Alonso, Hamilton & Vettel – The most complete… (70 posts)

Topic tags: F1 Formula1 Motorsport F1Fanatic Group Forum Drivers Fe, Lewis Hamilton & Sebastian Vettel - The most comple
  • Profile picture of Kingshark Kingshark said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Interesting for people who think Hamilton is such a great overtaker. One of the main reasons to why I do think Lewis’ wheel-on-wheel racing ability is a tad overestimated by F1 fans is because he’s been driving cars with great top speed his whole career long, while Vettel’s always had a car that’s been slower in a straight line. Monza 2011 was a perfect showing of how Vettel banzai-d passed Alonso on the first move attempt, while it took Lewis 25 laps to get passed Michael. Now in Monza I’d say Mclaren were as quick as Red Bull and Ferrari were faster than Mercedes. What does that tell you?

    I’d rate Vettel’s passing show at Spa this year ahead of any of Lewis’s drivers in his F1 career.

  • Profile picture of moussa moussa said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    what about that dumb move vettel did on button year 2010 in spa? That’s entertaining!

  • Profile picture of Kingshark Kingshark said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    what about that dumb move vettel did on button year 2010 in spa? That’s entertaining!

    Dumb in what way? It wasn’t any dumber that Hamilton’s move on Massa one week later in Monza.

    The problem is that Vettel rarely gets a chance to be entertaining because he always qualifies so high. That is why I disliked him last year, but slowly came back to my senses. However, when he does have a poor qualifying he can pull off some stellar moves during the race, such as we saw in Australia, Spain and Belgium. His overtaking skills are far better than most people make them out to be.

  • Profile picture of moussa moussa said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    If u really know much about wheel to wheel racing or racing in general then u should know that the incidents that happened between Lewis and Felipe were 50/50 or Felipe’s. Whenever massa sences an overtake on him he turns in earlier like what happened in Monaco and New Delhi. We all know that Lewis can race wheel to wheel and his past races has proved it. Like Monza in 2008 on the wet, or USA 2007, or china last year, I’ve seen Hamilton overtake in corners where no one dare to, but I havnt seen anything that spectacular about vettels moves, even webber had better overtakes.

    What has vettel proven? And I havnt seen anything that entertaining about him. Yes he’s the shinning star, won 2 easy championships, lol if u dont want to mention this year, and yes he’s good, but what else? Vettel has allot to prove and the only way he can prove is if he drives a slower car. And until now only Alonso has proven it. Well see what happens to Lewis next year. Ull see 4 urself

  • Profile picture of mnmracer mnmracer said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @moss-611
    You should do something about your memory lapses. You seem to remember Hamilton in 2007-2008, and then go on to say Vettel hasn’t driven a slower car… If you tell me where you live, I’ll be happy to help you find a good doctor.

  • Profile picture of Bob Bob said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @moss-611 -

    - Perhaps you’ve forgotten Vettel’s early career. He has driven slower cars before, and impressed even then. He won his first pole position and first win in a 2008 Toro Rosso, which was probably the 5th fastest car that year.

    - Not sure what your benchmark for “spectacular overtaking” is, but I recommend you review this year’s Belgian GP, where Vettel edged his way past numerous drivers on the approach to the Bus Stop chicane. Pure slipstreaming and loads of courage in a car with a straight line speed deficit.

    - As for the Hamilton/Massa clashes, if it really was “50/50 or Massa’s fault”, why was Hamilton deemed to be responsible on two occasions? He received drive through penalties at Monaco and Singapore for taking Massa out.

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @mnmracer Whoa easy now… You can criticise a guy’s memory (to an extent) and do what you feel is setting the facts straight, but no need to go so personal and attacking a guy and saying he has to see a doctor.

    An argument is an argument, but going so personal is not cool.

  • Profile picture of mnmracer mnmracer said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @raymondu999
    Fair enough.
    I just get tired of people’s trollish behavior of purposely twisting facts into such a fenderbender. Opinions is one thing, simply going out of your way to lie is disgusting.

  • Profile picture of gameprotage gameprotage said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @bobthevulcan Hamilton was given a drive through for Scuffing Massa’s sidepod in Monaco purely because one had aleady been given to diresta for a similar incident a few laps earlier. If you watch the actual incident here:

    You’ll see that Massa turns in way earlier than what would be the normal line would and actually makes contact with Webber’s rear wing knocking a piece off. Hamilton already committed to the move has nowhere else to go, and what would have been a tight angle for an overtake, becomes virtually impossible.

    Singapore was a total brainfade by Hamilton although it’s useful to note that Massa was asked to destroy Hamilton’s race and was obviously braking much earlier in an attempt to do this which played a significant part in Hamilton misjudging the move.

    Also can we stop with this Vettel straightline speed deficit, first of all both in Spa and Monza Red Bull were some of the fastest through the speed traps. Secondly when they do have low topspeed it’s more or less because of the way they gear the car which they choose to run and which actually compensates for it because it allows them to accelerate and reach top speed much faster especially on heavy fuel, also with the advent of DRS which helps the cars close up, lack of top speed isn’t the excuse it was.

    It’s also useful to note with the customer car rules the Torro Rosso (once given all of the same upgrades half of the way through the season) was essentially a Red Bull Chassis with a Ferrari engine (the same chassis Webber qualified second at Silverstone with), actually making it better car than the Red Bull works team and probably one of the best cars behind Ferrari/McLaren.

  • Profile picture of mnmracer mnmracer said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @kvothe
    You might want to look back at, off the top of my head, China, Germany and Hungary for examples of what you think is a non-existent speed deficit of the Red Bulls. In all three races, cars without DRS were pulling away from DRS-activated Red Bulls.

    Based on what was the Toro Rosso the 3rd best car?
    Because of Newey, who hadn’t won a championship in 8 years and whose Red Bull cars were still slower than the other teams with the same engine?
    Because of the Ferrari engines, which left both Spyker and Force India dead-last in the championship?

  • Profile picture of Dizzy-A Dizzy-A said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @kvothe – At Spa, Red Bull did have a high top speed in the speed traps, but not at Monza 2011 or Monza 2012 , where both Red Bulls were near the bottom (and most teams had a higher top speed at Monza than at Spa).

    What is often forgotten about 2008 is that the Red Bull Racing, with their RB4, finished 7th in the championship. The likes of BMW Sauber, Renault and Toyota (in addition to Ferrari and Mclaren) were usually faster than the RBR/STR. That Toro Rosso was still only around 6th fastest except for the first few races of the season, and Monza.

  • Profile picture of gameprotage gameprotage said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @mnmracer read what I wrote: At the power tracks Monza, Spa and even Canada they were some of the fastest through the speed traps, however I also put that when they weren’t it was usually because of choice. For example a decision to run lower gear ratios and set up for a race, or a preference for more downforce and speed through the corners, than on the straights. There have been quite a few races where McLaren have actually been some of the lowest through the speed traps, but as I said with DRS it’s now largely inconsequential, when it comes to overtaking. P.S. Mark Webber had the highest number of overtakes of any driver in China, and there was barely any overtakes in Hungary, topspeed or not.

    Also in regards to Torro Rosso, I said one of the fastest, behind Ferrari and McLaren. Personally I would have put them just behind Renault in in terms of improving relative to the opposition throughout the season, and your examples of Spyker and Force India are ridiculous neither had a chassis that had qualified second at Silverstone…..

  • Profile picture of Dizzy-A Dizzy-A said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Back to the OP:

    -Qualifying speed/Speed over 1 lap:
    1. Vettel
    2. Hamilton
    3. Alonso

    -Overtaking:
    1. Hamilton
    2. Alonso
    3. Vettel

    -Consistency:
    1. Alonso
    2. Vettel
    3. Hamilton

    -Technicality:
    1. Alonso
    2. Vettel
    3. Hamilton

    -Car-setup:
    1. Vettel
    2. Alonso
    3. Hamilton

    -Race starts:
    1. Alonso
    2. Vettel
    3. Hamilton

    -Speed in wet/mixed conditions :
    1. Hamilton
    2. Vettel
    3. Alonso

    -Decision-making:
    1. Alonso
    2. Vettel
    3. Hamilton

    -Communication with team-personnel, particularly race engineers & pit-crew:
    1. Vettel
    2. Alonso
    3. Hamilton

    -Personality (biased):
    1. Vettel
    2. Alonso
    3. Hamilton

  • Profile picture of gameprotage gameprotage said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @david-a fair enough although the poster i was responding to mentioned Spa. The main point is that it was through choice that the car has a low topspeed, and this benefits them in other ways including overtaking on heavy fuel, andis quite inconcequential in an era with DRS.

    It’s also forgotten just how many failures (particularly Mark Webber), mistakes or crashes the Red Bull drivers had, the points imo don’t accurately reflect the performance of the car. You’ve only got to think of Mark Webber’s second position at Silverstone before he lost places at the start and dropped it or David Coulthard’s storming drive through Bahrain before his failure.

  • Profile picture of mnmracer mnmracer said 7 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @kvothe
    As for the speed-trap, two things:
    1. In Canada both Red Bulls were dead-last, >6kph behind Hamilton. In Belgium they were at the top indeed, and you saw the result of a overtaking-capable car in the race. In Italy, they only just topped out the HRT’s, more than 7kph slower than Hamilton.
    2. Be it by choice or not, it doesn’t make overtaking any more possible. You can argue that they shouldn’t complain, but you can’t fault the drivers for not overtaking when their car doesn’t allow them. You can call it inconsequential because of DRS, but when everyone on the tv can see the front car pull away from the Red Bull, DRS or not, it’s not that inconsequential.

    As for Torro Rosso, you have still not presented an actual reason why the TR was only slower than McLaren/Ferrari that year. If you think one-offs are something to go by, you must also believe that Williams has one of the best cars this year because it had a one-off win in Spain?

    Your argument was that it was 1) a newey-chassis, with 2) a Ferrari engine. Neither of them has shown to be any reason for it to be a good car.

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