Hamilton in Spain vs Vettel in Abu Dhabi – Which was better? (58 posts)

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 7 months, 2 weeks ago:

    @freelittlebirds

    we ALL know two drivers who can deliver very quick laps in twitchy cars

    they’d be even quicker if they stopped that. Fact.

    I don’t buy the fact that the Red Bull is being driven at 99%. I think it’s being driven at 95%

    Simple answer: You don’t know, I don’t know. Nobody except the driver knows.

    You have to remember this is a car formula where a blink of an eye is the difference between P1 and P4 in qualifying. (the average human blink is 0.3 seconds). No team can afford to have a driver who drives at 95%.

    You either dislike, or are not convinced by, Vettel. I get it. But at the same time, the Red Bull guys are not idiots. If they had a driver who wasn’t one of the top of the top, they wouldn’t hesitate to drop him. Look how readily they’ve dropped so many – Klien, Doornbos, Liuzzi, Speed, Buemi, Alguersuari, Bourdais…

    But the fact is that despite past advances from Button, Hamilton and Alonso, they have stuck to their guns (in terms of staying with Vettel). So for whatever reason, obviously, there are qualities which they feel (rightly or wrongly so) that makes Vettel a better choice.

    There are times when he’s made Webber look downright slow (and yes, there are also times when HE hasn’t been able to hold a candle to Webber, such as Monaco this year) – and slow is not a word you would associate with Webber. Sure he’s not the most mistake-free driver, nor the most consistent in terms of consistently putting in top drives, but in situations such as qualifying, slow is never a word you would associate with him. A slow driver wouldn’t be able to get that Jaguar in 03/04 onto the front row, nor lap his own teammate (Rosberg, who is no Monaco slouch) in 2006 Monaco.

  • Profile picture of Michael Michael said 7 months, 2 weeks ago:

    @raymondu999 how would those 2 drivers know the limit of the car and tires which change with every lap if they didn’t cross the line a few times? If you’re straddling the line, you will eventually cross it.

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 7 months, 2 weeks ago:

    @freelittlebirds

    how would those 2 drivers know the limit of the car and tires which change with every lap if they didn’t cross the line a few times?

    Ah… now we’re talking! The answer is “feel.” All drivers drive, according to “feel.” The difference is HOW the drivers get their feel.

    At the very basic level, a driver is like a calculator – but it all happens subconsciously and instinctively. They receive a set of sensations, which their brain instinctively processes, and this tells them whether or not they’re on the limit.

    That’s a very basic explanation.

    The difference which I said above, really, lies somewhat in the driver’s habits. Some drivers build up to it – others build down to it. Take the example of Button and Hamilton. Button will take time to get a rhythm, then slowly keep on increasing, until his spine senses that the car is moving around slightly too much, and backs off. A Lewis would, in his own words, “you try to go flat out first. Then if you go off – you back off. If you still go off – you back off a bit more. Eventually you reach the limit.” I think it’s quite clear which is which.

    Now you’re absolutely right that because track conditions change – due to temperatures, rubbering in, cars change – due to fuel loads, temperatures, tyre state (I’m going to include the tyre as part of the car in this post – because for that moment in time, the tyres are basically a part on the car). Weather complicates things further if moisture and precipitation is involved. A car that takes Turn X on Circuit Y at 160kph, might only be able to take it at 155kph the next lap. Absolutely true.

    But while the limit changes – the SENSATION of the limit does not. Try doing some track time, and you’ll know what I mean. (Disclaimer – as I’ve said before, I’ve never had kart time, and karts are a whole different beast in terms of vehicle dynamics, so I bow down to any kart knowledge anyone else has)

    The car would feel slower when taking the corner the second time at 155kph, but the sensations in terms of the car’s responsiveness, rotation, and slip – would be, relatively speaking, the same to what the driver felt at 160kph the first time.

    Judgment also plays a big part. There are some aspects of driving a lap where you generally won’t feel that it’s too late until it IS too late. Braking is such an example. What you do is, basically, go instinctively based on experience – of past laps, and how the car behaved in the corners prior to that. That’s why you see a lot of a driver outbraking themselves, or braking cautiously, early on – and only really being confident when they’re finally back in a good rhythm.

    Lewis in Abu Dhabi was a good example. His restart lap he was obviously a bit cautious, and the lap after that, he decided that he should push X amount more into the braking zone at 8 – and his judgment on that particular occasion was wrong.

    As a driver develops – even a beginner – what they’ll develop is a map of reactions – in other words, when I feel X happening, I do Y. This becomes very instinctive.

    Obviously in a case where a driver is trying that little bit more lap after lap – they’re human, and so they’re prone to mistakes too.

    But note that not all drivers are constantly straddling 100%, especially in a race situation. A driver such as Button often drives at a constant 99.9% (arbitrary number) – he’s a bit like Jackie Stewart in that sense, driving at 9 tenths rather than 10 tenths – but he doesn’t push his luck with 100%, because he knows he’s human and doesn’t want to risk losing time by overstepping the limit. But because he gets so comfortable with a rhythm of pushing 9 tenths, he can be very consistent. Take a look at data from India 2011 and you’ll see what I mean. It was just a masterclass in consistency as he strung something like 12 laps all within 5 hundredths of one another. Or take a look at Melbourne 2010 – Button was just taking his time and doing his thing, with a beautifully balanced rhythm – and his 52 lap stint on the option tyre was (almost, but not quite) an exercise in 156 green sectors on the timing board.

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 7 months, 2 weeks ago:

    I was looking for a video to post, and I just found it. Here. Wonderful wisdom from Sir Jackie:

    In the words of Sir Jackie again:

    Look at the driver’s hands on the steering wheel. Some of them are all over the place; everything’s an adventure. What you don’t need is a challenge; what you really want is an invitation. The Matra MS80 I drove to win the championship in 1969 was an invitation. I gave it time to do everything, and it let me do things I would not have been able to do had I been trying to keep up with a difficult animal. You want to lead a placid animal into a corner. If I overdid it under braking and it became too busy, suddenly I was trying to consume this business just to get the apex. But if everything is calm, on the way in I’d be thinking of the exit – not the apex.

    It’s sometimes difficult to make a young driver understand this, because he thinks all he’s got to do is drive it. When you get into F1, it’s a whole new package. Suddenly there’s not as much space between the exit of one corner and the entry to the next. You’re up through the box and you’re working the steering wheel and the buttons. You get to the next corner and you’re not prepared. It’s about being able to find time and create very subtle improvements that suddenly make the laptimes more consistent.

    Most of the current F1 drivers turn in far too fast; you can see it on TV. Vettel turns in microseconds slower, and so does Alonso. It’s only microseconds, but that little bit is taking all of the tensions within the car. It’s very simple, but there are no coaches to tell them that.

  • Profile picture of Michael Michael said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    First, I do agree with Sir Jackie that smoother can be better than harder. For instance, I’ve always enjoyed Roger’s smooth tennis style compared to Nadal’s and Djokovic’s hard tennis style. Nonetheless, smooth is not always better…

    @raymondu999 You do realize that Sir Jackie has questioned Vettel’s skills in the Red Bull? So have Alonso and Hamilton. So has Dave Hobbs many times as he praises the car more so than Vettel. So have tons of other people. I’m not a racer but I can spot the advantage the RB has over the other cars. I wish our arguments would take some speed off the Red Bull but that won’t happen:-)

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    @freelittlebirds Sir Jackie never *questioned* Vettel – he just said that Vettel won his titles in the quickest package, meaning people won’t remember him as a true great. Which nobody is denying. Vettel’s current 2 titles have been won with the best car in the field.

    Personally I don’t think that the RB this year has been (taking the entire season on balance) the out and out best car – I think it could be a close second – but certainly it is not the “undisputed speed king” of 2010 and 2011.

    Nobody is arguing against the notion that the Red Bull of late has been the quickest car. In Abu Dhabi in particular they weren’t the quickest (they were half a second off pole) but they weren’t slouches either. What is being debated here is not the car’s speed relative to the opposing cars – so let’s not make it about that.

    The point of contention is whether or not Sebastian is driving at the limit. You make the point that Seb very rarely makes corrections and seem to take this as a sign that he’s not on the limit. But this notion that corrections = limit is simply not correct. Ask anyone working in motorsport, past or present.

    In fact if you read the interview excerpt I pasted below the video – you’ll find that Sir Jackie goes out of his way to praise Alonso and Vettel’s driving:

    Most of the current F1 drivers turn in far too fast; you can see it on TV. Vettel turns in microseconds slower, and so does Alonso. It’s only microseconds, but that little bit is taking all of the tensions within the car. It’s very simple, but there are no coaches to tell them that.

  • Profile picture of Michael Michael said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    @raymondu999 corrections = limit because it is impossible to reach the real limit, not the perceived or Sir Jackie’s limit without crossing it at least once. If you can win a race without crossing the limit, then you haven’t pushed the car to its limit – you have simple driven within its limits especially when the characteristics of the car keep changing during the race. You have what 18 turns for 55 laps – that’s about 1,000 turns and you’re telling me that a driver will not make a single faux pas 1 out those 1,000 turns with each turn being totally different. I don’t buy it…

    We know Hamilton can and does push the car to its absolute maximum per lap and it shows when he’s driving – that’s why people love him. Every few turns, he does hit that limit. We know Alonso can come close to Hamilton and be a little more consistent.

    That’s my take. Now if a driver is so lucky that the car can be driven faster than other cars, off-track, on-track and passing inside or outside and is within its limits when it does as we’ve seen with the Red Bull.

    Why do you think Vettel is the most controversial 2 time (3 time maybe) WDC in F1? If he was SO good like Federer, surely we’d all see his greatness. Some drivers likes Giles Villeneuve never won the WDC yet people knew how good they were. I can even see it from small clips I’ve watched.

  • Profile picture of Bob Bob said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    One of Vettel’s specialities is being able to control his pace – we saw masterclasses of this at Suzuka and Buddh. When he starts on pole positon, he pushes it to the limit at the start so as to eke out that all-important DRS-immunity gap. Once he’s consolidated his lead, he backs off and measures his drive carefully so as to avoid costly mistakes. (Only then does he begin messing around and chasing the fastest lap for the heck of it)

    @raymondu999 – I do agree that frequent corrections are a sign of drivers overstepping the limit. Vettel’s style seems to have him hovering just below that limit.

    However, I think a key point to consider is that Vettel gets more “leeway” than, say, Alonso or Hamilton. One advantage of the RBR car platform is that, handling wise, it’s a lot more stable than the equivalent McLaren or Ferrari, owing to its aerodynamic efficiency. Vettel can push the envelop a lot further without overstepping it compared other drivers. Suppose Vettel and Hamilton are both driving at 99 arbitrary units of intensity. At that level, Hamilton may have surpassed his car’s threshold for stability, necessitating corrections. Whereas Vettel may still be within his car’s “comfort zone”, and thus is seen to make little, if any, corrections.

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    @bobthevulcan Sorry I missed your post – I was crafting my essay while you posted :P

    By 99 arbitrary units, are you talking about 99% of the car’s overall grip, or – for example, taking Corner X at 99kph?

  • Profile picture of Bob Bob said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    @raymondu999 – By 99 arbitrary units, I mean they are both putting the same amount of effort into their driving. With that same amount of effort, Hamilton may have gone beyond the limits of the McLaren, while Vettel may be driving within the limits of the Red Bull. Thus, Hamilton needs to make corrections, while Vettel doesn’t. Just a hypothesis of mine. What do you think?

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    @bobthevulcan in essence, carrying the same amount of speed through a corner, no? “effort” is just about as arbitrary you can get :P

    But it is true. If a car has more “grip” (a word I hate thanks to my tyred past) – then it obviously can carry more speed through a corner. If a McLaren takes Corner X at Y kph, then taking an HRT through Corner X at Y kph (assuming identical track conditions) is foolhardy. You’d probably need much more than a correction at that point.

    Or are you talking in terms of smoothness? For example Driver A might take 3 seconds to go from 0 lock to 90 degree lock, Driver B takes 2 seconds to go from 0 lock to 90 degree lock. (ie how “fast” you turn the wheel/hit the brakes/hit the throttle)

  • Profile picture of Michael Michael said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    @raymondu999 don’t get me wrong, I do see your point and thanks for writing the essay and explaining your point. I personally don’t agree with it based on what I’ve seen with the Red Bulls which don’t put a foot wrong. It doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong – it’s just an opinion and you have defended yours valliantly, probably better than Vettel could have outside his car:-)

    I do actually believe that as Bob suggested there’s more performance/grip/leeway – whatever you want to call it – in the Red Bull and that’s perhaps why we see Vettel stay within limits.

  • Profile picture of the_sigman the_sigman said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    ΗΑΜ: 4
    VET: 3
    If I counted correctly.

  • Profile picture of Bob Bob said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    @raymondu999

    If a car has more “grip” (a word I hate thanks to my tyred past) – then it obviously can carry more speed through a corner. If a McLaren takes Corner X at Y kph, then taking an HRT through Corner X at Y kph (assuming identical track conditions) is foolhardy. You’d probably need much more than a correction at that point.

    Exactly. In this case, if the McLaren and the Red Bull both take Corner X at Y kph, Hamilton in the McLaren is likely to be making more corrections than Vettel in the Red Bull, by virtue of the RB8′s aerodynamics and stability advantage over the MP4-27.

  • Profile picture of Garns Garns said 7 months, 1 week ago:

    To be honest these kind of arguements have always pissed me off. “Is it the car or the driver??” Who gives a shit.

    Old school- Senna in 1993 in a car that was shit and Prost has a car I could drive to the title- is Prost a “lucky driver”?? No. Was Senna the best driver in 1988 with the the best car- YES!!

    Was Shu the best driver from 1995 – 2003?? Probably- but Mika was VERY close? Absolutley!

    Is Fernando the best driver of this era? YES!! Will he always win? No!!

    As said in many previous posts I am a MASSIVE Mark Webber fan, but fact is Seb will be faster in the same machinery. To quote Metallica- Sad but true. So while never being a Seb fan, and loving Fernando’s talent I really fell it hard that so many have bagged Vettel as not a ‘champion’ or if so because of Newey.

    ALL our hero’s, no matter who they’re, or have been, have won the F1 drivers world championship for ONE reason- a good (or great) driver in a great (or good) car. But most are great. Seb will be 3 x champion (but I am going for Fez) but fact is we will have to rate him against the others. Seems F1F fans will rate him on the lower end this (and I will too) but 3 X CHAMP?? Harsh to bag I think.

    Seems Giles who never won one is higher regarder that Seb. I wont have to show I am a Senna fan to say if he didnt go on 1 May 94 he would have had 7, and Micheal just one- just an opinion of course………………………………………

    Also while I am at it, why is Lewis held in so high regard? Champ in 2008 and complained since. So good or overrated? Fast? yes! An 3 X WDC? He wont be. Perez will win before he does IMO.

    Garns

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