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F1 discussion

Division 2 will cease to exist?

This topic contains 15 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of LL Jehto LL Jehto 3 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 16 total)
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  • #129682
    Avatar of LL Jehto
    LL Jehto
    Member

    The general consensus on the build up for the British GP regarding the upcoming ban of the off-throtle blown diffusers is that all teams will suffer more or less equally. Except maybe, the teams that haven’t been able to implement that concept, which according to the wikipedia 2011 Brit. GP page are the Cosworth-powered ones (Virgin, Hispania and Williams) and the Ferrari costumers Sauber and Toro Rosso. They say 1 second is what the teams will be slower because of the ban, but it won’t be noticeable because they’ll all lose the same second. What everybody is forgetting is the other teams: With the recent form of the Saubers, will we finally see a podium finish (with luck maybe a win?) for Kobayashi or/and Perez? Will the Williams be able to reach (or pass) Mercedes/Renault or even Ferrari/McLaren? (remember Mónaco, low-downforce track, where the BD didn’t have that much effect, the form of Maldonado and Barrichello?)

    And finally, will the backmarckers be able to scramble into the midfield, which of course would be great because it’s kind of painfull to watch for more than a year now those career-destroying (Glock? Kovaleinen?) moving chicanes doing nothing more than circle around and ocasionally ruin somebody else race? Well, 1 second still won’t be enough, but it will give them a push (I’m not sure about Team Lotus, as they’re not mention on the source as not benefiting from the O-T BD, hopefully they’re not and for them it would be enough)

    #173150
    Avatar of Zadak
    Zadak
    Member

    I’m afraid the two teams at the back of the grid will still be stuck at the back. They wont nessecarily be struggeling to stay within 107% though.

    The ones I see to benefit most from the British GP are Sauber. The car is good in high speed corners and changable conditions, both of which are in Silverstone. Kamui is also very good at Silverstone and in the wet. Podium could be possible.

    However I think Red Bull are just too fast anyway in all areas and if they are not the fastest in Britain I think Ferrari will be.

    #173151
    Avatar of Icthyes
    Icthyes
    Participant

    I though every team bar the Cosworths were hot-blowing their diffusers? So I don’t see Sauber coming too much into the picture, just a bit more than usual.

    #173152
    Avatar of Ned Flanders
    Ned Flanders
    Participant

    I agree with Icthyes, I doubt much will change. If Sauber get a podium this season I’ll eat my hat (though I’ll be happy to, because I like the team), and if they win a race I’ll eat my own head

    #173153
    Avatar of LL Jehto
    LL Jehto
    Member

    though the arguments are valid (I also included a source, Itchyes -> i’m talking about off-throtle bla-bla-bla, that’s what’s banned from Silverstone and what they say the Cosworth engine/Sauber/TR can’t do; don’t know about just hot-blowing diffusers, I assume they all do that by now);

    the point was to raise different opinions, yes, but with fundamentation, not autophagic proposals…

    #173154
    Avatar of Icthyes
    Icthyes
    Participant

    Hot-blowing and off-throttle blowing are nearly the same thing. To hot-blow, you have to be able to blow off-throttle in the first place. Though your wiki article states that those teams aren’t blowing off-throttle, the reference article actually says they’re not hot-blowing.

    So whilst I may be mistaken about Sauber hot-blowing, I think they’re still cold-blowing, so they won’t advance that much.

    #173155
    Avatar of LL Jehto
    LL Jehto
    Member

    I thought it was the other way around (to blow off throttle you had to hot-blow in the first place), it makes more sense, this way, the wiki article would be right into deducing they’re not off-trohttle blowing by citing an article that states they’re not hot-blabla; but I don’t know

    again, by stating they are cold-blabla (first time I’ve heard about this new kind of blabla) you can’t say they won’t advance that much; they’ll advance as much as the others that are not off-throttle blabla, because the ban is only about off-throttle blabla

    #173156
    Avatar of Prisoner Monkeys
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    I very much doubt the gap is simply going to evaporate. I think people are reading far too much into the OTBD concept.

    #173157
    Avatar of LL Jehto
    LL Jehto
    Member

    did you read anything of the thread, Prisoner Monkeys?

    #173158
    Avatar of Felipe Bomeny
    Felipe Bomeny
    Participant

    I honestly think Sauber can pull off a podium in wet conditions, even though the off-throttle diffuser ban will not turn them into RB Sevens. Thankfully @Ned Flanders never said “I’ll eat my own head if Toro Rosso wins a race” in 2008.

    #173159
    Avatar of LL Jehto
    LL Jehto
    Member

    I can’t wait for the next GP’s.. I wonder how are we gonna enforce Ned Flanders to keep his promise?

    #173160
    Avatar of Journeyer
    Journeyer
    Participant

    IIRC, Ted mentioned in his post-race pitlane segment in Valencia that Red Bull won’t be as badly affected as the others – because they don’t hot-blow their engines. They tried the concept earlier in the year, but couldn’t make it work, so dumped it while Ferrari and McLaren kept using it. They’ve stuck to cold-blowing (which, if I understand the new rules right) is still allowed.

    If that’s correct, then it looks like RBR may have an even bigger gap to the others this weekend.

    #173161
    Avatar of Icthyes
    Icthyes
    Participant

    Okay, let’s sort out this mess.

    Off-throttle blowing of the diffuser is when you engineer the engine map to allow gases to continue to flow through the exhaust into the diffuser. This is also known as cold-blowing to separate it from hot-blowing, which is tweaking the engine map to continue to burn fuel even though the throttle is not being pressed. Hot-blowing gives a greater advantage than cold-blowing.

    HBD is the more advanced version of OTBD, it even says so in the BBC article linked to in the Wiki page. I thought Sauber were hot-blowing because the Ferrari engine can do it, however it’s not as simple as turning it on, there’s some car designing to be done too, so maybe they never got that far. I haven’t seen anything that says they’re not blowing their diffuser in the first place – in fact when HRT threatened to protest the diffusers in Spain and Monaco, Sauber were not named as one of the teams that would be safe. Only Virgin and HRT aren’t blowing off-throttle, to the best of my knowledge.

    So, Sauber will not advance as much as fighting regularly for podiums.

    #173162
    Avatar of Ned Flanders
    Ned Flanders
    Participant

    PortuGoose- good point, although 2008 was a wacky season! Still though, if Sauber get a podium this year it’ll almost certainly be through luck or attrition. Saying as they’ve only managed two top six finishes since BMW left, I see nothing to suggest that they will suddenly leap forward

    #173163
    Avatar of Fixy
    Fixy
    Participant

    I agree with Prisoner Monkeys.

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