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F1 discussion

Alonso doesn't deserve it

This topic contains 27 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of TommyB TommyB 4 years ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 28 total)
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  • #128268
    Profile photo of VettelS
    VettelS
    Member

    I just want to put this out there, and see what everybody else thinks about it.

    If Alonso wins this Championship (and let’s face it, there’s a good chance), the wrong man would have won it. Why? He’s benefited countless times when other cars have had reliability issues (most of them Red Bull, specifically Vettel)- Bahain and Korea are prime examples. Also, if he wins by 7 points or less, and if he does win, it will probably be by this margin, there’ll be quite a bit of criticism to say the least.

    I’m not sure who should win: Vettel, Webber or Hamilton. But what I’m saying is that any of these three are more deserving of the Championship than Alonso. I’m not saying he hasn’t performed well, I’m just saying that he hasn’t driven as well as other drivers and if it weren’t for Red Bull’s unreliability, he’d be nowhere (and for that matter, McLaren would be a lot further behind too).

    #148843
    Profile photo of GeeMac
    GeeMac
    Participant

    I’m going to say the same thing I said last year when people said Button didn’t deserve the WDC. He has won the most races (to date) and has collected points when he didn’t have the pace to win. Yes he got the benefit of team orders in Germany, but so did Raikkonen in 2007 and Massa in 2008, and countless others before him. This argument that “you benefitted from others misfortunes” doesn’t wash with me, because to finish first, first you have to finish.

    I can’t stand Alonso, I really can’t. He is an arrogant little so and so and his celebrations and wave to the crowd annoy me almost as much as the Vettel finger and the Schumacher leap, but I can’t deny his skill and he has driven magnificently on many occassions, not only this year, so if he wins, he’ll deserve it… end of.

    #148844
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    Ok then, lets compare the four drivers’ luck and mistakes in 2010. I hope this is not too biased!

    We’ll start with Hamilton.

    Unlucky not to finish at Spain, but relatively average at Monaco. Lucky at Turkey, and benefitted from other’s misfortune (Vettel, Alonso, Kubica) at Silverstone. Poor luck at Hungary but despite a super drive at Spa, benefitted from Webber’s start. Italy and Singapore 2 massive mistakes. Drove well at Suzuka and at Korea today.

    Now Vettel.

    Unlucky in Bahrain and Australia, but average in China and very lucky at Spain. Awful mistake at Turkey and not great at Canada. superb in Europe but got preferential treatment from RBR at Silverstone. Dreadful start at Germany, awful mistake at Hungary, good at Italy, stupid at Spa, good at Singapore, Japan and unlucky today.

    Alonso.

    Lucky at Bahrain but the best starter, average but unlucky at Australia. Good and unlucky at Malaysia, mistake at China, lucky but strong at Spain, sensational at Monaco (race), poor at Turkey, good at Canada, very unlucky at Valencia and Silverstone. Good at Germany and Hungary, mistake at Spa, super at Italy, Singapore, Japan and Korea.

    And finally Webber.

    Not good at either of the first two, poor statrt at Malaysia despite a great pole, poor at China, and then unstoppable at Spain and Monaco, unlucky at Turkey, Canada, Europe, superb at britain, good at Germany, Hungary, Spa (although a bit lucky), unlucky at Italy with Hulkenberg, good but lucky at Singapore and then fine at Japan but a mistake today.

    Any of the 4 deserve it, but for me Webber or Alonso should get it.

    #148845
    Profile photo of David-A
    David-A
    Participant

    He’s benefited countless times when other cars have had reliability issues (most of them Red Bull, specifically Vettel)- Bahain and Korea are prime examples.

    Hardly countless, that’s two out of only three occasions you’ve already mentioned to be honest.

    Also, if he wins by 7 points or less, and if he does win, it will probably be by this margin, there’ll be quite a bit of criticism to say the least.

    There probably will be criticism, however he curently leads by 11. Who’s to say he won’t maintain or extend that gap?

    I’m not sure who should win: Vettel, Webber or Hamilton.

    Vettel, aside from his mechanical problems at Bahrain, Australia and Korea, has cost himself through numerous mistakes. Like turning into Webber at Istanbul. Like falling asleep under a safety car in Hungary. Like swerving into Jenson Button at Spa. Like being indecisive about whether to pass Sutil in Shanghai (getting mugged by Hamilton in the process). Or everyone ahead of him in Montreal.

    Webber has driven well to win four races. But he has been fortunate not to have any mechanical failures like Vettel has. His two DNFs came from pure driver error; the shocker at Valencia and the 18 point prize giveaway today. In a lot of the other races he mostly looked fast because he either qualified poorly or lost a heap of positions at the start, which he had to make up again.

    With Hamilton, I feel it’s more complicated over whether he deserves this as much as Alonso. He’s had bad luck (e.g. Spain, Hungary), but has made some errors (e.g. Monza, Singapore).

    I’m just saying that he hasn’t driven as well as other drivers and if it weren’t for Red Bull’s unreliability, he’d be nowhere (and for that matter, McLaren would be a lot further behind too).

    The title is decided by who has the best driver/car combo. Vettel and Webber have what is supposed to be by far the best car, but haven’t even made the most of it when it hasn’t failed. Throw in the reliability issues, and they’re on course not to win the title. Despite RBR’s 14 poles, the cold hard facts are that Alonso leads, and has still won the most races. Hamilton is ahead of one of the Bulls and has won as many as Vettel. I think Hamilton and Alonso and Hamilton have done a much better job with their machinery.

    #148846
    Profile photo of Ned Flanders
    Ned Flanders
    Participant

    I don’t like Alonso one little bit, and I agree if he takes the title it will definitely be tainted somewhat by Hockenheimgate. But he’s definitely been the stand out driver of the second half of this championship, and if he wins the title I will be as impressed as I am gutted

    #148847
    Profile photo of Fer no.65
    Fer no.65
    Participant

    he deserves it. He’s an incredibly fast driver, the best on the grid for me, and he’s won 3 of the last 4 races. Remember he was 47 points behind and now he’s 11 ahead.

    Hockenheim doesn’t count for me. It’s been done before and it’ll be done again for sure.

    #148848
    Profile photo of VettelS
    VettelS
    Member

    This argument that “you benefitted from others misfortunes” doesn’t wash with me, because to finish first, first you have to finish.

    Yes, that’s true. But when your car breaks down and it’s not your fault, you can’t hold that against the driver. Alonso’s car has been reliable compared to Red Bull’s (and McLaren’s for that matter)- that’s testament to the guys at Ferrari who designed it, but not to Alonso himself.

    Hardly countless, that’s two out of only three occasions you’ve already mentioned to be honest.

    There have been several occasions where Vettel has had car problems during practice and qualifying sessions, neither of which would have done him any good. There have also been several problems during races, which although were temporary and didn’t cause him a DNF, have also cost him positions. There have also been poor strategy decisions on the pit wall, again not costing whole races, but positions here and there. It all adds up.

    There probably will be criticism, however he curently leads by 11. Who’s to say he won’t maintain or extend that gap?

    Whoever wins the Championship, I’d put money on the gap being 7 points or less. Obviously if Webber wins, it won’t matter, but if Alonso wins by, say, 5 points, it’ll be an utter scandal, and quite rightly as well.

    Vettel, aside from his mechanical problems at Bahrain, Australia and Korea, has cost himself through numerous mistakes.

    Of course he has, but the points he’s has lost to unreliability out-weight those that he’s lost to driver error. And for what it’s worth, and I know this isn’t strictly relevant, I think he’s done remarkably well given his young age and inexperience. Alonso has made plenty of mistakes this season, and he’s a double World Champion.

    #148849
    Profile photo of Ads21
    Ads21
    Participant

    It’s a team sport, the WDC will be won by Alonso/Ferrari or Vettel/Red Bull etc If the car breaks down then the driver/team combination does not deserve the title just like if the team builds a car which isn’t fast enought the driver won’t win the title. If a driver loses out to his team mate because of unreliability then thats unlucky but the driver/team combination with the most points at the end of the year will be a worthy champion.

    #148850
    Profile photo of VettelS
    VettelS
    Member

    It’s a team sport, the WDC will be won by Alonso/Ferrari or Vettel/Red Bull etc If the car breaks down then the driver/team combination does not deserve the title just like if the team builds a car which isn’t fast enought the driver won’t win the title. If a driver loses out to his team mate because of unreliability then thats unlucky but the driver/team combination with the most points at the end of the year will be a worthy champion.

    It is a team sport, but the nature of it means that any single problem can usually be attributed to a specific group of people, or a single person. If the car breaks down it’s not the driver’s fault- how can you possibly say that the driver doesn’t deserve it? The team has let the driver.

    Similarly, if the driver makes a mistake and spins into a tyre wall, that’s not the guys on the pit walls’ fault. The driver has let the team down.

    #148851
    Profile photo of Ads21
    Ads21
    Participant

    I know what you mean but you could make the argument that Robert Kubica deserves the title but its just that his team have let him down by not giving him a fast enough car. Vettel may deserve the title but Red Bull won’t if reliability costs them and thats the way the sport has always been.

    #148852
    Profile photo of Fer no.65
    Fer no.65
    Participant

    they all deserve tht title. I really wonder why people say otherwise.

    They’ve all made a big load of mistakes, in their own way. Be it crashing into your team mate (Vettel), spinning or crashing into someone else (Webber), crashing at FP3 when everything looked your way (Alonso), pushing too hard too early (Hamilton), etc.

    And appart from the mistakes you have Hockenheim. It’s been done, it’ll be done and it’s part of F1 that things happen. Since the 50’s.

    Alonso won 5 races, scored 9 podiums and 2 poles, on a car that was initially not as fast as the Mclarens and Red Bulls. He’s been gaining positions due to others mistakes or own talent and speed. So why wouldn’t he deserve the champ?

    he’s leading -> he deserves it.

    #148853
    Profile photo of VettelS
    VettelS
    Member

    I know what you mean but you could make the argument that Robert Kubica deserves the title but its just that his team have let him down by not giving him a fast enough car. Vettel may deserve the title but Red Bull won’t if reliability costs them and thats the way the sport has always been.

    Absolutely. If Kubica was driving for Red Bull or Ferrari this season, I have no doubt he’d be challenging for the Championship. As it stand however, Red Bull have given their drivers the fastest car on the grid, and in terms of the Constructors’ Championship, it’s paid off (or at least it probably will in a few weeks time).

    On a slightly different note…

    But the Ferrari isn’t too far off the Red Bulls’ pace, and for both drivers still to be in with a shot at the WDC, despite more than their fair share of break downs, goes to show what sort of drivers they are.

    If you ask me, Vettel is a better driver than Webber. He’s had ten times the amount of reliability issues as Webber, made numerous mistakes that have cost his positions and whole races, yet he has just 14 points less.

    #148854
    Profile photo of sbl on tour
    sbl on tour
    Participant

    course he does

    sblot

    #148855
    Profile photo of Slr
    Slr
    Participant

    This just seems like a “I hate Fernando Alonso” forum. The only good reason here I see for Alonso not deserving the championship, is if he wins it by less than 7 points. But even then, I think people will just accept that Alonso is the champion, rather than starting a riot. Normally, everyone benefits from the misfortune of other drivers. And Alonso has driven as well as his rivals, if not better. He definately been the best driver over the past few races.

    #148856
    Profile photo of VettelS
    VettelS
    Member

    This just seems like a “I hate Fernando Alonso” forum. The only good reason here I see for Alonso not deserving the championship, is if he wins it by less than 7 points. But even then, I think people will just accept that Alonso is the champion, rather than starting a riot.

    I don’t hate Alonso. I mean I think he’s a bit of a kn*b, but you can’t take away from that he’s a bloody good drivers. As for winning by less than 7 points- if he does win, then it probably will be by this margin. It’s not like we can do anything about it either- I just think people will remember it.

    Normally, everyone benefits from the misfortune of other drivers. And Alonso has driven as well as his rivals, if not better. He definately been the best driver over the past few races.

    Yes, drivers do benefit from others’ misfortune, but Alonso has done so more than anyone this season. But I disagree with saying that he’s driven better than anyone else at the last few races. And even if that is true, he certainly hasn’t been the best driver prior to that.

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