F1 Fanatic

@kvothe the speedtrap at Spa is rubbish. It has no connection to straightline speed – it’s on the exit of Raidillon. If you followed the onboards you’d see that the Red Bulls just stopped accelerating from there, and other cars continued to accelerate.

It is NOT inconsequential because of DRS, because remember that these speedtrap figures are speedtrap figures with DRS open, and not with DRS closed. Red Bull however have indeed been guilty of always optimising their top speed in DRS-closed trim, rather than in DRS-open trim.

What you might want to consider is the car’s aero map. The Red Bull does generally run more downforce – but that’s because it has efficient downforce. The Red Bull is at its quickest when set up for that higher downforce level, as opposed to other cars, which are quicker at the lower downforce levels.

Here’s a very simple algebraic example, using arbitrary variables (I’m an engineer. Bite me :P)

Let’s say for every X units of drag that McLaren put on, they gain Y units of downforce.

Now we go to the more downforce-efficient Red Bull, which produces more downforce per drag penalty.

So let’s say we take the arbitrary numbers of every X units of drag generating 2Y of downforce (they get twice the downforce for the same drag penalty – note that the real life figure would be nowhere near two times. This is just to illustrate a point).

So in reverse, for every X units of drag McLaren removes, they lose Y downforce. For every X units of drag Red Bull removes, they lose 2Y downforce – and in the end they lose more in the corners than they gain on the straights (relative to the other cars).

It’s not that simple. Yes ultimately and fundamentally it’s a matter of choice, but would you choose rubbish top speed qualifying P6 at Monza, or decent top speed and qualifying P12? Again, arbitrary numbers, but that’s the general idea.

I hope I’m not blabbering…

@moss-611 I think you have a couple of your facts mixed up there.

Vettel’s BMW race debut in 2007 he finished in the points. Heidfeld was the one to not finish the race.

Monza – don’t forget that the data showed his teammate was on a wet setup. Vettel’s side of the garage thought the race would be dry and put on a dry setup, as the speedtrap data shows.

@mnmracer I don’t understand this:

The only correct statement you made was that this year, he indeed suffered the most bad luck

“He” is… who, in this statement?

As for the speed-trap, two things:
1. In Canada both Red Bulls were dead-last, >6kph behind Hamilton. In Belgium they were at the top indeed, and you saw the result of a overtaking-capable car in the race. In Italy, they only just topped out the HRT’s, more than 7kph slower than Hamilton.
2. Be it by choice or not, it doesn’t make overtaking any more possible. You can argue that they shouldn’t complain, but you can’t fault the drivers for not overtaking when their car doesn’t allow them. You can call it inconsequential because of DRS, but when everyone on the tv can see the front car pull away from the Red Bull, DRS or not, it’s not that inconsequential.

As for Torro Rosso, you have still not presented an actual reason why the TR was only slower than McLaren/Ferrari that year. If you think one-offs are something to go by, you must also believe that Williams has one of the best cars this year because it had a one-off win in Spain?

Your argument was that it was 1) a newey-chassis, with 2) a Ferrari engine. Neither of them has shown to be any reason for it to be a good car.

@mnmracer: Well there you go, I don’t fault the drivers, I’m just expressing frustration about how often its used, often when not true (as in the case of the original poster I responded too who tried to use it to exaggerate what was already a great drive by Vettel in Spa, by using it) and often forgetting that it’s a decision taken by Red Bull.

I call it inconsequential because at the moment it is. Apart from a couple of examples such as Hulkenberg in front of Webber In Germany and Spain, there have been very few cases of the Red Bull really struggling to overtake anyone except cars usually at the front running at a similar pace. As I mentioned Webber (courtesy of the clip the apex) had the most on track overtakes in China, a track where you thought the Red Bull were geared low.

In regards to Torro Rosso, please read what I’m writing. I’ve in no way either explicitly or implicitly stated that the Torro Rosso was the third best car after McLaren or Ferrari, that would be ludicrous. i’m stating that after the upgrades mid season it became one of the better midfield cars (better than the Red Bull works team) and wasn’t the hrt some (not you) seem to think it was.

Alright I was wrong vettel didn’t retire that race, it was heidfeld. I really wasn’t paying attention to BMW that day.

first of all I never said that Hamilton is better then vettel in any way, all I said was he’s the most entertaining to watch and that’s my opinion wether u guys like it or not. U can hate on Hamilton I really don’t give a damn its not like ur gonna change my mind or I’m gonna change ur minds. I might be right or wrong all I know is that I have faith in hamiltons abilities and he never had the chance to prove it from the bad luck he had this year. Last year yes it was a different case and honestly I wasn’t happy with his performance, the only mistake he did this year was his incident with Maldonado, even vettel did mistakes this year for example (in hockenheim with button) it doesn’t mean that they should be perfect bcuz they can’t be.

Vettel is fast indeed, I still can’t call him the most complete bcuz I havnt seen another side of him, he dominated last year with the best car, all he had to do is good quali lap and finish the race in clean air. If vettel can rest his hand on a hot lap that means his car is really capable.

IMO Alonso is the most complete with all the experience he is in best shape. End of story.

Ahhhhhh fuuuuh u got me :-D

I as in (only me) havnt seen anything (that) special from vettel (but win races with the fastest car). Lying or not lying. That’s my f*ckin problem! So f*cking beat it man! Geeeeez

So you think it is within social norms to go around willingly lie to people, and then just say “it’s my problem”? And you can not understand why people do not appreciate being lied to?

Or do you not understand that if you confess that you have no idea what you’re talking about (judging someone on something you haven’t seen), you should keep yourself to opinions and do not make statements that people might be tricked into being worth anything.

Geeeeez