F1 Fanatic crowdsource project: Overtaking statistics
2nd March 2011, 19:35 at 7:35 pm #162638
Should a pass on the first lap count?
I say yes. The argument is of course that this is more the field shuffling into position. Drivers could hold position, but we would lose half the field in less than a lap! That said, track position from the start is relative to driver, and to a lesser extent, car performance. Being slow off the line should not take away from someone who is quick off the line which ultimately ends in an over-take. It’s equal opportunities as far as i’m concerned.
Does a ‘pass in the pits’ count as overtaking? I say no. This is not directly related to driver skill, at least not when it comes to defending track position. You could argue perhaps the pitting driver could look after his tyres more or be wary of chipping his aero, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he wouldn’t be able defend if he was still out on the track.
If a driver is passed then re-passes in a single lap, does that count as two passes (one by each driver) or none? I say this counts as two over-takes, one for each driver. If we are faced with a situation this year where there is some real jostling for position (i’m thinking McLaren at Istanbul 2010 post-RBR disaster) there is no way we could count (or not count as the case may be) that wonderful situation as an over-taking free zone!
So I agree with Keith on 2/3 points.
It’s basically defining the difference between relative track position and over-taking in a defensive/attacking mindset.2nd March 2011, 20:18 at 8:18 pm #162639
Juan Pablo HeidfeldParticipant
I agree with the overall feel of the answers so far. Passes after, say, about 4-5 corners are legit, but before that I don’t think.
What do people think about passing someone while on tyres clearly more suited to the conditions – think Heidfeld and Alonso Spa 2008…
I think they should count but this could be an interesting one.2nd March 2011, 22:57 at 10:57 pm #162640
I think that might be getting a bit heavy Paco Ramirez, personally. With that way of thinking it’s difficult to know where to stop.2nd March 2011, 23:02 at 11:02 pm #162641
But he has a point – what if a driver has mistimed changing from slicks to inters?
He’ll be all over the place while otehrs with the right tyres on will sail by. Are they overtaking?2nd March 2011, 23:48 at 11:48 pm #162642
Actually, thinking about it a bit more, I think maybe we’re not considering the third question in enough detail. In some cases, eg Turkey 2010 when the McLarens swapped twice in a few corners (albeit over two separate laps), they are clearly proper passing moves which ought to be counted.
However, in some cases, there is more of a grey area. I can’t think of any real life examples off the top of my head, so here’s a hypothetical example: car A makes a move on car B into Turn 1. The two cars exit the corner and run down the following straight side by side, though with car A a nose in front he has technically passed car B. Then, into Turn 2, car B slips back in front.
I would class that as one attempted pass and one successful defence, rather than two overtakes. But this is very complicated. Perhaps when we determine what constitutes a pass we can send our theory to the Oxford English Dictionary…3rd March 2011, 0:13 at 12:13 am #162643
here’s my answers-
* Should a pass on the first lap count? NO
* Does a ‘pass in the pits’ count as overtaking? NO
* If a driver is passed then re-passes in a single lap, does that count as two passes (one by each driver) or none? TWO PASSES
(if a driver uses the adjustable rear wing to breeze past someone? NOOOOO)3rd March 2011, 0:22 at 12:22 am #162644
Don’t forget, you also have to determine when an overtaking move has been completed. Keith mentioned briefly that we might have to count multiple overtakes in a lap. However, what happens when cars go through multiple corners side by side? For instance, the final three corners of Turkey have seen cars get in front, then behind and then back in front again, but do each of those count as an overtake? Or is it simply one overtake? Could it be determined simply by how far ahead one car is (halfway down the length of the car, fully beyond, a carlength behind?)? Or should it be determined by the amount of time which one car is farther ahead than another?
There’s a lot of gray areas in this that need to be neatly and succinctly defined.3rd March 2011, 0:31 at 12:31 am #162645
I guess the success of over-taking on a series of corners is determined by who has the best line coming out of it. I would say that swapping of track position so quickly in the case JoeyPoey’s arguement would be down to when one driver has clearly over-taken due to a sufficient advantage coming out of the corner.
This means we have to also define what over-taking means, not just where/when it’s occurring!3rd March 2011, 0:35 at 12:35 am #162646
The problem with that is that is still a subjective definition. It’s probably best to deal with concrete facts and not judgment calls since this is going to be a statistics thing.3rd March 2011, 0:36 at 12:36 am #162647
In response to Guy, it’s a fair point. But I wouldn’t even say that cars on entirely different types of tyre (not just compound) are comparable enough to put any substance in an over-take. You might as well blue flag the slower of the two and the driver at the disadvantage will know that all too well. But yet again it boils down to how much you take into consideration a drivers snap-decision tyre choice and if having that tactical advantage at your disposal is something worth rewarding? Sometimes, perhaps it is, but how much of it is a team decision taken on the pit-wall?3rd March 2011, 0:38 at 12:38 am #162648
Sorry JoeyPoey, I should have been more clear. When I said it depends on which driver has the better line, that’s assuming that having that better line coming out of a corner will result in an advantage in track position, an over-take. Basically i’m saying that sometimes it’s wiser to hang back going into one turn on a chicane knowing that you might have an advantage going into the next turn of the same chicane.3rd March 2011, 1:39 at 1:39 am #162649
i agree with what you said:
3. Yes – 2
but its confusing as to what actually constitutes a “pass”. is it having a nose ahead?, is it being side by side?, is it leading out of a corner?
My thought is that only 1 pass (each) can be done per corner.. this saves the grey area of people edging in front under braking, then dropping back, then jumping ahead again (especially in the wet).
it could also be counted as; “as soon as car 2’s back wheel is ahead of car 1’s front wheel, its a pass”.
These things won’t come up often, if at all.. but if it does, at least you have a science to working it out3rd March 2011, 2:53 at 2:53 am #162650
1. Yes, because getting a good start is mainly done by the driver and getting into a good position to gain postions in the pack is also a case of putting yourself in the right place.
2. No no no
3. Definitly two passes.3rd March 2011, 8:03 at 8:03 am #162651
I’d like to help! I would define overtaking as:
1) Not off of the start line. Once you’ve passed the first mini-sector (like a sequence of corners), it’s legit. After all, you may have just passed someone and are now onto someone else.
2) NOOOOOOOOOOOO. However if someone is coming out of the pits and is behind the other driver, but makes a move stick, I think that should count.
3) Re-passes should only count as an extra one if it is as if the guy re-passing was the original chasing driver. if a driver passes someone but sacrifices the line and they other guy re-passes him because of it, I would count that as a failed overtake. But if there’s some overtaking where the guys both get back onto the proper racing line and there’s some slipstreaming, that counts as two to me (so we get a bit of a compromise here, 0 instead of 1 in some cases, 2 instead of 1 in others)3rd March 2011, 8:23 at 8:23 am #162652
So, on re-passes, how many overtaking moves did we see between Hamilton and Petrov at Malaysia last year?
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