F1 Fanatic crowdsource project: Overtaking statistics
7th March 2011, 12:17 at 12:17 pm #162683
I like Hare’s idea. Just have every kind of overtake and it’s up to you to choose which ones you include.7th March 2011, 13:25 at 1:25 pm #162684
What do you reckon to Hare’s suggestion, Keith?7th March 2011, 13:48 at 1:48 pm #162685
There is a reason many non – fans choose to watch only the first lap or so – that’s when all the overtaking happens! Categorising it is clearly the most sensible option. And what about after a safety car has left the track? The cars have been artificially bunched but are not in the vulnerable stationary positions of a race start. Thinking caps on!7th March 2011, 13:54 at 1:54 pm #162686
I would say that any over-takes immediately after a saftey car period are valid over-taking moves…unless of course there is an off where the driver hasn’t been pressured into it ;) It requires a degree of skill in itself, much like a race start, to not only attack a position but defend your own, given the close proximity of the cars.7th March 2011, 14:15 at 2:15 pm #162687
But a driver would consider it a gift to have the guy infront of him by 30 seconds suddenly planted right infront of him by a safety car incident. I’d argue an overtake in that situation is more artificial than off the start line in some instances.7th March 2011, 14:23 at 2:23 pm #162688
With my point really being if there’s a separate category for first lap overtakes in comparison to rest of race, then shouldn’t a safety car restart be given the same treatment? I think so :)8th March 2011, 0:51 at 12:51 am #162689
I agree with Hare’s idea of classifying different types of overtakes. With an interactive graph, we could pick and choose what types of overtakes we want to view…8th March 2011, 8:02 at 8:02 am #162690
Yea, it’s a gift but having someone on your backside yourself levels it out a little?8th March 2011, 23:03 at 11:03 pm #162691
I see where Hare’s going with his idea but I have a couple of reservations.
As I said in my second comment the purpose here is “to build up an accurate picture of how much real, on-track overtaking goes on in a race.”
So what we’re looking for is what Hare calls a “Type C” pass – ‘proper’ on-track overtaking.
I think defining four different types of pass and attempting to count all those up is going to make this a lot more complicated.
At the very least, let’s start off with the more conservative aim of identifying all the ‘Type C’ passes in each race.
Then, if that’s proving very quick and easy, we can expand the analysis and include the many other forms of position change that Hare’s idea would include.
Based on your responses I’d suggest defining a ‘pass’ as being a change of position which:
* Does not take place on the first lap
* Does not happen because one of the cars involved has pitted
* Does not happen because one of the cars has gone off the track
* Is not immediately followed by a ‘re-pass’
I think we should filter out first lap passes because the standing start means everyone has a better chance of overtaking the car in front. By the end of the first lap the field has generally strung out and that’s when we find out if ‘real overtaking’ is possible.
My proposal is we start off by analysing and deciding what counts as a real pass by these terms. Once we’ve got that process running smoothly we can look at expanding it along the lines Hare suggests.9th March 2011, 22:16 at 10:16 pm #162692
I’m a strong advocate for including first lap passes, really think they should be included. Anyone else?9th March 2011, 22:53 at 10:53 pm #162693
Me too. First lap passes are skill. If we collect these stats I’m sure we’ll get to see that some drivers are better starters than others and vice-versa. The other thing is, they’re probably the easiest to record because more cars are in the camera shots!
The only passes that shouldn’t be counted are team orders, pit stops, passes due to an off or mechanical failure and passes due to a mistake. If whether a driver has made a mistake or not is hard to judge, have a vote to see what the general concensus is, if after the vote there still isn’t a clear idea, then automatically classify it as a pass. I’d say the vote has to get 60% agreement to be conclusive.
What does everybody think to that?10th March 2011, 0:03 at 12:03 am #162694
I’m with the above two posters on this one, first lap overtakes, even first corner overtakes should be counted IMO. Quite often the outcome of a whole race can depend on getting past someone in front of you straight off the line, there’ll even be times where your race strategy can depend on it. Sure the circumstances are different to going at 200mph on a straight after 10 laps – but it still requires skill, and you still have to get past the guy, whether hes going slower or not – surely more difficult on a crowded grid then when he’s the only guy around?
But that’s just my opinion. It’s good to hear others opinions are so different.10th March 2011, 7:55 at 7:55 am #162695
I think there are enough of us passionate and sensible enough to have a quick, official F1F poll post-race for any dubious over-takes.
I know Keith is eager to nail the criteria but at least alot of us agree on holding a vote where needed…probably more so than agreeing on what constitutes an over-take!10th March 2011, 20:24 at 8:24 pm #162697
I fully agree with and support what Keith proposes. Let us first have a go at really identifying the real competative passes (Hare Cs, try to say that out loud ;-)) .
I think we will have a tough nut to crack to get that right with the parameters mentinoned by Keith (what is immediately … – was it Hamilton-Petrov 3 times?)
For the right after Safety car passes, I would say we would have to put them somewhere in line with the 1st lap passes taking place after the first corners as the field is not spaced out. But that will be really hard to define and follow in reality.11th March 2011, 0:54 at 12:54 am #162698
- I think that first lap passes should be included but only after the first few corners (i.e. not off the line passes)
– pass in the pits shouldn’t count
– pass then repass should count as two
– passes because the car has gone off the track shouldn’t count
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