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F1

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F1 discussion

Brawn GP were good, Mercedes GP not so good

This topic contains 12 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Icthyes Icthyes 3 years, 4 months ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
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  • #129805
    Profile photo of Frommerchicken
    Frommerchicken
    Participant

    How come Brawn dominated one season, then got taken over by Mercedes, and now are out of the running…?

    #175195
    Profile photo of matt90
    matt90
    Participant

    The change of rules with Honda backing money and a Mercedes engine. And Button drove immensely. Their advantage was gone the next season, although it is surprising that Ross Brawn, especially with MSC, hasn’t been able reproduce any significant results.

    #175196
    Profile photo of wasiF1
    wasiF1
    Participant

    The thing is that Brawn started developing their 2009 car mid way to the 2008 season & they had what we called Double Diffuser at the start of the season which though Williams & Toyota had but couldn’t make best use of it.

    #175197
    Profile photo of Eggry
    Eggry
    Participant

    They pioneered double diffuser and understand early how end plate of the front wing is important in 2009. All they are now everywhere and Merc have had little innovation in recent 2 years. If you cannot innovate something, at least you should do everything better than others. That’s what Ferrari and Red Bull(This year. last year was innovative) has done. Mclaren has exotic sidepod, Renualt has exotic exhaust even though it was not so successful. I think they need more clever engineers not only Ross Brawn.

    #175198
    Profile photo of Zadak
    Zadak
    Member

    you could say it’s all down to the budget

    All the Honda development money from pretty much the second race of 2008 went to the 2009 car. The 2008 Honda was a disaster and they knew it, so they focused 100% on 2009.

    So that’s 2008 + 2009 development budgets from one of the biggest spenders F1 has ever seen

    Mercedes is developing each car as they go, and they are not spending that much compared to what Honda was dishing out.

    However, I understand that the lead designer who came up with this year’s Mercedes is only in his first year in that roll, and just like a driver in his rookie year, he’ll get better.

    #175199
    Profile photo of GR
    GR
    Participant

    I would add that you could look at it another way – the team is effectively the old Honda team that was floating about at the back of the grid for quite a few years. Since Brawn joined they made a flukey leap to the front with their innovation around the double diffuser, and for two years running they’ve managed to stay at the back of the top four, even picking up a podium or two.

    That’s actually pretty good going!

    #175200
    Profile photo of George
    George
    Participant

    Yes I always think of them as Honda GR. I’d say they’ve actually gone back to their roots and are performing similarly to they did in BAR/early Honda form.

    In this game throwing money at a problem doesn’t always work, as Honda, Toyota and BMW found out. You need the brains to use that money correctly and to create the ideas, and you need the correct structure to make sure the right ideas get to production.

    Lets not forget that this team has overgone a lot of changes in structure over the last few years compared to the top 3 teams (similarly to Renault), it’s possible they’ll grow in strength after a gestation period.

    #175201
    Profile photo of Stefan Kelly
    Stefan Kelly
    Participant

    I have always wondered what Ferrari would have been like these last few years if Brawn had gone back to them and not switched to Honda. I think Mercedes still need a year or 2 to be on par with the other top teams.

    #175202
    Profile photo of S.J.M
    S.J.M
    Participant

    Did Mercedes ever bring its work force back up to strenght after 2009? I remember a lot of them got let off just before the team started pre-season testing (when even Jensen didnt have a seat). Maybe they did, i dont know. But as Renault are finding out now, when you start loosing people, the performance drops.

    #175203
    Profile photo of Journeyer
    Journeyer
    Participant

    They’re slowly rebuilding that workforce, most notably with Bob Bell. But I don’t think they ever rehired everyone they let go. This may be a manufacturer team like Honda, but they’re certainly not spending at the same level as Honda. And that may be hurting them a bit.

    #175204
    Profile photo of BasCB
    BasCB
    Participant

    I read just yesterday, how Mercedes tried to run with the 450 team members they had from the Brawn days, but finally gave up and decided to hire more people (a meeting at the German GP with Mercedes top bosses), now they are hiring for 39 positions, apparently taking in about 100 staff.

    #175205
    Profile photo of Ell
    Ell
    Participant

    Why BGP were good..

    1) Mclaren and Ferrari- They had a great 2008, battling for the title honours all season, spent all season developing the car, and inevitably they lagged behind on 2009 car development. It was until Germany were both teams started to fight with Brawn and Red Bull.

    2) Honda’s bad 2008- Honda had a poor 2008, and wrote off car development mid-season. That meant they could concentrate on 2009 development and had a great car. That leads me on to the next point..

    3) Honda’s budget- The BGP 001 was nearly finished by the time Honda pulled out, so they made full use of Honda’s budget. They had a lot of money to develop the car, and that lead on to the..

    4) Double Diffuser- Brawn had made and pioneered the double diffuser. Their main rivals Red Bull didn’t have it at the start off the season. Had they, they would have been with Brawn from the start, and it could be a different story..

    Why MGP aren’t so good..

    1) Red Bull, Mclaren and Ferrari- Best drivers, superior cars, most money, what more can you ask for.

    2) BGP’s great 2009- Brawn had a fantastic 2009. But despite that, they were pushed by Red Bull and kept having to develop their car. Their 2010 car was well off the pace, they didn’t have enough money either to develop the car.

    3) Manpower- Because of Brawn’s budget, they couldn’t afford to employ lots of men, and struggled to develop their 2009 car annd their 2010 at the same time. MG also tried to use this manpower, and it didn’t work.

    4) Bad Base Car- Like Mclaren and Ferrari in 2009, Brawn spent so much money researching their 2009 car, and they had a bad base for a 2010 car. That lead to poor base for a 2011 car. If you look at the RB7, it has evolved from the RB5.

    #175206
    Profile photo of Icthyes
    Icthyes
    Participant

    Actually I think they stopped developing the car seriously at the time of the Hungarian Grand Prix. McLaren by contrast kept going until the last few races that year. But it was a decision forced by money.

    There’s also the fact that the W01 was designed around Jenson Button and his driving style, which completely compromised 2010 for Schumacher and Rosberg, so they’ve had to start almost from scratch this year with a smaller budget than other teams and a rookie designer.

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