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BBC’s Top 20 F1 drivers ever (list) (365 posts)

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infernojim said 12 months ago:

@matt90
A lot of Vettel’s reliability issues were stemmed by poor on track decisions, e.g. running into his team mate / Button etc.

There were a couple of failures, but it was his own errors that meant that anyone else was even in the running really.

You could also argue on face value, that more specifically it was also Webber’s errors that even gave him the chance to win in the first place.

Vettel didn’t do anything miraculous to win in 2010, the other drivers (Webber) / teams (Ferrari) messed up to gift him the championship. He was still worthy of the title, but no more so than Raikkonnen when he was gifted his title in 2007 (NOTE I AM A MASSIVE KIMI FAN and believe he definitely deserves to have won a title, but it should have been in either 2003 or 2005, not 2007).

Similarly Hamilton should have won in 2007, but not in 2008 – Massa deserved it that year.

2010 is less clear cut than 2007 or 2008. However, on balance I think the driver of the year, and more worthy champion (much as I hate him) would have been Alonso, as he had no right to even be in the title hunt, but his relentless consistency pulled him into the race, and when you come to the last race of the season and are in the right place to get the job done, which Alonso was… ultimately, there is only one thing that could give Vettel the Championship and that was Ferrari f***king it up….

Obviously 2011 was a dominant win, and fair play to him. If he wins this season, then I will start rating him higher, but at the moment he’s a way off Alonso, even thought they have similar stats from a Wins / Titles perspective. On a par with Hamilton.

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matt90 said 12 months ago:

No, he also categorically had the worst reliability of any of the title contenders that was not a result of his collisions- I know he did make those 2 big mistakes, but he certainly lost more from reliability. Webber on the other hand lost very little due to reliability, only really a possible win when Vettel took him out as far as I remember.

And I’m not arguing about who deserved it more, because the case can be made equally for Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton. I’m just saying that to put it down to Ferreri messing up is to ignore a lot of the rest of the championship.

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infernojim said 12 months ago:

I’m willing to conceded that your point around reliability is fair.

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Dizzy-A said 12 months ago:

The problem is that several multiple champions have been revealed far too early. The likes of Brabham (triple champ that won in his own car), G. Hill & Fittipaldi (both with huge pedigree out of F1), and certainly Piquet should have been a lot higher, and keep Vettel away from the top 10.

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Younger Hamii said 12 months ago:

So Mansell is placed as the 13th greatest, well I think he should be in the top 10 personally this list is really creating a lot of suspense in the sense that we’ve got a rough idea who is placed where but BBC has thrown a few surprises in Hamilton making the top 15, there’s a sneaky intrinsic suspicious that Vettel & Hill will somehow crop up as the next drivers. Having mentioned them, If they do happen to be the next drivers then the list loses a lot of credence from my point of view, placing Vettel near Alonso & above Hamilton is reducing the credibility in the list itself.

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Dizzy-A said 12 months ago:

If they do happen to be the next drivers then the list loses a lot of credence from my point of view, placing Vettel near Alonso & above Hamilton is reducing the credibility in the list itself.

I don’t think Damon Hill is on the list. I also definitely don’t see how Vettel above Hamilton reduces the credibility of the list. Hamilton’s main selling point is how successful he is at such a young age, but Vettel beats him in both regards, and hasn’t regressed as Hamilton is believed to have done in 2011.

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Pamphlet said 12 months ago:

In all fairness, I’d sooner trust the beeb than some armchair experts. They know what they’re doing, and they know better than us.

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Journeyer said 12 months ago:

I’m surprised at the reaction that Mansell is below Vettel. I actually agree with it. Yes, Mansell won a lot of races, and nearly won 2 more titles. But the fact of the matter is that Vettel already has more titles than Mansell – at age 24. With AT LEAST 10 years of his career left ahead of him. They both won one title with a dominant car. But when they were both in a tight title battle with other former champions, Mansell lost (1986) while Vettel won (2010). So by any measure, I see Seb ahead of Nige.

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Dizzy-A said 12 months ago:

I agree with Vettel ahead of Mansell as well for the reasons @Journeyer stated.

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Slr said 12 months ago:

I’m not sure about Mansell being ahead of Piquet.

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katederby said 12 months ago:

Every argument about current drivers just enforces my opinion that drivers still on the grid shouldn’t be included on the list. We just don’t know how their career will develop, for good for bad. And there’s plenty of time to add them at a later date.

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raymondu999 said 12 months ago:

@infernojim reliability does not equal mistakes. Reliability is relating more to technical failures. And when did Webber make a mistake to let Vettel win anyways? I don’t remember any, except for Webber’s daft “I’ll just completely leave the inside line open into Turn 1″ in Malaysia. All the races Vettel won in 2010, he did so on pace. On the flipside, some of Webber’s wins were built on Vettel mistakes. The only time Webber was even POTENTIALLY faster in a race Vettel won in 2010 was Malaysia.

Unreliability for Vettel in 2010:
Bahrain – Win-4th, losing 13 points
Australia – Probable win, losing 25 points
Spain – Brake failure, losing 3 points
Monaco – cracked chassis, but I don’t believe this cost him points
Turkey – Broken rear suspension in qualifying cost him pole (he was 4 tenths quicker than Mark going into Sector 3 in Q3, and then his rear ARB failure lost him that advantage over the last 3 hairpins). That’s a probable win from pole there – but too debatable so I’ll leave that out.
Monza – stuck brakes which allowed Mark to cruise past. Mind you he took the place back (and more) with a stonking drive. I don’t think he lost anything.
Korea – blown engine, 25 points.

So in total, that’s at least 66 points lost.

Webber’s wins in 2010:
Spain 2010 – he was absolutely on it, and Vettel couldn’t touch him that weekend, but it wouldn’t have been as dominant a victory (ie a smaller gap to P2) had Vettel or Hamilton had cars that held up.
Monaco 2010 – absolutely on it again. Cannot begrudge him this.
Silverstone 2010 – A puncture for Vettel meant he lost all competition. I’m not saying that Vettel would have won instead of Mark, but once Vettel was out of the picture Mark could just toy around with the field.
Hungary 2010 – A drive through for Vettel while he was helping Mark back the pack up to make a gap stole a win from Vettel and gave it to Webber.

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Pamphlet said 12 months ago:

Before we continue on this path, I’ll just go ahead and remind you of these two: 2007 and 2010.

They explain not only why Vettel more than just deserved 2010 (and by what a margin!), but also why Raikkonen, not Hamilton, deserved to win in 2007.

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raymondu999 said 11 months, 2 weeks ago:

And in #12 – Gilles Villeneuve!

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mnmracer said 11 months, 2 weeks ago:

Are three current WDCs gonna break the top 10? At least we’ll get an answer to the before the summer holiday.

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