keithcollantine above hit the refresh button, et voila.

    Apparently I have already said this, yes, but only in my mind, creepy.
    1. 

       BasCB (@bascb)
       20th September 2015, 7:16

       It’s there now @hohum
       Did indeed improve visuals, nice job Keith
       1. 

          Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
          20th September 2015, 10:16

          @hohum @bascb Thanks very much. Lots more to come – obviously putting the new version out just before back-to-back races was not ideal but for several reasons it had to be done.
11. 

    vero
    20th September 2015, 8:01

    “I just watched Sebastian’s on-board – I didn’t want to – but I shouted out in the engineering room ‘what the hell?!’ It seems like he is on a different planet in some corners.”
    That reminds me of this:
    “Sebastian misses four apexes on a single lap and still goes quickest. He goes off and he still goes quickest. And I think ‘Holy crap, I couldn’t do that lap even if I was on the limit’. His car is just that far ahead of everyone else’s. They made such a big step for some reason.” (Lewis Hamilton, 2012)

    Red Bull last sector is faster than Ferrari. It might be that they have better tyre deg, so they can do the undercut, use different strategy etc. There will be a safety car anyway…

    Also, it is very interesting that during a weekend people kept talking about Mercedes-Hamilton breaking records of Williams/Senna, it’s Vettel who did the Sennaesque thing by ending the run of poles from the dominant team, like Senna did in 1993 against Williams. And if he won the race, he would be 3rd on the list for all time race winners ahead of Senna.
    1. 

       Mr win or lose
       20th September 2015, 10:23

       I believe Ricciardo’s first two sectors were not so good, so he took a lot of risks in the last sector, which allowed him to recover some time. Vettel’s lap was more regular.The Red Bulls and Ferraris seem to be much less sensitive to tyre temperatures than the other teams.
12. 

    Stig Semper Fi (@stigsemperfi)
    20th September 2015, 8:28

    Sebastian Vettel: King of the Record Deniers.
    1. 

       nehir
       20th September 2015, 10:39

       That’s pretty accurate. He singlehandedly get in the way of Kvyat and Verstappen taking over some of his records in Silverstone and Hungary.
13. 

    ColdFly F1 ( @coldfly ) (@)
    20th September 2015, 8:51

    ‘Nigel Mansell CBE‘ (as per his Twitter name).
    To me it always feels weird when people add these titles when they refer to themselves.
    I guess I’ll have to wait until after being appointed to the Order myself to know what I would do ;-)
    1. 

       dragoll (@dragoll)
       20th September 2015, 10:14

       @coldfly having worked for a management training organisation, post nominals are exceptionally important to those who have them, and to those who aspire to have them. For you and I, we couldn’t care less. However, it is respectful to take note of those who have achieved them.
       1. 

          Patrickl (@patrickl)
          20th September 2015, 15:53

          Not quite sure why Mansell got one though. He’s like the British version of Jos Verstappen. Both shared a lot of the Maldonado gene. A nice moment here and there but besides that mostly needless crashes and stupid driving.
14. 

    nehir
    20th September 2015, 10:40

    It was really absurd, listening to Eddie Jordan criticizing Vettel for completing his second pole lap despite knowing he already got the pole and accusing him of “showboating”. Especially since I remember him praising Hamilton for his pole lap in Hungary.
    I also had to laugh when Jordan said to Ricciardo that he had generally better starts than Vettel :D
    1. 

       elio (@elio)
       20th September 2015, 12:04

       Jordan is a notorious and well known anti Vettel character.

       I remember he was genuinely happy when Vettel’s tyre exploded at Spa and was quick to put all the blame on the German for it.

       Unfortunately for him, Vettel is like Rosberg said: From ‘another planet’. Seb is, by far, the best driver on the grid and right up there with the best ever.

       If he had the Mercedes cars of the last two seasons in his hands, by now, he would be en route to pulverize all the records of the sport.
       1. 

          LH44
          20th September 2015, 12:15

          He was only in another planet this weekend not because he is the best driver far from it. Obviously you are a Vettel fan so of course you think he is the best by far but I’m sure many people will disagree with what you said.
       2. 

          Patrickl (@patrickl)
          20th September 2015, 15:50

          We can also turn that around. If Hamilton or Alonso had been with him at RBR, Vettel wouldn’t have a single title to his name.
    2. 

       Philip (@philipgb)
       20th September 2015, 12:24

       I honestly can’t stand Jordan. I’ve moved to finding a way to watch on Sky even when the BBC have it live.

       I think things like this are why I like Vettel, like in 2013 when he went for the fastest lap in Monaco and the team were quick to remind him there are no points for it and he just quips back “…But satisfaction”.

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