Groups

F1 Fanatic crowdsource project: Overtaking statistics (75 posts)

Topic tags: F1, F1 overtaking statistics, F1 statistics, overtaking

Viewing post 46 to 60 (75 total posts)

← 1 … 3 4 5 →

AndrewTanner said 2 years, 3 months ago:

Seems like a fair idea to me Ben. Having the option to add or remove that statistic should suit everyone.

#
AndrewTanner said 2 years, 3 months ago:

Thinking about it now, i’m inclined to back track! I’m thinking an over-take is defined as failure to defend and NOT gaining track position due to an off. But i’m not sure…being indecisive this morning :/

#
peteleeuk said 2 years, 3 months ago:

I still think first lap overtaking IS “real, ontrack overtaking”, if it is that – ontrack.

From my (generally poor) memory of the Vettel start virtually the whole grid went by while he was going rallying through sand and grass. By my understanding these wouldn’t be counted as real ontrack overtakes during the main race – they are certainly not racing overtakes. Otherwise, even 10 laps in, someone having a heavy off would still be ‘overtaken’ by about 90% of the field when no overtaking manoeuvres have occurred. Merely changes of position, not overtakes.

If the statistic is for a reflection of racing overtaking surely a driver limping back to the pits with a puncture is not being overtaken in a racing sense? Otherwise the same statistical anomalies will occur throughout the race.

In my mind an overtake would be one driver passing another using an element of skill. Where skill ends and luck begins is a tricky one though.

#
Asanator said 2 years, 3 months ago:

Surely pressuring the guy in front into making a mistake is part of the art of overtaking!

#
AndrewTanner said 2 years, 3 months ago:

It is Asanator, without a doubt. But I would think that level of pressure only really comes into it when he’s right on your backside…so much so you have to employ weaving.

#
peteleeuk said 2 years, 3 months ago:

Exactly. Using that Vettel start again (and again from my very poor memory, so excuse me if i’m wrong) there was one clear overtake by Webber, one driver overtook another. After that and because of that Vettel fell of the track and everyone else went by. None of these overtook in a racing sense, they just took his position.

#
Jay_au said 2 years, 3 months ago:

Discussions of this caliber are why I love F1F and I think Curly’s made some excellent points.

Statistics need to be free of subjective bias and follow clear and simple parameters; otherwise year to year comparisons become very difficult, particularly if you attempt to make allowances for rule changes each year.

I disagree that first lap overtakes are not a demonstration of skill, but understand that they would misrepresent the statistic across an entire race distance.

For that reason, I would measure (similar to the position change at end of lap one chart) position changes through the first, or first two sectors and then measure passing moves from that point (using the same point on each track for consistency). That way, we can measure overtakes between races or between drivers, without it being skewed by � but also identifying � which tracks are essentially over after the first sector.

Position changes resulting from pit stops, crashes, mechanical failures & blue flags should not count as passes.

The Oxford definition of overtake (yes, someone had to do it) is to “catch up with and pass while travelling in the same direction.” This implies a speed differential that you should maintain out of the corner. So, Curly�s concept of the pass needing to �stick� has real merit. I.e. If you dive into a corner, severely affecting your exit speed, and are re-passed on the run to the following corner, I would consider that a pass that did not stick.

#
US_Peter said 2 years, 3 months ago:

I would vote strongly in favor of including first lap passes after the first corner, as they certainly can be what one would call a “competitive overtaking move,” which is I think what we’re all interested in tracking. Take Valencia last year as an example… after the grid worked itself out into the first corner, some genuine wheel to wheel racing occurred between Button and Kubica. Button initially overtakes Kubica, then Webber. I would count that as two passes by Button. By the time they reach the bridge, Kubica has managed to overtake Webber as well, and retake his position from Button. I would count that as two overtakes by Kubica. I know that the grid is still incredibly compressed in the opening stages of a race, but it doesn’t take any less skill for a driver to navigate his way past a competitor. He still relies on his ability to stay in control of a car with full fuel on board, and take advantage of any slight mistake his competitors may make to get by.

I would only count wheel to wheel competitive overtaking moves, not passes due to a driver having a complete off, having a mechanical failure, or being pushed off by another driver. If a driver is forced into a mistake by the driver behind him and has an off, that might be another matter. The Ferraris and Hamilton passing Vettel in Bahrain last year were not “competitive overtakes,” as Vettel had no recourse to defend, with his car running on decreased power. Likewise I would argue that Alonso passing Massa in Germany was not a “competitive overtake,” as Massa was not allowed to compete against his team mate. Likewise I wouldn’t count the field passing Vettel in the opening lap at Silverstone, as once Hamilton had harpooned Vettel’s tire, there was little he would be able to do to defend his position, let alone keep his car on the track. I wouldn’t omit that from the stats by eliminating all first lap overtakes however, as I explained above, I think that anything after the first corner should count, this would be ruled out as out of the drivers control. Another similar example would be last year at Melbourne where Webber plowed Hamilton off the circuit and Rosberg flew past them both. Clearly that is a case of Rosberg being in the right place at the right time, and not a competitive overtake.

#
W-K said 2 years, 3 months ago:

If the overtaking at the race start is removed from the stats, then how do you classify the overtaking done when the driver does a glorious dive through the field to end up in the points having been shuffled to the back of the pack.

Logically, if he wasn’t overtaken at the start, he cannot overtake to recover position, because mathematically it never happened.

#
W-K said 2 years, 3 months ago:

If two drivers are battling for the “Nth” position and they never actually change position completely, would it class as an overtake if the following driver gets his nose in front for a few seconds when crossing the finish line? Because officially as far as the stats indicate the following driver was in “Nth” at the end of that lap.

#
Hare said 2 years, 3 months ago:

I think first lap passes are very definitely overtaking moves, and count as passes. However, they are a different class of pass, especially off the line, and should be tagged or classified as such.

Passes via pit stops, are not passes by any standard other than strategic.

So for me, I would propose 4 levels/tags of passing :
A) off the line ( before the first corner)
B) first lap ( exit of first corner to start/finish )
C) on track
D) pit stop

then you can break up the data accordingly, map it, graph it, and generally do what you like with it :) It satisfies the pragmatist in me.

For instance:
Lewis Hamilton:
- 3xA ( off the line),
- 1xB (first lap),
- 5xC (on track),
- 2xD (pitstop)
= Total : 11 passes

This way, with an interactive chart, (the type Keith is quite conversant with), one can choose ones own definition of a pass, and be happy with that. It allows us to break down the type of passing, and identify where these drivers are getting their merits.

This year, it may help us see who has the better KERS system off the line. Perhaps assist who has the better combination of KERS and ARW on the straights, as hopefully some of that data will bubble up.

Well that’s my 2cents worth :)

#
AndrewTanner said 2 years, 3 months ago:

Agree with Hare. Recording all passes under different classification suits every thing IMO :)

#
DVC said 2 years, 3 months ago:

In deference to Guy’s example, perhaps a condition for an overtake should be that it has not been directed by a team?

#
LHJBFTW said 2 years, 3 months ago:

It has been generally agreed I think that if a driver is off the track and this has not been coursed by pressure from the following car that this is not an overtake but a change of position, eg vettle being passed by the whole field at the start of the British GP. So my point is this, to say in a similar circumstance whether a driver has overtaken or whether it is just a change of position will either require a judgement call or very strict and detailed rules. I don’t think that a set of rules can be made that will feel right in every circumstance which is why I think a judgement call will need to be made, whether it is by Keith, through discussion on F1F or a poll or in some other way. So once it is agreed that in some cases a judgement call will have to be made could we not agree that in all examples of grey areas a decision should be taken to decide whether something is an overtake or not, this includes first lap passing, passing then re-passing team order passing and passing coming out of the pit lane etc

Well that’s what I think so?

#
AndrewTanner said 2 years, 3 months ago:

Suits me LHJBFTW. I’m keen to get this nailed :D

#