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BBC’s Top 20 F1 drivers ever (list) (365 posts)

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Kingshark said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

I still don’t understand why Moss is rated so highly; despite countless opportunities he never achieved the big one, a world championship. Why drivers like Piquet, Lauda, and Brabham; who have won three championships are always below him on every GOAT list makes zero sense to me.

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matt90 said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

Because he was incredibly unfortunate not to win one. In the same way that Clark is normally rated above most 3 times champions. And people often can’t help but factor in his racing in other categories- he was very possibly the best all-round track/road racing driver ever.

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Kingshark said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

Then you can just as easily put Kimi Raikkonen and Nigel Mansell in the top 10 because;

1.) Unlike Moss at least they won a championship
2.) They too were very unfortunate to not be a 3 time champion or so.

Why is Moss rated so much higher than them? Moss had four straight opportunities to win a championship, from 1958-1961, he had a very capable car in all these seasons yet he couldn’t win once.

Moss was also totally overshadowed by Fangio when they were teammates at Mercedes in 1955. Fangio dominated him and won the championship with nearly twice as many points as he had.

Of course, this list is called BBC’s top 20 F1 drivers, it is based on what they’ve accomplished in Formula One; otherwise you could’ve just as easily put Mario Andretti or even Alex Zanardi in your top 20 drivers list. Like it or not, what Moss did outside of F1 should be a non-factor here.

Stirling Moss is very overrated IMO. He deserves to be in the top 20, but certainly not ahead of drivers like Piquet, Brabham, Lauda, Ascari or even Alonso.

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matt90 said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

1955 was Moss’s first full season, and he was beaten by one of the top drivers of all time. Also, he effectively had 3 retirements to Fangio’s 1, which explains why the gap was so large.

1958 and 1959, we came 1st or second in every race he finished- he couldn’t have done much more than that. 1960 he missed 3 races due to a bad accident before the race in Spa, and 1961 he had poor reliability again. Those are the reasons, or at least large contributors, to why he couldn’t win in those years.

Perhaps he is often rated above some drivers because people simply believe he was a better driver than them? He also raced against Brabham, so if Moss is rated above him, it’s likely because he was believed to be a better driver at the time.

“Then you can just as easily put Kimi Raikkonen and Nigel Mansell in the top 10 because;
1.) Unlike Moss at least they won a championship
2.) They too were very unfortunate to not be a 3 time champion or so.”

I don’t really understand your point here, because if you play it like that you can justify any order you want as long as it’s results based. For example, if we were discussing Jim Clark being so frequently highly rated:

Then you can just as easily put Niki Lauda and Nelson Piquet in the top 3 because;

1.) Unlike Clark at least they won 3 championships
2.) They too were very unfortunate to not be a 4 time champion or so.

Or you can use the same logic to argue that Gilles Villeneuve doesn’t belong in the top 20 any more than Hunt or Hawthorn for example.

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matt90 said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

I can’t edit my post for some reason, but I’ll add that it probably helps Moss that on his day he could outshine Fangio, a feat not many achieved.

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Kingshark said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

So what makes you think Moss was so great? Why is he rated as being such an incredible driver, even though he failed to win a single championship in his career? Was he really that amazing as a driver?

Perhaps he is often rated above some drivers because people simply believe he was a better driver than them? He also raced against Brabham, so if Moss is rated above him, it’s likely because he was believed to be a better driver at the time.

I think that just further justifies my point that Moss is overrated and Brabham is underrated. If Moss was really better, then how come Brabham won two championships in the first three seasons of his career, while Moss didn’t win squat despite being in F1 much earlier than Brabham at that time?

Like it or not, statistics do mean a lot; every driver who enters Formula One is there to be achieve success, that is why I ultimately rate Schumacher as the greatest driver of all time.

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matt90 said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

“If Moss was really better, then how come Brabham won two championships in the first three seasons of his career, while Moss didn’t win squat despite being in F1 much earlier than Brabham at that time?”

Because of the reasons I described in my previous post, outlining exactly happened in those years. Brabham also didn’t have to contend with Fangio. I’m not going to repeat myself. I’m not saying you have to rate him higher, but all the justification you want and that people who compile these lists would consider, it is all there.

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Garns said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

Kingshark-

“How on earth can Prost, a guy who proved himself to be a superior driver to Senna at Mclaren, be so low?”

Really? With all due respect what is your premise behind this comment? I cant see how Prost could be considered superior to Ayrton in any way, especially at their time together at McLaren. Well maybe better at playing F1 politics or using the media but in my opinion Senna blew Prost out of the water as far as a race car driver is concerned!!

I do agree, however, that Prost is too low and a champion. Its VERY hard to compare drivers of different era’s but here is my try:

Senna
Fangio
Prost
Stewart
Shumacher

Another thought is with Vettel. While the guy is a great racer and will prove himeself to be a legend of the sport, if Webber or Alonso pipped him for the title in 2010 would he still be on the current list?

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Kingshark said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

Really? With all due respect what is your premise behind this comment? I cant see how Prost could be considered superior to Ayrton in any way, especially at their time together at McLaren. Well maybe better at playing F1 politics or using the media but in my opinion Senna blew Prost out of the water as far as a race car driver is concerned!!

In 1988-89 Prost scored a total of 186 points against Senna’s 154, and that was despite the fact that Mclaren favored Ayrton (according to Dennis). Prost outscored Senna by over 11 and 21 points respectively in both seasons; he was robbed from the 1988 championship thanks to the silly best 11 results rule which prevented a constant driver like Prost from outclassing an inconsistent and less mature driver like Senna. Also, for people who blame the ’89 Suzuka incident, Prost beat Senna by 21 points that season and would have won the championship regardless.

Thus, Prost > Senna IMO.

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Aditya Banerjee said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

I think the most important reason for him being up there,ahead of triple champions is his nationality. I fully agree with Kingshark that he deserves to be ranked in the top 20,but its ridiculous to see him get rated higher than the likes of Brabham,Lauda et al simply because he’s British. And none of the netizens around have ever seen him race,so results are the only basis on which he and his contemporaries can be ranked. Which werent as great as the likes of Ascari,Fangio or even Brabham,all of whom raced against him. Hence,its obvious that his nationality is the only reason for him getting ranked so highly…

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matt90 said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

Murray saw him race, and is part of the team ranking the drivers isn’t he? Don’t jump to silly conclusions.

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Aditya Banerjee said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

Ah,but with all due respect to the great Mr Walker,he’s British as well…

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matt90 said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

Using the nationality thing in my view completely invalidates your opinion, unless you have some evidence.

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Aditya Banerjee said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

What evidence do i need to prove that Mr Walker is British?? And its not really a crime to over-rate sportsmen who are of the same nationality as you…i was simply making an observation. Please dont think that im criticising Mr Walker or his views!!!!

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necrodethmortem said 8 months, 3 weeks ago:

@matt90

The list has been compiled by the BBC F1 team. Each member was asked to come up with their own personal list of the 20 greatest drivers since F1 started in 1950.

In each episode, veteran commentator Murray Walker will provide his personal reflections in a career highlights video featuring the driver, whom chief F1 writer Andrew Benson will profile.

Nowhere does it say that Murray had any input in the ranking, as, afaik, he is no longer part of the BBC F1 Team. All he does is give his personal recollections about each driver in the videos. And even if Murray’s ranking was included, it would only count as one of at least 20 (who are most likely British and not old enough to have witnessed Moss’ F1 days in great detail :P).

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