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F1

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F1 discussion

2013 budget cap / aero restrictions / V6 turbo delay?

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This topic contains 5 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of matthew matthew 11 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #131423
    Avatar of Eggry
    Eggry
    Participant

    I’ve heard Auto Motor und Sport reportedly saying ten out of 12 teams want budget cap in 2013. Two teams not agreeing are Red Bull and Toro Rosso.

    I haven’t heard anywhere else so I guess this is just another AM&S rumor but how do you think?

    #201996
    Avatar of Keith Collantine
    Keith Collantine
    Keymaster

    It’s an article by Michael Schmidt who’s pretty well-respected in covering the political side of F1:

    http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/streit-um-f1-kosten-teams-wollen-aufschub-der-turbo-motoren-4979349.html

    Here’s an automatic translation – as usual, be very careful with these. If anyone who has better German than me can offer a proper translation, please do:

    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.auto-motor-und-sport.de%2Fformel-1%2Fstreit-um-f1-kosten-teams-wollen-aufschub-der-turbo-motoren-4979349.html

    Here’s what the BBC’s Andrew Benson makes of it:

    In a nutshell, Ten of 12 teams want FIA to legislate cost control. Nine want budget cap. FIA may not be in 2013 Concorde Agreement in which case F1 may have rules written by Briatore that dramatically limit aerodynamics, Ferrari fans. Small teams want V6 turbos delayed. All part of the inevitable to and fro of negotiations, of course.

    http://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/statuses/203434892661506048

    Worth pointing out that would be a further delay in the introduction of smaller-capacity turbos, which were originally planned for 2013 then postponed to 2014.

    #201997
    Avatar of BasCB
    BasCB
    Participant

    Its a very interesting article, which seems to draw on sources mainly at Mercedes and at Sauber. I will try and have a go at a better translation, alhough the google tranlate is not too bad from what I saw.

    In between the lines its clear these 10 teams are all teams save the 2 red Bulls (as was reported earlier), and Ferrari is supportive of cost control, but does not want a budget cap that is strictly policed.

    As for the engines, it seems a lot about cost control rather than other objectives, which fit in nicely with ongoing talks with the engine manufacturers about how much the teams will pay.

    What I find the most interesting notion is, that Bernie seems now to be playing hardball with Todt over how much the FIA will get (would any teams seriously sign up for a GP1 breakaway-series without the FIA in it?)
    From what this series is described to contain, its not likely Red Bull would like it, but then again, the whole deal seams to boil down to them either swallowing severe restrictions to aerodynamics (with Bernie) or a budget cap and FIA cost control with F1.

    Is it possible that this tug of war between BE and JT is another reason for why that early Singapore float? Hm, I must say that to me it sounds rather like the repeating talks of a breakaway series each time the money is discussed in F1.

    I will have a go at translating the article and send it to you @keithcollantine

    #201998
    Avatar of BasCB
    BasCB
    Participant

    Ok, its a bit long but I guess its ok for the forum. So here goes my translation of that article from German:

    Its rumbling behind the scenes in Formula 1 Not only because of the new Concorde Agreement and the planned IPO. Ten teams want the FIA ​​controlling costs. Nine of them are for a budget cap. Most of them also require that the new turbo engines are not introduced in 2014 but later.
    Formula 1 is at a crossroads. Bernie Ecclestone and CVC boss Donald McKenzie want to make it fit for the period until 2012 with the new Concorde Agreement and the planned initial public offering. Either with or without Mercedes, that will be decided soon. With or without the FIA, that matter will take time.
    The FIA ​does not have to be part of the deal, but it can. FIA President Jean Todt will demand a higher appanage from the rights holders, but in that matter Ecclestone is playing deaf. If the FIA would not sign the Concorde Agreement, it would then have a free reign with the rules. Something neither Ecclestone nor the teams want.
    Bernie Ecclestone has always been of the opinion that the FIA is not needed to make up the rules. It should check them at maximum. On that matter though he will meet resistance from both FIA and some of the big teams, who are not interested in a bread-away (pirate) series. Mercedes belongs to this group, which explains part of the difference of opinion between Ecclestone and Mercedes.
    Briatore is working on a new Formula 1 rules
    As auto motor und sport exclusively reveals in its latest issue (issue 12/2012), it is rumoured that Flavio Briatore is working on a set of GP1 regulations. That could soon be turned into a draft for Formula 1, in case there is no agreement with the FIA. Briatore is reported to have found the way to bring the costs down.
    The former Renault team boss has already got his first fan: Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo. With that knowledge, one can imagine imagine, what these regulations will look like. As many common parts, especially in the field of aerodynamics, which has been a thorn in Montezemolo’s side for a long time because of the deficiencies in their own team. Will Red Bull play along with that?
    The teams are currently still planning with the FIA. Ten have approached President Jean Todt with the request, to include the cost reduction plan (Resource Restriction Agreement) the Sporting Rules. That would mean: The FIA checks the limits for personnel, tools, and testing and can also punish the teams for infringements. Red Bull and Toro Rosso reject this.
    Savings plan despite the opposition from Red Bull?
    Although for the FIA a ​​three-quarters majority before 13 July is sufficient to anchor the concerns of the team for 2013 into the Sporting Regulations, Jean Todt is waiting. He wants all teams to agree. He will have to wait long for that to happen indeed. “We should do it, regardless of whether Red Bull are participating or not,” says one of the team principals. “That would push them with their backs to the wall, so they will have the choice, of either to join in or quit.”
    In a first step the weekly wind tunnel hours would be lowered from 60 to 40 from 2013 onward. Maximum computer capacity remains at 40 teraflops. At the race track there will be allowed 55 people per team instead of 47, but with a different way of counting them. The drivers and their physiotherapists and people supplied by IT suppliers would then be part of the workforce.
    Nine teams request a budget cap
    Nine of the ten supporters of the FIA ​​as a cost controller go one step further. They call for the introduction of an old Max Mosley idea. “We are in favour of a budget cap,” says Sauber managing director Monisha Kaltenborn. “It is easier to control and more just, because then everyone can build on their own strengths while keeping within the budget allowed.”
    Ferrari could test at Fiorano again regularly, Sauber could fully utilize its super-windtunnel , and Red Bull’s drivers could be driving in the simulator day and night. The nine teams in favour of a budget cap plead for a starting budget of 170 million €. This should then be lowered down to 120, maybe even 100 million per year step by step.
    Only Ferrari is not thrilled by this. Budget cap yes, but controls based on gentleman’s agreement. Maranello does not want to divulge any figures to the FIA. The Gestione sportiva is part of the car company. Apparently, the disclosure of these numbers is too sensitive for Ferrari. “That would be quite easy to solve,” says a team principal. “The Ferrari racing department could legally be split from the group and turned into a subsidiary. Mercedes does this with its Formula 1 team as well.”
    V6 turbo only after 2014?
    The small team also want to postpone the introduction of six-cylinder turbos. The engine change is planned for 2014. But already it transpires from from Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault that development of the turbo V6 with direct injection and integrated hybrid drive will be more expensive than expected. Since no upper limit for the engine lease from 2014 is set yet, the teams fear that they will have to bring up the additional costs.
    Right now they pay eight million euros for 16 engines and a few test engines. For each additional test run for special exhaust developments they pay extra. For KERS lease the prices vary between two and five million euros. Teams like Sauber, Force India, Caterham, Williams, Marussia and HRT are already at the limit. They cannot and won’t accept higher engine costs. The current V8 engines would continue to cost only eight million a year.
    Additional to that there are technical problems. The new engines will be 25 kilograms heavier than planned. That would make the cars far to slow. The regulations were build up around a target lap time. Engine performance, fuel consumption, weight and output follow a formula, which sets a lap time as the target. These can’t be more than five seconds slower than the current values. If the parameter weight is now this far out of order, the equation does no longer add up.
    Because of the planned consumption limit of 130 liters of petrol for a race distance, there are no correction factors. This is bad news for the engine manufacturers. Should the teams prevail here, they have wasted a lot of money with the pre-development.

    #201999
    Avatar of Roald
    Roald
    Participant

    Looks very interesting to say the least, especially breaking away from FIA. I wonder if that’s a good or bad thing, there’s something to be said both for and against this matter. VERY interested in what Briatore is working on though!

    #202000
    Avatar of matthew
    matthew
    Participant

    does this mean that 2014 turbo engines may not be set to come around, as i feel mercades at leaast are edging there bets on the turbo enigne and the 2014 season to be there come back season.

    if cars are nearing completion for next years season then were does that leave manufactures and teams? im really up for the return of turbos. itll make real drivers shine rather then being sat in a perfectly aerodynamic car that can do incredible things, which i refer to adrian newey designs being the rb6 and rb7. which seems to be more challenged this year but i really hope turbos and the engine change does bring a new spark to f1

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