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F1

Public Group active 9 hours, 22 minutes ago

F1 discussion

Does Martin Whitmarsh favour Button over Hamilton?

This topic contains 33 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Nick Nick 1 year, 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 34 total)
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  • #132123
    Avatar of Ginola14
    Ginola14
    Participant

    Anyone get the feeling that Martin wouldn’t be sorry or heartbroken to see Lewis go?

    Martin, as has been observed, does not seem openly as affectionate with Lewis as he is with Jenson and it seems Martin is not hiding his antipathy towards Lewis too well in the recent negotiations.

    Doesn’t really seem fair to Lewis who is clearly the faster driver that he is asked to take a pay cut so that he and Jenson are on equal pay terms.

    #210941
    Avatar of Prisoner Monkeys
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    Doesn’t really seem fair to Lewis who is clearly the faster driver that he is asked to take a pay cut so that he and Jenson are on equal pay terms.

    Doesn’t really seem fair to Button or the team that when Hamilton gets so desperate to prove his lack of pace in qualifying was not his fault, he posts telemetry on the internet where every other team can see it. Especially considering that that telemetry showed the difference between wing specifications, thereby allowing rival engineers to understand exactly how McLaren’s upgrade worked.

    Hamilton might be faster than Button, but he’s also undisciplined. Ever since joining the team, he’s been at the centre of one controversy or another, whether it was the antics at the Hungaroring in 2007, getting booked for hooning in Melbourne that one time, lying to the stewards in 2009, constantly crashing into other drivers all throughout 2011 and refusing to admit that anything was wrong, or uploading telemetry onto the internet at Spa this year. His speed is offset by his immaturity, and his off-track antics has repeatedly proven to be a liability for the team. Jenson Button, on the other hand, puts considerably more thought into what he does, and off the track, he is the model of a McLaren driver. Just because Hamilton is faster, it doesn’t mean he’s worth more. He’s been bloody stupid at times, with conduct unbecoming of a driver, and that means his vaule goes down.

    Furthermore, McLaren have to pay for engines next year, and there is ongoing uncertainty over their title sponsor. They know they will be operating on a reduced budget, and they need to cut costs where they can. If you have a driver who acts like a teenager at times, of course he’s going to be asked to take a pay cut. It’s not like he needs the money – one year’s salary should be enough for him to live the rest of his life on.

    #210942
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Yes, it´s obvious and even though Button is considered by some as “the model of a McLaren driver” , it makes me wonder what is more important… a model driver or someone who can actually put his money where his mouth is… I could care less if he says and acts the way a drivers is supposed to act… THAT is what is wrong with the sport…. too much hipocresy…. Vettel is in the same boat here as is pretty much every other driver… It´s a shame how political correctness neuters the drivers….
    Lewis might have had some foul ups in the past but this season… IMHO, he is putting Button to shame…
    Anyways this is total BS…. How was Ron able to handle Ayrton back then…. he was said to have been a real pain then… and see…. talent kept him onboard even thought they had Prost… Same deal now…. I just find it amazing that McLaren is the only team that always gets these dumb controversy with their drivers… Maybe McLaren should grow up in that sense….

    #210943
    Avatar of Prisoner Monkeys
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    It´s a shame how political correctness neuters the drivers

    It’s not about being politically correct. It’s about having the sense to avoid embarrassing the team. If Hamilton put a little bit more thought into what he was doing before he actually did it, then it would not be a problem.

    How was Ron able to handle Ayrton back then…. he was said to have been a real pain then

    He might have been a pain in the neck, but he had the good sense not to do something as embarrassing as lying to the stewards about passing a driver under yellow, or posting data about the car’s performance in the public arena where anyone could see it.

    Just because Hamilton is quick, it doesn’t give him the right to be unprofessional without there being any kind of consequences for his actions.

    #210944
    Avatar of AdrianMorse
    AdrianMorse
    Participant

    After the telemetry tweeting, it was said that it was gold dust to the engineers of rival teams. More and more, I’ve come to believe that it was solid bullion to his critics. How many times has @prisoner-monkeys brought this up already on this forum? And I suspect that whatever Hamilton does and achieve in the future, he will continue to trundle it out.

    Back to the intended subject of this thread, I thought it was odd the way Whitmarsh responded in his post-qualifying interview to the BBC. It was only a short clip, and it’s easy to make too much of these things, but he did not seem particularly happy.

    As for Hamilton’s contract negotiations, I still don’t know what the offers on the table are. At the beginning of the season, we saw some list driver earnings in which it was claimed that Jenson and Lewis earned the same. This sounds perfectly logical to me. Jenson re-negotiated his contract last year when he was driving at his best ever, and Lewis was floundering, so it’s only natural for Jenson to ask as least as much as what Lewis was earning. If so, and Lewis now has to take a pay-cut, then that doesn’t feel right to me, given their respective performances this season. Furthermore, it sends out a signal to Lewis that he’s not really wanted at the team anymore, which might well be more important than the actual amount he finally earns.

    #210945
    Avatar of Prisoner Monkeys
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    After the telemetry tweeting, it was said that it was gold dust to the engineers of rival teams. More and more, I’ve come to believe that it was solid bullion to his critics. How many times has Prisoner Monkeys brought this up already on this forum? And I suspect that whatever Hamilton does and achieve in the future, he will continue to trundle it out.

    If it were an isolated incident, I would leave it alone. But it’s not. I’ve said this before – Hamilton has displayed some of the most bizarre behaviour that we have ever seen from a Formula 1 driver.

    Just as Pastor Maldonado’s on-track episodes will always be remembered and held against him, so too will Hamilton’s off-track adventures.

    #210946
    Avatar of Keith Collantine
    Keith Collantine
    Keymaster

    Does Martin Whitmarsh favour Button over Hamilton?

    No.

    They both get equal equipment and equal chances in the race, at least as far as both are mathematically capable of winning the championship.

    And that’s what matters, not some vague rambling about Whitmarsh not being “affectionate” enough.

    #210947
    Avatar of Ginola14
    Ginola14
    Participant

    I think i have read some fair points that Lewis might be getting too much for McLaren to handle.
    His petulance and the relative lukewarmness Martin displays towards him might mean a separation of ways would be best for both parties. The effusive way he thanked his engineers and mechanics after Monza meant he probably knew already that he would not be there next year.

    However, i think it would not be a wise move to make Button the no 1 driver.
    Button is no muppet of course as a racer and he knows his way around F1 for sure but we are not judging him against commoners like us. IMHO, McLaren should be getting someone like Raikkonen back – a driver who is evidently just that bit faster in qualifying and on raceday. Button will have his moments of course but over the course of a season, his pace deficiency relative to the elite group of drivers will always see him drop out of contention for the title prematurely at some stage like 2010 and this year.

    The greatest weakness that Button has perhaps is that if the car is not set up to his liking, he completely falls off the cliff as we saw in Canada this year when he was lapped by Hamilton. Whereas the likes of Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel can drive around the same problem and still deliver a competitive finish.

    I like Button as a driver and you can count on him to deliver some top-drawer glorious moments that have fans on the edge of their seats like Canada last year. The walloping he gave an out-of-sorts Lewis last year was i feel, a more majestic effort than even his 2009 season in comparison. He is McLaren material definitely and even Ferrari and Red Bull material for that matter. but probably not McLaren no 1 material and that is my frank opinion.

    #210948
    Avatar of Ral
    Ral
    Member

    Nonsense. I think the “being publicly affectionate” thing is way overblown anyway. But then I’m not counting the number of hugs doled out.

    Also, the lying to stewarts thing can’t be blamed on Hamilton imo. Being caught doing donuts is also childish to hold against an F1 driver outside an F1 track. I doubt anyone present at the time thought anything other than “woohoo and good on Hamilton for entertaining us like this”. Except the policeman I guess ;)

    #210949
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Back to the intended subject of this thread, I thought it was odd the way Whitmarsh responded in his post-qualifying interview to the BBC. It was only a short clip, and it’s easy to make too much of these things, but he did not seem particularly happy.

    I think it’s possible that Whitmarsh and team were already concerned about Lewis’ clash with the wall in Q2 and the possibility of taking a transmission change penalty – hence a somewhat subdued response even after taking pole.

    #210950
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    Being caught doing donuts is also childish to hold against an F1 driver outside an F1 track. I doubt anyone present at the time thought anything other than “woohoo and good on Hamilton for entertaining us like this”. Except the policeman I guess ;)

    Well it goes against what the FIA actively promotes… Road safety. And try saying woohoo and good for someone who hoons in front of families that have lost loved ones because of these silly antics on public roads. Race drivers know how dangerous their sport is and hence it’s why it’s done under as controlled of an environment as possible and confined to a race track. Doing this sort of thing in public is attention seeking for all the wrong reasons – and that’s what Lewis got in Melbourne.

    #210951

    The logical solution to any situation where the situation can be variable is to “Hedge your bets” and by having one driver who is going to give you 99.9% of a car’s performance without breaking it too often and one who can get 100.5% out if it, but will bin it by trying too hard a little more regularly, the team’s interests are benefitted equally by both drivers and as such, the remuneration for their efforts should also be equal in my opinion.

    #210952
    Avatar of Ginola14
    Ginola14
    Participant

    They both get equal equipment and equal chances in the race, at least as far as both are mathematically capable of winning the championship.

    And that’s what matters, not some vague rambling about Whitmarsh not being “affectionate” enough.

    I don’t think i said anything about the McLaren drivers NOT getting equal equipment.

    All i said was there appears to be an issue between Martin and Lewis and whoever is wrong or right, a split appears inevitable judging by the kind of body language they display towards each other. Whereas there seems to be no problem between Martin and Jenson and it does show in public.

    End of day, they are humans as well and it is the same for us as it is for them out there in the working world. We might work as hard as a fellow colleague but if only 1 man can be promoted, the boss might feel he gets on better with you and the promotion opportunity passes your equally talented team-mate by. It is maybe not fair but no-one can say the boss is wrong to choose that way.

    If Martin feels he can gel better with Jenson and prefers to retain him over Lewis, he is well justified to do that as these people are not androids and interpersonal relations do play a significant role behind the scenes. But perhaps what Martin should consider is whether Jenson is as complete a package as rivals like Alonso, Vettel or Raikkonen to make him the default lead driver. I would be happy if Martin can sign Raikkonen and let the 2 drivers duel it out fair and square on equal equipment rather than sign someone to be an understudy to Button.

    #210953
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    @Ginola14

    I don’t think i said anything about the McLaren drivers NOT getting equal equipment.

    Don´t worry, that´s Mr. Colantine´s way of being “objective”. He looks just at the facts and thinks the team deals with robots… Everyone can see that Hamilton´s relationship with the team is doomed. In the end, moving out of McLaren will be Lewis´ best decision ever as it was Alonso´s in 2007… He walked out on his contract and never looked back and noone can argue he´s had it bad…

    Jenson is as complete a package as rivals like Alonso, Vettel or Raikkonen to make him the default lead driver

    Ummmm, Jenson is good but IMHO he´s not lead driver material if you judge talent alone… now if you take the “Marketting” view on things… you pick him as lead driver since he´s a good guy and keeps his nose clean… To me in the end, I´d preffer someone like Hamilton… why? well, he squeezes everything out of what he´s got in hands, is competitive in uncompetitive material and is very fast! Sure he might have his moments off track but hey… they do have lives you know!! Sure, being a public figure he should be careful but I mean… Clinton got away with having an affair while in office…. I think Lewis might get away with doing a couple of donuts… it´s not like he´s a noob driver… sure, he shouldn´t of have done it but hey… he´s as good as it gets behind the wheel of a car…

    I think too much has been made by some members here about Hamilton´s private life off track and they tend to carry that to his professional life where his main concern is to drive and get results which he does…
    See… there goes the hipocresy again… everybody talks about Hunt being a rebel, a drinker, drug user, etc… and everyone saw him as a “cool” characher and nobody gave him crap about it… but do a couple of donuts in front of a crowd to entertain them or outside the track and we all have to burn him at the stake? I think not…

    #210954
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    @Prisoner Monkeys

    It’s not about being politically correct. It’s about having the sense to avoid embarrassing the team. If Hamilton put a little bit more thought into what he was doing before he actually did it, then it would not be a problem.

    So by that rationale, Kimi shouldn´t even be in F1…. I mean….. I find it way more embarrasing falling over a boat dead drunk, having Ice Cream while in a qualy, etc, than doing a couple of donuts… yet everybody likes Kimi?? It´s funny how it works when one hates someone doesn´t it? Kimi has been a total embarrasment and yet, Williams and Renault where fighting over him to have him as a driver… I wonder what ever did they see in him to take him into consideration….
    It´s all about the talent but it seems McLaren want someone that is “marketable”, as Vettel is, to lead their team… In the end, Lewis out of McLaren will be good for him!

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