F1 Fanatic

Should a pass on the first lap count?
I say yes. The argument is of course that this is more the field shuffling into position. Drivers could hold position, but we would lose half the field in less than a lap! That said, track position from the start is relative to driver, and to a lesser extent, car performance. Being slow off the line should not take away from someone who is quick off the line which ultimately ends in an over-take. It’s equal opportunities as far as i’m concerned.

Does a ‘pass in the pits’ count as overtaking? I say no. This is not directly related to driver skill, at least not when it comes to defending track position. You could argue perhaps the pitting driver could look after his tyres more or be wary of chipping his aero, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he wouldn’t be able defend if he was still out on the track.

If a driver is passed then re-passes in a single lap, does that count as two passes (one by each driver) or none? I say this counts as two over-takes, one for each driver. If we are faced with a situation this year where there is some real jostling for position (i’m thinking McLaren at Istanbul 2010 post-RBR disaster) there is no way we could count (or not count as the case may be) that wonderful situation as an over-taking free zone!

So I agree with Keith on 2/3 points.

It’s basically defining the difference between relative track position and over-taking in a defensive/attacking mindset.

I think that might be getting a bit heavy Paco Ramirez, personally. With that way of thinking it’s difficult to know where to stop.

Actually, thinking about it a bit more, I think maybe we’re not considering the third question in enough detail. In some cases, eg Turkey 2010 when the McLarens swapped twice in a few corners (albeit over two separate laps), they are clearly proper passing moves which ought to be counted.

However, in some cases, there is more of a grey area. I can’t think of any real life examples off the top of my head, so here’s a hypothetical example: car A makes a move on car B into Turn 1. The two cars exit the corner and run down the following straight side by side, though with car A a nose in front he has technically passed car B. Then, into Turn 2, car B slips back in front.

I would class that as one attempted pass and one successful defence, rather than two overtakes. But this is very complicated. Perhaps when we determine what constitutes a pass we can send our theory to the Oxford English Dictionary…

Don’t forget, you also have to determine when an overtaking move has been completed. Keith mentioned briefly that we might have to count multiple overtakes in a lap. However, what happens when cars go through multiple corners side by side? For instance, the final three corners of Turkey have seen cars get in front, then behind and then back in front again, but do each of those count as an overtake? Or is it simply one overtake? Could it be determined simply by how far ahead one car is (halfway down the length of the car, fully beyond, a carlength behind?)? Or should it be determined by the amount of time which one car is farther ahead than another?

There’s a lot of gray areas in this that need to be neatly and succinctly defined.

The problem with that is that is still a subjective definition. It’s probably best to deal with concrete facts and not judgment calls since this is going to be a statistics thing.

Sorry JoeyPoey, I should have been more clear. When I said it depends on which driver has the better line, that’s assuming that having that better line coming out of a corner will result in an advantage in track position, an over-take. Basically i’m saying that sometimes it’s wiser to hang back going into one turn on a chicane knowing that you might have an advantage going into the next turn of the same chicane.

1. Yes, because getting a good start is mainly done by the driver and getting into a good position to gain postions in the pack is also a case of putting yourself in the right place.

2. No no no

3. Definitly two passes.

So, on re-passes, how many overtaking moves did we see between Hamilton and Petrov at Malaysia last year?