F1 Fanatic

I don’t think Hamilton was over-scored in Spain- he drove fantastically all weekend, as he should have gotten pole had the team not screwed up. He was the only driver to make a one-stop work too of course, and finished higher than his team mate. Not all of that can be said for Schumacher.

And for Monaco: “He, as ever, was overly dependent on his team to tell him what to do, and it cost him once again as he didn’t know when to push to prevent being passed by Alonso and Vettel.”
Overly dependent? Are you suggesting he should be able to know where all other drivers are, what their strategies are and what their current pace is, without his team telling him? Of course all drivers rely on their teams for that. I do agree that 9 seems a bit much though. Perhaps 7 or 8 would seem more fitting to me.

@kingshark

Do you have any idea how much Mclaren were off the pace in Monaco?

Prove it. Barcelona S3 is a very good indicator of which cars will be quick around Monaco, except in Monaco, the drivers can do a hell of a lot more of a difference. Hamilton was (IIRC) the quickest through there.

He started 3rd, and was in the same position after the first corner. How on earth is that a bad start?

It wasn’t a driver error I don’t think – but the start was poor. In the last 12 years IIRC only twice has 3rd place man failed to take P2 off the line – Webber last year and Hamilton this year.

I recommend you look at half of Mark Webber’s starts in his career before you call that start piss bad

Just because Webber has had worse, doesn’t mean what Hamilton had was good.

Hamilton did it with no tyres left

He had 3 sets of used options – and had he started the race on pole, he would’ve had to start on the set he set pole on – which he started on anyways. Then he had 2 new primes and 1 used prime. So with his 2-stopper, it didn’t affect his strategy in the slightest.

on one of the hardest circuits to pass on the calendar

It wasn’t this year. Name a single corner on the circuit (other than Turn 2, 6, and 8, which are just acceleration zones anyway) outside of Sector 3 where there wasn’t an overtake. Even then Turn 10 saw passing moves. Only Turn 11-16 saw no moves. Every other corner (except for the “corners” I mentioned – didn’t)

Mind you – it was still a blinder of a race. IMO it just wasn’t as godly as you made it out to be.

Prove it. Barcelona S3 is a very good indicator of which cars will be quick around Monaco, except in Monaco, the drivers can do a hell of a lot more of a difference. Hamilton was (IIRC) the quickest through there.

You can’t really compare Monaco with Barcelona. In the Spanish GP, most drivers generally go for a more downforce setup.
Common, Button started 13 and was stuck behind a Caterham for a whole race, who he couldn’t jump in the stops. Do you really think Jenson is that bad? Of course Mclaren were off the pace in Monaco.

It wasn’t a driver error I don’t think – but the start was poor. In the last 12 years IIRC only twice has 3rd place man failed to take P2 off the line – Webber last year and Hamilton this year.

Massa in 2007, Raikkonen in 2006, Webber in 2005. Really? Would you call those starts bad? Apart from Webber’s of course.

Just because Webber has had worse, doesn’t mean what Hamilton had was good.

I never said it was good, but it wasn’t piss poor either.

He had 3 sets of used options – and had he started the race on pole, he would’ve had to start on the set he set pole on – which he started on anyways. Then he had 2 new primes and 1 used prime. So with his 2-stopper, it didn’t affect his strategy in the slightest.

He had no fresh set of tyres. Unlike Button or Vettel, who only finished about 10 seconds ahead of him. That’s the only reason he did a two-stopper, and made it work to begin with.

It wasn’t this year. Name a single corner on the circuit (other than Turn 2, 6, and 8, which are just acceleration zones anyway) outside of Sector 3 where there wasn’t an overtake. Even then Turn 10 saw passing moves. Only Turn 11-16 saw no moves. Every other corner (except for the “corners” I mentioned – didn’t)

Overtaking has always been easier in the DRS, KERS and Pirelli era. That doesn’t change the fact that out of most of the circuits on the calendar, overtaking at Catalunya is rather a chore.

Oh btw, you need to know that I’ve never been a fan of Hamilton and I strongly dislike his incapability to accept that some incidents are his fault. However, this year he’s really proved me wrong.

@duncanmonza
Here is my VET – WEB comparison
Australia: VET 7,5 x 6,5 WEB
Malaysia: WEB 7 x 6 VET
China: WEB 8 x 7 VET
Bahrain: VET 9 x 6,5 WEB
Spain: VET 7,5 x 4 WEB
Monaco: WEB 9,5 x 8 VET

So by races its a tie, but VET has been more consistent.

@Kingshark – Uh, no.

If Webbers engineer had sent him out again in Q2 at Catalunya, he would have outqualified Vettel again, he would have had a handy haul of points and would be leading the WDC. Webber was quicker than Vettel all weeken long in Spain.

I’ll definitely give you that, especially as Hulkenberg seriously held him up in that race, but he wouldn’t have finished higher than 5th. If we’re to give Vettel 4th place in Malaysia and Webber 5th place in Spain, Vettel would’ve led by about 2 points. (+12 for Vettel and -2 for Webber in Malaysia, +10 for Webber and -2 for Vettel in Spain)

I don’t even think I should give Webber that much credit for Spain either. Sure, he was held up by Hulkenberg, but then Vettel was held up in China by Di Resta as well (and yes, I more than know that, unlike in Webber’s case, he was the one who messed up in quali) and yet it went down to the wire. And no, the “being released into free air” argument doesn’t stand, as Webber was also constantly getting great stops at the best possible times.

Yes, this is Webber’s best start to a season thus far, considering the circumstances (clearly not the best car, unlike the past 2.5 years). Yes, he’s a better qualifier than Vettel despite us not getting to see that in 2011. Yes, qualifying matters a bit more now, as every polesitter barring Hamilton has won the race he qualified first in. But no, that doesn’t mean that he’d be leading the championship. I don’t have to remind you of Prost and Senna, do I?

The only thing we can derive from this is that Webber, considering the circumstances, has, at the very least, been the second best qualifier so far. It remains to be seen if he can capitalize on that.

What if Alonso had won every race? What ifs don’t mean much. If Webber has the same amount of points as Vettel, then Webber has the same amount of points as Vettel, no amount of what ifs can change that.

updated after valencia:

1. ALO 8,73
2. VET 7,97
3. HAM 7,92
4. GRO 7,51
5. PER 7,51
6. RAI 7,48
7. WEB 7,26
8. KOV 6,92
9. DIR 6,92
10. ROS 6,92
11. HÜL 6,87
12. MSC 6,72
13. MAL 6,55
14. GLO 6,55
15. KOB 6,40
16. RIC 6,38
17. VER 6,15
18. DLR 6,12
19. PET 6,00
20. MAS 5,94
21. BUT 5,60
22. PIC 5,57
23. SEN 5,46
24. KAR 3,90